Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

[BamBam]

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[gregortree]

My godson works in a sex toys business. I'll ask him to recommend something.

[lostinwales]

Mick cleary obviously has some unorthodox views on fatherhood

[Breadvan]

Mike brown is going to be walking around pretty uncomfortably then...

[doctor_grey]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

Brown has to do........exactly what?  I always thought he was kind of a big d*ck, but really now...........

This is the sentence in full

Brown has to play father figure to his wings and penetrate himself.

Mick Cleary, eh? He must be into some pretty weird sh*t, eh boys?

[Guest]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

Brown has to do........exactly what?  I always thought he was kind of a big d*ck, but really now...........

This is the sentence in full

Brown has to play father figure to his wings and penetrate himself.

Mick Cleary, eh?  He must be into some pretty weird sh*t, eh boys?  

I've now got a mental image of Brown as a massive bird, like Foghorn Leghorn, trying to do something sordid with his wings and his backside. Damn you Cleary (and my imagination!).

[maestegmafia]

As to any relevance to the match later in the year?

Big fat zero.

England have not won a competition since before the last RWC.

[maestegmafia]

So Hartley is a poor scrummager, can't deal with any opposition scrummager? Or is every single team he faces cheating?

Let just suggest That at least some of the opposition were not cheating, the Hartley is breaking the laws of Scrummaging by standing up before the scrum is finished.

And so the "fun" begins...

Look, you're the one who's claiming Hartley keeps popping up and not being penalised. All I have done is point out that there's a legitimate reason in the Laws why a ref might choose not to penalise him.

So since they consistently choose not to penalise him, one of four things must be true:
1) All opposing front rows are consistently cheating in driving Hartley up, and the refs are consistently spotting this
2) All refs are conspiring with Hartley to give him the benefit of the doubt
3) The IRB has achieved consistent refereeing incompetence with regard to this particular offence (and this particular player), despite the evidence of widespread inconsistency in most other aspects of the scrum
4) You are overexaggerating this for (supposedly) comic effect.

Take your pick.

I asked if anyone could post a video of a scrum where Hartley doesn't pop up...!

No one has.

[Gwlad]

So Hartley is a poor scrummager, can't deal with any opposition scrummager? Or is every single team he faces cheating?

Let just suggest That at least some of the opposition were not cheating, the Hartley is breaking the laws of Scrummaging by standing up before the scrum is finished.

And so the "fun" begins...

Look, you're the one who's claiming Hartley keeps popping up and not being penalised. All I have done is point out that there's a legitimate reason in the Laws why a ref might choose not to penalise him.

So since they consistently choose not to penalise him, one of four things must be true:
1) All opposing front rows are consistently cheating in driving Hartley up, and the refs are consistently spotting this
2) All refs are conspiring with Hartley to give him the benefit of the doubt
3) The IRB has achieved consistent refereeing incompetence with regard to this particular offence (and this particular player), despite the evidence of widespread inconsistency in most other aspects of the scrum
4) You are overexaggerating this for (supposedly) comic effect.

Take your pick.

I asked if anyone could post a video of a scrum where Hartley doesn't pop up...!

No one has.

He only pops us to see if he got a red or a yellow.

[maestegmafia]

So Hartley is a poor scrummager, can't deal with any opposition scrummager? Or is every single team he faces cheating?

Let just suggest That at least some of the opposition were not cheating, the Hartley is breaking the laws of Scrummaging by standing up before the scrum is finished.

And so the "fun" begins...

Look, you're the one who's claiming Hartley keeps popping up and not being penalised. All I have done is point out that there's a legitimate reason in the Laws why a ref might choose not to penalise him.

So since they consistently choose not to penalise him, one of four things must be true:
1) All opposing front rows are consistently cheating in driving Hartley up, and the refs are consistently spotting this
2) All refs are conspiring with Hartley to give him the benefit of the doubt
3) The IRB has achieved consistent refereeing incompetence with regard to this particular offence (and this particular player), despite the evidence of widespread inconsistency in most other aspects of the scrum
4) You are overexaggerating this for (supposedly) comic effect.

Take your pick.

I asked if anyone could post a video of a scrum where Hartley doesn't pop up...!

No one has.

He only pops us to see if he got a red or a yellow.

He's always up to something...! Dirty bugger

[doctor_grey]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker.  Dylan can do no wrong...........  

Aye he has a saintly reputation apart from the year he was absent from rugby doing penance...

And the purpose of penance?  To obtain forgiveness.  And I have forgiven his trespasses.  
I am sure he appreciates my assistance.

And the purpose of penance ?

To represent reflection.

Though I think at school we were told that after every reflection the likelihood of repeat behaviour should decrease.

I was taught in med school to review (ie, reflect upon) every action, every diagnosis, each and every surgical procedure to get it better the next time. So the likelihood of repeat behaviour goes up, not down.

As i said, I have forgiven Dylan, so all is good!

[maestegmafia]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker.  Dylan can do no wrong...........  

Aye he has a saintly reputation apart from the year he was absent from rugby doing penance...

And the purpose of penance?  To obtain forgiveness.  And I have forgiven his trespasses.  
I am sure he appreciates my assistance.

And the purpose of penance ?

To represent reflection.

Though I think at school we were told that after every reflection the likelihood of repeat behaviour should decrease.

I was taught in med school to review (ie, reflect upon) every action, every diagnosis, each and every surgical procedure to get it better the next time.  So the likelihood of repeat behaviour goes up, not down.  

As i said, I have forgiven Dylan, so all is good!

Well done Doc...!

To err is human, forgive is Devine...

[Rugby Fan]

If Wales are to win on Friday, what do we think is the most likely way they'll do it? Boot of Halfpenny, or some handling like we saw in 2013 at Cardiff (and the last Lion's Test)?

Similarly, if England prevail, what's their most likely route to victory? Wales gave away very few kickable penalties two years ago, so that's no clear route to points even if Ford has his eye in.

On that note, am I right in thinking that our backup kickers are on the bench, so we would need to sub Ford if he was misfiring, even if the rest of his game was in fair shape?

[Gwlad]

Believe Easter is the back up kicker, also covering lock and will be available to close the roof if required.

[majesticimperialman]

A lot of folks are saying that England will be fielding a weekend side due to injuries.

So if Wales win it will be because England have too many injuries.

But if England win (WITH A WEEKEND) side. Will that be because Wales felt sorry for England? Or That England played better (WITH) a weekend side than Wales did.

[George Carlin]

Believe Easter is the back up kicker, also covering lock and will be available to close the roof if required.

He can also pick things off high shelves for you.

To answer the question above, I think that the England pack's relative unfamiliarity and Wales' blitz defence will lead to a series of penalties which Halfpenny will kick. This will force England to eventually open up to chase the lead, which will lead to each side scoring a couple. Wales to edge it by about 10 points.

Or something completely different might happen.

[maestegmafia]

Both sides coaches are talking up the opposition as we know but I was wondering what you expect tactically from the opposition...?

[jelly]

Not sure if it counts as a weekend side due to the game being played on a Friday night - now if it was on Saturday there would be no argument.

[LordDowlais]

I have to laugh at what some people are saying on this thread ref Dylan Hartley. I'll tell you what, we should go with this, it is not Dylan Hartley's fault he stands up at EVERY scrum, it is everybody else's fault, as every body else are the one's that are cheating.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

Is your tongue poking out through your cheeks yet MM, they must be getting very worn by now.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

Brown has to do........exactly what?  I always thought he was kind of a big d*ck, but really now...........

This is the sentence in full

Brown has to play father figure to his wings and penetrate himself.

Not with them watching, surely!!!

Starting to get on some very dodgy ground here

[WELL-PAST-IT]

A lot of folks are saying that England will be fielding a weekend side due to injuries.

So if Wales win it will be because England have too many injuries.

But if England win (WITH A WEEKEND) side. Will that be because Wales felt sorry for England? Or That England played better (WITH) a weekend side than Wales did.

A suppose Friday night is technically the weekend, but playing a WEAKENED side on a Friday night sounds more like an end of season tour than the start of the 6N

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I have to laugh at what some people are saying on this thread ref Dylan Hartley. I'll tell you what, we should go with this, it is not Dylan Hartley's fault he stands up at EVERY scrum, it is everybody else's fault, as every body else are the one's that are cheating.

Fourth post on the trott, must be a record for me.

It would appear that the majority of the AP, and international refs agree with you LD, how very clever of you.

[BamBam]

As to any relevance to the match later in the year?

Big fat zero.

England have not won a competition since before the last RWC.

And Wales have never won the RWC. Its just as relevant

[TheRugbyMaster]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

[Breadvan]

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.


Comedy
Gold

[TightHEAD]

So the roof is going to be open, well I'm glad we've finally sorted that out.

Now its time for England to unleash its new weapon, 'The English Haka' I kid you not, reporters heard strange rhythmic chanting noises coming from Englands training pitch yesterday afternoon. Speculation is that the England team will do their own war dance pre Kick off on Friday unless the Welsh have any objections, if they do then England will perform their dance in the dressing room before hand.

[BamBam]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

Anyone sensing a ghostly presence?

[No 7&1/2]

I look forward to England Wales games, but not as much as I look forward to the stupid wums ending.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

A lot of folks are saying that England will be fielding a weekend side due to injuries.

So if Wales win it will be because England have too many injuries.

But if England win (WITH A WEEKEND) side. Will that be because Wales felt sorry for England? Or That England played better (WITH) a weekend side than Wales did.

Of course a weekend side is only good on a Saturday or Sunday to.

[TheRugbyMaster]

Is it different to the splendid display we saw from them last time in Cardif? That time used post match - with all rhythmically synchronised - hands on hips, heads bowed, fall to the knees and fists pound the welsh turf...?

[Breadvan]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

Agree. We're only missing 4 key players. Lawes, launchbury,Morgan,Manu. Talk of second string is inaccurate. If Eng did have those four players I'd be well confident of a win.

[TheRugbyMaster]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

Agree. We're only missing 4 key players. Lawes, launchbury,Morgan,Manu. Talk of second string is inaccurate. If Eng did have those four players I'd be well confident of a win.

In recent times having injuries has been nothing but a book for England. Time and time again the players brought in as cover have revealed themselves to be true world class. This time those added have the additional advantage of experience and a point to prove. It should be a cracker of a game with loads of talking points to follow.

[BamBam]

David Wilson or a fully fit Cole?
Wood?

The bench has been weakened considerably too

[TheRugbyMaster]

Morgan out is a loss, but for so long Lancaster has used the two big lumps who are very similar as cover for each other. It's a chance to see a different balance in the back row. For me Vunipola has better ball skills than Morgan anyway and might offer more in the way of clever off loads in the congested welsh rush defensive alignment.

[lostinwales]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

Anyone sensing a ghostly presence?

Now you mention it

[alive555]

An earlier post shows england only missing perhaps 3-4 first choice players. Most being a reflection of the lack of agreement on what constitutes "first choice". This is a cultural thing going back to Sir Clive who loved to paint himself the underdog by mentioning injured non first choice players who's status was elevated by injury.

Don't be fooled, this England side are world class from 1-15; anyone who's memory needs jogging need only look at how England all but beat New Zealand in tier own back yard with a team written off by most as "second string". The reality is that England have 30-40 of the best rugby players in the world and could fill several international teams with their fringe players who would walk into a number of sides.

England's third choice pack would start for Australia and a second reserve backline would oust Scotland's best.

WUM

whats englands third choice pack and what is englands second choice backline ?

[beshocked]

I do find it amusing that the Welsh posters are so worried about being labelled as favourites. Feeling the pressure?

Injuries can actually help a side because they force a coach to try out new options and try new tactics.

You would expect Wales are going to be hit by injuries at some point - will be they be able to cope?  Pool A  will be a bruising pool - England continue to build up their squad depth in anticipation.

If you lose 1st and 2nd choice options for Wales there's a huge drop down IMO.

If Wales had similar issues they would be on their knees begging for forgiveness - the excuses would be coming out thick and fast just like when there was that loss to Japan.

England in comparison can shrug off these injuries and I believe they can beat Wales with the right tactics and gameplan. It will be tough of course because Wales are a good side but a win is possible.

[gregortree]

WALES to unleash GatBall - again - or as Howley has just called it the 'unexpected'.
About as unexpected as the Spanish Inquisition.

[TightHEAD]

that loss to Japan.

That hardly gets mentioned these days. Japan lol.

[Poorfour]

The issue is much less about quality of players than about combinations and form. A pack without Launchbury, Lawes and Wood loses a bit in the air, though it gains a little in grunt. But Attwood and Kruis haven't played much together, and only a minority of the pack have ever played with Croft or Easter.

In the backs, it's an untried combination at 10-12-13 and there's a question over whether Burrell's form last weekend was a genuine dip or incipient concussion.

Most of the players in the XV would have a case for being first choice even if everyone was fully fit. The only clear cut cases are the locks, Wood over Haskell and possibly Corbs (if he ever does get fit) over Marler and Manu (if he ever does get fit) over Joseph - and of the ones who might get ousted all except Kruis you might expect to find in the XXIII.

England's issue, as it has been since Lancaster took over, is that it's another tournament and another squad who've not had much time together. That could cost us on Friday, but it might actually benefit England in the long run.

If you look forward to the eve of the RWC, Lancaster can go into RWC camp knowing that he can winnow the extended squad down to 30 based on fitness and form. He has used enough players - and enough of them have made the grade - that he has the option not to take a chance on injured players recovering fitness. He can focus the camp on combinations getting to know each other and crossing fingers that, say, Manu or Corbs or Morgan will be fit is an option rather than a necessity. There aren't many coaches who will be able to do that. Maybe Steve Hansen, but that's about it.

But right now, it's a pain in the butt. Possibly something to do with Mike Brown, if Cleary is to be believed.

[LordDowlais]

If you lose 1st and 2nd choice options for Wales there's a huge drop down IMO.

This is why we are saying that England have very good strength in depth, what is the problem with that ?

If Wales had England's injury list, I doubt we would be able to play in this 6N, but the fact that England DO have the best strengnth in depth, probably in the world, there really should not be any excuses comming from England.

Lastly, the Japan tour, that you always keep reminding us of, we not only had 3rd and 4th choice players out there, but we did not have our regular coaches out there either.

[TightHEAD]

Home advantage will be just too much for this thrown together injury hit England team to cope with.

Wales are huge favourites to win and win well.

[beshocked]

Gregortree Gatlandball is expected but stopping it is not straightforward.

The Welsh backs are big lads who take a bit of stopping even if it's only route one they know.

The power game in general has become a big part of rugby. It's why England will need to show a bit more guile. If they are not careful the likes of Ford,Watson,May and Joseph will be thrown around like ragdolls by the monsters facing them.


Lorddowlais no problem with acknowledging that England have good strength in depth but the absentees will still affect us - for the reasons poorfour points out.


If England was playing Japan our team would have strolled to wins. Plenty of coaches who could step up to the plate who are English. You lost to a coach combo of Eddie Jones (I know he's an Aussie) and Steve Borthwick.....


It's funny looking at coaches in the 6 nations.

England have a fully English coaching staff, Ireland,Wales and Scotland run by Kiwis, France and Italy run by Frenchmen.

Of course an Englishman is the mastermind of the Welsh defence too....you owe most of your success to an Englishman - don't forget it.

[TightHEAD]

England have a fully English coaching staff, Ireland,Wales and Scotland run by Kiwis,

'If you can't beat them then join them'  

or sign them to coach you!

[LordDowlais]

Wales are huge favourites to win and win well.

So you keep saying.

[TightHEAD]

Wales are huge favourites to win and win well.

So you keep saying.

What's wrong with saying that?

[BamBam]

Can't quite believe that we are all battling to prove that our side is the bigger pile of Poopie

[TightHEAD]

Pretty grim isn't it, being a RWC year and all.

[LordDowlais]

Wales are huge favourites to win and win well.

So you keep saying.

What's wrong with saying that?

So you honestly think Wales will win well ?

Also, not aimed at you TightHead, but after this debate, I never want to hear about how great Englands strength in depth is again, if as everyone on here is saying, it is not as good as everyone thinks, then that can go forever.

[lostinwales]

WALES to unleash GatBall - again - or as Howley has just called it the 'unexpected'.
About as unexpected as the Spanish Inquisition.

The (almost) exact same players as last year, and a group of players who have pretty much played the same way for years. A bruising team who can muscle past many teams even when playing poorly, but who finally managed to limp over the line against SA to record their first win over a SANZAR team for a very long time. A team that can be devastating when they play at their best but rarely do. A team we beat last time out. Its probably little different from the team we beat in the opening Friday night fixture four years ago.

They may pull one or two new plays out of the bag, and they will have spells when they cause us heaps of problems, but for the bulk of the game it will be the same old style, and we know what we have to do to counter it. (Actually doing so is another matter, but we have managed it, and yes 2 years ago we utterly failed to do so).

There are lots of questions over how England will play, and how well the new combinations will click, but if (and its a huge IF) they do click I am cautiously optimistic.

I'd be a lot less optimistic if there were some signs (e.g. different players) in the Welsh squad that would indicate the presence of a plan B, or the ability to adapt and play a different game if needed, but the only signs of anything different is an indication that they will try and send North and Cuthbert through the middle a bit more.

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