Why oh why Tuilagi!....... BREAKING NEWS!

First topic message reminder :

Well that makes the midfield pairing debate easier...............................

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/12891571/manu-tuilagi-world-cup-assault-charge

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barring the fact that Wilkinson really didn't deal with pressure well. He'll hopefully be getting the support from Leicester and England; it does sound as is that's the case. It has been handled well.

In what regards

rodders wrote:Wilkinson is the model sportsman - he's definitely not a one off but he's at the extreme end of the dedication/model sportsman spectrum .... Manu isn't quite at the opposite end but he's definitely below the acceptable mark at the minute and think England have handled this well.

Think Beshocked if fairly spot on.

He is correct to a point, but to suggest that modern rugby players are living in bubbles and find normal human interaction challenging, is nonsense,

His personal issues GF. Not a good way to handle pressure and life in general.

What personal issues

GeordieFalcon wrote:What personal issues

em.............................. Personal personal issues GF.  Let's not get nosy now.......................

..........waiting patiently for 7.5's response..............

Sorry! Anxiety, depression, self harm.

Just want to say as well I wouldn't consider Wilkinson to be 'flawed' in this as it's an archaic term in this regards. Also not a weakness just another form of illness.

Let's be honest we don't know what happens behind closed doors. For all we know Manu might have done other naughty things but were covered up. Afterall this only incident is coming to light now. Equally there could be other players who have done stupid things that are not in the public domain. You honestly think every stupid mistake by a player is there for all to see?

Jimpy you are right - perhaps I am exaggerating a tad certainly by saying all rugby players fit that but some rugby players do find it hard to interact outside rugby.

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest we don't know what happens behind closed doors. For all we know Manu might have done other naughty things but were covered up. Afterall this only incident is coming to light now. Equally there could be other players who have done stupid things that are not in the public domain. You honestly think every stupid mistake by a player is there for all to see?

Jimpy you are right - perhaps I am exaggerating a tad certainly by saying all rugby players fit that but some rugby players do find it hard to interact outside rugby.

I'm sure that is true. But, is that because they're being hidden away from society, or is it because they're naturally introverted?

On the face of things Manu was an idiot and has got everything that was coming to him and I hope its been a good lesson about what it means if you are in the public eye and mess up. But assault covers a wide range and he didn't hit anyone. Nobody needed to go to hospital as a result of his actions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry! Anxiety, depression, self harm.

Yes but what you are saying is totally wrong in my opinion -that because Wilkinson suffered from these is a sign of an inability to handle pressure or a symptom of this.

I would say the opposite - that the fact that Wilkinson suffered from these conditions, and still achieved what he did on the field and conducted himself in the manner he did throughout his career demonstrates an ability to handle pressure on a level beyond many others.

It shows he wasn't really coping without it adversely affecting his health.

I guess I'm saying if Tuilagi really does have a problem as diagnosed by Gwlad he seems to be getting the support from both the teams he's involved with which is a good thing. Rather than seeing this as purely bad thing for the player and club it could be seen in a different light that the player is going to get the help he needs. This is assuming he is 'flawed' though rather than a guy who got drunk and made a big mistake.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It shows he wasn't really coping without it adversely affecting his health.

No it doesn't.

It shows that he has been extremely honest in admitting that he suffered mental health issues throughout his career, which are extremely common but also unfortunately still carry a stigma because of ill informed people - who relate them to some sort of personality flaw or weakness.

Henson I would class as someone who struggled to cope with pressure and mental health issues as they negatively impacted his career. Wilkinson is an example to any mental health sufferer how to continue to go on have a successful career.

rodders wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It shows he wasn't really coping without it adversely affecting his health.

No it doesn't.

It shows that he has been extremely honest in admitting that he suffered mental health issues throughout his career, which are extremely common but also unfortunately still carry a stigma because of ill informed people - who relate them to some sort of personality flaw or weakness.

Henson I would class as someone who struggled to cope with pressure and mental health issues as they negatively impacted his career. Wilkinson is an example to any mental health sufferer how to continue to go on have a successful career.

Of which I've done neither.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry! Anxiety, depression, self harm.

Really?

I honestly didn't know that, and im actually quite surprised to hear that.
I guess it shows you don't know how people feel inside. I had him down as a very strong minded, type certainly not into self harming.

But I do know a lot of people who have anxiety...its not always an easy thing to handle.

I've read the article again just to remind myself, it was when he got an injury it started to take it's toll. Rodders you could well be right about the pressure of the game situation but it is about lifestyle, friendships, partnerships the whole package. he needed to seek help and he did, from professionals. He's also had the courage to speak publically. Maybe beshockeds right if Wilkinson offers to speak with Tuilagi about coping with the overall situation it can only be a good thing. Could be Manu just needs a kick up the ...

Interesting article from Owen Slot, Rugby correspondent for the Times.

He states that he agrees Lancaster has done the correct thing but also draws comparison with how this would have been handled in NZ.

Julian Savea was charged with assaulting his partner (mother of his kid). He was required to participate in the Diversion Scheme for 6 months and show genuine remorse. Charges then dropped and no criminal record.

Ma'a Nonu has twice been arrested following drunken altercations. In one he resisted arrest and assaulted police officers. Each time he has participated in the Diversion Scheme, on one occasion making a donation to charity.

http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/programmes-initiatives/adult-diversion-scheme


It should be noted that neither player saw any interruption to their career, international or provincial, as a result of these incidents.

I just think Wilkinson's story of mental health issues is not unique or uncommon, especially in sport  - and Wilkinson's career was far from common, as was the expectation and pressure on him.

Did he struggle with pressure and suffer as a result - Yes.
Did he handle pressure badly and should have done something better - No, not in my opinion.

Its no loss, he would have got injured anyway. I think Leicester should sack him.

TightHEAD wrote:Its no loss, he would have got injured anyway. I think Leicester should sack him.

Of course.... while he's still under contract and regardless of behaviour, would be snapped up by pretty much any club who could afford him.

In France maybe but I think most English clubs would stay clear to be honest.

All clubs who could afford him but be after him.

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it flawed?

Is the 7.5 a reference to your IQ?

No, instead of questioning his intelligence, why don't you explain why it is flawed. We'd all love to see your detailed analysis of the player's psyche.

if a non specific person can't see why a player on extended injury absence assaulting 2 cops, a cabbie and the taxi itself indicates a flawed psyche after also punching the carp out of a player in front of tv cameras, jumping into a harbor on tour and rabbit earing the PM is indicative of a flawed psyche then frankly that person would be really rather dim.

Gwlad wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it flawed?

Is the 7.5 a reference to your IQ?

No, instead of questioning his intelligence, why don't you explain why it is flawed. We'd all love to see your detailed analysis of the player's psyche.

if a non specific person can't see why a player on extended injury absence assaulting 2 cops, a cabbie and the taxi itself indicates a flawed psyche after also punching the carp out of a player in front of tv cameras, jumping into a harbor on tour and rabbit earing the PM is indicative of a flawed psyche then frankly that person would be really rather dim.

So it should be quite easy for you to explain why his psyche is flawed then; off you go.

LondonTiger wrote:Interesting article from Owen Slot, Rugby correspondent for the Times.

He states that he agrees Lancaster has done the correct thing but also draws comparison with how this would have been handled in NZ.

Julian Savea was charged with assaulting his partner (mother of his kid). He was required to participate in the Diversion Scheme for 6 months and show genuine remorse. Charges then dropped and no criminal record.

Ma'a Nonu has twice been arrested following drunken altercations. In one he resisted arrest and assaulted police officers. Each time he has participated in the Diversion Scheme, on one occasion making a donation to charity.

http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/programmes-initiatives/adult-diversion-scheme


It should be noted that neither player saw any interruption to their career, international or provincial, as a result of these incidents.

Londontiger different rules in NZ.

Umaga and Mealamu never apologised for spear tackling BOD either and got no punishment.

Oh and I agree with Gwlad. Manu's psyche is flawed. He's not the only young Englishman who could do with some help.

TightHEAD wrote:In France maybe but I think most English clubs would stay clear to be honest.

We'll have him in a shot!!

6 - Brian Tuilagi
11 - Alex Tuilagi
12 - Andy Tuilagi
13 - Manu Tuilagi

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it flawed?

Is the 7.5 a reference to your IQ?

No, instead of questioning his intelligence, why don't you explain why it is flawed. We'd all love to see your detailed analysis of the player's psyche.

if a non specific person can't see why a player on extended injury absence assaulting 2 cops, a cabbie and the taxi itself indicates a flawed psyche after also punching the carp out of a player in front of tv cameras, jumping into a harbor on tour and rabbit earing the PM is indicative of a flawed psyche then frankly that person would be really rather dim.

So it should be quite easy for you to explain why his psyche is flawed then; off you go.

Ibid

LondonTiger wrote:Interesting article from Owen Slot, Rugby correspondent for the Times.

He states that he agrees Lancaster has done the correct thing but also draws comparison with how this would have been handled in NZ.

Julian Savea was charged with assaulting his partner (mother of his kid). He was required to participate in the Diversion Scheme for 6 months and show genuine remorse. Charges then dropped and no criminal record.

Ma'a Nonu has twice been arrested following drunken altercations. In one he resisted arrest and assaulted police officers. Each time he has participated in the Diversion Scheme, on one occasion making a donation to charity.

http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/programmes-initiatives/adult-diversion-scheme


It should be noted that neither player saw any interruption to their career, international or provincial, as a result of these incidents.

I read that article too, and the tone of it made me fume. The Diversion Scheme is part of how the NZ justice system stops people becoming serial offenders; there doesn't appear to be an equivalent in the UK justice system. It's got chuff all to do with rugby.

Take that away and what do you have? A few players from England and a few from NZ have committed offences. The England hierarchy suspended the players for major tournaments. The NZ hierarchy didn't.

The article seems to imply that NZ took the better approach. That smacks of expediency to me rather than principle. Owen Slot's normally a better writer than that.

If you look at what Lancaster did with Care (whose offences were probably the least significant - he was driving while over the limit and then got caught relieving himself outside a nightclub), it turned him around as a person and the consistency of his performances went up (even if he has been off the boil a bit this year).

Gwlad and beshocked then... how is his psyche flawed?

It's not normal to have an altercation with police officers.

It's not normal to punch the opposition.

Not normal to take the mickey out of the PM.

Jump off a ferry.

Manu needs to sort his mental state and he's not the only player. He's young though so hopefully as he gets older he'll mature and just think before he acts in future.

Perhaps if Manu was an unknown teenager he could get away with these antics but he is not. He's a well known rugby player and is meant to be a role model.

beshocked wrote:It's not normal to have an altercation with police officers.

His actions last month were inexcusable. Sadly the sort of thing that happens thousands of times every Friday and Saturday night throughout the UK.

It's not normal to punch the opposition.

He over-reacted to a cowardly rabbit punch from Ashton. He was rightly punished - and has not done that again. If Ashton had also been punished for his part - well perhaps he would have been better for it.

Not normal to take the mickey out of the PM.

Oh get over yourself. It is abnormal not to mock our overblown elected leaders. In fact you have done it on these boards. Now frankly I feel that Manu was far too restrained. He should have stuck his oversized fist up the preening, smug, pompous buffoons arse till it erupted from his mouth.

Jump off a ferry.

Seriously idiotic, also sadly quite common.




It is obvious that Manu is not perfect and I reckon he should probably become teetotal. He is also an extremely shy but very kind young man. He is not the brightest bulb in the shop and I would say he is perhaps young for his age - but unless he makes the same mistake twice some of the charcter assination on here says far more about the posters than about Manu.

beshocked wrote:It's not normal to have an altercation with police officers.

It's not normal to punch the opposition.

Not normal to take the mickey out of the PM.

Jump off a ferry.

Manu needs to sort his mental state and he's not the only player. He's young though so hopefully as he gets older he'll mature and just think before he acts in future.

Perhaps if Manu was an unknown teenager he could get away with  these antics but he is not. He's a well known rugby player and is meant to be a role model.

Yup Id agree with most of that bar the pm thing. But id read that as hes a bit immature drank too much and was woung up by Ashtons petulance hardly a flawed psyche even with a stretch of the imagination. Its irrelevant to his fame.

LondonTiger wrote:

Oh get over yourself. It is abnormal not to mock our overblown elected leaders. In fact you have done it on these boards. Now frankly I feel that Manu was far too restrained. He should have stuck his oversized fist up the preening, smug, pompous buffoons arse till it erupted from his mouth.

Hmmmmm.... I might ask you to tell me about your childhood but I think I've already gleaned enough to make a preliminary judgement. You just might be a flawed character there, Tiger. No offence but just.... Alien analogies are always a big marker for inner angst trying to get out

"Not normal to take the mickey out of the PM."

You're avin' a giraffe - it's not normal not to take the mickey out of the PM.

In fact it's the best move Manu's made for years - 'spect dude.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gwlad and beshocked then... how is his psyche flawed?

Are you actually trying to turn being obtuse into an Olympic sport…if so you could represent Team GB in the 7s version.

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gwlad and beshocked then... how is his psyche flawed?

Are you actually trying to turn being obtuse into an Olympic sport…if so you could represent Team GB in the 7s version.

He would have attempted to turn making sweeping and unsubstantiated character assessments into an Olympic sport, but he cut his losses when he saw how far ahead of him you were.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's not normal to have an altercation with police officers.

His actions last month were inexcusable. Sadly the sort of thing that happens thousands of times every Friday and Saturday night throughout the UK.

It's not normal to punch the opposition.

He over-reacted to a cowardly rabbit punch from Ashton. He was rightly punished - and has not done that again. If Ashton had also been punished for his part - well perhaps he would have been better for it.

Not normal to take the mickey out of the PM.

Oh get over yourself. It is abnormal not to mock our overblown elected leaders. In fact you have done it on these boards. Now frankly I feel that Manu was far too restrained. He should have stuck his oversized fist up the preening, smug, pompous buffoons arse till it erupted from his mouth.

Jump off a ferry.

Seriously idiotic, also sadly quite common.




It is obvious that Manu is not perfect and I reckon he should probably become teetotal. He is also an extremely shy but very kind young man. He is not the brightest bulb in the shop and I would say he is perhaps young for his age - but unless he makes the same mistake twice some of the charcter assination on here says far more about the posters than about Manu.

+1

Well said.

The irony of the two posters in question accusing Manu of being (having) a flawed personality is quite breath-taking.

Does make me scratch my head when those that castigate Manu call for Steffon to be included while under investigation for assault while being too drunk to remember.

broadlandboy wrote:Does make me scratch my head when those that castigate Manu call for Steffon to be included while under investigation for assault while being too drunk to remember.

Perhaps Steffon isn't as 'flawed'....

Or maybe, they simply don't understand what a 'flawed psyche' actually is. Probably because (and I'm willing to bet) that they aren't psychologists.....

JJ is a better fit for England anyway so Manu has made SL job a lot easier by his pathetic actions.

TightHEAD wrote:JJ is a better fit for England anyway so Manu has made SL job a lot easier by his pathetic actions.

Oh the irony.

Londontiger you say thousands of people have done it. Have you recently?

I am not a big fan of some politicians. Doesn't mean I would go out of my way to take the mickey of them if I met them in person. I criticise politicians,refs, players etc but I wouldn't insult face to face unless I felt there was a very good reason.

I wouldn't insult Manu if I met him in person either unless there was a good reason.

What exactly had David Cameron done to provoke such a reaction from Manu? If I had the honour of meeting someone like the PM or Queen I wouldn't take the mickey out of them but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it is the norm to abuse and deride people like that.

Sad reflection on society if it is.

Manu started the incident with Ashton.

Manu took out Ashton off the ball, Ashton pushed Manu as a reaction (though he should have let the ref punish Manu) then Manu punched Ashton.

Manu was the aggressor and of course deserved the heavier punishment.

Both got a YC when Manu should have been sent off. Also Manu's ban was reduced for remorse, good conduct during the hearing, his first incident and because England needed Manu to be available ASAP.

Jimpy look I understand you want to defend Manu because he's a Tigers player, fair enough to an extent because you probably know him better in real life than I do but it's still inexcusable what he's done.

Doesn't mean I hate Manu - I just think he needs to sort himself out in the maturity stakes and clear his head. I am not asking for him to be flogged or hung - I want him to get better.

First thing to solving a problem is admitting there is one.

Perhaps as you say it's normal to get up to the antics that Manu has - if that's the case I really do despair.

No one is condoning his behaviour but most disagree that he has a flawed psyche. Gwlad cant even express what he means by it as it doesnt just mean immature or rubbish with a drink in side him.

TightHEAD wrote:JJ is a better fit for England anyway so Manu has made SL job a lot easier by his pathetic actions.

Alternatively you could say he's mostly played when Farrell has been at 10 and sat deep in the whole (was that tactics or Farrels style) , and has been relegated to a battering ram and has still been a regular try scorer....

Imagine with a playmaker like Ford at 10 creating space, putting him through holes etc he could become a hell of a player in our side.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:JJ is a better fit for England anyway so Manu has made SL job a lot easier by his pathetic actions.

Alternatively you could say he's mostly played when Farrell has been at 10 and sat deep in the whole (was that tactics or Farrels style) , and has been relegated to a battering ram and has still been a regular try scorer....

Imagine with a playmaker like Ford at 10 creating space, putting him through holes etc he could become a hell of a player in our side.

I guess we'll have to keep imagining!

Rugby is so much easier when you imagine players breaking through defenses and destroying teams.

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gwlad and beshocked then... how is his psyche flawed?

Are you actually trying to turn being obtuse into an Olympic sport…if so you could represent Team GB in the 7s version.

He would have attempted to turn making sweeping and unsubstantiated character assessments into an Olympic sport, but he cut his losses when he saw how far ahead of him you were.

sweeping? 3 assault pleads and lets not forget a criminal damage for good measure; how much more evidence do you want? how many disappointed injured pro rugby players do you know who go out on the rampage that way? Flawed psyche is being generous if you ask me.
unsubstantiated character assessment? Er hello, it's public record. Open your eyes.

Yet nothing to do with psyche.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yet nothing to do with psyche.

yes, in this case his brain and mind had nothing to do with his actions it appears. Give it up 7.5, you clearly don't know what psyche even is and if you think you do, then please explain how these multiple convictions for assault police and criminal damage occurred without the man's psyche being involved? People who go around assaulting other people and damaging stuff OBVIOUSLY have a flawed psyche.

Why? Explain. How is his mind flawed?