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Wlad v Holmes your thoughts

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Kareem61
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AdamT
mikeymax71
trottb
Strongback
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rapidringsroad
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monty junior
DuransHorse
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TRUSSMAN66
Hammersmith harrier
88Chris05
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 20 Mar 2015, 10:41 am

A few years ago I had this fantasy fight going to Holmes with ease but recently Wlad has been looking very solid as a nailed on great. It makes me wonder if Wlad is just too good as opposed to the division being very poor.

Today I see this fight going to Holmes but after a hard fought night with Holmes hitting the floor at some point but re-gathering himself a lot like he did against Snipes. Both have solid jabs as we know but Wlad's ability to stall a fight with the old Wlad and grab will make it frustrating for Holmes.

However Holmes had engaged in more wars then Wlad and would eventually find a way to penatrate Wlad's guard.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 20 Mar 2015, 10:59 am

Honestly, I can't even imagine a scenario where Wlad would win. If you match his reach even his hit and grab tactic can't be too successful.

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Post by 88Chris05 Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:05 am

Well as great as Larry's jab was, Witherspoon and Williams dented the idea that he could never lose the jab battle. Thinking about it logically, Wlad is probably going to cause Holmes plenty of problems as the taller man who likes to fight at range and who has a very good jab himself. Wlad's problems have been with bangers and guys who don't leave him alone, and Holmes doesn't particularly fit either bill. I think Wlad's leaning and spoiling when they do get close is going to frustrate Holmes a lot as well because again it's an area where he wasn't most comfortable - even Spinks shoved him back and kept him pretty much subdued in the inside exchanges in their first fight, albeit Holmes looked old in that one.

What Holmes has going for him here is his superior durability and stamina, as well as his adaptation skills. He had fantastic fitness which pulled him over the line more than once in difficult fights and while Wlad has perfected the one way of fighting, Holmes showed against Mercer and Norton that he could switch things up if they weren't going his way or slug and box depending on the situation.

Disagree with Scott in the sense that I can't see this being a straightforward win for Larry by any means, and Wlad beats him if they fight often enough in my eyes, but as a one-off fight I think Holmes does get over the line. Probably by a competitive / close decision having got on top later on although a late stoppage would be possible, too. Holmes generally made hard work of it, but he knew how to get the job done by hook or crook.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:11 am

Scottrf wrote:Honestly, I can't even imagine a scenario where Wlad would win. If you match his reach even his hit and grab tactic can't be too successful.

It will turn into one of those debates where everyone thinks Holmes wins comfortably but they'll try not showing bias towards Wlad and elevate his ability so he becomes a nightmare opponent.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:13 am

Half arsed pace, very few combinations, grabble after every punch (which isn't as easy if you have more distance to close as he would vs Holmes). There isn't much there which I can see to pull in a points win. Maybe I'd be more likely to back him if he'd ever had a difficult fight that he didn't win through masses of cheating. I don't think you can really expect Holmes to fear the power and back off like a lot of Wlad's opponents.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:17 am

Scottrf wrote:Half arsed pace, very few combinations, grabble after every punch (which isn't as easy if you have more distance to close as he would vs Holmes). There isn't much there which I can see to pull in a points win. Maybe I'd be more likely to back him if he'd ever had a difficult fight that he didn't win through masses of cheating. I don't think you can really expect Holmes to fear the power and back off like a lot of Wlad's opponents.

Nor can you expect a referee allowing such cheating in a fight that would invariably happen in America.

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Post by 88Chris05 Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:51 am

It's not about Holmes fearing Wlad's power, Scott. I didn't even mention Wlad's power in my initial post. But Holmes naturally liked to jab on the outside and circle around the ring in fights, which isn't a bad fit for Wladimir. He (Holmes) may well win the jab battle, and probably does, but the Witherspoon and Williams fights show that it's not a given. I'm not going to get too hung up on reach measurements - pretty sure a guy like Ward has been giving away reach to more or less every top fighter he's fought, but I'm yet to see him outjabbed or struggling to close the distance to get in close yet. Holmes wasn't particularly strong right in close so Wlad's spoiling style is likely to frustrate him or even tire him somewhat.

I did pick Holmes, but when lesser fighters than Wlad repeatedly gave him trouble I don't see why even suggesting that Wladimir makes it tough for him should be such a surprise to people. You can make any fight seem like a mistmatch if you're just going to focus on the negatives of one fighter and then flat out refuse to acknowledge any of the other guy's flaws or weaknesses. Who was the best opponent that Holmes beat without being put through the ringer a bit or having problems?
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 20 Mar 2015, 12:06 pm

88Chris05 wrote:It's not about Holmes fearing Wlad's power, Scott. I didn't even mention Wlad's power in my initial post. But Holmes naturally liked to jab on the outside and circle around the ring in fights, which isn't a bad fit for Wladimir. He (Holmes) may well win the jab battle, and probably does, but the Witherspoon and Williams fights show that it's not a given. I'm not going to get too hung up on reach measurements - pretty sure a guy like Ward has been giving away reach to more or less every top fighter he's fought, but I'm yet to see him outjabbed or struggling to close the distance to get in close yet. Holmes wasn't particularly strong right in close so Wlad's spoiling style is likely to frustrate him or even tire him somewhat.

I did pick Holmes, but when lesser fighters than Wlad repeatedly gave him trouble I don't see why even suggesting that Wladimir makes it tough for him should be such a surprise to people. You can make any fight seem like a mistmatch if you're just going to focus on the negatives of one fighter and then flat out refuse to acknowledge any of the other guy's flaws or weaknesses. Who was the best opponent that Holmes beat without being put through the ringer a bit or having problems?

Klitschko is 6 ft 6 in and is three inches taller than Holmes but they both have an 81 inch reach. Klitschko is a bit better defender but both fighters have exceptional jabs. Holmes has the tougher chin and that could ultimately decide the fight.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 20 Mar 2015, 12:44 pm

Holmes chin wasn't that good....Holmes struggled with poorer fighters than Wlad..

Wlad decision.

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri 20 Mar 2015, 12:55 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holmes chin wasn't that good....Holmes struggled with poorer fighters than Wlad..

Wlad decision.

Do you mean that or you winding scott up?

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Post by kingraf Fri 20 Mar 2015, 1:04 pm

Reckon he means it. Truss, despite crapping on Wlad nearly every time his name is mentioned, generally gives Wlad more nods against heavyweight ATGs then everyone else here. Can't really figure if that's because he secretly likes Little Brother, or because he thinks most heavyweights in history are generally sh.it
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 20 Mar 2015, 1:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holmes chin wasn't that good....Holmes struggled with poorer fighters than Wlad..

Wlad decision.

Stood up to Shavers TWICE

end of argument.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 20 Mar 2015, 1:10 pm

Holmes' recovery against Shavers is perhaps the best in any fight ever. How often does Wlad truly let loose? Average fighters have gone 12.

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Post by DuransHorse Fri 20 Mar 2015, 1:14 pm

This is interesting because I acknowledge that in one sense I don't rate Wlad, however he's been more bankable for the win in his fights than Mayweather in recent years. He wins with bags to spare. I lazily put a lot of this down to poor opposition and Wlad just having all the physical advantages along with the luxury of fighting in an era of slobs.

However, he now has a few interesting challenges coming up from big, hard hitting guys... but I still think he will face them and be the champ at 40. Aside from a boring style, he's just learnt to do what needs to be done to win, elevated himself well above the opposition, and most importantly, he does a lot well and not a lot poorly.

I would back Holmes, but with little conviction as I speculate that whilst Wlad appears to be the more manufactured boxer, he might just be a better athlete and more physically imposing and capable of the two. I need to see more of Wlad over the next couple of years when these new, better challengers come through to be sure. Right now I'll give him some benefits of the doubt and say he wins 2-3 in 10. That might change depending on how he deals with Wilder, Fury and maybe even Joshua.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 20 Mar 2015, 1:27 pm

Just think Wlad mugs him...

Decked off Snipes, badly hurt against Witherspoon and Weaver....

Larry didn't have a great chin...

Didn't have a great punch either...Spinks called him a slapper

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Post by monty junior Fri 20 Mar 2015, 6:30 pm

Klitschko KO in the first..  OK

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 20 Mar 2015, 7:01 pm

You probably believe that too Monty.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 20 Mar 2015, 7:48 pm

Holmes would give Wlad a bloody good hiding.

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Post by rapidringsroad Fri 20 Mar 2015, 8:49 pm

I tend to go for a close decision win for Wlad. Larry wasn't very impressive against Witherspoon and in the first Spinks fight he hardly threw a right all night.Vlad could even stop him.

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Post by monty junior Fri 20 Mar 2015, 9:02 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You probably believe that too Monty.

Just like you'll predict a 1st round KO the other way.

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Post by catchweight Fri 20 Mar 2015, 9:09 pm

Holmes is too sophisticated a fighter for Klitschkos one dimesnional routine

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 20 Mar 2015, 10:13 pm

Why are the Witherspoon and Spinks fights being brought up, they're nothing like Wlad, both are quicker for a start and he was on the other side of the hill by the time he fought Spinks. May as well chuck in the Wlad who was getting knocked out by Ross Purrity.

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Post by milkyboy Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:24 pm

Funnily enough, the wlad that got knocked out by puritty was all action himself. He just threw the kitchen sink at one of the best heavyweight chins since George chuvalo... And capitulated when he ran out of steam.

Holmes favourite obviously, but notwithstanding that wlad could get sparked early by any quality heavy, i think either klitschko is a hard night's work for history's finest. It might be one dimensional but its a big lump of a dimension to deal with.

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Post by catchweight Fri 20 Mar 2015, 11:40 pm

No need to remind Hammersmith Harrier about the Purrity fight. He has seen every fight in history 20 times. Even the pre television era ones or that one where one of the one of Diaz's sparked out Jesus Chavez with what transpired to be a a retirement due to a collapsed knee.

Klitschkos one dimension is fine for the era he is in. But against good, nevermind great heavyweights I think it gets exposed and Klitschko becomes bamboozled. He is like the guy who got his hands on the exam paper and learnt off all the answers by rota. Well and good when he knows the script and feels in control but change the questions and I think he gets lost fairly fast.

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Post by Strongback Sat 21 Mar 2015, 12:15 am

I think Klitscko is a hell of an athlete. The post Manny version is a bit of a riddle for any fighter. I mark him down on my lists because his opposition is so poor. It can't be denied though that it's almost impossible to lay a glove on him.

I've no idea what happens against Holmes. Holmes is going to need to use his foot speed very effectively.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 21 Mar 2015, 1:06 am

Thought Larry struggled with Bonecrusher...

Could have won if he believed...

Holmes always had trouble against good heavies....Biggest cherrypicker in heavy history....

So much crap on his record I'm glad he didn't get Rocky's number .

Only fought Spinks because he was a light heavy...

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Post by hazharrison Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:12 am

catchweight wrote:No need to remind Hammersmith Harrier about the Purrity fight. He has seen every fight in history 20 times. Even the pre television era ones or that one where one of the one of Diaz's sparked out Jesus Chavez with what transpired to be a a retirement due to a collapsed knee.

Klitschkos one dimension is fine for the era he is in. But against good, nevermind great heavyweights I think it gets exposed and Klitschko becomes bamboozled. He is like the guy who got his hands on the exam paper and learnt off all the answers by rota. Well and good when he knows the script and feels in control but change the questions and I think he gets lost fairly fast.

OK

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Post by hazharrison Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:13 am

Put Holmes on the same Shredded Wheat Klitschko is on and he'd likely stop him after boxing his ears off.

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Post by monty junior Sat 21 Mar 2015, 2:27 pm

Wlad has looked like that his entire career, even in the amateurs just filled out as all fighters do as they get older. As far as i know he doesn't drink, never walks about more than 10 pounds over his fighting weight, he's just a very well conditioned athlete who unlike 99% of boxers nowadays actually takes care of himself.

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Post by kingraf Sat 21 Mar 2015, 2:55 pm

He's also got a freaking doctorate in sports science. Willing to bet he's probably forgotten more about legally getting the best out of an athlete than the likes of Ariza will ever know
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Post by Scottrf Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:06 pm

His brother looked like an athlete in the amateurs too, but that wasn't all legal.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:10 pm

Mosley was a junior weightlifter in his youth as well if i'm not mistaken, clean as whistle he was; Jones, Tarver and Berto have always looked in top shape since their amateur days too.

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Post by trottb Sat 21 Mar 2015, 5:40 pm

Scottrf wrote:His brother looked like an athlete in the amateurs too, but that wasn't all legal.

Quick question Scott. Do you ever think of me? I'm sorry I left you at the alter, but I didn't think you were the one for me. Sorry.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat 21 Mar 2015, 5:48 pm

That's that for you. Someone modern could conceivably beat holmes and now he's a drug cheat. If you could get your head out of yesteryears arse you'd realise that Wlad has shown the exact characteristics of a natural athlete. When young he was bowling over the opponents then he met someone who could hit back and someone who could take his hits problems began to surface. One. His chin wasn't that good  and two his stamina wasn't that good.  So he switched to another less intensive style and cautious to the point of boredom. Now he is getting older he's gotten a little more aggressive perhaps because he finally understands what the fans will pay for or more likely the way he is blowing at the end of each short fight his age is catching up to him.

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Post by hazharrison Sat 21 Mar 2015, 7:28 pm

Scottrf wrote:His brother looked like an athlete in the amateurs too, but that wasn't all legal.

Correct. Vitali is a steroid cheat.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 21 Mar 2015, 7:47 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:That's that for you. Someone modern could conceivably beat holmes and now he's a drug cheat. If you could get your head out of yesteryears arse you'd realise that Wlad has shown the exact characteristics of a natural athlete. When young he was bowling over the opponents then he met someone who could hit back and someone who could take his hits problems began to surface. One. His chin wasn't that good  and two his stamina wasn't that good.  So he switched to another less intensive style and cautious to the point of boredom. Now he is getting older he's gotten a little more aggressive perhaps because he finally understands what the fans will pay for or more likely the way he is blowing at the end of each short fight his age is catching up to him.

I do not rate Wlad particularly highly but your first point does resonate fairly strongly, modern boxers will never be remembered as fondly as the old timers purely because they are modern. A select few will never acknowledge it but there is a very strong reality that Wlad would steamroll over Joe Louis, the difference in size is just too big and the difference in talent is not big enough to overcome it. It's almost blasphemous to suggest it and the mere mention will result in the usual retort of quoting expert opinion who are equally blinded by their rose tinted glasses.

Wlad is a good 250lb Heavyweight with a heavy jab, big big power in his right hand and reasonable speed, is a chinny 200lber really going to get inside his jab without folding?

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat 21 Mar 2015, 8:22 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:That's that for you. Someone modern could conceivably beat holmes and now he's a drug cheat. If you could get your head out of yesteryears arse you'd realise that Wlad has shown the exact characteristics of a natural athlete. When young he was bowling over the opponents then he met someone who could hit back and someone who could take his hits problems began to surface. One. His chin wasn't that good  and two his stamina wasn't that good.  So he switched to another less intensive style and cautious to the point of boredom. Now he is getting older he's gotten a little more aggressive perhaps because he finally understands what the fans will pay for or more likely the way he is blowing at the end of each short fight his age is catching up to him.

I do not rate Wlad particularly highly but your first point does resonate fairly strongly, modern boxers will never be remembered as fondly as the old timers purely because they are modern. A select few will never acknowledge it but there is a very strong reality that Wlad would steamroll over Joe Louis, the difference in size is just too big and the difference in talent is not big enough to overcome it. It's almost blasphemous to suggest it and the mere mention will result in the usual retort of quoting expert opinion who are equally blinded by their rose tinted glasses.

Wlad is a good 250lb Heavyweight with a heavy jab, big big power in his right hand and reasonable speed, is a chinny 200lber really going to get inside his jab without folding?

Possibly. Or the chinny 200 lb might set Wlad up with precise footwork slow as it is and a couple of combinations Wlad chin isn't great. It could go either way...my issue is with people discounting any chance that the guy with all the physical advantages might have. In a P4P sense Wlad doesn't come in the same planet b ut there is a large chance that the physical advantage Wlad had tied with good ability and excellent power might ...just might give him the win

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 21 Mar 2015, 8:26 pm

That footwork has to get him past a 5" reach disadvantage, a ramrod jab of a 250lb athlete who is surprisingly nimble on his feet, either way Louis isn't winning every time.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat 21 Mar 2015, 8:34 pm

No but neither is Wlad. Just think Wlad fares pretty well in a head to head with most greats of the yet gets bowled over by aggressive or intense power punchers 6 times out of 10 even if they aren't what we'd consider elite. A bit like Norton with less skill but more power.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 21 Mar 2015, 8:37 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:No but neither is Wlad. Just think Wlad fares pretty well in a head to head with most greats of the yet gets bowled over by aggressive or intense power punchers 6 times out of 10 even if they aren't what we'd consider elite. A bit like Norton with less skill but more power.

They have to be hitters of considerable size and/or chin though like Foreman, Liston, Tyson or Lewis. What people tend to forget with Wlad is that his opponents have to overcome him not the other way round, they have to get past his jab and he spend round after round pumping it out for all he cares.

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Post by mikeymax71 Sat 21 Mar 2015, 8:40 pm

Holmes' faster jab and better footwork will enable him to pip Wlad to the jab. Once he starts to then connect with his underrated (power wise) right hand Wlad will not be able to cope. Not a walk in the park but a mid rounds stoppage win for Holmes

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat 21 Mar 2015, 9:15 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:No but neither is Wlad. Just think Wlad fares pretty well in a head to head with most greats of the yet gets bowled over by aggressive or intense power punchers 6 times out of 10 even if they aren't what we'd consider elite. A bit like Norton with less skill but more power.

They have to be hitters of considerable size and/or chin though like Foreman, Liston, Tyson or Lewis. What people tend to forget with Wlad is that his opponents have to overcome him not the other way round, they have to get past his jab and he spend round after round pumping it out for all he cares.

Aye fair point. But there's always the chance someone like Lyle or Shavers may take him out. I guess there's a chance with alot of heavies ut Wlad perhaps more than most

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Post by catchweight Sat 21 Mar 2015, 11:39 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:No but neither is Wlad. Just think Wlad fares pretty well in a head to head with most greats of the yet gets bowled over by aggressive or intense power punchers 6 times out of 10 even if they aren't what we'd consider elite. A bit like Norton with less skill but more power.

They have to be hitters of considerable size and/or chin though like Foreman, Liston, Tyson or Lewis. What people tend to forget with Wlad is that his opponents have to overcome him not the other way round, they have to get past his jab and he spend round after round pumping it out for all he cares.

= Love sacks

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Post by hazharrison Sun 22 Mar 2015, 9:28 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:That's that for you. Someone modern could conceivably beat holmes and now he's a drug cheat. If you could get your head out of yesteryears arse you'd realise that Wlad has shown the exact characteristics of a natural athlete. When young he was bowling over the opponents then he met someone who could hit back and someone who could take his hits problems began to surface. One. His chin wasn't that good  and two his stamina wasn't that good.  So he switched to another less intensive style and cautious to the point of boredom. Now he is getting older he's gotten a little more aggressive perhaps because he finally understands what the fans will pay for or more likely the way he is blowing at the end of each short fight his age is catching up to him.

I do not rate Wlad particularly highly but your first point does resonate fairly strongly, modern boxers will never be remembered as fondly as the old timers purely because they are modern. A select few will never acknowledge it but there is a very strong reality that Wlad would steamroll over Joe Louis, the difference in size is just too big and the difference in talent is not big enough to overcome it. It's almost blasphemous to suggest it and the mere mention will result in the usual retort of quoting expert opinion who are equally blinded by their rose tinted glasses.

Wlad is a good 250lb Heavyweight with a heavy jab, big big power in his right hand and reasonable speed, is a chinny 200lber really going to get inside his jab without folding?

Louis would have Wlad on the run from the first bell and would tear him up inside whenever Klitschko attempted to hold. Louis would be so much quicker than the big Ukrainian, he'd land a big shot at some point and Louis rarely let fighters off the hook.

I'd give someone like Lewis or Holyfield a better chance - they're modern heavyweights, right?

Klitschko looked panicked when faced with Alexander goddam Povetkin and Tony bloody Thompson! Louis would terrify him and, unlike someone like Haye, Louis would throw punches in bunches.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 22 Mar 2015, 12:03 pm

Predictable respsonse and one that completely overlooks the point made, Louis isn't an indomitable beast that can chop down everyone, he'd be giving away 50lbs and a fair reach. Louis however fought in the 30's and 40's so is therefore a god.

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Post by hazharrison Sun 22 Mar 2015, 4:14 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Predictable respsonse and one that completely overlooks the point made, Louis isn't an indomitable beast that can chop down everyone, he'd be giving away 50lbs and a fair reach. Louis however fought in the 30's and 40's so is therefore a god.

Glad you liked my respsonse (?) bro. Louis would chop down Wlad - not because he fought way back when, but because he was a great fighter and Wlad isn't. Louis did well against big men - couldn't miss with those devastating salvos.

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Post by catchweight Sun 22 Mar 2015, 4:42 pm

Sure next week he will be saying that Louis knocks Klitschko out in three rounds just for the sake arguing with some one else.

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Post by AdamT Sun 22 Mar 2015, 7:58 pm

Tough fight. Post Manny version of Wlad could spoil his way to a close decision.

Think Vitali at his peak beats Holmes. He might have to come from behind to stop him.

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Post by Lance Sun 22 Mar 2015, 8:26 pm

Both would be cautious and respectful of the others power. Its hard to say which jab would be most affective. Wlad has the reach but Holmes had better timing.

I think after a slow start Holmes would use his better and more natural fighting brain to take over and time Wlad lunges and clinches.

Holmes tight decision

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 22 Mar 2015, 9:48 pm

Wlad's reach would be a problem for Larry............

The only two fighters Larry fought that were in Wlad's class Norton and Witherspoon were both contentious decisions........Witherspoon was a novice and Norton was past it..

Holmes record doesn't stand up well to close scrutiny..........

If he'd fought Page and Thomas instead of running to the IBF we'd know more........

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