New England Kit

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/17/rfu-attacked-disrespectful-victoria-cross-england-kit

Personally I'm quite shocked that England have been so off handed with this, however well intentioned. The VC is the highest award for bravery across the UK and the Commonwealth and to appropriate such a potent symbol for England only is rather offensive and like something from the last century when "England" and "the Empire" meant the same thing.

Also as a more general note, I don't like the idea of rugby taking on military symbolism.

Irish Londoner wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/17/rfu-attacked-disrespectful-victoria-cross-england-kit

Personally I'm quite shocked that England have been so off handed with this, however well intentioned. The VC is the highest award for bravery across the UK and the Commonwealth and to appropriate such a potent symbol for England only is rather offensive and like something from the last century when "England" and "the Empire" meant the same thing.

Also as a more general note, I don't like the idea of rugby taking on military symbolism.

lets just be glad they didnt go the Columbian cyclist route....

Irish Londoner wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/17/rfu-attacked-disrespectful-victoria-cross-england-kit

Personally I'm quite shocked that England have been so off handed with this, however well intentioned. The VC is the highest award for bravery across the UK and the Commonwealth and to appropriate such a potent symbol for England only is rather offensive and like something from the last century when "England" and "the Empire" meant the same thing.

Also as a more general note, I don't like the idea of rugby taking on military symbolism.

Are you sure shirt designers did not just put crosses on shirts that coincidentally look like VCs?

Companies need to gain permission and advice before appropriating cultural icons/symbols for frivolous activities such as sport. I think it is pretty naive that they didn't.

ebop wrote:Companies need to gain permission and advice before appropriating cultural icons/symbols for frivolous activities such as sport. I think it is pretty naive that they didn't.

You mean like National using Eminem...how dare they ...

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:Companies need to gain permission and advice before appropriating cultural icons/symbols for frivolous activities such as sport. I think it is pretty naive that they didn't.

You mean like National using Eminem...how dare they ...

Nah, one is culture hijacking, the other is poor taste in music.

And there was me wondering why they had the German Iron Cross on their kit...

yappysnap wrote:And there was me wondering why they had the German Iron Cross on their kit...

Of course it's a tip of the hat to the Royal Family

You ought to see the crosses that the Germans put on their kit

They mess this up every year....for once i was pleased with the colour and style of the jerseys but they managed to upset the entire military with a wee cross well done. At least its not bright purple, black, crimson hooped etc etc.

lostinwales wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/17/rfu-attacked-disrespectful-victoria-cross-england-kit

Personally I'm quite shocked that England have been so off handed with this, however well intentioned. The VC is the highest award for bravery across the UK and the Commonwealth and to appropriate such a potent symbol for England only is rather offensive and like something from the last century when "England" and "the Empire" meant the same thing.

Also as a more general note, I don't like the idea of rugby taking on military symbolism.

lets just be glad they didnt go the Columbian cyclist route....

Superb, lost

Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

If it's coincidental and just looks like the Victoria Cross - well ok that particular shape of cross has been around for centuries, but if they are purposely 'nicking' the VC then they want their arses kicked.

The VC embraces all of the Commonwealth and is not just about one particular member of that organisation.

Of course it's not like the RFU would charge ahead on a project without consulting other interested parties is it?

Scrumpy wrote:Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

Typical England - appropriating a symbol that also belongs to most of their competitors! Its interesting that only one England Rugby player has won the Victoria Cross - Ireland has two rugby internationals who won it (Tom Crean Dublin & Robert Johnson Donegal).

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

Typical England - appropriating a symbol that also belongs to most of their competitors! Its interesting that only one England Rugby player has won the Victoria Cross - Ireland has two rugby internationals who won it (Tom Crean Dublin & Robert Johnson Donegal).

But to have won the VC surely they would have to have been 'playing' for GB at the time?

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

Typical England - appropriating a symbol that also belongs to most of their competitors! Its interesting that only one England Rugby player has won the Victoria Cross - Ireland has two rugby internationals who won it (Tom Crean Dublin & Robert Johnson Donegal).

Actually 3, Frederick Harvey too.

While I wasn't going to buy a shirt, iron cross or not, I do think it is very odd how people always make a link with war and rugby. 'In the heat of the battle', 'a man you want beside you in a fight' etc. Its not war, its not serious, its just a bunch of big blokes running around a field, not life or death!

lostinwales wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

Typical England - appropriating a symbol that also belongs to most of their competitors! Its interesting that only one England Rugby player has won the Victoria Cross - Ireland has two rugby internationals who won it (Tom Crean Dublin & Robert Johnson Donegal).

But to have won the VC surely they would have to have been 'playing' for GB at the time?

Not sure what difference who they were playing for then, but England have appropirated a symbol that doesn't belong to them. By the way, they were not 'playing' for GB - Crean was a doctor in the Boer War.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Will 'The Victoria Cross Trust' also be looking to get some money from Neath RFC also?

At the end of the day 'The Victoria Cross Trust' has only been around a short time and its latest account info is 110 days overdue, doesn't sound like a very serious charity imo and if I'm not mistaken they don't own the rights to the cross symbol!

The RFU have done nothing wrong imo, apart from putting that top with blue shorts!

Typical England - appropriating a symbol that also belongs to most of their competitors! Its interesting that only one England Rugby player has won the Victoria Cross - Ireland has two rugby internationals who won it (Tom Crean Dublin & Robert Johnson Donegal).

Actually 3, Frederick Harvey too.

While I wasn't going to buy a shirt, iron cross or not, I do think it is very odd how people always make a link with war and rugby. 'In the heat of the battle', 'a man you want beside you in a fight' etc. Its not war, its not serious, its just a bunch of big blokes running around a field, not life or death!

Yes, you are right about Harvey. He was in the Canadian Army.

I like the fact that it is red, England always wanted to be Wales when it came to rugby, they need to get better players first though.

Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross

That symbol has many uses and meanings.

It's not a Maltese Cross - it's a Cross pattée.

Maybe if some of the cut from the overprice jersey went to the charities.

TrailApe wrote:It's not a Maltese Cross - it's a Cross pattée.

Possibly. But when did this charity become sole owners of this symbol? How is this disrespecting those who have been awarded the VC?

This symbol appears on lots of things from rugby shirts to wallpaper and many more besides. Do we all now have to ask this charity if it is okay to use a symbol which is the same shape as the VC?

I would doubt if the brave men and women who earned this honnor would want that, would they?

MrsP wrote:

TrailApe wrote:It's not a Maltese Cross - it's a Cross pattée.

Possibly. But when did this charity become sole owners of this symbol? How is this disrespecting those who have been awarded the VC?

This symbol appears on lots of things from rugby shirts to wallpaper and many more besides. Do we all now have to ask this charity if it is okay to use a symbol which is the same shape as the VC?

I would doubt if the brave men and women who earned this honnor would want that, would they?

I was going to ask the very same thing. This seems as I glance through it more as an affront to someone's trademark profit rights than it is considered a slur on dead soldiers or the army. And if it is such then I think the offence is more on the side of the charity who would try to drive an emotional reaction from what seems to be a commerical battle.

Where did these organisations get ownership of a British National Military Award? Surely, the Award/and images of belongs to the State and therefore the citzens as a whole?

From my perspective, I don't give a hoot about some charity who have decided to 'trademark' the concept of the VC, what I do feel strongly about is one particular national side (in this case England) trying to buy into all of the honour and sacrifice that this particular award stands for.

In my opinion it's a bit tacky.

What has the English RFU got to do with Bhanbhagta Gurung? - what argument are they employing to lay claim (by association) to the honour he was awarded?

I'm English myself but I think the RFU have dropped a clanger here. It seems to be part of the same short sighteness (arrogance) to commit to the Premiership sides suspending operations during the RWC without consulting them and a similair short sightedness (or ignorance) when the decided to name the 'A' side of a multi-cultural society after an ancient tribe that only occupied a small part of what is now England.

Arrogance, ignorance, niavety, take your pick.

TrailApe wrote:From my perspective, I don't give a hoot about some charity who have decided to 'trademark' the concept of the VC, what I do feel strongly about is one particular national side (in this case England) trying to buy into all of the honour and sacrifice that this particular award stands for.

In my opinion it's a bit tacky.

What has the English RFU got to do with Bhanbhagta Gurung? - what argument are they employing to lay claim (by association) to the honour he was awarded?

I'm English myself but I think the RFU have dropped a clanger here. It seems to be part of the same short sighteness (arrogance) to commit to the Premiership sides suspending operations during the RWC without consulting them and a similair short sightedness (or ignorance) when the decided to name the 'A' side of a multi-cultural society after an ancient tribe that only occupied a small part of what is now England.

Arrogance, ignorance, niavety, take your pick.

This X 1000

Mods - can we get a "recommend" button on the site please?

Irish Londoner wrote:

TrailApe wrote:From my perspective, I don't give a hoot about some charity who have decided to 'trademark' the concept of the VC, what I do feel strongly about is one particular national side (in this case England) trying to buy into all of the honour and sacrifice that this particular award stands for.

In my opinion it's a bit tacky.

What has the English RFU got to do with Bhanbhagta Gurung? - what argument are they employing to lay claim (by association) to the honour he was awarded?

I'm English myself but I think the RFU have dropped a clanger here. It seems to be part of the same short sighteness (arrogance) to commit to the Premiership sides suspending operations during the RWC without consulting them and a similair short sightedness (or ignorance) when the decided to name the 'A' side of a multi-cultural society after an ancient tribe that only occupied a small part of what is now England.

Arrogance, ignorance, niavety, take your pick.

This X 1000

Mods - can we get a "recommend" button on the site please?

Well, I guess you can know what I thought when I saw the jersey.  Really stupid, in the best case.  But more likely an idea suggested by an advertising guy who hasn't a clue - a total absence of mind.  Not offended but sometimes I just have to wonder what goes through peoples minds......

Did England ever wear this kit in a game?

What is that??