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Scotland v Tonga, 22 November

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Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Empty Scotland v Tonga, 22 November

Post by RDW Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:54 am

Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Scotla10   Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Sky_sp12        
Scotland v Tonga

Date: Saturday, November 22
Venue: Rugby Park, Kilmarnock
Kickoff: 14:30 local (GMT)
Referee: JP Doyle (Ingerlund)
Assistant Referees: ?
TMO: Gareth Simmonds ?

Autumn tests so far

Scotland 41 - Argentina 31
Scotland 16 - New Zealand 24

Tonga 40 - USA 12
Georgia 9 - Tonga 23

Teams

Scotland
Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  5750750-3x2-700x467
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 26 caps
14 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 12 caps
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 90 caps
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 3 tries
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby); 14 caps

10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 33 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 38 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 79 caps
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 34 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 41 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 7 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 5 caps
8 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 33 caps

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 2caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 5 caps
18 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors); 18 caps
19 Kieran Low (London Irish); 4 caps
20 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan); 41 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 69 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 17 caps
23 Duncan Taylor (Saracens); 11 caps

Tonga  
Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  An-excited-Tongan-rugby-f-001

[TBC]

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:09 am

Selection wise I think Cotter needs to pick the same XV as is possible, allowing for injuries. There is no way we can afford to take Tonga lightly, and we simply aren't good enough a team to be able to implement mass rotation yet and get away with it.

Hard to tell what that team will be at this stage without knowing the full extent of the injuries.

Other than injuries, I'd quite like to see Cusiter getting his chance (although Laidlaw has led the squad very well) and would probably put Denton in there for his physicality.

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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:52 am

As Bennett is the only confirmed absentee, I’d pick exactly the same team but with Lamont at 13 and Cusiter at 9. No slight on Laidlaw, I’d just like to see Cusiter back on the pitch and Russell handed the kicking duties to see how he deals with the pressure.

Laidlaw and Taylor to the bench, along with Swinson ahead of Denton.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:56 am

Lamont at 13, just no.

Personally I would shuffle the backs a bit in Bennets absence.

Perhaps Maitland or Hogg to 13 and bring Visser in.

Or give Horne a chance if he is fit or bring Taylor in at 12 and shuffle Dunbar to 13.

I would really like to get away from Lamont in the midfield.
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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:02 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Lamont at 13, just no.

Personally I would shuffle the backs a bit in Bennets absence.

Perhaps Maitland or Hogg to 13 and bring Visser in.

Or give Horne a chance if he is fit or bring Taylor in at 12 and shuffle Dunbar to 13.

I would really like to get away from Lamont in the midfield.

Horne will almost certainly be playing for Glasgow at the weekend. I don't think Maitland has ever played 13, and it's really not Hogg's best position. I wouldn't be that upset if the latter played there, but I'd like to keep our back three intact across all three games. Taylor is as limited as Lamont, and Lamont played well against the ABs - one important turnover, and our best break. He's not a long term option, but I could cope with it for one game.

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Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Empty Scotland v Tonga, 22 November

Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:03 pm

Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Sky_sp10   Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Sky_sp11   
Scotland v Tonga
22 November 2014
KO: 14:30 GMT
Rugby Park, Kilmarnock

Referee: JP Doyle (RFU)
Touch judges:
[*]
TMO:
[*]

Telly TBC

A. Teams:

Scotland
Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Joanne11
[*]

Tonga
Scotland v Tonga, 22 November  Theres10
[*]

B. Form - head to head (including Scotland 'A' matches):

5 Played 5
4 Won 1
1 Lost 4
0 Drawn 0
166 For 59
59 Against 166

C. Form:

Scotland

15 November 2014
Scotland 16 - 24 New Zealand

8 November 2014
Scotland 41 - 31 Argentina

28 June 2014
South Africa 55–6 Scotland

20 June 2014
Argentina 19–21 Scotland

14 June 2014
Canada 17–19 Scotland

7 June 2014
United States 6–24 Scotland

Tonga

15 November 2014
Tonga 40 - 12 USA

8 November 2014
Georgia 9 - 23 Tonga

14 June 2014
Fiji 45 - 17 Tonga

7 June 2014
Samoa 18 - 18 Tonga

22 November 2013
Wales 17 - 7 Tonga

16 November 2013
France 38 - 18 Tonga


Last edited by George Carlin on Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:06 pm

Whoops.

RDW - can we merge threads?

Suggested team representatives are Ms Theresa Moore (born Nuku'alofa, Tonga) and current ISKA World Flyweight Champion, IKF European Flyweight Champion, WKL European Flyweight Champion and WBC UK Flyweight Champion in her weight class for Muay Thai, Ms Joanne Calderwood (born in Kilmarnock).


Last edited by George Carlin on Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : McKay request.)
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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:08 pm

Just seen this - sorry.

RDW - can you merge my thread with this one? I am too much of a tech-muppet to know how to do that.

Not that I just want to keep looking at the picture of Theresa Moore, or anything.Whistle
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Post by Notch Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:17 pm

There's not a whole lot else in Blackburn, West Lothian.
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Post by mckay1402 Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:23 pm

I would like to suggest MMA fighter Joanne Calderwood as she is actually from Kilmarnock where the match is being played...
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Post by tigertattie Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:31 pm

With the WC next year, I don't think we can afford to play about with the team too much, regardless of taking Tonga lightly or not!

Bennett is cabbaged so the backs will need played around with but i'd not make changes for changes sake!

I'd start Laidlaw as he and Russell need as much time together as possible! Russell can get a rest when Glasgow are playing with brain farting Meatball playing 10 for the weedge for a couple of weeks.
Laidlaw can be rested by his club if they so choose as I don't give a monkeys how they get on in the Jeff.

Harley and Jnr Gray may need to be rested so the Stroker and Swinson could be called up (assuming Swinson is fit)

I'd also say Ashe should get the third game. He can have a rest when the club game kicks off again too! If he is truley Knacked though, then Beattie would be my next choice.

We need continuity and momentum to go into the 6ns to put us n a decent place for the WC!
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Post by demosthenes Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:38 pm

I would expect that we will see some rotation / resting. We need to see how some other combinations do. So -

I don't know enough about the front row, so no comment.
Swinson if fit to replace one of the Gray brothers.
Beattie / Denton to replace Ashe. Other to bench.
Weir to start; Heathcote to bench.
Cuisiter to start
Dunbar and ??? I haven't seen enough of Taylor to comment, and much as I like Lamont, he isn't the answer going forward. Could be Russell & Dunbar?
I suppose Visser ought to get a game, although I would prefer to see someone with more commitment to the overall game.

Whilst ideally you wouldn't make all of those alterations in one go, would you rather try out alternatives to the A team against Tonga; or against England or Ireland?

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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:45 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I would like to suggest MMA fighter Joanne Calderwood as she is actually from Kilmarnock where the match is being played...
Done.
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Post by GunsGerms Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:53 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I would like to suggest MMA fighter Joanne Calderwood as she is actually from Kilmarnock where the match is being played...

Will it Aisling Daly v Joanne Calderwood next time Ireland play Scotland?

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Post by mckay1402 Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:53 pm

I feel so happy. She is pretty scary though
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Post by mckay1402 Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:56 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
mckay1402 wrote:I would like to suggest MMA fighter Joanne Calderwood as she is actually from Kilmarnock where the match is being played...

Will it Aisling Daly v Joanne Calderwood next time Ireland play Scotland?

Only one winner there...Don't fancy yours much...
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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:06 pm

I think I may stick to my Tongan lingerie model, if it's all the same with you.
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Post by mckay1402 Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:07 pm

George Carlin wrote:I think I may stick to my Tongan lingerie model, if it's all the same with you.

Where's your sense of adventure? Bet she's very flexible...
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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:20 pm

mckay1402 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I think I may stick to my Tongan lingerie model, if it's all the same with you.

Where's your sense of adventure?  Bet she's very flexible...
I would be very, very adventurous with Theresa.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:20 pm

demosthenes wrote:I would expect that we will see some rotation / resting.  We need to see how some other combinations do. So -

I don't know enough about the front row, so no comment.
Swinson if fit to replace one of the Gray brothers.  
Beattie / Denton to replace Ashe.  Other to bench.
Weir to start; Heathcote to bench.
Cuisiter to start
Dunbar and ???  I haven't seen enough of Taylor to comment, and much as I like Lamont, he isn't the answer going forward.  Could be Russell & Dunbar?
I suppose Visser ought to get a game, although I would prefer to see someone with more commitment to the overall game.

Whilst ideally you wouldn't make all of those alterations in one go, would you rather try out alternatives to the A team against Tonga; or against England or Ireland?

I disagree, this is a RWC year. Lets get our best guys out there and gelling as a team.

We need familiarity so I don't want to ring the changes and suffer a defeat to Tonga who will be up for this one 100% and rightly come here expecting to repat what they did at Pittodrie. No messing about get it as close to the team of the last few weeks as possible. We don't have the strength and depth of other teams so lets not kid ourselves otherwise.
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Post by RDW Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:24 pm

Merged

Here's me spending ages on a thread and GC ignores it and makes his own anyway Sad

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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:37 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Merged

Here's me spending ages on a thread and GC ignores it and makes his own anyway Sad
Sorry. If it's any consolation, yours is first.
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Post by RDW Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:44 pm

You swap them about? Thought I put yours first!

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Post by reallybored Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:52 pm

I'd like to see

15 - Hogg
14 - Seymour
13 - Taylor
12 - Dunbar
11 - Visser
10 - Russell
9   - Laidlaw
8   - Ashe
7   - Cowan
6   - Harley
5   - Gray
4   - Gray
3   - Murray / Cross
2   - Ford
1   - Grant

16 - Brown
17 - Dickinson
18 - Cross / Welsh
19 - Swinson
20 - Beattie
21 - Cusiter
22 - Weir
23 - Maitland

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Post by MacKnocked-on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:50 pm

reallybored wrote:I'd like to see

15 - Hogg
14 - Seymour
13 - Taylor
12 - Dunbar
11 - Visser
10 - Russell
9   - Laidlaw
8   - Ashe
7   - Cowan
6   - Harley
5   - Gray
4   - Gray
3   - Murray / Cross
2   - Ford
1   - Grant

16 - Brown
17 - Dickinson
18 - Cross / Welsh
19 - Swinson
20 - Beattie
21 - Cusiter
22 - Weir
23 - Maitland

It would be tough on Maitland or any of the backs to get dropped to accommodate Visser. I've a feeling Visser will struggle to get back in unless he can improve his defence, hate to think what he would have been like against the All Blacks. Nice problem for us to have now though, leaving out the Pro12 record try scorer.

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Post by BigGee Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:17 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
demosthenes wrote:I would expect that we will see some rotation / resting.  We need to see how some other combinations do. So -

I don't know enough about the front row, so no comment.
Swinson if fit to replace one of the Gray brothers.  
Beattie / Denton to replace Ashe.  Other to bench.
Weir to start; Heathcote to bench.
Cuisiter to start
Dunbar and ???  I haven't seen enough of Taylor to comment, and much as I like Lamont, he isn't the answer going forward.  Could be Russell & Dunbar?
I suppose Visser ought to get a game, although I would prefer to see someone with more commitment to the overall game.

Whilst ideally you wouldn't make all of those alterations in one go, would you rather try out alternatives to the A team against Tonga; or against England or Ireland?

I disagree, this is a RWC year. Lets get our best guys out there and gelling as a team.

We need familiarity so I don't want to ring the changes and suffer a defeat to Tonga who will be up for this one 100% and rightly come here expecting to repat what they did at Pittodrie. No messing about get it as close to the team of the last few weeks as possible. We don't have the strength and depth of other teams so lets not kid ourselves otherwise.

We are going to need a squad for the world cup though, not to mention any injuries. I think we will see a little gentle tinkering for this game, some caused by injury and also the need to see a few of the others. Some selections will probably be a combination of both of those reasons.

I wouls like to see Denton, Beattie, Cusiter and probably Visser start. These are not players that should weaken the team and most of them are likely to see some gametime during the 6N and in the world cup. There are probably a few others that could be pushing for a bench place as well, Heathcote and Ryan Grant spring to mind.

My main concern is what are we going to do about a second TH if Murray is not fit. We may know the answer to that pretty soon as they will have to call someone up to the squad if there are any doubts about him. The only other obvious fit one is Low, who does finally seem to have got a bit of game time with Exeter (though only on the bench). At the moment it is still a problem positon for us.


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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:03 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:You swap them about? Thought I put yours first!
The post that was chronologically first always precedes, young grasshopper. zen
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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:39 am

Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

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Post by Captain_Sensible Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:04 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

Makes sense. Must be a rare thing for a Test side to go through three consecutive matches with only one change to the starting XV. Hope Swinson’s back allows him to make it to the bench this time.

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Post by George Carlin Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:26 am

Shlong was the only back that the NZ Herald didn't want to set on fire for their disgraceful performance, so he must have done something right. Never have any argument with including Lamont - he is the most passionate player out there.

His opposite number is also likely to be about 27 stones or something so his ballast may well be needed in this game.
And to protect himself if he decides to risk his life by frequenting a Killie pub afterwards.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:56 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

This would be similar to my approach. I would go for a very small number of changes and look to let the team gel, with players sticking in their preferred positions wherever possible.

The only change I would make, unforced, would be to put either Beattie or Denton at 8 with the other on the bench. I think Ashe has done a fantastic job in the cirumstances, he's played less pro games than I've had hours sleep last night, but up against the heavy traffic of international rugby I don't think he has the power or aggression to carry effectively. His workrate, tackling and general work around the park is excellent though, and I've no doubt he'll make it as a top international player. But right now, at this moment, I think Denton or Beattie would do a better job in that ball carrying role.

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Post by Captain_Sensible Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:13 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

This would be similar to my approach. I would go for a very small number of changes and look to let the team gel, with players sticking in their preferred positions wherever possible.

The only change I would make, unforced, would be to put either Beattie or Denton at 8 with the other on the bench. I think Ashe has done a fantastic job in the cirumstances, he's played less pro games than I've had hours sleep last night, but up against the heavy traffic of international rugby I don't think he has the power or aggression to carry effectively. His workrate, tackling and general work around the park is excellent though, and I've no doubt he'll make it as a top international player. But right now, at this moment, I think Denton or Beattie would do a better job in that ball carrying role.

I kind of agree and kind of don’t agree with this post. Ashe’s work in defence has been superb over the last two games, as you say, and it is true that he hasn’t really made the massive carries we often see from Denton or Beattie.

However, I don’t think that is any slight on the guy. I think it’s more to do with how Vern uses him. A lot of his carries are close in to the ruck, often from static ball. He’s there to clean up possession and set up the next phase, sharing this role with Ford, Gray Jnr and the props. This allows Gray Snr to drift into wider channels, were he carries ball best. Beattie and Denton usually carry in the wider channels, which is why they look more explosive

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Post by tigertattie Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:22 am

Denton doesn't carry in wider channels!!! He stands away from the rucks and mauls so he doesn't get his hair in a mess and then looks for an oppertunity to showboat out with the backs but ends up being boshed by the oppositions tiny winger!
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:38 am

tigertattie wrote:Denton doesn't carry in wider channels!!! He stands away from the rucks and mauls so he doesn't get his hair in a mess and then looks for an oppertunity to showboat out with the backs but ends up being boshed by the oppositions tiny winger!

I'm assuming you are refering to JP Pieterson?

6ft 4
15st 9lb

Hardly a "Tiny" winger. Denton is a great carrier. The last 6 Nations he got a lot of stick for "Running away from his support" on this very board. I'm sorry but if you make a clean break, get tackled and turned over as far as I'm concerned that's not the fault of the player who burst away.

Ashe has played really well however I agree he doesn't carry as much as I would like my number 8 to carry. There must be a reason Strauss is the incumbent 8 at Glasgow and not Ashe, go work it out....

As for Denton he's a great number 8 and IMO the best number 8 currently at Scotland's disposal when fully fit. Ask yourself, when was the last time Beattie played well for Scotland?
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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:46 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

This would be similar to my approach. I would go for a very small number of changes and look to let the team gel, with players sticking in their preferred positions wherever possible.

The only change I would make, unforced, would be to put either Beattie or Denton at 8 with the other on the bench. I think Ashe has done a fantastic job in the cirumstances, he's played less pro games than I've had hours sleep last night, but up against the heavy traffic of international rugby I don't think he has the power or aggression to carry effectively. His workrate, tackling and general work around the park is excellent though, and I've no doubt he'll make it as a top international player. But right now, at this moment, I think Denton or Beattie would do a better job in that ball carrying role.

I kind of agree and kind of don’t agree with this post. Ashe’s work in defence has been superb over the last two games, as you say, and it is true that he hasn’t really made the massive carries we often see from Denton or Beattie.

However, I don’t think that is any slight on the guy. I think it’s more to do with how Vern uses him. A lot of his carries are close in to the ruck, often from static ball. He’s there to clean up possession and set up the next phase, sharing this role with Ford, Gray Jnr and the props. This allows Gray Snr to drift into wider channels, were he carries ball best. Beattie and Denton usually carry in the wider channels, which is why they look more explosive

I do agree that Vern shares the ball carrying duties around the pack, so you see far more of Ford (who looks a different player under the new regime), Dickinson and the Gray brothers carrying the ball, and less from the back row whose role is more to ensure continuity. However, there is a trend from both games which is where Ashe has been asked to carry, he has been shunted back rather too dramatically for my liking. His body position isn't quite right, and he's a little light for me. Bags of time for him to develop these things - just look at the vast improvements made by Rob Harley over the last 12 - 18 months - and his game is already excellent in a number of other respects, but I just think that Scotland would get more from Denton and Beattie at this point in time.

That said, I really don't want to sound too negative about Ashe. He's coming along fantastically well, and already looks a far better player than he did in the summer. He's in the right place at Glasgow as well. Jonny Gray and Rob Harley are setting an astonishingly good example of how to improve and develop and make it in international rugby. I thought the omission of Kelly Brown was a massive oversight by Vern (I would still include him ahead of Strokosch in the squad) however were Brown in the squad right now, I'd still pick Harley at 6.

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Post by Captain_Sensible Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:51 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Taylor has suggested in an interview that the only change will be Lamont coming in for Bennett

This would be similar to my approach. I would go for a very small number of changes and look to let the team gel, with players sticking in their preferred positions wherever possible.

The only change I would make, unforced, would be to put either Beattie or Denton at 8 with the other on the bench. I think Ashe has done a fantastic job in the cirumstances, he's played less pro games than I've had hours sleep last night, but up against the heavy traffic of international rugby I don't think he has the power or aggression to carry effectively. His workrate, tackling and general work around the park is excellent though, and I've no doubt he'll make it as a top international player. But right now, at this moment, I think Denton or Beattie would do a better job in that ball carrying role.

I kind of agree and kind of don’t agree with this post. Ashe’s work in defence has been superb over the last two games, as you say, and it is true that he hasn’t really made the massive carries we often see from Denton or Beattie.

However, I don’t think that is any slight on the guy. I think it’s more to do with how Vern uses him. A lot of his carries are close in to the ruck, often from static ball. He’s there to clean up possession and set up the next phase, sharing this role with Ford, Gray Jnr and the props. This allows Gray Snr to drift into wider channels, were he carries ball best. Beattie and Denton usually carry in the wider channels, which is why they look more explosive

I do agree that Vern shares the ball carrying duties around the pack, so you see far more of Ford (who looks a different player under the new regime), Dickinson and the Gray brothers carrying the ball, and less from the back row whose role is more to ensure continuity. However, there is a trend from both games which is where Ashe has been asked to carry, he has been shunted back rather too dramatically for my liking. His body position isn't quite right, and he's a little light for me. Bags of time for him to develop these things - just look at the vast improvements made by Rob Harley over the last 12 - 18 months - and his game is already excellent in a number of other respects, but I just think that Scotland would get more from Denton and Beattie at this point in time.

That said, I really don't want to sound too negative about Ashe. He's coming along fantastically well, and already looks a far better player than he did in the summer. He's in the right place at Glasgow as well. Jonny Gray and Rob Harley are setting an astonishingly good example of how to improve and develop and make it in international rugby. I thought the omission of Kelly Brown was a massive oversight by Vern (I would still include him ahead of Strokosch in the squad) however were Brown in the squad right now, I'd still pick Harley at 6.

On this we are definitely agreed. My man-love for Harley has reach unforeseen levels this season. He's brilliant at what he does, and he's finally getting the recognition from press and supporters in Scotland and elsewhere. Plus, he reads Dostoevsky in French. What a dude.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:02 pm

Where Jonny Gray and Rob Harley (and to a lesser extent Richie Gray) are really ripping up trees is in their ability not just to made an effective tackle, but to drive back the opposing player. This is both giving the Scotland defence time to regroup, but also pushing the offside line and giving Scotland momentum in defence. Against Argentina and New Zealand that is no mean feat. Ali Dickinson is another player who is putting in a real shift in the loose. He's a prominent contributor for a prop, and really puts in a shift.

It's the backline that still needs polish, but Finn Russell has been a big step in the right direction. I'm really looking forward to seeing Matt Scott slotting into this new regime, and I think Jackson will also benefit from a coaching set-up that doesn't just want him to hoof the ball away.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:04 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:
On this we are definitely agreed. My man-love for Harley has reach unforeseen levels this season. He's brilliant at what he does, and he's finally getting the recognition from press and supporters in Scotland and elsewhere. Plus, he reads Dostoevsky in French. What a dude.

I thought all Glaswegians did this.... Headscratch

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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:17 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
On this we are definitely agreed. My man-love for Harley has reach unforeseen levels this season. He's brilliant at what he does, and he's finally getting the recognition from press and supporters in Scotland and elsewhere. Plus, he reads Dostoevsky in French. What a dude.

I thought all Glaswegians did this.... Headscratch

He may read it, but does he understand any of it??

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Post by tigertattie Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:19 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Denton doesn't carry in wider channels!!! He stands away from the rucks and mauls so he doesn't get his hair in a mess and then looks for an oppertunity to showboat out with the backs but ends up being boshed by the oppositions tiny winger!

I'm assuming you are refering to JP Pieterson?

6ft 4
15st 9lb

Hardly a "Tiny" winger. Denton is a great carrier. The last 6 Nations he got a lot of stick for "Running away from his support" on this very board. I'm sorry but if you make a clean break, get tackled and turned over as far as I'm concerned that's not the fault of the player who burst away.

Ashe has played really well however I agree he doesn't carry as much as I would like my number 8 to carry. There must be a reason Strauss is the incumbent 8 at Glasgow and not Ashe, go work it out....

As for Denton he's a great number 8 and IMO the best number 8 currently at Scotland's disposal when fully fit. Ask yourself, when was the last time Beattie played well for Scotland?

I totally agree with you with the line breaks. If a player makes a break, then its the other players fault if they are not there to support the man making the break.

With Denton though, he doesn't actualy make many breaks as such. His metres gained stats come from him running back balls when the opposition kicks it away. For a man his size, he is often easily tackled by the other team when he runs the ball back. I'd much rather see the ball given to one of our back three to run back at them to leave Denton to do more of the proper work in the tighter areas. When Dento does do a carry, he very seldomly breaks the gain line! I'd give my right nut to see Ally Hogg back at No 8, making it over the gain line regularly.

In his last few games in a Scotland shirt, Denton has gone "missing" as they say. I've not looked at the stats, but I'd wager that if you look at the teams tacle stats, Ashe will have a higher percentage than Denton.
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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:26 pm

The problem with Denton is he NEVER paces and rarely steps, so defenders know what he's going to do now and are ready for it.

If he adds passing and offloads to his game he'll be a real weapon.

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Post by Majestic83 Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:36 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The problem with Denton is he NEVER paces and rarely steps, so defenders know what he's going to do now and are ready for it.

If he adds passing and offloads to his game he'll be a real weapon.

His passing is very poor for someone at his level and he never really seems to offload or try too. He could do with some special 1 on 1 coaching in these areas to try get more out of him.
When he was with the U20s at the world cup(in japan I think) they made him walk around the whole time carrying a rugby because they felt his handling was very poor.

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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:39 pm

The other problem with Denton is that he doesn't think there's anything wrong - someone tweeted him recently saying if he learnt to pass and targeted the gaps instead of running into people he'll be a much better player.

He replied saying something along the lines of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'

Tell that to Kieran Reid, Parisee etc - if they had that attitude I'm sure they wouldn't be where they are today.

Hopefully big Vern will sort him out.

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Post by Majestic83 Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:42 pm

For the game against Tonga I don't think we can take them lightly at all and tinker lots with the starting line up. They had a good win at the weekend and now being less than a year out from the world cup we want our best xv to be playing together as much as possible.
Bennett is probably going to be the only player that will miss out through injury. Obviously not a long term solution but I would stick Lamont in at 13. He did well against the all blacks there and is the type of player we will need in defence against some of the big tongan backs.
The rest of the XV I would stick with, only player I'd be tempted to change would be Adam Ashe at no8. I think he has played well but I still don't think he is powerful enough yet as when he did carry and take the ball into contact against Argentina and NZ he was driven back on quite a few occasions.
To replace Lamont on the bench I would bring in Duncan Taylor, he has played well for Saracens this season and think we need to see him again for Scotland to see if he really is up to international standard or just a good club player.
I would also drop Gordon Reid and have Ryan Grant on the bench and bring in Swinson for Denton to cover 2nd row.

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Post by Majestic83 Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:46 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The other problem with Denton is that he doesn't think there's anything wrong - someone tweeted him recently saying if he learnt to pass and targeted the gaps instead of running into people he'll be a much better player.

He replied saying something along the lines of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'

Tell that to Kieran Reid, Parisee etc - if they had that attitude I'm sure they wouldn't be where they are today.

Hopefully big Vern will sort him out.

Yep think with Denton there is a bit of an ego issue, I know my mate who did the media for Edinburgh until recently said he was a bit of a f***y. Hopefully not making the starting line up for Scotland and big Vern taking the reigns will make a difference.

Quite like the no D**k heads policy the All Blacks have, seems to be very effective and something similar should and could be brought into the Scotland team, would certainly sort a few who have a fondness for themselves!

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:50 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The other problem with Denton is that he doesn't think there's anything wrong - someone tweeted him recently saying if he learnt to pass and targeted the gaps instead of running into people he'll be a much better player.

He replied saying something along the lines of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'

Tell that to Kieran Reid, Parisee etc - if they had that attitude I'm sure they wouldn't be where they are today.

Hopefully big Vern will sort him out.

If that's his attitude then I'm sorry, but he should be nowhere near Edinburgh, nevermind Scotland.

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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:52 pm

Of course this might be unfair on Denton - he might be working hard on it and he only said that to try and be smart with the person telling him what to do...

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Post by EWT Spoons Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:59 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The other problem with Denton is that he doesn't think there's anything wrong - someone tweeted him recently saying if he learnt to pass and targeted the gaps instead of running into people he'll be a much better player.

He replied saying something along the lines of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'

Tell that to Kieran Reid, Parisee etc - if they had that attitude I'm sure they wouldn't be where they are today.

Hopefully big Vern will sort him out.

Not totally sure about that, just to offer a differing view as I remember commenting on this at the time, he seems to be aware of his shortcomings (or at least was aware) and is working on them.

Denton chat

Interview with Dents wrote:Edinburgh back-row David Denton is planning to sharpen up his passing game after admitting injury has knocked him off his stride.
TweetDenton is playing a major role for both club and country this season, with Scott Johnson recalling him into Scotland's starting XV to face France at Murrayfield on Saturday.
However, ever since suffering a knee injury with Edinburgh in RaboDirect PRO12 action against Scarlets last March, the 24-year-old concedes his offloading has needed work.

The injury ruled him out until June and while he has rediscovered fine form - having started at No.8 in Tests against Ireland and England this year - the back-row's full focus is on improvement.

"What I've learned is not to change who you are as a player," Denton told The Scotsman. "My strengths are always going to be what they are. I've got to develop my so-called weaknesses - areas that I can improve.

"But I'm always going to be a player who is in the team to get us on the front foot and carry the ball.

"I would like to open up my offloading game a bit more. It's something I did have but, unfortunately, I seem to have lost it over the last couple of months - since I came back from my injury.

"It's something I need to rediscover, because it's an important part of the game."

Now that was earlier in the year (March) and maybe since then he's changed his mind, but I remember folk mentioning (might have just been me) that it was good he had identified his weaknesses and was working on them.

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Post by RDW Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:01 pm

Surely coaches will know this too, so I'd be flabbergasted if they weren't trying to coach it into his game.

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Post by alive555 Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:12 pm

My only gripe with denton is he tends to drift sideways as opposed to strauss who just runs straight steam

By the way can Ashe play flanker ?

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