Scotland's number 10 - anyone got a clue?

It probably isn't hyperbole to suggest that the selection of Scotland's 10 for the world cup will go a long way to decide how successful we are. In my mind every other position has a few front runners and I'd generally be happy whoever gets picked, although perhaps not the back row (which has been debated to death!).

Every successful rugby nation has a number one 10.  Someone who is pretty much an automatic pick that leads the team forward and wins them games.

A year away from the world cup and Scotland still don't have a nailed down starter at 10.  Many have had a shot, none have kept the shirt just yet.

So who are the options?

Front runners

Duncan Weir



Age - 23
Caps - 15
Starts - 10
Tries - 1
Conversions - 4
Penalties - 6
Drop goals - 1 (and what a drop goal it was!)

Strengths - Strong kicking game, relatively consistent goal kicker.

Weaknesses - Suspect defence. Very lateral in attack. Prone to the odd lapse in concentration and trying to force things (6N game vs France).

Verdict - This time last year Weir was my choice for the 10 shirt. Last season however he had a very poor season with Scotland.  He seemed to have regressed and was very shaky in possession, made worse by several high profile mistakes.  He's got competition at Glasgow now with Finn Russell but hopefully that will spur him on to raise his game back to the standards of 2 seasons ago.


Ruaridh Jackson



Age - 26
Caps - 25
Starts - 14
Tries - 0
Conversions - 3
Penalties - 2
Drop goals - 2

Strengths - Strong running game, the most creative 10 at our disposal

Weaknesses - Frustratingly inconsistent.  He can be MOTM one game and a liability the next.  Inconsistent goal kicker. Floats in and out of games.

Verdict - the most experienced 10 at our disposal, and he has had plenty chances with Scotland.  The fact that he's only taken 5 kicks at goal in his 25 caps shows how little he's trusted with the boot at that level! The fact that he has had so many chances yet failed to grasp the 10 shirt long term suggests he may never will, but he is only 26 and hopefully his time at Wasps (who look very strong this year) will teach him better consistency.


Up and coming youngsters

Finn Russell




Age - 22
Caps - 2
Starts - 2
Tries - 0
Conversions - 0
Penalties - 0
Drop goals - 0

Strengths - Good all rounder.  Calm under pressure and a wise head on a youthful body. Good all-round skillset.

Weaknesses - Lightweight for international level, but that will improve with time. Very inexperienced. Unproven.

Verdict - Russell was an absolute revelation for Glasgow last year, earning the 10 shirt for all the high profile games.  He brings a maturity and cool head that none of the other options have shown, and has a very good all-round skillset.  We have been here before though with a young 10 many, many times, so we really need to see him playing again this season to see how he is developing. Very exciting prospect, but is he too inexperienced to rely on with only 10 international games left until the WC?


Tom Heathocoat



Age - 22
Caps - 3
Starts - 2
Tries - 0
Conversions - 0
Penalties - 0
Drop goals - 0

Strengths - Solid player, suitable for a 10 many rugby game plan. Very good goal kicker

Weaknesses - Inexperienced. Unproven. Questionmarks over his all-round skillset.

Verdict - He's not had the best of starts to his rugby career - frozen out at Bath, thrown into the Lions den for his first cap in the infamous capitulation against Tonga where he was asked to kick the winning penalty (which he missed).  He's got a new start now at Edinburgh and will hopefully build on his early career promise.  He has had a solid if spectacular start for Edinburgh, but his goal kicking has been excellent.


Dark Horses


Greig Tonks



Age - 25
Caps - 2
Starts - 1
Tries - 0
Conversions - 0
Penalties - 0
Drop goals - 0

Strengths - Howitzer of a boot, strong defence, pace of a fullback so can make breaks

Weaknesses - Inexperienced at 10 (only played 10 games there recently), unproven goal kicker.

Verdict - Going to be a big season for Tonks - I think he will make a very good 10, but he needs to get regular gametime there to prove it.  In the run of games he had for Edinburgh last season I was very impressed with him, and he played a key role in some big wins against Gloucester and Perpignan. I think he basic skills are very strong, he just needs to show he can run a game at 10.


Peter Horne



Age - 25
Caps - 5
Starts - 3
Tries - 0
Conversions - 0
Penalties - 0
Drop goals - 0

Strengths - A good running 10.  Good distribution

Weaknesses - Lightweight in defence.  Inconsistent kicking game and goal kicker. Inexperienced at 10.

Verdict - Could be included in the WC squad for his versatility, but the jury is still out as to what his best position is. If you want a fast tempo, open game plan then this man ticks a lot of boxes.  Again question marks on his game management at 10 and tactical kicking.


So who will get the 10 shirt then? One things for sure - with 10 games left (3 of which are friendlies) - Cotter needs to decide very soon on his first choice and get them playing for Scotland as much as possible.

p.s. I've deliberately not included Hogg

Personally I'd be delighted if Russell and Tonks have a strong season and become our incumbent pairing for the world cup. Both in the short time I've seen them at 10 have shown more composure and good basic all-round skills than I've ever seen from Weir and Jackson (although not at the highest level yet).

In my mind Jackson has had many chances and has just not convinced.  Weir regressed last season at an alarming rate and has a tough season ahead of him to convince that he really is an international 10.

The problem with Russell and Tonks is that they are very inexperience at 10, never mind at international level! Russell could well get 2nd season syndrome and not push on as we'd hope, and Tonks may yet prove that he isn't the long term answer at 10 and move back to fullback.

The other thing to bear in mind is goal kicking - I'd say Russell and Heathcoat are the best goal kickers, with Weir close behind.  If there is doubts on our 10's goal kicking then I suspect he'll pick Laidlaw at 9, with the well-known disadvantages that he brings in terms of speed around the breakdown. If we have more confidence in our 10's kicking then Cusiter can bring the zip and speedy service that we need.

I just think it is too early to tell yet - hopefully by the time the AIs come along all of the front runners have had plenty gametime so Cotter has something to go on when trying to make the decision.

Good post but despite your expert analysis it just highlights the fact that nobody has a bleeding clue!

It's basically just a one season shoot off now between the 6 of them. Think the deciding factor for our number one needs to be consistency. Hopefully one of them can keep a steady level of performance in the 1st half of the season and nail down the spot by the 6 nations. Would personally still like Jackson in as a 2nd/3rd choice. That wildcard factor on the bench could come in handy - especially given the fact we probably wont be cruising home in the last 20 minutes of most games.

Or how about take the 6 of them and host a gladiator style tournament with points allocated for each test?? We could have games such as a goal kicking match, pass the ball through the tyre, and a one on one tackling exercise where we get our back row candidates to run at each one and see how many they can tackle. Points for the last one could be awarded on factors such as: yards lost, surface area of the stain on their underpants and decibel levels of the crowds laughter.
I reckon we could sell this to Simon Cowell and make a sackload of cash at the same time.

I think it is as much about a 9-10 combination as the 10 on its own.

A solid kicking 10 can function with a slow predictable 9; whereas a running 10 would struggle.  If your 9 is relatively unpredictable, or even just offers a quicker service, he keeps the opposition back row and to an extent centres away from the 10, who has more scope.

I think we should be looking to get Hoggs place kicking up to international class to stop us 'having to' play Laidlaw, as for my money Cuisiter is the 9 who can free up time and space for a playmaking 10.

Pity we can't use the Olympic 7's route to naturalise Nico!

I think it would be difficult for anyone to predict which three will travel with the world cup squad, let alone who will become the incumbent, at this stage. We've got less than a year to figure out the answers - perhaps more interestingly is how do we maximise the chances of finding the right players? Do they get all the game time in the AIs and the 6Ns? Do clubs get encouraged to play players for international selection reasons?

Is the answer then that we don't have a first choice 10, and merely pick a player based on the opposition, but focus on a group of 2 or 3 over the next year so that there is some consistency?

Let's face it we don't have a Jonny Sexton or Aaron Cruden who are world class in most aspects of play - we have players who are good in some areas but poor in others.

Personally I would prefer someone to have nailed down the 10 shirt, as I think we need consistency in selection and game plan.

Realistically however I just can't see one player standing out for both club and country over the coming months.

It's a toughy, but lets be honest we used to be sweating over Phil Godman and Dan Parks.

To have all of these different styles to pick from is a blessing. Personally I see Russell as the front runner. He played pretty well in the Summer games.

Jackson might as others have pointed out become a more rounded player under Le Hasque's guidance at Wasps.

Based on nothing more than the short time I've seen them, I would have to agree with RDW, I would like Tonks and Russell to be our 10s going to the RWC.

I know its early days for both of them, but last season Russell looked the business for Glasgow and Tonks played really well for us.

The thing with the two from last year is that they have been tried and generally found not to be up to it. Weir last season had a shocker in the 6 nations. Not saying he can't get better as he's still young, but at international level so far he's not impressed. Jackson is our most experienced 10, by now he should have nailed that spot as his own, sadly inconsistency is his major issue.

If Tonks and Russell have a good campaign this year with their clubs, then I would like one of them to be our preferred 10, only real minus points against them is their inexperience at test level.

Or I guess we play the best suited 9 & 10 combo. Guessing that our 9s are likely to be Laidlaw and Cusiter*.

*Unless Pyrgos, SH-C, Hart or Kennedy have an amazing season, but it seems unlikely they woudl displace Laidlaw and Cus at this stage.

For me I would say it is between Finn Russell, Tom Heathcote and Greig Tonks.
Having seen the type of that Cotter liked to use at Clermont I would say those 3 fit the mould more than Weir and Jackson do. Horne I am unsure about as a 10, very good at opening games up but his kicking from hand still isn't the best tactically.
Hopefully Russell kicks on further this season as I would say he is the best all rounded 10 as he has a mix of a good kicking, running and passing game and is good in defence.
Heathcote is a similar type player but not shown it as much recently which i think is mostly down to a lack of confidence after being frozen out at Bath. Give him a run of games at Edinburgh and I think we will see just how talented this guy is.
Tonks could certainly do well at 10 and think he probably will go to the world cup as 10/15 cover. His goal kicking is actually pretty good and used to be the main kicker for the Northampton Saints "A" team and was up in the high 70s low 80s success rate.
Will be interesting to see at Edinburgh who gets the more game time between Heathcote and Tonks this season, one solution to play both is to have Heathcote at 10 and Tonks at 12.
Tonks has played there a fair bit for Northampton there as well and with Scott being out for a while yet I would prefer Tonks to Strauss there.

Wait for the vote first, and then think about a rival Black door in the north.

Tom Heathcote was immense at Bath but has been subject to very bad luck...Firstly when he made it into the first team he was hands down better than Stephen Donald but because Donald was the marquee signing and we were spending alot of money on him he was played over Tom and played alot worse.

Then Tom became our full time 10 and did a great job, great skills reliable boot and was really developing, then daddy ford was signed and brought his son in and again Mcheathcote was forced into the number 2 position. Now Ford is better than Tom in some aspects but tom was better than George in kicking and comparable in others but was never ever given a chance to compete for the jersey.

Give this lad a chance and he should be number 1.

Make up your mind Chris... 1, 2 or 10?

only schalk brits or maybe tommy youngs could cover those three slots.

Has Tonks had the requisite minutes playing at 10 in the Pro12 to satisfy our beloved fES? For those that have forgotten, the requirement is 4,362,897,345 hours of play

Could always go shopping abroad. Why should we break the habit of a lifetime right?

Why not demetri Catrakilis? 25 now and probably dawning on him that he will never be capped/only be capped if there is an almighty butchers bill.

Starting 10 for the stormers.... a very good player but probably won't get a bok cap or at best more than 5 caps.

He has Pollard, Goosen, Lambie all the same age and all superior (just).

For any nation looking to pinch the talent I think he's the best around (incl. Anscombe for instance).

I suppose where Tonks differed from the messiah is that he has played Pro12 rugby for a few seasons now.

Where that argument collapses is Edinburgh still don't know themselves where to play him.

That uncertainty will surely have a knock-on effect on his international chances.

Despite this I would be happier with him at 10 as opposed to Weir who IMO like Jackson just doesn't seem to cut the mustard at test level.

Tonks is perhaps the best of the lot but he needs time.

Weir - what happened to the player wo masterminded the demolition of the Saxons a cou-ple of years ago?

Jackson - we know who he is and he is not the answer unless he develops further downsouth

we have plenty of talent - but not the experience

Jacko now injured but doing ok i think. We desperately need a relaible place kicker so we can dispense with Laidlaw (unless he has been banned from kicking at Glaws and has some speed tomhis service)
Weir doesnt look fit to me although at least he nailed his kicks at the weekend - more butter than meatball.

Laidlaw is goal kicker for Gloucester over James hook and Billy Twelvetrees, so he's obviously held in high regard.

Neither Jacko nor Meatball, for the reasons discussed above, look like being our 10 going into the World Cup. Let's face it, neither of them would be considered first choice for Glasgow at the moment. So, do we have enough matches between now and then to settle in two or three players? For sure we'll need at least two who have some experience before the tournament begins. And don't get me started on Fraser Brown, Gray jr, Peter Horne, Finn Russell and of course Bluto. All of whom (except Bluto) need to play as much as possible before WC begins, but do we have enough games?
On another note; Henners Piecrust kicked very well for Glasgow at Cardiff which if he keeps it up may edge him ahead of Laidlaw for the 9 berth.

Good wee piece here RDW,

For me weir and Russell are the front runners and it will depend who Townsend picks, everyone seems to forget that weir is only 23 because he has been around so long. Russell looks to be the long term answer however next year could just be too early for the pressure games and like tommy allen for Italy he will be targeted defensively.

Weir has the nerve as shown in Rome and just needs consistent game time with a Dunbar and Bennett/Scott combination so he can release their attacking potential. So I would make him favourite.

Out of the others I would put them in this order:
Horne (great player but would need another kicker in the team)
Heathcote (will come good and very solid but would struggle to get backs going against a top defence)
Jackson (great club player but I am afraid he doesn't have the nerve to play at international level and be consistent )
Tonks (make shift 10 who could be included more as a utility player but is far too inexperienced at 10 and as a kicker, and I am still adamant he is possibly our best 15  

I know most people won't agree with this but as previously mentioned It is good to have some competition again unlike 03/07.

Interesting debate on the 9s, it was nice to see 4 of the AP teams starting with scottish 9s at the weekend. One outside shot for the 9 jersey is scott steele who I think will be competing with glashan and sam h-c for the scrum half role over the next decade. He is keeping a lion out the team (o'leary) at Irish and has the all round game to be an international.

4 APs teams starting Scottish scrum halfs?
Blair ...Newcastle
Laidlaw ..Glaws
Cuss... Sale

Go on..embarass me..who am I forgetting?

Argy, he even told you in his post mate. Scott Steele at London Irish.

Where is that i'll get me coat emoticon.... Cheers EWT.

Now the good thing about being a mod or admin is you can delete your own posts when you make a howler before anyone sees it!

In my attempt to put off actually doing any work this morning, I’ve been wasting spending my time wisely, checking out some AP fans forums.  Mostly checking out how Scottish players got on from a fans perspective.  Steele apparently was pretty decent against Falcons.  Didn’t see the game myself but nice if he’s doing well.

Anyway the reason for this post is I decided to have a look at the falcons board, and there are a surprisingly high number of positive comments about Good Godman.  Could he be a (massive) outside bet for the 10 spot?.....I really hope not, but if he's actually playing well then he could potentially be added to the list, maybe as a dark dark (almost pitch black) horse.

No bother Argy, happens to the best of us.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Now the good thing about being a mod or admin is you can delete your own posts when you make a howler before anyone sees it!

Been off the boards for a while/its the performance not the result/its just a number on the back of a shirt etc etc ..

Not sure I would have even spotted it even had I the all seeing eye powers of moderatorship...

EWT Spoons wrote:In my attempt to put off actually doing any work this morning, I’ve been wasting spending my time wisely, checking out some AP fans forums.  Mostly checking out how Scottish players got on from a fans perspective.  Steele apparently was pretty decent against Falcons.  Didn’t see the game myself but nice if he’s doing well.

Anyway the reason for this post is I decided to have a look at the falcons board, and there are a surprisingly high number of positive comments about Good Godman.  Could he be a (massive) outside bet for the 10 spot?.....I really hope not, but if he's actually playing well then he could potentially be added to the list, maybe as a dark dark (almost pitch black) horse.

I found the Godman comments hard to believe - you'll be laughed off the forum if you suggest that on the Newcastle thread on here! They think he's hopeless.

I know, which is why I found the comments so surprising. I've not been following Newcastle, at all really, so I have no idea how he's actually playing, but from his time at Edinburgh and Scotland I would be more inclined to beleive the chat on these boards.

EWT Spoons wrote:In my attempt to put off actually doing any work this morning, I’ve been wasting spending my time wisely, checking out some AP fans forums.  Mostly checking out how Scottish players got on from a fans perspective.  Steele apparently was pretty decent against Falcons.  Didn’t see the game myself but nice if he’s doing well.

Anyway the reason for this post is I decided to have a look at the falcons board, and there are a surprisingly high number of positive comments about Good Godman.  Could he be a (massive) outside bet for the 10 spot?.....I really hope not, but if he's actually playing well then he could potentially be added to the list, maybe as a dark dark (almost pitch black) horse.

On that note, Spoons, you'll probs have read that Moray Low isn't making a huge impression at Chiefs - he's being kept out of the starting tighthead berth by Tomas Francis, who was playing for Doncaster in the Championship last year, and he hasn't looked particularly solid when he's subbed on. Bit disappointing so far tbh

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Has Tonks had the requisite minutes playing at 10 in the Pro12 to satisfy our beloved fES?  For those that have forgotten, the requirement is 4,362,897,345 hours of play

No, he hasn't. He was in line to start at 10 this season but unfortunately injury has robbed him of the chance of a run of games. He's looked promising in each game he's played, but not enough yet for international rugby.

I've liked the Horne, Dunbar and Bennett combination this season so far, and would probably give them a shot in the AIs with Laidlaw at 9 and Cusiter and Jackson on the bench.

EWT Spoons wrote:I know, which is why I found the comments so surprising.  I've not been following Newcastle, at all really, so I have no idea how he's actually playing, but from his time at Edinburgh and Scotland I would be more inclined to beleive the chat on these boards.

Godman is barely championship class lads, he'll be nowhere near your Int side I can promise you that.

He played ok (for his standard) against Irish but is getting lauded for his bravery in defence rather than actual 10 play. He's still doing his trademark "well advertised reverse pass" as a standard attack method.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:I know, which is why I found the comments so surprising.  I've not been following Newcastle, at all really, so I have no idea how he's actually playing, but from his time at Edinburgh and Scotland I would be more inclined to beleive the chat on these boards.

Godman is barely championship class lads, he'll be nowhere near your Int side I can promise you that.

He played ok (for his standard) against Irish but is getting lauded for his bravery in defence rather than actual 10 play. He's still doing his trademark "well advertised reverse pass" as a standard attack method.

What you clearly don't get, Sarge, is that its bound to come off eventually if he only tries it enough!!

It's really painful to watch, I see it coming about 5 secs before he does it. The player running the angle 9/10 times gets absolutely hammered.

I wouldn't be expecting Steele to be trouble the Int set up anytime soon

Cheers for the insight Sgt, I didn't honestly think Godman was going to be up to it, but I was going on the basis that form should play a part in these decisions, good to know that his form is being vastly overrated by some.

2 years ago or so I thought Weir was obviously the future, but he hasn't really kicked on as one might have expected (say the way Farrell, who was at a similar point, has), not really any more of an attacking threat, defence still a bit suspect. Shame as he has a great kicking game and temperament (IMO), ability to control games, etc.

Right now I'd fancy Russell, he looks the most promising, but reallistically it's too late for him to get up to international speed before the WC IMO. Then again, Scotland probably won't do very much at the WC with any other 10 either, so maybe it's time to develop him as a long-term project.

Jackson is out for 6-9 months with an ACL tear. Looks like we can drop him from the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29238717

IMO it'll be between Russell and Weir, with Heathcote 3rd choice.

Jackson's injury rules him out and I think Tonks will be back at 15 by the end of the season.

People are quick to judge Weir, he's had a tough couple of seasons due to injury and the competition at Glasgow but he's still a pup at 23.  Not the most expansive fly-half going but the kind of fly-half who's kicking game can just choke the life out of opposition, al la Steyn, Wilkinson or O'Gara.

Russell looks like he could be a classy player, ability to keep a defence honest and intelligent tactical game.  If he can continue improving, I could see him being first choice for a fair few years. Don't agree that he's too young to be first choice, if you're good enough you're old enough.

Shame for Jacko - was looking good for him too. Agree with reallybored re 1 and 2 but surely Horne is the 3 rd choice and can cover i/c too ?

The problem you have there Schiz is that you really want people who are getting regular team exposure playing for your national side. How often do you envisage Russell, Meatball and Furra all in the Glasgow 23? (Knowing Toonie every feccin week from now till Christmas). I'm not convinced that someone who doesn't feature in the match day 23 on a regular basis should be in the Scotland squad for the World Cup.

Horne at 12 isn't the best idea in a group with Samoa and SA - he was a defensive liability in the summer tour there and gave us no go forward.

Not that 10 is any easier defensively, but you generally have flankers helping you out.

madmaccas wrote:Jackson is out for 6-9 months with an ACL tear. Looks like we can drop him from the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29238717

Very unlucky for Rhubarb - that must near as damn it rule him out of the RWC

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

madmaccas wrote:Jackson is out for 6-9 months with an ACL tear. Looks like we can drop him from the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29238717

Very unlucky for Rhubarb - that must near as damn it rule him out of the RWC

If it's 6 months he should be back for the end of season run of games, and then he'll have the world cup warm ups.

If it's 9 plugs he's got no chance.

Tough, but he did play a full role on the last WC and is young enough to play in the next. I'm sure that's no consolation!

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:.............
Or how about take the 6 of them and host a gladiator style tournament with points allocated for each test??  We could have games such as a goal kicking match, pass the ball through the tyre, and a one on one tackling exercise where we get our back row candidates to run at each one and see how many they can tackle.  Points for the last one could be awarded on factors such as: yards lost, surface area of the stain on their underpants and decibel levels of the crowds laughter.
 

Great idea - contact SJ immediatly!

Weir reminds me very much of Craig Chalmers

Umm... Well this is interesting.

The torch-bearing mob is about 50 yards from my front door. If anything drastic happens, I just wanted to take this opportunity to say...










Is Matt Scott a 12 or a 13?

IanBru wrote:Umm... Well this is interesting.

The torch-bearing mob is about 50 yards from my front door. If anything drastic happens, I just wanted to take this opportunity to say...










Is Matt Scott a 12 or a 13?

:clap is that not the big question everyone is asking at the moment ?