Ulster vs Cardiff Blues

First topic message reminder :

Ulster v Cardiff Blues
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast
Friday 27th March 2015
19.35 Kick Off
Live on BBC 2 NI and BBC 2 Wales

Team News
Ulster- (15-9): L Ludik; C Gilroy, D Cave (Captain), S Olding, M Allen, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, D Tuohy, F Van der Merwe, I Henderson, C Ross, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, A Warwick, B Ross, R Diack, A N Other, P Marshall, I Humphreys, R Scholes.

Cardiff Blues- 15 Rhys Patchell, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Cory Allen, 12 Gavin Evans, 11Lucas Amorosino, 10 Gareth Anscombe, 9 Lloyd Williams; 1 Sam Hobbs, 2 Matthew Rees (c), 3 Adam Jones, 4 Jarrad Hoeata, 5 Lou Reed, 6 Josh Turnbull, 7 Ellis Jenkins, 8 Josh Navidi

Replacements: 16 Kristian Dacey, 17 Taufa'ao Filise, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Macauley Cook, 20 Manoa Vosawai, 21 Tavis Knoyle, 22 Gareth Davies, 23 Tom Isaacs

A discussion point for everything related to the game on Friday. Ulster should have Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding available start the game after injury.  Roger Wilson is unavailable after suspension due to personal reasons and Iain Henderson returns at blindside after coming off the bench for Ireland at the weekend.  

Ulster have next weekend off as they aren't in any European competition and will be looking to take a maximum 5 points from this before that ummm let's call it tricky run of fixtures we have coming up as we try and head for a home Semi Final.

Cardiff have The Dragons after this in the Challenge Cup Quarters and will want to win this for form and also to help avoid being the last placed Welsh team in the Pro 12.

Should be a cracking fixture

"And neither of you have answered my question as to why is it Ulster do not play on Sundays"

I can't say I know absolutely why but I suspect it has something to do with how sundays are treated in Northern Ireland where everything closes down. It may be to avoid DUP pickets outside the Ravespan or the fact there is a large Christian contingent in the squad. Perhaps it's a combination of all those or something altogether different.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers guys real classy reply's, we will just ignore the Wayne Barnes thread then shall we ?

You should, I certainly have.

But I just knew this would end up happening Notch, why is it OK for your countrymen to grizzle about officials, then when us Welsh do it, we get told we are driving people away from this forum ? Why is it us who need to put tin foil hats on ? I am sorry but there is more of a case for impartiality in the Pro12 than any other professional rugby set-up anywhere.

There's an assumption you're making that its 'OK' when anyone does it, which is seemingly based on nothing whatsoever. Technically its 'OK' when anyone does it, so long as it's not offensive. I personally think it makes whoever is doing it look like an absolute fool regardless of nationality, but if it's done without breaking any rules it won't be removed. You have a right to your opinion and other people have a right to point out how stupid it is. That thread about Wayne Barnes is embarrassing and ludicrous, but its also self-contained so people can avoid it completely; its much harder to do that in a match thread when other people are just trying to talk about the game.

You would be better realising that if you are going to come on here and drone on with the same paranoid nonsense every week people are going to find it dull and annoying. If thats how you want to spend your time, so be it, but if you're going to go down that road you had best grow thicker skin to deal with it.

But Notch at least I have a point, how can the Irish refs be impartial when they are employed by the provinces ? How can they be impartial when they train and work with the provinces ? As soon as you have anything to do with the sides that you are supposed to be impartial to outside of the league then you lose their right to be impartial, they are compromised, this sort of thing only happens within the Irish set-up, it does not happen anywhere else, and that is what makes it a farce, imagine it happened in any other sport, there would be mutiny.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31756135
Ulster play on Sundays (albeit not very well).


Regarding the Officials from Friday's Ulster v Blues did they make any major mistakes? Colin Charvis on commentary didn't think so regarding the Williams incident, although obviously all the partial Welsh supporters and Dale McIntosh thought it was a red. He wouldn't be the first coach (and won't be the last) to excuse another sub-standard performance by blaming the referee.

LordDowlais wrote:But Notch at least I have a point, how can the Irish refs be impartial when they are employed by the provinces ? How can they be impartial when they train and work with the provinces ?

The Welsh referees are employed by the WRU. Last I heard, Nigel Owens trains with the Ospreys.

LordDowlais wrote:But Notch at least I have a point, how can the Irish refs be impartial when they are employed by the provinces ? How can they be impartial when they train and work with the provinces ? As soon as you have anything to do with the sides that you are supposed to be impartial to outside of the league then you lose their right to be impartial, they are compromised, this sort of thing only happens within the Irish set-up, it does not happen anywhere else, and that is what makes it a farce, imagine it happened in any other sport, there would be mutiny.

Yeah, they train and work with the provinces inside your feverish imagination but in the real world? Not so much. Nor are they employed by the provinces, they are employed by the IRFU. The IRFU ultimately runs all rugby in Ireland but the professional sides are run as separate entities with their own management structures independent of the Union. Most referees are affiliated with the branches and the top 50 or so come under the aegis of the IRFU Refereeing Panel.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/referees/referee_information.php

It is the above organisation, a dedicated department within the IRFU, which is responsible for employing referees and all aspects of referees development including training etc. They have nothing to do with the provinces. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And with bubble burst the serial whinger dowlais slinked off

So you do not have referees that are assigned to the provinces ?

Just read that Notch, it does not say anything about referee employment in Ireland or where they are assigned. All that tells me is that there is a referee panel in Ireland and that the IRFU are dedicated with referee development, so do me a favour if you are going to post a link, put something on here that is relevant to the discussion.

So pointing out that the organisation which trains, oversees and selects referees in Ireland is completely independent from the provinces is not relevant to the discussion?

Well, well, well, I have just searched the world wide interweb, and I have learned that each "branch" has it's own set of referees. The Ulster "branch", the Leinster "branch", the Munster "branch" and the Connacht "branch", all these referees are controled by the "branch" they are under, and guess what, these referees are also in place in the Pro12 as well, I will not bother posting a link, it is all there for anybody to find on the WWW.

Notch wrote:

So pointing out that the organisation which trains, oversees and selects referees in Ireland is completely independent from the provinces is not relevant to the discussion?

Show me where that links tells me from which province each referee is assigned, you know, which "branch", every nation has a referee development scheme the same as the one that you have provided us all a link for, what that link does not say, is that when the referees are developed, they are assigned to and controlled by a province.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, well, I have just searched the world wide interweb, and I have learned that each "branch" has it's own set of referees. The Ulster "branch", the Leinster "branch", the Munster "branch" and the Connacht "branch", all these referees are controled by the "branch" they are under, and guess what, these referees are also in place in the Pro12 as well, I will not bother posting a link, it is all there for anybody to find on the WWW.

Sounds familiar... from my post earlier in this thread actually!

Notch wrote:Most referees are affiliated with the branches and the top 50 or so come under the aegis of the IRFU Refereeing Panel.

You do understand the difference between these sinister "branches" and the professional provinces? Or am I going to have to explain that to?

This is almost reaching the sitting back with popcorn stage. The delusion that exists in dowlais' world is a laugh and a half.
Accusing any professional official of match fixing the or merely being unfairly biased to one side due to personal interests or feelings is as laughable as it is illegal. I'm not sure whether I feel pity or scorn for anyone harbouring such feelings.

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, well, I have just searched the world wide interweb, and I have learned that each "branch" has it's own set of referees. The Ulster "branch", the Leinster "branch", the Munster "branch" and the Connacht "branch", all these referees are controled by the "branch" they are under, and guess what, these referees are also in place in the Pro12 as well, I will not bother posting a link, it is all there for anybody to find on the WWW.

Sounds familiar... from my post earlier in this thread actually!

Notch wrote:Most referees are affiliated with the branches and the top 50 or so come under the aegis of the IRFU Refereeing Panel.

You do understand the difference between these sinister "branches" and the professional provinces? Or am I going to have to explain that to?

Please do explain the difference to us. After all, we get annoyed when the 'outsiders' preach to us about our system without knowing, so it would be nice to have the technicalities explained to us about your system. I mean honestly what is the difference between the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and the Ulster Province?

Body responsible for Rugby in ******** is also involved in training rugby referees !!!!

Is this really a shock?

Is it different in the WRU or the RFU?

Who else would be responsible for the refs?

Pete330v2 wrote:This is almost reaching the sitting back with popcorn stage. The delusion that exists in dowlais' world is a laugh and a half.
Accusing any professional official of match fixing the or merely being unfairly biased to one side due to personal interests or feelings is as laughable as it is illegal. I'm not sure whether I feel pity or scorn for anyone harbouring such feelings.

But you feel the need to keep commenting on it to keep it going? Almost as if you really enjoy joining in with the pack and targeting the lone poster with an alternate view point. I tell you what I'm sure there is a name for people like that.

MrsP wrote:Body responsible for Rugby in ******** is also involved in training rugby referees !!!!

Is this really a shock?

Is it different in the WRU or the RFU?

Who else would be responsible for the refs?

Exactly.

Each of the referees are answerable to the "branch" they are under, ultimately each "branch" controls their refs. There seems to be a lot of skirting around and playing with words here but it all falls to one end game, the refs are answerable to the provinces they are under.

MrsP wrote:Body responsible for Rugby in ******** is also involved in training rugby referees !!!!

Is this really a shock?

Is it different in the WRU or the RFU?

Who else would be responsible for the refs?

This is what we are waiting for Notch to make clear. He is going to explain the difference between 'branches' and 'provinces', because we 'outsiders' genuinely don't know.

In the WRU and RFU systems it is clear, the refs are in no way at all officially linked with any team.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: I mean honestly what is the difference between the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and the Ulster Province?

The provinces are professional sides which are distinct organisations from each of the four provincial branches. Ulster Branch = body that administers grassroots rugby in Ulster. Ulster Rugby = Professional side. Two distinct things. Get it? Being affiliated to a Branch has nothing to do with the provinces.

Referees are not assigned to a province. LD has that completely bass ackwards. They start off refereeing in domestic rugby, the grassroots of the game, which is administered in each of the four provinces by the four branches of the IRFU. The best advance to the elite level, which is managed by the refereeing panel. They are still affiliated with rugby in their home province and may still referee at that lower level, but all appointments in professional are handled by the IRFU Referees Panel, which is an independent department within the IRFU.

At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces. The provinces have nothing to do with this at any point. They are completely separate from all the organisations mentioned above. But apparently differentiating between two different organisations with different names is skirting around and playing word games, so no doubt this isn't the end of this idiotic discussion...

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: I mean honestly what is the difference between the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and the Ulster Province?

The provinces are professional sides which are distinct organisations from each of the four provincial branches. Ulster Branch = body that administers grassroots rugby in Ulster. Ulster Rugby = Professional side. Two distinct things. Get it? Being affiliated to a Branch has nothing to do with the provinces.

Referees are not assigned to a province. LD has that completely bass ackwards. They start off refereeing in domestic rugby, the grassroots of the game, which is administered in each of the four provinces by the four branches of the IRFU. The best advance to the elite level, which is managed by the refereeing panel. They are still affiliated with rugby in their home province and may still referee at that lower level, but all appointments in professional are handled by the IRFU Referees Panel, which is an independent department within the IRFU.

At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces.

So the Ulster Province is not part of the Ulster Branch? I mean that as a serious question

Notch wrote:At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces..

So the referees do not hold training sessions with the provinces ? Come on now Notch, lets not tell lies about this. Also, on what planet are we supposed to believe that the provincial side has nothing to do with anything within the "branch" it calls home ?

[quote="Notch"]

ScarletSpiderman wrote:But apparently differentiating between two different organisations with different names is skirting around and playing word games, so no doubt this isn't the end of this idiotic discussion...

Tell us about it. The Welsh Regional fans have to deal with our regions being called Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli by posters and press a like, even though they are totally separate incidents.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: I mean honestly what is the difference between the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and the Ulster Province?

The provinces are professional sides which are distinct organisations from each of the four provincial branches. Ulster Branch = body that administers grassroots rugby in Ulster. Ulster Rugby = Professional side. Two distinct things. Get it? Being affiliated to a Branch has nothing to do with the provinces.

Referees are not assigned to a province. LD has that completely bass ackwards. They start off refereeing in domestic rugby, the grassroots of the game, which is administered in each of the four provinces by the four branches of the IRFU. The best advance to the elite level, which is managed by the refereeing panel. They are still affiliated with rugby in their home province and may still referee at that lower level, but all appointments in professional are handled by the IRFU Referees Panel, which is an independent department within the IRFU.

At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces.

So the Ulster Province is not part of the Ulster Branch?  I mean that as a serious question

No. They are separate entities. Obviously they work together to provide pathways for young players into the professional set-up through schools and club rugby, but the Branch is concerned with the administration of grassroots rugby in Ulster including the appointment of referees. The province is concerned with the running of the professional side.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces..

So the referees do not hold training sessions with the provinces ? Come on now Notch, lets not tell lies about this. Also, on what planet are we supposed to believe that the provincial side has nothing to do with anything within the "branch" it calls home ?

Obviously not on your home planet, which you will hopefully return too soon.

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces..

So the referees do not hold training sessions with the provinces ? Come on now Notch, lets not tell lies about this. Also, on what planet are we supposed to believe that the provincial side has nothing to do with anything within the "branch" it calls home ?

Obviously not on your home planet, which you will hopefully return too soon.

Personal insults, very classy. Pretty low for a normal poster, but really poor classless form for a mod.

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: I mean honestly what is the difference between the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and the Ulster Province?

The provinces are professional sides which are distinct organisations from each of the four provincial branches. Ulster Branch = body that administers grassroots rugby in Ulster. Ulster Rugby = Professional side. Two distinct things. Get it? Being affiliated to a Branch has nothing to do with the provinces.

Referees are not assigned to a province. LD has that completely bass ackwards. They start off refereeing in domestic rugby, the grassroots of the game, which is administered in each of the four provinces by the four branches of the IRFU. The best advance to the elite level, which is managed by the refereeing panel. They are still affiliated with rugby in their home province and may still referee at that lower level, but all appointments in professional are handled by the IRFU Referees Panel, which is an independent department within the IRFU.

At no point is there any overlap between the training of referees, the employment of referees and the provinces.

So the Ulster Province is not part of the Ulster Branch?  I mean that as a serious question

No. They are separate entities. Obviously they work together to provide pathways for young players into the professional set-up through schools and club rugby, but the Branch is concerned with the administration of grassroots rugby in Ulster including the appointment of referees. The province is concerned with the running of the professional side.

Right, ok. So when Irish fans say things like 'Why would Dudley Phillips want Munster to win? He is a Leinster ref' they mean that is 'Why would Dudley Phillips want the Munster Province to win? He is a Leinster Branch ref'. You have to admit that referring to the Province and Branch as Munster etc without using the word Branch or Province afterwards is going to confuse people.

Having heard that WRU refs train with certain teams, what is the difference?

Why is this an issue?

In the case in point an Italian/Romanian ref made the call. There are big screens at Ravenhill. The ref had the final say and got it wrong.

And, accusing refs of match fixing is pretty low too to be fair.

Pete330v2 wrote:"And neither of you have answered my question as to why is it Ulster do not play on Sundays"

I can't say I know absolutely why but I suspect it has something to do with how sundays are treated in Northern Ireland where everything closes down. It may be to avoid DUP pickets outside the Ravespan or the fact there is a large Christian contingent in the squad. Perhaps it's a combination of all those or something altogether different.

The Northern Ireland Football team played yesterday though so none of those can reasons valid, surely? The religious one especially.

Look at the stats:

By the end of the regular season, Ulster will not have played a home game on a sunday. 8 of the home fixtures will have been on a friday and 2 on a saturday. The remaining game is TBC. With away fixtures they will have played 2 games on a sunday (this disproves the religious reason).

Compare that with the Dragons:

Home fixtures on a friday: 2
Home fixtures on a saturday: 2
Home fixtures on a sunday: 5

Away fixtures on a Friday: 1
Away fixtures on a saturday: 4
Away fixtures on a sunday: 6

Not exactly a fair allocation of fixtures across both teams. Could it have something to do with the Welsh regions bringing in a far greater share of the TV money from the beeb and thus their games being on the demand of Scrum V and S4C? Maybe, but the lopsided fixture list is another reason why this league needs redoing.

This is not me saying the blues should have one, they were soundly beaten by Ulster in the first half due to our inept coaching and tactics. My gripe is that is increasingly becoming away that this league needs to change the way it approaches things or it will forever be seen as an inferior league to england/france.

I believe a league should also never allow itself to give people an opportunity to call bias (especially coaches, like Pat Lam) regarding the refereeing team. This is why i want full neutral teams, including at derby matches because calls of favouritism will be morseso if you have, for instance, Munster v Leinster and Munster win through a very dubious TMO try decision and the TMO is Dermot Moloney, chair of the Munster Association of Referees. He's been there TMO countless times before, is he truly independent?

How many Scottish and Italian refs would we need to acheive that?

MrsP wrote:And, accusing refs of match fixing is pretty low too to be fair.

Especially in the media, like Pat Lam. It still hasn't come out who were the people in 'high places' who sent him tixts after the game saying the linesman was wrong.

MrsP wrote:Having heard that WRU refs train with certain teams, what is the difference?

That has happened once, when the Ospreys wanted clarification on the laws and needed to be educated, the regions do not have weekly training sessions with the referees like the provinces do.

MrsP wrote:Having heard that WRU refs train with certain teams, what is the difference?

Why is this an issue?

In the case in point an Italian/Romanian ref made the call. There are big screens at Ravenhill. The ref had the final say and got it wrong.

And, accusing refs of match fixing is pretty low too to be fair.

That is too true.

The sad thing is that the whole thing with the Pro12 officials has spiralled to a point that nobody can comment on a poor decision made by a ref without the whole a witch hunt starting up. And to be fair, if there are enough people running you down for making a comment, damn straight you will defend yourself.

Its a bit like when I got up tight with you early on in the season about a certain player who shall not be mentioned. The pack versus the individual, is only going to end up with poop flinging as opposed to reasonable and calm debate.

LordDowlais wrote:

MrsP wrote:Having heard that WRU refs train with certain teams, what is the difference?

That has happened once, when the Ospreys wanted clarification on the laws and needed to be educated, the regions do not have weekly training sessions with the referees like the provinces do.

So you are saying that a ref has only trained with a Welsh team once but all the Irish provinces have refs attending their training sessions weekly?

Based on...?

MrsP wrote:Based on...?.

From what I have been told by people on here, apparently the likes of John Lacey are regularly in training with Munster.

Look I do not care that refs go training with players, what is getting me is, how the Irish on here cannot see how that would affect how impartial they may be. It's the same anywhere as soon as you fraternise with anything, you bring your neutrality into doubt.

So you heard on here that John Lacey trains with Munster and you get straight to all the irish refs having weekly training sessions with the pro team from their province?

But when Lucky says,

" Last I heard, Nigel Owens trains with the Ospreys."

It means that it only happened once?

MrsP wrote:So you heard on here that John Lacey trains with Munster and you get straight to all the irish refs having weekly training sessions with the pro team from their province?

But when Lucky says,

" Last I heard, Nigel Owens trains with the Ospreys."

It means that it only happened once?

Thats because I know it has only happened once.

Anyway, lets just get back to business, Nick Williams should have had a red card.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, lets just get back to business, Nick Williams should have had a red card.

I agree. It was similar to the incident that saw North stretchered off (and a red for Nathan Hughes), but IMO there was far more intent to injure in the hit.

Have you heard of the ref or TMO from Friday night training with Ulster?

Then why bring that up, especially if you don't care?

gcBlues wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Whether he will or not remains to be seen, this league has a habit of pandering to the favourites.

You really do just say stuff without concern for its relation to the real world, don't you?

I thought i heard the referee say something along the lines of "Yellow card unless you think different". That was the opportunity for the Ulster Referee TMO to say, no it's a straight red as he led with his forearm with no intention to bind on to the maul, but apparently he concurred with the ref? Odd that a big call was not made, you'd think an IRFU employee would ref fellow IRFU employees fairly, right?

Anyway, do you know why Ulster never play on Sundays? Seems a bit off to me.

What has the TMO got to do with the disciplinary panel?

You expressed doubts as to whether Williams would get banned, as we are "pandered to". I pointed out that we've had five players banned already this season. Not really evidence of being pandered to.

In response, you started making some comments about the TMO's employment status. Because you don't want to acknowledge your accusation about "pandering", in the face of actual facts, looks spurious if not paranoid.

And did we not decide, on another thread, that all the Sunday starts were to do with S4C's schedule?

MrsP wrote:Have you heard of the ref or TMO from Friday night training with Ulster?

Then why bring that up, especially if you don't care?

Given your health and safety background MrsP I would have thought you would be up in arms about it, I wonder why you are not mentioning this one though.

What do you think, was it malicious ? Did it deserve a red ?

Don Alfonso wrote:that all the Sunday starts were to do with S4C's schedule?.

The Ospreys were on Saturday night, on S4C. Although S4C could have something to do with it, you might have the people through the turnstile numbers, but we have the tele audience, apparently the money the WRU get from S4C/BBC is equivalent to getting 10,000 people for each home game.

You weren't reading very carefully then.

Malicious? I have no idea. Not a mind reader but I would not like to think that any player deliberately set out to harm another in that way.
Stupid? Yes.
Dangerous? Yes.
Red card? Yes.
Ban? Yes!

Although S4C could have something to do with it,"

I dare say they "could". Right. You find out about what part they play and then we'll work out what else influences these decisions.

I thought Owens was a Scarlets fan, yet he trains with the Ospreys but is not excluded from being an official in either Scarlets or Ospreys games. It's interesting that Lacey isn't allowed by the IRFU, nor indeed is any current Irish referee allowed to officiate in games involving their home branch.

Perhaps the WRU could take a lead from the IRFU to stop this potential conflict of interest?

The Great Aukster wrote:It's interesting that Lacey isn't allowed by the IRFU, nor indeed is any current Irish referee allowed to officiate in games involving their home branch.

Why would that be the case then TGA ? Because Notch would have us believe that the provinces have NOTHING to do with the branch.

So what you are telling us is the IRFU do not allow referees to ref certain Irish derbies just in case of bias ?

The IRFU clearly read some of the nonsense that gets posted on here!