WI in India

I wonder who is interested.......
the ODSIs are being played so low profile
Team selection leaves a lot to be desires....Jadeja should have been rested......and Ishant no where near ODIs in India

the new 17 year old Chinaman bowler if picked with no FC or List A experience.....should be immediately played

Indian batting floundered again today....

not as bad a flop as game-1, but it's still not firing on these Patta pitches as it should.....where 300 is a par score.

chasing 263 WI are favoirtes to win

WI players have taken their ball and quite literally gone home

they are playing so unwillingly...that they aren't even appealing for catches.....and dropped about 6 sitters.
knowing that WICB has called them back...before 3 tests could be played.

and guess what BCCI does ?
invite Lanka to play 5 ODIs....to make up for the 3 lost tests

Windies 120-4 chasing 331

The current administration model of cricket is broken basically. Something like this was bound to happen sooner rather than later. Those of us who have been critical of the governance model for ages but been faced with at best disinterest and at worst blatant lies, cover-ups and propaganda would be excused for a touch of smugness as we get to say "I told you so", but as Michael Caine puts it in the Dark Knight, today even I don't want to.

A sad day indeed, and let's hope it sounds as a wake-up call so that cricket globally now gets its house in order. There have be en plenty in the recent past, but nobody seems to have taken that much notice. My hope is that as this concerns a (relatively) recent powerhouse of cricket, this time people might just do that. Because no matter how much I (and others) grumble about it, watching a sport you love unravel before your eyes whilst nobody seems to care really hurts.

Seeing the BCCI's response about the WICB apparently being harmful to the future of the game, and then immediately showing how much they (the BCCI that is) care about this by organising a meaningless 5-match ODI series against Sri Lanka, I can't say I'm too optimistic.

Anyone know what the catalyst to this was? Sorry been a little busy recently, couldn't be bothered to keep up with crickets continued suicide

If the BCCI takes the WICB to court to sue them for every penny, they might just bankrupt the WICB, which could be a blessing in disguise....

It's probably time to split up the WICB. Independent nations should be free to field their own teams, as they do in every other sport.

The dispute is somewhat predictably over money.

The WICB and the WI Players Association (WIPA) recently agreed on a new payment structure via a MoU. At first glance and without knowing too much about it, this seems sensible: enshrining a payment structure rather than as had been done previously on an ad-hoc basis with punctual renegotiations should have permitted a much more sustainable and durable model, and avoided the almost constant conflicts we have had in the past.

The trouble is though, it seems that the WIPA wasn't actually representing the players at all. They are claiming that the WIPA had no mandate or exceeded it, and that the new structure gives them a raw deal. To all intents the WIPA has "gone rogue" as it were, and is no longer acting in the interests of the players (according to the players, who probably should know). Why they would do this is anybody's guess, but I can think of a number of reasons ranging from politics to stuff which you probably shouldn't speculate about on a public forum.

We don't really know what all the players think, but there is a vocal portion (possibly all, possibly most, possibly very few) led by Dwayne Bravo (who seems to have become the unofficial spokesperson, whether that is just by his position as captain, or as their actual leader is unclear) who obviously feel they weren't consulted, and that the WIPA was not acting on their behalf. To enter a new deal (and by all the reports regardless of the actual financial impact which remains unclear the deal is fairly revolutionary) without first getting your leading players on board is at best astonishingly naive and misjudged, and at worst...

I have some sympathy with the board here. I think the idea of a new payment structure is not only a good idea but a necessary one. Of course I haven't seen or heard anything about what they have actually come up with, so it could be that in practice it is a complete travesty. More importantly though is that this seems to have been done by the backdoor. Now it could be that the board was also mislead by the WIPA and that they thought that the players association actually... represented the players. However once it became apparent that that wasn't the case, they should have backtracked, made it clear to Wavell Hinds that his position was untenable, and invited Dwayne Bravo for further talks after the completion of the current series.

However it seems part of the dispute seems to be what the players were going to get paid for playing in the current series (as things have worked out, probably something close to 0). The board wanted to pay them under the new MoU (which after all had been signed) whilst the players wanted to be paid under the old structure. It could be that this was the final sticking point, but that seems unlikely. If the board had come to the players and said "look we've both been misled by the WIPA here, let's finish this tour and then Dwayne let's sit down and work out a structure, but for now we're going to use this MoU" then I think they could have held the high ground quite easily. If the players had then said "pay us under the old structure or we don't play" then I don't think they'd have had as much of a case as they do now.

I have plenty of sympathy for the players as well. There is a tendency in this country at least to automatically condemn strike actions (and some nonsense suggestions about minimal ballots and stuff). In actual fact the withdrawal of one's labour is a desperate measure, taken as a last resort. In this case the players will probably get paid nothing for the tour, have to pay their own expenses to get back home; they may face legal action and potential bans at least from internationals.

I have at times been critical of some West Indies players' attitude on and off the field, but this can't have been an easy decision to take, and they must feel incredibly let down to really do this.

On the other hand, I doubt the WICB, even if it tidied itself up internally so that it had a stronger financial position, could pay the players and particularly the leading players what they want to be paid. Some sort of compromise will be necessary, and it is hard to apportion blame too strongly with regards to the current situation without knowing the fine print of what was offered (for example could it have proved restrictive to people wanting to play a whole season of IPL? If so is that unreasonable from the board, or are the players unreasonable?).

The issue is of course muddied by the various T20 leagues around the world which prove plenty lucrative for some of the West Indian stars. It is becoming abundantly clear that none of the "smaller" cricket boards (in fact none apart from maybe 3 or 4 boards overall) can compete financially with these leagues. This is part of what is completely breaking the model of cricket. You cannot have a sport which claims that international representation is its pinnacle under these circumstances. Something is eventually going to give.

In truth the current situation (with the WICB) is complex and probably not completely understood by anyone. It is not helped either by the West Indies not actually being a country; when issues of national team players striking come up, usually there is some sort of "oh but surely representing your country should be a big enough source of pride?" (which is true to some extent, but overly simplistic particularly in today's environment), but with the West Indies the point is they're not representing their country. They're representing a somewhat arbitrary amalgamation of countries which is not really the same thing...

If the West Indies do split up as a result (which is not at all impossible) then that poses further questions: would Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago and co have to work all their way up through the affiliate/associate system? how soon would they be able to play world cup qualifiers? would exceptions be made for them? would they be allowed to play "test" matches? This could be a potential minefield...
Incidentally from a paying the players point of view, the funds they would have available would become negligible overnight.

The system is broken. Hopefully this continued dispute will make people more aware of this.

Yes I think we're all agreed it is a sad day...but what will come of it - and whether anything could have been done to prevent it in the first place - seems beyond our powers of observation.
Mike hints at it above : the commercial t20 leagues have a financial clout that poorer boards like WICB simply cannot match. And with the further complication that West Indies is a gathering of several independent nations the wonder is that it has actually taken until now to unravel...
Will the islands split and compete individually ? Perhaps in the long term it might be better ? Wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen overnight - this is all a bit sudden and I'm sure there will be "talks". Frankly I hope they can reach a compromise and continue as they are ; but I am starting to wonder if this team , which was in a way an accident of colonialism somehow transcending its origins , can survive in the 21st Century...

shivfan wrote:If the BCCI takes the WICB to court to sue them for every penny, they might just bankrupt the WICB, which could be a blessing in disguise....

It's probably time to split up the WICB.  Independent nations should be free to field their own teams, as they do in every other sport.

someone had opened a thread on how to revive WI cricket ( i think Kingraf)
and I think my suggestion was the underlined.

Mike has appropriately summed up most of the relevant points on this subject albeit in the usual long winded 2000 words

Yip, difficult to claim international cricket as the pinnacle when there are better paying league popping up all over. My problem with these leagues is, rather than football, or even rugby, where the club games feel rather important. Every t20 league feels more like a rather protracted cricket festival. Without looking, can anyone think of who won the last two Big Bashes? Does anyone care? If people don't care, it becomes a gimmick, and that can only grab the attention for so long.

Sorry, my post rather spiralled out of control again...

kingraf wrote:Without looking, can anyone think of who won the last two Big Bashes? Does anyone care?

Without looking I have a feeling it's Tasmania (or rather the Hobart Hurricanes) last year and Western Aus (Perth Scorchers) the year before?

As to whether anyone cares... well perhaps, perhaps not. Me personally no, but I think certainly for the IPL then yes there is a very large number of people who do care very much; and I think potentially you could arrive at the situation where the (even) younger generations take the T20 leagues to heart (ever seen how young a crowd is in Aus?). If we compare the situation to the English Premier League (football) that has taken 20 years to arrive at where it is today. I do think it's possible that in time franchises like CSK et al become global brands in the way which the big football clubs have.

Crucially though I think if these T20 leagues are going to follow the PL then some of them are going to have to disappear (or be 2nd class leagues) - at the moment you have the IPL, the BBL, the CPL, the BPL, etc. etc. (and I am almost certain the County T20 competition will follow suit sooner rather than later) then the Champions League on top of it. In football realistically only a very small handful of clubs outside the PL generate the kind of world-wide interest that the top PL clubs do. And apart from maybe La Liga none of the leagues are anywhere close.

I can certainly see the IPL reach outside its borders. Other leagues though? May depend on who teams can attract to play for them etc.

I do think that eventually people will have to bite the bullet and open a window for the IPL, but...

Anyway we digress somewhat.

Sad indeed. Wasn't too much bothered with the ODIs, but wanted to follow the tests. Now there won't be any tests, instead there would be 5 ODIs against, yes, Sri Lanka yet again!.
No hope of going into the Australia series at least with a bit of FeelGood before Mitchell Johnson destroys our batting, and every Australian batsmen lay claim to being the next Bradman!.

While I have almost always gone with the player in player board scenarios, this is one where I wouldn't take such a stand. If Bravo and co had a problem, they should never have started the tour. Now after they started, they should have seen it through before taking drastic action. And I wouldn't put all blaim on the WIPA either. The WIPA signed the MoU with the WICB with a view to expand the contract base of West Indies players to a solid number of 90. The West Indies A side is still going on with the tour of Sri Lanka. the WIPA president claims that the senior players including skipper Bravo were part of the meeting that gave the go ahead to the decision to try and expand the player base through board contracts. The WICB isn't the BCCI or the ECB or CA to be able to pay all that money straight from their pockets, the players also had to make some sacrifices.
Now one can't know whether all the players were eventually taken into confidence about the final draft. But thre was a larger cause to which the players had to commit. So if the new MoU had issues, they could, should have sorted it out before the tour started, or after it was done. They still had a tour of South Africa that would have followed soon after the India tour, and thus still had the chance to put the board under pressure if they were in fact dealt a raw deal.
Now with the present action, they have brought serious damage in the WICB's relations with the BCCI that can have serious financial implications on West Indies cricket, that in turn would harm players who do not have access to IPL money.
The WICB should also have realized the same, and should have agreed to go on with the old MoU at least for this tour and then should have taken up the issues with the players after the end of the tour.
Total mess we have, and on top of that another India-Sri Lanka ODI series too!.

Yep it's a mess. Cricket is such a small world, and so based on the international game, that even something like this has devastating domino effects. South Africa's inbound tour against the Windies is now at risk as well. With Kingraf and his mates being the dumbasses who bought tickets to 12 test days out of fifteen, two Odi's and both T20s.

remember what the Indian board did to SA on the logart stand-off..called them...made them bow, beg grovel....threw more than a bit of attitude and even more posturing.....

docked off one test......and magnanimously pardoned them.

this will be a variant of the same script

all will be well in the end

The one interesting thing in this saga, as one cricinfo commentator rightly observed, the BCCI had a situation that they couldn't fully control.! Wouldn't want the WI players in the IPL. Not going to happen though, I know. One more reason for me not to be bothered with the IPL that I wasn't too bothered with even last season for a start.

WI have been asked to pay 48 Million usd fine by BCCI
they could have settled the wage disputes with players for far less

And how does the BCCI expect the WICB to pay this money, when they made a loss of US$6m last year...even with playing India?

Bankruptcy is inevitable for the WICB, if the BCCI win this case in court....

Mike Selig wrote:

If the West Indies do split up as a result (which is not at all impossible) then that poses further questions: would Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago and co have to work all their way up through the affiliate/associate system? how soon would they be able to play world cup qualifiers? would exceptions be made for them? would they be allowed to play "test" matches? This could be a potential minefield...
Incidentally from a paying the players point of view, the funds they would have available would become negligible overnight.

The system is broken. Hopefully this continued dispute will make people more aware of this.

Working through the affiliate/associate system is not as difficult as you might think....

Afghanistan entered the WCL at the Division Five level in 2008, and by 2009 they had been promoted to Division One, alongside Ireland, who Jamaica and Guyana beat earlier this year.

So, it can be done, and it can be done fairly quickly.  It's just a matter of entering it when the cycle is right.

I don't see individual countries paying their players as a problem. Jamaica is already doing that for its track and field athletes and its netballers. In the Commonwealth Games, Jamaica's netball team beat England to secure the bronze medal. The sprinters and the netballers don't go on strike against their country.

That's the difference...the West Indies is not a country. It's one thing to strike against the West Indies, but it's quite a different kettle of fish to strike against your country.

It's just up to the BCCI now, to decide whether this is the only option left open to Caribbean cricket....