Absolutely taking the urine

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

I don't think it has come as much of a surprise that the French teams haven't taken it seriously, but that has definitely come as an advantage for the likes of the Dragons and Edinburgh who were desperately needing confidence boosting wins and managed to get them away from home against two decent French teams (albeit their 2nd string).

The pool stages are definitely going to be a bit of a farce, but I think by the time the knock-out competition comes along and teams realise they might actually stand a chance of winning it, hopefully the games could have more meaning.

For example we could have something like (fairly randomly choosing pool winners and runners up):

Cardiff Blues V Exeter Chiefs
London Irish V Connacht
Edinburgh V Stade Francais
Gloucester V Bordeaux-Begles


There are some decent lineups in there that could hopefully reach ECC level in terms of intensity and quality - if both teams take it seriously that is.

As an Edinburgh fan, given our current predicament and level of performances this season I'm quite glad in a way that we're in this 2nd tier competition to pick up some confidence boosting wins and give the players something to aim for later in the season. I'd dread to think how badly we'd get thrashed week in week out if we were in the main competition just now.

Saying that, I do hope next season we're in the top tier...

That's all fine, but we were all told that the qualification from the Pro12 was unfair, and they wanted better teams in the second tier to make it more marketable and more interesting, and now we have the French putting 2nd string teams out in it, it is a sham.

The French teams have done just the same for years, I don't know why you are surprised?

Well said bathman in london.

Lorddowlais it's not been a bad start to the ERCC.

Both Scottish teams won matches too!

As RDW Scotland says - it's always nice for teams to get a confidence boost.

That's what the 2nd tier competition is for. If you want to be in the top tier you have to earn it.

You think you're too good for 2nd tier? Prove it.

I remember not too long ago (probably 4-5 years?) when you had Castres,Toulon and Saracens in an amlin pool together with only one qualifying - now that was farcical!

Hang on a minute, it was not so long ago, we had you lot saying it is not fair that the teams in the Pro12 could rest their players and keep them fit for Europe, what is the difference with what the French are doing ? They are not taking Europe seriously so they can rest their players for their league, I was being told the other day, that why should teams like Gloucester have to play rubbish teams and thrash them in the second tier, when the second tier could be a lot better, the second tier is being made a mockery of, because the French are not taking it seriously, I will wait and see if the top French clubs send weaker teams away in the top tier comp as well, and then we will see how that goes down.

beshocked wrote:That's what the 2nd tier competition is for. If you want to be in the top tier you have to earn it.

You think you're too good for 2nd tier? Prove it.

Thats the entire point, and the entire problem. If you want to 'prove it' the only mechanism to do that is in the leagues. You can't prove you're good enough for the first tier competition by winning the second tier competition anymore because winning it no longer qualifies you for the first tier competition. Therefore there is much less at stake, therefore the games are less interesting and teams care less about their results in this competition.

The Second Tier competition is a distraction for teams who prioritise qualifying for the first tier competition via the leagues because in a crowded calendar they have to choose their battles. Its really very simple. The old Challenge Cup used to suffer from the exact same problem of French teams not taking it at all seriously, so they changed the rules so that the winner qualified for the first tier competition. They started taking it more seriously as a result- not entirely as seriously as they take the Top14 but they treated the competition with at least some degree of credibility. Now, with the successor to that tournament, they have scrapped the rule that the winner is guaranteed a place at the top table. And it's not at all surprising that the French teams and some other sides once again simply do not care at all about this tournament.

Change the qualification rules and give the 20th first tier spot to the winner of the second tier tournament instead of having a silly and convoluted end of season playoff system. It's not rocket science.

So your gripe is that the new competition is rubbish because the French are sending out weakened sides. That has never been any different, so not sure how that is the fault of the new competition.

It is what it is. There will always be mismatches in it, as highlighted by a couple of results this weekend, but ultimately there will also be more close games as we've lost some of the weaker sides and replaced them with more Pro12 teams. Why not wait until qualifying is done rather than base a rant on a single round of the competition.

the second tier tournament has improved. some of you only notice it now that you have teams that are in it. that is the joke.

if the pro12 had relegation, i think you would find they, like the french (who see 2 teams relegated each year) would be more focused on their bread-and-butter domestic competition that the 2nd tier euro comp, at least until the knockout stages.

and the top tier tournament will be much better without the obviously weaker teams that dropped down to the 2nd tier.

Notch wrote:

beshocked wrote:That's what the 2nd tier competition is for. If you want to be in the top tier you have to earn it.

You think you're too good for 2nd tier? Prove it.

Thats the entire point, and the entire problem. If you want to 'prove it' the only mechanism to do that is in the leagues. You can't prove you're good enough for the first tier competition by winning the second tier competition anymore because winning it no longer qualifies you for the first tier competition. Therefore there is much less at stake, therefore the games are less interesting and teams care less about their results in this competition.

The Second Tier competition is a distraction for teams who prioritise qualifying for the first tier competition via the leagues because in a crowded calendar they have to choose their battles. Its really very simple. The old Challenge Cup used to suffer from the exact same problem of French teams not taking it at all seriously, so they changed the rules so that the winner qualified for the first tier competition. They started taking it more seriously as a result- not entirely as seriously as they take the Top14 but they treated the competition with at least some degree of credibility. Now, with the successor to that tournament, they have scrapped the rule that the winner is guaranteed a place at the top table. And it's not at all surprising that the French teams and some other sides once again simply do not care at all about this tournament.

Change the qualification rules and give the 20th first tier spot to the winner of the second tier tournament instead of having a silly and convoluted end of season playoff system. It's not rocket science.

That's not entirely true. Over the past few years French teams in the Amlin rarely put out decent sides int he pool stages, and only start taking it seriously if they make the knockouts.

Connacht and Dragons would fit the agenda better than Edinburgh. A narrow win over a "3rd choice" French team, albeit in France and against the odds, probably wouldn't demand inclusion in the elite competition.

There's always a bright side too - Cardiff have Rovigo next, and they'll probably put out a first choice team.

And this year I doubt they'll start taking it seriously if they reach the knockouts.

Lorddowlais don't complain to us - complain to the French!

Notch I know it sounds a strange concept but generally I want my team to try in every competition!

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais don't complain to us - complain to the French!

Notch I know it sounds a strange concept but generally I want my team to try in every competition!

Me too. But we're not French!

All the people defending what the French are doing need to think of this, when certain French clubs find that they have no chance of qualifying out of their groups in the top tier comp, and they start putting out second string sides at the end of their groups stages, how it will affect those who are fighting to qualify. For example, Northampton have already gone out to Racing and come away with nothing, if Racing then lose both away games to the Ospreys and Northampton, by the time that the Ospreys go to Racing, they might think that Europe is not worth it, and they could put out a weaker side, then the Ospreys get a losing bonus point or even a win and the group is all but decided, how would the Northampton fans take that.

PS, what I have just said is an example, I do not know the order of the fixtures, but I have seen things like that happening before.

I do think the winner of the 2nd Tier competition should qualify for the 1st Tier the next season, however I don't see that as fatal to the competition.

I don't actually give a stuff about the French, let them go in their own direction. Their national side is in complete disarray, their club league is loaded with unsustainable levels of debt and chocked full of foreign mercenaries at the end of their careers, or Celtic players looking to earn cash. I don't believe any of these players would be there were it not for the significant uplift in remuneration, and Lancaster (and to a lesser extent Gatland) are entirely right to withdraw international rugby from those who decide to leave. I wish Cotter could afford to do the same.

The new European structure is better. Club should have to really earn the right to make the 1st Tier and the 2nd Tier is good experience for those wishing to make it. If you cannot juggle the 2nd Tier and the league at the same time, then there's little point in whining about not being involved in the 1st Tier - it gets no easier. The Pro12 should also be more exciting given what's at stake in achieving 1st Tier status the following season.

The only thing that could improve the system in my view is ceasing the guarantee in the Pro12 that each country must be represented. I've changed position on this, but regarding the Pro12 I think the cut off should be the cut-off, and there should be no guarantee that a country gets a side in the 1st Tier. Italy have had long enough to get their house in order, and there should be no guaranteed slots in the 1st Tier other than for sides that are there on merit. If all the Irish sides make the cut, and no Scottish sides, then so be it.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais don't complain to us - complain to the French!

Notch I know it sounds a strange concept but generally I want my team to try in every competition!

I am not complaining to you personally, I am complaining in general, I was told by people on here, and through the media, by both French and English representatives that they wanted a stronger second tier, and that perhaps more Welsh/Irish/Scottish regions in it would make it better. Well I reckon, if the French took it more serious, then that would make it better, and if they have been doing this for years, then perhaps it should have been brought up during the debacle we had to change it all. Also, it is a club run tournament now isn't it ? So who could you complain to, the clubs who are making a mockery of it ?

a few points:

1) Edimburgh won by what? two points? "wiping the floor" seems a bit of an exaggeration to me.

2) what others have said. As a LI fan I would much rather watch us in the ERCC against the likes of Toulouse, Leinster, etc. than thrashing the likes of Rovigo, but LI haven't earned the right to be in the top comp so we aren't. It strikes me as the same situation with Cardiff and Edimburgh (though it will understandably take fans of these clubs time to get used to the idea).

3) what Notch said. The problem with the second-tier comp is that there's no real incentive for a club like Bordeaux-Begles to go out and win it: sure it's a nice bit of silverware, but they'll get a lot more benefits from finishing top 6 in the Top 14 (or better) and playing the top comp next year. The problem with French clubs is that their season is too long really (4 extra matches right?) so they have to prioritise (especially a team like Bordeaux, who have I think the 3rd smallest budget in the Top 14).

RDW posted a somewhat random (but plausible) list of potential QFs for the challenge cup, and I think it looks pretty decent as a "best of the rest" look about it. The Challenge Cup will never be able to compete with the ERCC, but it deserves to exist in its own right, if it allows Edimburgh (for instance) a chance at some silverware, is that a bad thing?

I would have liked to have seen the winner go straight through to the ERCC though, that would have been a nice incentive, but obviously the initial idea for the ERCC (I think 6+6+6+winners of both comps) needed some compromise, which came in the shape of scrapping the automatic spot for the winner of the Challenge Cup (though don't they still make the play-offs for the final ERCC spot?).

I suspect what the OP is ultimately experiencing is what many fans of lower-placed Aviva clubs have been experiencing for a long time now. The French not taking the Challenge Cup seriously (particularly the smaller budgets - Stade Français will probably still be able to put out half-decent teams for instance) is nothing new, and not much can be done about it IMO. At least the English clubs will have a bit of competition in it this year (not parachuted from the HC, which was one of the silliest ideas ever...).

Notch wrote:And this year I doubt they'll start taking it seriously if they reach the knockouts.

If they don't take it seriously in the pool stages, they probably won't reach the knockouts - that's the difference this year.

I'd like there to be the promotion for the Challenge winners, but more to show the Tier 2 aspirants that there is a pathway to the top table, however unlikely that seems at the moment.

Lorddowlais I am not defending the French way. I agree with you but the upside is it gives you an opportunity of silverware. Plus it's not a new issue as already mentioned numerous times.

Well said Made for Chelsea.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do think the winner of the 2nd Tier competition should qualify for the 1st Tier the next season, however I don't see that as fatal to the competition.

I don't actually give a stuff about the French, let them go in their own direction. Their national side is in complete disarray, their club league is loaded with unsustainable levels of debt and chocked full of foreign mercenaries at the end of their careers, or Celtic players looking to earn cash. I don't believe any of these players would be there were it not for the significant uplift in remuneration, and Lancaster (and to a lesser extent Gatland) are entirely right to withdraw international rugby from those who decide to leave. I wish Cotter could afford to do the same.

The new European structure is better. Club should have to really earn the right to make the 1st Tier and the 2nd Tier is good experience for those wishing to make it. If you cannot juggle the 2nd Tier and the league at the same time, then there's little point in whining about not being involved in the 1st Tier - it gets no easier. The Pro12 should also be more exciting given what's at stake in achieving 1st Tier status the following season.

The only thing that could improve the system in my view is ceasing the guarantee in the Pro12 that each country must be represented. I've changed position on this, but regarding the Pro12 I think the cut off should be the cut-off, and there should be no guarantee that a country gets a side in the 1st Tier. Italy have had long enough to get their house in order, and there should be no guaranteed slots in the 1st Tier other than for sides that are there on merit. If all the Irish sides make the cut, and no Scottish sides, then so be it.

Agree with pretty much everything here

Ok, if the English clubs have been putting up with this for ages, then why didn't they complain about it when the whole fiasco over Europe erupted ? Why did they only focus on how the Celts and Italians qualified and the money involved, why, when it was said, that they wanted to make the second tier comp more marketable,and more competitive, didn't they pipe up about the French not taking it serious ?

Second tier in Europe is again what it always has been - total bunk, a circus to pat-the-heads of the minnows, something to keep the minnows warmed up as the 'big lads' have the real competition above them with the bells and whistles.  
The 2nd tier is the height of platitudinous claptrap and the French clubs call it for what it is by yawning and saying 'no thanks'.

If you're consigned to Tier 2, then your main route out of Tier 2 is then League position.  That's where your heavy hitting resources should be and that's where the smart teams will still but them.  And even if any of the 'big' sides found themselves in Tier 2 over the next few seasons (Leicester, Harlequins, Leinster, Toulouse dare I even whisper it...Toulon etc) I have no doubt that they'd then put their main forces and imposing tactics into their Leagues to fight their way back into the top competition.  

Tier 2 will never be a competition where top fair rugby is played, it's a consolation prize for 2nd string players from pi-ss-ed off sides.  Even the lower rung Pro12 sides will quickly realise that pragmatism is in copying the French rather than complaining about them.  

The better idea would be to drop the Sneer competition altogether and allow the lesser sides the two week break to prepare themselves to fight harder in the only competition that should mean anything for them - their own Leagues.  The little rest periods throughout a season might be seen to give the lesser sides a little consolation edge over their Big Daddy 'betters' returning from the heroics of the Big Daddy contest that everyone really wants in on.

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, if the English clubs have been putting up with this for ages, then why didn't they complain about it when the whole fiasco over Europe erupted ? Why did they only focus on how the Celts and Italians qualified and the money involved, why, when it was said, that they wanted to make the second tier comp more marketable,and more competitive, didn't they pipe up about the French not taking it serious ?  

They did, if you mean the normal fans on here. The likes of HammerOfThunor talked about it at length. If you mean the powers that be in English rugby both in the clubs and the union, then annoying the French was not a good idea for either side. They were the kingmakers if you recall. So neither side was going to go public criticising the French clubs when they were trying to win them over to their side of the debate.

A lot of the changes have been forced to actually reduce the impact the European competition has on the French league, thats why the final has been brought forward and the playoff system introduced instead of prioritising the winners of each tournament. Because the French clubs care more about their league than anything else. More than their national team, more than European competition. Everything revolves around their league.

because there's not a lot you can do about it really?

as it is, there were several competitive matches in the Challenge Cup this week-end (Bordeaux-Edimburgh, ironically for the OP, being one of them, Bayonne-Exeter was another), which is already an improvement on previous years where you'd have about that amount of competitive matches throughout the pool stages. So yes, the inclusion of more pro 12 teams has IMO already brought about an improvement.

Another point which hasn't really been raised is the fact that this comp is the only one which allows French clubs to give their academy guys a run-out and take a look at them (English and Welsh clubs have the LV for this, in football there's the league cup, etc.). So some teams will use the opportunity.

Notch wrote:Because the French clubs care more about their league than anything else. More than their national team, more than European competition. Everything revolves around their league.

This is unfortunately very true. And silly. I remember a few years back Toulouse were in the SFs of both the HC and the Top 14, the SFs were going to be played close to each other, so they sent out a B team in the HC (and of course lost), Novès made no excuses for it either, it was fairly shocking.

Secretfly actually most top tier sides when they were in the Amlin did throw resources into it like Toulon and Saracens. It's just they had the farcical circumstance of being in the same pool with Castres too - you had a ridiculous circumstance where one team won 5 out of 6 games yet did not make the quarter finals despite having the strongest sides in the whole Amlin competition their pool!

Lorddowlais we couldn't isolate ourselves by attacking the French when the Celts were focussing their criticisms on the PRL.

I could say - why didn't you focus criticism on the French clubs? Instead you demonised the PRL.

Notch I agree. Unfortunately the PRL had to dance to the French tune.


Actually Exeter were guilty of putting out a weakened side too so to be fair to the French it's not just them.

It will happen in the top tier comp as well, when a French club decides they have no hope in it, they will put weaker sides out, totally stuffing up who qualifies from each group, I will await you all when this happens.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly actually most top tier sides when they were in the Amlin did throw resources into it like Toulon and Saracens. It's just they had the farcical circumstance of being in the same pool with Castres too - you had a ridiculous circumstance where one team won 5 out of 6 games yet did not make the quarter finals despite having the strongest sides in the whole Amlin competition their pool!

Lorddowlais we couldn't isolate ourselves by attacking the French when the Celts were focussing their criticisms on the PRL.

I could say - why didn't you focus criticism on the French clubs? Instead you demonised the PRL.

Notch I agree. Unfortunately the PRL had to dance to the French tune.


Actually Exeter were guilty of putting out a weakened side too so to be fair to the French it's not just them.

happened to LI last year too you know, not that rare (though that was with the revamped structure with teams dropping down from the Heino...)

Mad for Chelsea wrote:because there's not a lot you can do about it really?

as it is, there were several competitive matches in the Challenge Cup this week-end (Bordeaux-Edimburgh, ironically for the OP, being one of them, Bayonne-Exeter was another), which is already an improvement on previous years where you'd have about that amount of competitive matches throughout the pool stages. So yes, the inclusion of more pro 12 teams has IMO already brought about an improvement.

Another point which hasn't really been raised is the fact that this comp is the only one which allows French clubs to give their academy guys a run-out and take a look at them (English and Welsh clubs have the LV for this, in football there's the league cup, etc.). So some teams will use the opportunity.

Giving your academy a run-out to look at them is only beneficial if the opposition are dumb enough to put out their considered 'best' players - which is probably what happened at the weekend. If two academies face each other, there is not a lot of learning to be had on how those academy guys might do amongst top players in Top14 or the top Euro event. As I say, over time pragmatism will inform the Pro12 sides and they will not afford the French the luxury of giving higher quality competition to their rookies. Better to keep your best players for the competition that might at least afford you an opportunity to rise up from Tier 2 itself.

LordDowlais wrote:So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

All complaints should be lodged with BT as they are running Euro rugby now.

LordDowlais wrote:It will happen in the top tier comp as well, when a French club decides they have no hope in it, they will put weaker sides out, totally stuffing up who qualifies from each group, I will await you all when this happens.

It's been happening in HC for years and not only after there's no hope. English clubs do usually wait until the last couple of rounds, though.

Can't see it changing for the ERCC, but we'll wait and see.

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly actually most top tier sides when they were in the Amlin did throw resources into it like Toulon and Saracens.

Was that before or after they became top tier?  And I'd still say it's a pretty dumb step to dump best players into a competition that I'd ban  

First the ERCC, then League.  One leads to the other - the Challenge Cup leads nowhere except add another title to the rugby calendar for those people who simply love clutter.  It's like the myriad of Boxing Belts out there...one for everyone in the audience so that every boxer thinks he's the best'n't'world, mate...for a day!!!

BTW, it's a wise thing indeed for the people who invent names to invent so many of them that have so many 'C's!!!!

The Champions Cup, the Challenge Cup...the CC..the which-one-am-I-refering-to-if-I-want-to-shorten-the-blasted-unwieldy-and-pompous  European Rugby Champions Cup.  

Could sporting codes please get over their obsession with the letter 'C' please.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

beshocked wrote:Secretfly actually most top tier sides when they were in the Amlin did throw resources into it like Toulon and Saracens. It's just they had the farcical circumstance of being in the same pool with Castres too - you had a ridiculous circumstance where one team won 5 out of 6 games yet did not make the quarter finals despite having the strongest sides in the whole Amlin competition their pool!

Lorddowlais we couldn't isolate ourselves by attacking the French when the Celts were focussing their criticisms on the PRL.

I could say - why didn't you focus criticism on the French clubs? Instead you demonised the PRL.

Notch I agree. Unfortunately the PRL had to dance to the French tune.


Actually Exeter were guilty of putting out a weakened side too so to be fair to the French it's not just them.

happened to LI last year too you know, not that rare (though that was with the revamped structure with teams dropping down from the Heino...)

True but in the terms of the quality of pools

Castres,Saracens,Toulon,Rovigo crushes Cavalieri Prato, London Irish, Lusitanos XV and Stade Francais.

It was the season when Castres,Toulon and Saracens first emerged - I think all three qualified for the HC, the next season.

A simple way to make the competition more attractive is to reward the winner appropriately. Instead of having this farcical play off at the end of the season to see who fills the remaining spot for the Champions Cup, they should simply let the Challenge Cup winner take a spot. To add a further incentive, if the winner already qualifies via their league finish, then instead of rewarding another team from their league, the runner up of the Challenge should get the spot.

Personally I think the only way to make it better is to rank teams according to their wealth and the amount of foreign players they have.

Failing that, if in doubt just put an extra English team in.

HongKongCherry wrote:A simple way to make the competition more attractive is to reward the winner appropriately.  Instead of having this farcical play off at the end of the season to see who fills the remaining spot for the Champions Cup, they should simply let the Challenge Cup winner take a spot. To add a further incentive, if the winner already qualifies via their league finish, then instead of rewarding another team from their league, the runner up of the Challenge should get the spot.  

Two Challenge Cupper idiot sides in the Biggest Bestestest Baddest Most Meritocratic Rugby Competition in the History of the World??!!!!!!!!!!

Two of them?  Maybe two Pro12 minnows???  Maybe two Italian sides???  In the ERCC by right???

Get a grip of yourself!  The talk is going to your head

LordDowlais wrote:That's all fine, but we were all told that the qualification from the Pro12 was unfair, and they wanted better teams in the second tier to make it more marketable and more interesting, and now we have the French putting 2nd string teams out in it, it is a sham.

They have...the Newcastle Falcons are in it...

SecretFly wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:A simple way to make the competition more attractive is to reward the winner appropriately.  Instead of having this farcical play off at the end of the season to see who fills the remaining spot for the Champions Cup, they should simply let the Challenge Cup winner take a spot. To add a further incentive, if the winner already qualifies via their league finish, then instead of rewarding another team from their league, the runner up of the Challenge should get the spot.  

Two Challenge Cupper idiot sides in the Biggest Bestestest Baddest Most Meritocratic Rugby Competition in the History of the World??!!!!!!!!!!

Two of them?  Maybe two Pro12 minnows???  Maybe two Italian sides???   In the ERCC by right???

Get a grip of yourself!  The talk is going to your head

You mock the competition yet I thought that the ERCC first round was competitive and was in general of good quality.

It's interesting that all 3 Irish sides were losing at half time with two of them going on to win.

SecretFly wrote:Second tier in Europe is again what it always has been - total bunk, a circus to pat-the-heads of the minnows, something to keep the minnows warmed up as the 'big lads' have the real competition above them with the bells and whistles.  
The 2nd tier is the height of platitudinous claptrap and the French clubs call it for what it is by yawning and saying 'no thanks'.

If you're consigned to Tier 2, then your main route out of Tier 2 is then League position.  That's where your heavy hitting resources should be and that's where the smart teams will still but them.  And even if any of the 'big' sides found themselves in Tier 2 over the next few seasons (Leicester, Harlequins, Leinster, Toulouse dare I even whisper it...Toulon etc) I have no doubt that they'd then put their main forces and imposing tactics into their Leagues to fight their way back into the top competition.  

Tier 2 will never be a competition where top fair rugby is played, it's a consolation prize for 2nd string players from pi-ss-ed off sides. Even the lower rung Pro12 sides will quickly realise that pragmatism is in copying the French rather than complaining about them.
The better idea would be to drop the Sneer competition altogether and allow the lesser sides the two week break to prepare themselves to fight harder in the only competition that should mean anything for them - their own Leagues.  The little rest periods throughout a season might be seen to give the lesser sides a little consolation edge over their Big Daddy 'betters' returning from the heroics of the Big Daddy contest that everyone really wants in on.

If Edinburgh were to go down the route you mention, my season ticket definitely wouldn't be getting renewed. Personally I would rather win the Challenge Cup this year and miss out on qualifying in the league than lie down and flop in the Challenge Cup groups and scrape home into 6th in the league.

What has happened to having a club culture, where players, management and fans join together in the journey across a season?? Being in the tier 2 comp isn't ideal but now we are hear I expect the team to fight tooth and nail to succeed in it. Give us some wins, some tries, some new venues for an away trip, and mabye the excitement of knockout rugby and possibly a chance to see the team win a trophy.

In Premier League football now the fans mean nothing, sod the FA Cup, The League Cup, The Europa League, and even the Premier League title doesn't mean much now. 4th Place is the be all and end all.
I think you are right that we do seem to be heading in that direction, but it really does depress me. We should demand more respect from our teams, rather than give them a free pass to stick the V up at us which you seem to want to encourage. The arrogance and contempt some of the French teams show this competition is an insult to their own fans in my opinion.

Just as an aside, if you were to simply get rid of the second tier competition the clubs will lose at least three revenue generating home games a season. This could be a nasty little hit to club finances. I don't mind the French not taking it seriously and I like that the English clubs get to try out promising youngsters in what is (at least) a semi serious competition.

Also, as a Newcastle fan it is nice to get away from the grind of Premiership survival for a little while every now and then.

Home attendances for the Challenge Cup this weekend

Gloucester (9,793)
Bordeaux (2800)
Newcastle (3855)
Zebre (2100)
Lyon (9100)
Bayonne (8206)
Connacht (4735)
The Blues (6267)
London Irish (4219)
Couldn’t see the Stade Francais one

I got them from the BBC website and if they are correct, they are fairly healthy. They are undoubtedly less than for league games, but there is obvious interest for the most part.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions PRL/LNR wanted and we're stuck with it.

There you are I have fixed that for you.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:A simple way to make the competition more attractive is to reward the winner appropriately.  Instead of having this farcical play off at the end of the season to see who fills the remaining spot for the Champions Cup, they should simply let the Challenge Cup winner take a spot. To add a further incentive, if the winner already qualifies via their league finish, then instead of rewarding another team from their league, the runner up of the Challenge should get the spot.  

Two Challenge Cupper idiot sides in the Biggest Bestestest Baddest Most Meritocratic Rugby Competition in the History of the World??!!!!!!!!!!

Two of them?  Maybe two Pro12 minnows???  Maybe two Italian sides???   In the ERCC by right???

Get a grip of yourself!  The talk is going to your head

You mock the competition yet I thought that the ERCC first round was competitive and was in general of good quality.

It's interesting that all 3 Irish sides were losing at half time with two of them going on to win.

I mock it because I'm consistent and always have been.  

I mocked the Amlin too and was often called up on it because certain people felt I was being pompous and arrogant and that my attitude was informed by self-satisfied Leinster smugness.

It was nothing of the sort and the extreme opposite.  

I mock anything that seeks to mock 'small people'  - and that usually happens through avenues of affected concern, affected affection for and affected interest in the exploits of little people whilst inventing endless methods to keep them 'little'.
The 2nd tier contest is designed for 'little people' with the express purpose of hoping that most of them get 'competitve' in it amongst themselves, and perhaps competitive enough to forget they want to be in the Top tier contest at all - God love'em, the little things    

Sure they'll love beating French academy sides by cricket scores down there whilst we at the current top lure the Big Daddy financiers, sponsors, advertisers, TV companies and unlimited salary caps here to make sure we never have to worry about tier 2 ever again.

The French don't buy the competition (the hardly buy the Tier 1 one either!).  They feel The Challenge Cup is a 'mock'-up contest and therefore use it for such purposes....and 'mock' it with the sides they give to it.

And on your comment: "It's interesting that all 3 Irish sides were losing at half time with two of them going on to win."  I'd have to ask you to elaborate on that before I can understand the point you're making.

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

No - the Unions are the evil geniuses in the movie Hammer is talking about. The lost everything they wanted but got everything they asked for. The bleedin' rotters!

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

The current qualification structure came out of the meeting between the unions and the IRB recommended moderator that the PRL weren't invited to. Not every bad idea comes out of the PRL.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/sport/mediators-statement.pdf

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

No  - the Unions are the evil geniuses in the movie Hammer is talking about.  The lost everything they wanted but got everything they asked for.  The bleedin' rotters!

Not really. I try to live in the real world where evil geniuses are rare and generally not involved in rugby. I don't try and pin every bad idea on one group I'm trying to demonise. Usually I try, and I do try, to deal with facts rather than made up theories that fit my world view.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Not really. I try to live in the real world where evil geniuses are rare and generally not involved in rugby.  I don't try and pin every bad idea on one group I'm trying to demonise.  Usually I try, and I do try, to deal with facts rather than made up theories that fit my world view.

You clearly don't fit in here