If South Africa were to join Europe night games in SA night be the answer?

First topic message reminder :

Good morning Gents. The subject of the structure of Super Rugby often comes up on another site I frequent. The discussion inevitably moves towards many Aussie wanting to kick South Africa out of Super Rugby.

There are different formats that the Aussies in general suggest, but the one common theme is that South Africa must go.

And with that suggestion come the opinion that South Africa must join the European season. Personally I don't see this as an option due to the fact that our seasons do not align. However I want to see what the opinion is of the European rugby supporters.

Do you want South Africa involved in the European comps, if so which ones and how will it be accommodated.

Thanks.

Sorry Bilt I dont know the off season in SA. In NH, except for internationals, the off season is June/July/Aug (with those players not involved in the play offs getting most of May as well). July/Aug being preseason. Assuming SA is similar if there was a 4 month Period between the 2 ERCC blocks of games SA teams would be able to have 1 month off 2 months preseason 1 month domestic before 2nd ERCC block. If 5 months between blocks SA could have 2 months of domestic. I understand the point if SA teams were to come straight back into the 2nd ERCC block, do you think a month of domestic league would get SA teams up to speed. NH teams would be fresh but not played alot of games for the 1st block with SA teams possibly tired but played together with the oppostie for the 2nd block. Would be interesting to see if an advantage is gained?

Lowlandbrit wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:4 SA teams will not fly to Europe to play in the Challenge cup

If you structure it so the SA teams play their away games in blocks, I'd think the bigger issue would be teams wanting to fly there just to play the Griquas etc. and then head back.

Won't be playing the GRiquas, most likely the BUlls, SHarks, Stormers and CHeetahs/Lions

broadlandboy wrote:Sorry Bilt I dont know the off season in SA. In NH, except for internationals, the off season is June/July/Aug (with those players not involved in the play offs getting most of May as well). July/Aug being preseason. Assuming SA is similar if there was a 4 month Period between the 2 ERCC blocks of games SA teams would be able to have 1 month off 2 months preseason 1 month domestic before 2nd ERCC block. If 5 months between blocks SA could have 2 months of domestic. I understand the point if SA teams were to come straight back into the 2nd ERCC block, do you think a month of domestic league would get SA teams up to speed. NH teams would be fresh but not played alot of games for the 1st block with SA teams possibly tired but played together with the oppostie for the 2nd block. Would be interesting to see if an advantage is gained?

Two blocks is impractical from our perspective, tell me when is the best time to set aside 10 weeks for the ERCC.

Bilt, Think Low meant for the Challenge Cup (2nd tier) not Champions(top tier) or do you think SA would only be interested in the top comp?
Possibly mid Aug/Sep/Oct but would be against RC most years or World cup or end March/April/May/begining of June against June internationals.
IMHO the sponsers like the present ERCC set up as it gives them a presense throughout the season rather than in a 10 week block.

Bilt in an earlier post you said The 6N/RC & November tours should be unmovable yet IIRC this years RC is being moved for the World Cup. Could you see the RC being moved so that it wouldnt clash with a World Cup but have a set place in the season. IMHO I cannot see the 6N moving as it generates alot of money to the 6N Unions as it doesnt clash with many other sporting events in the NH. The host cities like it as it brings alot of people in during a usually quite time for tourists it also gives us something to look forward to in Jan

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, Think Low meant for the Challenge Cup (2nd tier) not Champions(top tier)

Yeah, I thought geoff was talking about having teams in both tiers.

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, Think Low meant for the Challenge Cup (2nd tier) not Champions(top tier) or do you think SA would only be interested in the top comp?
Possibly mid Aug/Sep/Oct but would be against RC most years or World cup or end March/April/May/begining of June against June internationals.
IMHO the sponsers like the present ERCC set up as it gives them a presense throughout the season rather than in a 10 week block.

I don't know much about the challenge cup, is that played concurrently with the European Champions Cup, for example are the the teams from the AP, Rabo and Top 14 that don't qualify for the ERCC?

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt in an earlier post you said The 6N/RC & November tours should be unmovable yet IIRC this years RC is being moved for the World Cup. Could you see the RC being moved so that it wouldnt clash with a World Cup but have a set place in the season. IMHO I cannot see the 6N moving as it generates alot of money to the 6N Unions as it doesnt clash with many other sporting events in the NH. The host cities like it as it brings alot of people in during a usually quite time for tourists it also gives us something to look forward to in Jan

I am sure it can be moved if there is agreement between SA, OZ, ARG and NZ

Biltong wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, Think Low meant for the Challenge Cup (2nd tier) not Champions(top tier) or do you think SA would only be interested in the top comp?
Possibly mid Aug/Sep/Oct but would be against RC most years or World cup or end March/April/May/begining of June against June internationals.
IMHO the sponsers like the present ERCC set up as it gives them a presense throughout the season rather than in a 10 week block.

I don't know much about the challenge cup, is that played concurrently with the European Champions Cup, for example are the the teams from the AP, Rabo and Top 14 that don't qualify for the ERCC?

Yep, so all the remaining teams from the 3 main leagues and 2 from a qualifying competition amongst the other European sides.

Yes Bilt the Challenge Cup is the 2nd Teir comp for those teams that dont qualify for the Champions Cup from the Top14/Pro12/Aviva + 2 other teams from Europe

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, Think Low meant for the Challenge Cup (2nd tier) not Champions(top tier) or do you think SA would only be interested in the top comp?
Possibly mid Aug/Sep/Oct but would be against RC most years or World cup or end March/April/May/begining of June against June internationals.
IMHO the sponsers like the present ERCC set up as it gives them a presense throughout the season rather than in a 10 week block.

I don't know much about the challenge cup, is that played concurrently with the European Champions Cup, for example are the the teams from the AP, Rabo and Top 14 that don't qualify for the ERCC?

Yep, so all the remaining teams from the 3 main leagues and 2 from a qualifying competition amongst the other European sides.

Ah, OK, that makes sense, so if 4 Currie Cup teams progress to the top tier than 4 can play in the second tier, that should benefit the SA teams to earn more money.

broadlandboy wrote:Yes Bilt the Challenge Cup is the 2nd Teir comp for those teams that dont qualify for the Champions Cup from the Top14/Pro12/Aviva + 2 other teams from Europe

Thanks mate, now we just need to find a ten week window.

Yep finding that 10 week period is the problem, hence my proposal for 2 5 week blocks

The problem is that for the European teams they will be flying out to South Africa for one game. And then potentially playing a game before and after.

HammerofThunor wrote:The problem is that for the European teams they will be flying out to South Africa for one game. And then potentially playing a game before and after.

I would think the change of environment and conditions would be enjoyable to them.

Bilt, How many teams could SA provide for a domestic league? In the NH at least 12 as it gives 11 home games for financial viabilty

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, How many teams could SA provide for a domestic league? In the NH at least 12 as it gives 11 home games for financial viabilty

We have 14 provincial Unions, currently they play 8 teams in the premier competition and 6 in the 1st division.

The reason is two fold, not enough money for the smaller unions to go around in order to retain players and time constraints as there isn't much time after the Super XV.

Bilt,Sorry to keep asking questions but would like to see if possible to make it work as I would like to see it happen.
Would you like The Currie Cup to become a domestic league like the Top14/Aviva with home & away games then possible playoffs? Do you think there would be enough interest in such a competion in SA?
Would you prefer to have a 14 team league or a reduced number of teams if so how many?
When would the prefered period be to play the Currie Cup?

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt,Sorry to keep asking questions but would like to see if possible to make it work as I would like to see it happen.
Would you like The Currie Cup to become a domestic league like the Top14/Aviva with home & away games then possible playoffs? Do you think there would be enough interest in such a competion in SA?
Would you prefer to have a 14 team league or a reduced number of teams if so how many?
When would the prefered period be to play the Currie Cup?

Yes, absolutely, I have been advocating that for some time now.

Financially we can start with 8 teams and then add a team a year.

If the ERCC is played in the second half of the year we can play the Currie Cup first, or the alternative can happen.

Personally, I'd prefer that the premiership to be played before Europe and used for qualification. That way the teams that did well that year are in Europe that year.

Well thanks for all the feedback guys, I appreciate it.

We've just got the ERCC firing on all cylinders and providing great rugby and you want to change it all, biltong? Shame on you!

Just checking mate

If as it seems SA could support a domestic league IMHO the way for those teams to get cross Union competition would be to join the ERCC as they would have a similar situation to France & England where the cross union comp would have equal importance to the domestic comp.
The problems to solve would be when to play it? Personally I can not see it played in one block, I quite like that it is split as it lengthens the time to enjoy it. Distance isn't a big a problem as some think because is it much more than NFL teams travel to play?  & the bigger problem would be time zones which SA is only one away. I can't see playing domestic then ERCC working as trying to organize the ERCC within a month would be difficult. I don't think any of the problems are insurmountable with a little flexibility from all & is something I would like to see.
Bilt one consequence could be that your top teams get slightly weaker but the base would be broader.

broadlandboy wrote:If as it seems SA could support a domestic league IMHO the way for those teams to get cross Union competition would be to join the ERCC as they would have a similar situation to France & England where the cross union comp would have equal importance to the domestic comp.
The problems to solve would be when to play it? Personally I can not see it played in one block, I quite like that it is split as it lengthens the time to enjoy it. Distance isn't a big a problem as some think because is it much more than NFL teams travel to play?  & the bigger problem would be time zones which SA is only one away. I can't see playing domestic then ERCC working as trying to organize the ERCC within a month would be difficult. I don't think any of the problems are insurmountable with a little flexibility from all & is something I would like to see.
Bilt one consequence could be that your top teams get slightly weaker but the base would be broader.

Can you break down how you see the season then from a European perspective, then I can see if the SA season can work with that?

As for weakening the top teams, to be honest the depth of these teams may be affected a bit, but I rather see the best 8 players per position get game time than half of them stuck on the bench for most of the season. This way the overall depth and talent will improve, even if it takes a few years.

OK, you guys work out the schedule (which I remain free to criticise, because it is easier to criticise than create!).  

I think this would raise the profile of the Euro Rugby competition in the NH, probably significantly, and bring in brand new or re-awakened interest in SA as well.  Raising the profile would translate directly to increased commercial revenue and, therefore, funding across the board.   Potentially help SA keep a few more of their gents at home.  

Qualification in SA could be loosely the same as in the NH, approx. 50% of the teams in each league.  Details to be worked.

The travel is not an issue as most/all flights are overnight without any significant time change.  It is mostly the time change which causes havoc rather than the flights themselves.

If this is to eventuate and the Currie Cup grows to include all 14 their provinces then there is plenty of motivation for all th teams.

Traditionally we have the 5 (used to be six) top teams, but Super Rugby stuffed that up as all the players concentrated on playing for the top five franchises with the money.

So if the top four goes into ERCC and the next four to the ERCC secondary comp, anyone of the other ten teams can qualify for the second tier, that will certainly improve our depth.

Bilt, glad that you can see that there might be a weakening but see the positive of more players involved in matches.
I started to try to type out the season but thought I would add a link to the Tigers fixture list might be better
http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/1stxv_fixtures.php
IIRC the Top14 start mid Aug.
Pre season usually runs from a month after the players last competitive match with there being a 2 month break from games for international players after the June tours.
Hope this helps.
Agree with you Doc

broadlandboy, what is LVC?

Also, the schedule doesn't reflect the play off matches for the ERCC?

LVC is the LV cup a cross boarder comp with Wales but used as more of a development comp
ERCC quarters 4/5/6 April. Semis 17/18/19 April Final 2nd May

OK, let me see if this works.

It is much harder to schedule than you would think, but this should be workable.

Premiership Final is not going to take place during the 6 Nations. The LV cup can because it's effectively a development competition. Premiership not going to happen. Ad I see you have the CC semi final on the same day as an AI. Plus England have a 4th AI every other year (although that is up for discussion next year) and SA often seem to have them.

No solution at the minute.

HammerofThunor wrote:Premiership Final is not going to take place during the 6 Nations.  The LV cup can because it's effectively a development competition. Premiership not going to happen. Ad I see you have the CC semi final on the same day as an AI. Plus England have a 4th AI every other year (although that is up for discussion next year) and SA often seem to have them.

No solution at the minute.

Well I gave you a starting point, make it work

Are the international windows fixed?

I took it as fixed, but I don't think they are totally cast in stone.

Like Hammer not keen on finals being played during Internationals(I want the best players available for them)
How adverse are you to splitting the comps into blocks?
Would you be open to your off season being weeks 45 to 51?

The problems are numerous when trying to find a window for the ercc.

The big issue about our off season is the heat over dec and jan, it will be murder to play rugby during that period.

I actually tried to break it up in blocks, but believe me it is tough to do.

This is just a template, you can kick it around and see what you can come up with.

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Or just go back to 24 teams in 6 pools (now 5 pools).

Sin é wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Or just go back to 24 teams in 6 pools (now 5 pools).

What - and show the anglofrench argument that it had to be reduced in numbers for the hypocritical humbug it was?

Already pointed out to you TJ. The numbers were dropped due to the lack of competative teams. I'd guess that the best 4 South Africa teams would be better than the Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre and Connacht.

i have to admit i dont understand how the Aussies have the clout to pressure SA out of super rugby, when rugby union is at best the 4th most popular sport in a country with a fraction of the population of SA. And probably not even 5% of the player and supporter base. Does Murdoch let the ARU dictate terms to everyone else?

Personally i would love to see the top 4 SA teams in the ERCC. Like everyone else they would have to qualify based on league position in their domestic cup or competition the previous season. However the big big stumbling blocks will be those unions whose existence depends on the AIs and summer tours, as they will clearly veto any change to the club calendars that impacts on their revenue streams.

The ARU doesn't have the power to do anything, I started this thread to feel the waters in case we want to come north.

The Aussie supporters want a NZ and OZ trans tasman comp.

HammerofThunor wrote:Already pointed out to you TJ. The numbers were dropped due to the lack of competative teams. I'd guess that the best 4 South Africa teams would be better than the Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre and Connacht.

Its gone too far the other way now. Absolutely laughable that 3 semifinalists (for the last 2 years) should end up in the same pool! You'd have to feel for Saracens who was a finalist and won their league. Some teams are good league teams, some teams are good cup teams.

Biltong wrote:The ARU doesn't have the power to do anything, I started this thread to feel the waters in case we want to come north.

The Aussie supporters want a NZ and OZ trans tasman comp.

Biltong - isn't SA always using the NH as a threat to keep the other two Unions in line?

Sin é wrote:

Biltong wrote:The ARU doesn't have the power to do anything, I started this thread to feel the waters in case we want to come north.

The Aussie supporters want a NZ and OZ trans tasman comp.

Biltong - isn't SA always using the NH as a threat to keep the other two Unions in line?

They did use it when they negotiated the last time. What they should rather do is stop sharing our revenue.

Biltong wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Biltong wrote:The ARU doesn't have the power to do anything, I started this thread to feel the waters in case we want to come north.

The Aussie supporters want a NZ and OZ trans tasman comp.

Biltong - isn't SA always using the NH as a threat to keep the other two Unions in line?

They did use it when they negotiated the last time. What they should rather do is stop sharing our revenue.

I can see the English, French and SA clubs maybe wanting to do something. The English & French just want to kill off everyone else that doesn't have a large population.

Bilt, from my visits to SA and seeing rugby there, i think SA rugby would not suffer from completely dropping Super Rugby and focusing domestically. SA prob plays what, 12 full tests a year anyway? plenty of highest calibre rugby. Totally different from the apartheid years.

then after a year or two on your own club-wise, i am sure the european clubs would love to see the best of the SA clubs in their top competition.

would be interesting to see how the economics for NZ and Aus rugby work if SA club rugby started sharing the revenues and audiences with England, France, Ireland, etc, instead.

quinsforever wrote:Bilt, from my visits to SA and seeing rugby there, i think SA rugby would not suffer from completely dropping Super Rugby and focusing domestically. SA prob plays what, 12 full tests a year anyway? plenty of highest calibre rugby. Totally different from the apartheid years.

then after a year or two on your own club-wise, i am sure the european clubs would love to see the best of the SA clubs in their top competition.

would be interesting to see how the economics for NZ and Aus rugby work if SA club rugby started sharing the revenues and audiences with England, France, Ireland, etc, instead.

Quins my first choice is for us to go completely on our own, but I have been told by so many we should join Europe that I thought I will give it some consideration.

Quinners, the standard of SA rugby dropped during the sporting ban under apartheid. Not playing Super Rugby & Tri Nations would weaken SH rugby.