Sir Clive Woodward..... Champion of Welsh Rugby

by gregortree Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Sir Clive Woodward defends Wales coach Warren Gatland

Warren Gatland has done an "amazing" job as Wales coach and does not deserve the criticism levelled at his playing style, says Sir Clive Woodward. Woodward also believes Wales, along with England and Ireland, will present a serious northern hemisphere challenge to the dominance of the Wallabies, New Zealand and South Africa in the 2015 World Cup, which gets under way in September.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:11 pm

Be careful with the Lord he might start sending you abusive and threatening mails on here, what a boobie.

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:20 pm

lostinwales wrote:prejudice?.

There's that word again, the English like to use that a lot don't they ? Twice in a thread I find myself at a bemusement.

Look, you are prejudiced, and strongly might I add, against anything Welsh or to do with Wales, you often will pick at me on here just because I am Welsh, you do not even know me, I am not prejudice of anything, I am cynical, and suspicious, but prejudice, no, sorry that just ain't me.

by Guest Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:24 pm

Spoiler:

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:prejudice?.

There's that word again, the English like to use that a lot don't they ? Twice in a thread I find myself at a bemusement.

Look, you are prejudiced, and strongly might I add, against anything Welsh or to do with Wales, you often will pick at me on here just because I am Welsh, you do not even know me, I am not prejudice of anything, I am cynical, and suspicious, but prejudice, no, sorry that just ain't me.

Different threads. I backed down and apologised. You said you're now judging people like Lawes Hibbard etc because of their big hits and think they're trying to hurt people, that's fair enough.

by lostinwales Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:prejudice?.

There's that word again, the English like to use that a lot don't they ? Twice in a thread I find myself at a bemusement.

Look, you are prejudiced, and strongly might I add, against anything Welsh or to do with Wales, you often will pick at me on here just because I am Welsh, you do not even know me, I am not prejudice of anything, I am cynical, and suspicious, but prejudice, no, sorry that just ain't me.

I disagree. There are Welsh posters on here whose opinions I respect and enjoy reading, and some I do not. I am open about what I think

by gregortree Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:39 pm

Look...it may be my fault chaps as I worried it might be controversial placing 'Sir Clive' and 'Welsh Rugby' together, but this is a factual interesting and current news story.
And very complimentary to Welsh rugby achievements and to Warren Gatland.
Why the 'eck does it have to get posters so personally revved up ?

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:prejudice?.

There's that word again, the English like to use that a lot don't they ? Twice in a thread I find myself at a bemusement.

Look, you are prejudiced, and strongly might I add, against anything Welsh or to do with Wales, you often will pick at me on here just because I am Welsh, you do not even know me, I am not prejudice of anything, I am cynical, and suspicious, but prejudice, no, sorry that just ain't me.

Different threads. I backed down and apologised. You said you're now judging people like Lawes Hibbard etc because of their big hits and think they're trying to hurt people, that's fair enough.

Yeah, sorry, I got my threads in a twist. Doh

by gregortree Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:42 pm

Lordy !

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:43 pm

gregortree wrote:Why the 'eck does it have to get posters so personally revved up ? .

I aint revvedup greg, I am quite calm, I have had a decent debate on this very thread with yourself, Cyril and others, it's just when people accuse me of hate and prejudice is where I find the need to defend myself. We all have our own POV, just because mine differ from others does not mean I am right, or vice versa, thats what this place is for. thumbsup

by gregortree Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:52 pm

Lordy, shame you have to defend, but agree there is totally no need to accuse people on here. We are all rugby fans, not wendyball types.
PS: I have friends in Merthyr, so your name is connected ?

by Gooseberry Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:53 pm

beshocked wrote:Clive likes to be in the limelight doesn't he?

He is a paid pundit and columnist

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:54 pm

Not a shame at all. If people are going to come out that they judge certain players differently prepare to defend the view point. He did, I don't agree with his conclusions from it, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:57 pm

gregortree wrote: Lordy, shame you have to defend, but agree there is totally no need to accuse people on here. We are all rugby fans, not wendyball types.
PS: I have friends in Merthyr, so your name is connected ?

Where Merthyr are they from greg ?

by gregortree Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:04 pm

They used to be at top of Town, Gurnos way. Many years ago. The old man died last year (he was from Kent) but his girls still live in the area. We 'English boys' as they called us back then used to stay at The Crown in the high st near the nick, and drink with who we called 'The Welsh Boys' back in the 70 s when Welsh Rugby was in its heyday. Happy memories.

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:07 pm

gregortree wrote:They used to be at top of Town, Gurnos way. Many years ago. The old man died last year (he was from Kent) but his girls still live in the area. We 'English boys' as they called us back then used to stay at The Crown in the high st near the nick, and drink with who we called 'The Welsh Boys' back in the 70 s when Welsh Rugby was in its heyday. Happy memories.

Merthyr has changed so much since then, but yes you are right, happy days.

by beshocked Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:13 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:Clive likes to be in the limelight doesn't he?

He is a paid pundit and columnist

And? Yes he is both of those things - conveniently setting himself up nicely for the run up to the RWC.

Jumps from bandwagon to bandwagon - from the Olympics back to rugby......

Pretty canny actually - maximising as much revenue as he can.

Perhaps after the RWC - Strictly Come Dancing and Celebrity Masterchef beckon?

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:19 pm

beshocked wrote:Perhaps after the RWC - Strictly Come Dancing and Celebrity Masterchef beckon?.

Perhaps, if he wins Strictly, he will take the credit for the professional woman he is dancing with as well, then try and tell everybody for the next ten years what they should be doing on the show.

only joking.

Run

by offload Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:27 pm

I see Woodward as the consummate enabler - he was very much the manager rather than coach. He succeeded with England because he left no stone unturned and managed to get every resource possible. He set out a plan and stuck to it and in 2002 England was the best team in the world. In 2003 they were still good enough to win the WC - just. Woodward deserves plenty of praise for that achievement. He was a bit lucky to have a fantastic group of players to work with, but then every manager needs a bit of luck.

I think it's interesting that Woodward does not seem to have kicked on much from that success. His Lions shambles was just that - you can't apply the same winning formula to everything. He has dined out for rather a long time on that WC success. Good luck to him - If I'd won it, I would still be eating too.

by LordDowlais Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:34 pm

offload wrote:Good luck to him - If I'd won it, I would still be eating too..

Cannot argue with that, I suppose I would be the same. thumbsup

by beshocked Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:42 pm

offload wrote:I see Woodward as the consummate enabler - he was very much the manager rather than coach. He succeeded with England because he left no stone unturned and managed to get every resource possible. He set out a plan and stuck to it and in 2002 England was the best team in the world. In 2003 they were still good enough to win the WC - just. Woodward deserves plenty of praise for that achievement. He was a bit lucky to have a fantastic group of players to work with, but then every manager needs a bit of luck.

I think it's interesting that Woodward does not seem to have kicked on much from that success. His Lions shambles was just that - you can't apply the same winning formula to everything. He has dined out for rather a long time on that WC success. Good luck to him - If I'd won it, I would still be eating too.

Woodward didn't exactly leave the England team in a particularly good shape after his departure though did he? Woodward got his success with the RWC but didn't help develop England for the future.

His shambolic 2005 tenure as Lions coach showed that he was past his sell by date.

At least he's no longer a coach. French fans must be wondering when they can offload Phillipe Saint Andre onto a poor unsuspecting team - hasn't hit the heights that he did with Sale over 9 years ago now!

Gatland has been a remarkably successful coach - has yielded plenty of silverware.

Difference between Clive and Warren is that Clive has picked up the biggest prize in world rugby whilst Gatland is still chasing it.

To be honest I think Warren needs a RWC to move into coaching greatness.

No offence to Wales but I don't think they are the team that will bring him the elusive title.

You would expect that Gatland would jump at the chance of getting the ABs job.

by offload Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:05 pm

beshocked wrote:To be honest I think Warren needs a RWC to move into coaching greatness.

No offence to Wales but I don't think they are the team that will bring him the elusive title.

Probably not - a good run possibly, but I wouldn't bet much on Wales winning the WC. Ignoring his contract for a minute and assuming Gatland moves on after the WC, I wonder where he might go? Always a lot of coaching movement after the WC.

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:55 pm

Cheifs (in Waikato).

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:58 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:If you're unhappy with my posts Saint, and believe that they have breached the forum rules, then feel free to report them and one of the admins can adjudicate. I suspect however that the completion of that act will say a whole lot more about you than it will about me fella.

I did before, on the sticky that had warned about fans behaviour during the 6 Nations. First game in, Englanders wumming, breaking the rules and an English mod joined in. So there's no point if it gets us nowhere, it'll just continue to drive people away from this forum. But now that you've mentioned it, can I put in a complaint about jimpy stalking my posts? It's really creeping me out...

If it drives you away then everyone is a winner Saint.

You may also want to look up what libel actually is.

Everyone's a winner.. bar England right? The perennial 2nd place finishers, the piggy in the middle.

You might want to go back and read both posts, but this time engage your brain.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:16 pm

What do you win for 3rd?

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:23 pm

Nothing, just like 2nd. Difference is you won't catch anyone other than some Englanders on here crowing over 2nd place.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:25 pm

Crowing?

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:27 pm

Yeah a loud cry, just imagine that '2nd place' ringing in your blydi ears all the time. Jeez.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:30 pm

You re a bit of a hypocrite aren t you. Chin up lad.

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:39 pm

Come on 7.5 I'm only kidding. Is that any way to address someone who's nominated your England as his second team?

by offload Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:43 pm

The Saint wrote: Come on 7.5 I'm only kidding. Is that any way to address someone who's nominated your England as his second team?

I think you have a typo there Saint. Looking at your earlier posts I think you mean "team that comes second" not "your second team"

Easy mistake.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:51 pm

3rd rate humour saint.

by The Saint Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:03 pm

offload wrote:
The Saint wrote: Come on 7.5 I'm only kidding. Is that any way to address someone who's nominated your England as his second team?

I think you have a typo there Saint. Looking at your earlier posts I think you mean "team that comes second" not "your second team"

Easy mistake.

by Gwlad Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you win for 3rd?

Not coming 2nd.

And anyone level headed fan would take Wales 6 Nations record over England's perennial bridesmaid status with a RWC coming up.

Consistent is all you can say about England. Except for selection that is. Consistently 2nd and consistently backed up by deluded fans who think the head shed is out of order telling the richest rugby nation in the world with the most resources that their failure is unacceptable, year in, year out.

by Steve_rugby Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:46 am

Gwlad wrote:

And anyone level headed fan would take Wales 6 Nations record over England's perennial bridesmaid status with a RWC coming up.

Consistent is all you can say about England. Except for selection that is. Consistently 2nd and consistently backed up by deluded fans who think the head shed is out of order telling the richest rugby nation in the world with the most resources that their failure is unacceptable, year in, year out.

Really ? You do know Wales 6N record on average is 4th place whereas Englands average is 1st ? Now which 6N record would any deluded Welsh fan prefer ?

by Gwlad Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:54 am

Steve_rugby wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

And anyone level headed fan would take Wales 6 Nations record over England's perennial bridesmaid status with a RWC coming up.

Consistent is all you can say about England. Except for selection that is. Consistently 2nd and consistently backed up by deluded fans who think the head shed is out of order telling the richest rugby nation in the world with the most resources that their failure is unacceptable, year in, year out.

Really ? You do know Wales 6N record on average is 4th place whereas Englands average is 1st ? Now which 6N record would any deluded Welsh fan prefer ?

I triple crown since 2003. 1 Championship since then! If you are satisfied with that then no wonder 2nd place is acceptable.

During this time Wales have what, 2 Slams and 4 Championships.

2 in the last RWC cycle versus 4 x 2nd place for England.

KNow which team i would rather support, a team that wins it regularly versus one that talks it up every season, has oodles of resources, starts off well and , consistently, comes 2nd. picard

by The Saint Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:07 am

Steve_rugby wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

And anyone level headed fan would take Wales 6 Nations record over England's perennial bridesmaid status with a RWC coming up.

Consistent is all you can say about England. Except for selection that is. Consistently 2nd and consistently backed up by deluded fans who think the head shed is out of order telling the richest rugby nation in the world with the most resources that their failure is unacceptable, year in, year out.

Really ? You do know Wales 6N record on average is 4th place whereas Englands average is 1st ? Now which 6N record would any deluded Welsh fan prefer ?

Who cares about averages? You've been blowing this trumpet for weeks now and it's not even relevant Broken Record

. Only someone trying to desperately claim a moral victory would be talking up their average positioning. The fact of the matter is that you can't hide from four 2nd place finishes in a row; not even by desperately talking up your average positioning when your team has nothing to show for it. Leave the debate to us real rugby folk why don't you.

by **Ozzy3213** Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:48 am

There was me thinking this thread was about Sir Clive Woodward beign a fan of Warren Gatland and asserting that Wales have the potential to do well at the World Cup.

Silly me, it appears to be a dick measuring competition between certain Welsh and English posters.

Bottom line, at the present time, there is very little between England, Ireland and Wales, with all three of them having a chance of doing well at this World Cup. For two of them, Australia of course will be the fly in the ointment, and for one of those sides, it's a fly that has generally proved to be a little bit more difficult to swat.

Pool A will be very tense, and I can see one of England or Wales coming unstuck, as Australia always seem to manage to go up a gear during World Cups. Obvioulsy hope it's Wales, but the reality is that it's a toss of a coin. Anyone who thinks that 6 Nations results between the two in 2012, 2013, 2014 or even 2015 will have any relevance to the outcome, is seriously deluded.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:21 am

Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you win for 3rd?

Not coming 2nd.

And anyone level headed fan would take Wales 6 Nations record over England's perennial bridesmaid status with a RWC coming up.

Consistent is all you can say about England. Except for selection that is. Consistently 2nd and consistently backed up by deluded fans who think the head shed is out of order telling the richest rugby nation in the world with the most resources that their failure is unacceptable, year in, year out.

I'm starting to see your point, 3rd better than 2nd. You can never beat Wales, you can just finish above them.

by beshocked Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:58 am

Ozzy I agree.

The Saint you think that Gatland will quit international rugby?

I would actually would like to see Gatland take the French job after the RWC.

Unlikely sure but would be interesting.

by Jimpy Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:01 am

beshocked wrote:Ozzy I agree.

The Saint you think that Gatland will quit international rugby?

I would actually would like to see Gatland take the French job after the RWC.

Unlikely sure but would be interesting.

Well, he's reached the ceiling with regards to Wales. The pinnacle of rugby achievement will always be beyond him as head coach there.

by The Saint Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:11 am

Jimpy wrote:
beshocked wrote:Ozzy I agree.

The Saint you think that Gatland will quit international rugby?

I would actually would like to see Gatland take the French job after the RWC.

Unlikely sure but would be interesting.

Well, he's reached the ceiling with regards to Wales. The pinnacle of rugby achievement will always be beyond him as head coach there.

Yeah Gatland and Wales just really wish they had been finishing 2nd instead of 1st all those years, and that they hadn't gone on to help construct the first Lions series win in 16 years.

beshocked, I don't think he will unless there's pressure on him to do so, and that will come from the WRU, and it's dependent on results in the RWC I reckon. He wants to coach the ABs. He has an impressive CV, its much better than Jimpy's - but I think the NZRU would rather he coach in S15 first, hence I see him going to his home franchise at some point. He won't coach France, but we can all look out if he does Wink

.

by beshocked Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:18 am

Jimpy perhaps - maybe Wales will win the RWC. Unlikely but certainly have a higher chance than many other teams.

Pinnacle of rugby achievement of winning the RWC is beyond the vast majority of coaches.

Clive had a combination of luck and skill. Fortunate to be blessed with some of the best English players of all time.

Gatland does not have the same quality of personnel to work with - winning the rwc with this Welsh side would in all likelihood make him the greatest rugby coach of all time as unlikely as it is.

by LordDowlais Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:25 am

beshocked wrote:winning the rwc with this Welsh side would in all likelihood make him the greatest rugby coach of all time as unlikely as it is..

How would you rate his last world cup which had practically all the same players ?

by fa0019 Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:36 am

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:winning the rwc with this Welsh side would in all likelihood make him the greatest rugby coach of all time as unlikely as it is..

How would you rate his last world cup which had practically all the same players ?

Probably more fortuitous than anything else given Ireland beating AUS turned the competition a little lop-sided.

Record in 2011 was

Lost vs South Africa
Won vs Samoa
Won vs. Namibia
Won vs. Ireland
Lost vs. France
Lost vs. Australia.

Beating Ireland was an achievement but not exactly something you would call classic. Performances were good but in reality their performances in 2003 were superior IMO.

by Jimpy Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:41 am

beshocked wrote:Jimpy perhaps - maybe Wales will win the RWC. Unlikely but certainly have a higher chance than many other teams.

Pinnacle of rugby achievement of winning the RWC is beyond the vast majority of coaches.

Clive had a combination of luck and skill. Fortunate to be blessed with some of the best English players of all time.

Gatland does not have the same quality of personnel to work with - winning the rwc with this Welsh side would in all likelihood make him the greatest rugby coach of all time as unlikely as it is.

Aren't Fiji in their group too?

by lostinwales Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:43 am

Interesting looking at it like that. What we are saying is that one decent performance (i.e. quarter finals) and you can get into the semi's. Two and you are in the finals. I guess its pretty much what England did on the way to the finals in 2007 and France last time.

by The Saint Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:43 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/15045857

by fa0019 Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:51 am

lostinwales wrote:Interesting looking at it like that. What we are saying is that one decent performance (i.e. quarter finals) and you can get into the semi's. Two and you are in the finals. I guess its pretty much what England did on the way to the finals in 2007 and France last time.

Exactly Lost.

England up to the AUS game had a dire tournament.

But beating AUS who were heavily favoured to beat England and expected to beat them well, as well as France at home who were the no.2 side in the world, 6N champs for the last 2 years and the victors vs NZ a week before should not be underestimated.

It was probably the greatest turnaround in the history of the tournament and a greater achievement than 2003 for England given where they were after being nilled by SA a few weeks before.

by beshocked Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:57 am

Pool A is by far the toughest but winning it would give an easier run to the final.

Winner of Pool A likely would play Samoa or Scotland in the quarter finals, Ireland or France in the semis - not exactly unwinnable matches.

by fa0019 Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:00 pm

If Wales win pool A and get to the final it will probably be their greatest achievement since the 70s

England (at home)
Australia
Ireland (last 2 6N titles and no.3 in world)

At the moment the money is them not even reaching the QFs regardless of how good they are.

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