Why oh why Tuilagi!....... BREAKING NEWS!

First topic message reminder :

Well that makes the midfield pairing debate easier...............................

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/12891571/manu-tuilagi-world-cup-assault-charge

The Saint wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

The Saint wrote:Oh dear Manu. Carry on behaving like this and people on here will be convinced you're Welsh...

Well you two definitely have something in common

What, that we're both Welsh? Or we both like to beat up women?

Can we not go down this road please, what he did was bad enough without people saying he beats up woman. He pushed them away, which isnt beating someone up

I would love to see Manu Samoa Tuilagi treat this event as motivation to go back and play for his Island of heritage's team, Manu Samoa.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I would love to see Manu Samoa Tuilagi treat this event as motivation  to go back and play for  his Island of heritage's team, Manu Samoa.

he's tied to England, the place where he has lived for the last 10 years, where he learned his rugby and whose national team he has represented

aucklandlaurie wrote: I would love to see Manu Samoa Tuilagi treat this event as motivation  to go back and play for  his Island of heritage's team, Manu Samoa.

Unless the IRB World Rugby change their eligibility rules, he obviously can't.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I would love to see Manu Samoa Tuilagi treat this event as motivation  to go back and play for  his Island of heritage's team, Manu Samoa.

Would that not go against what most believe on here, that you should play for the country where you grew up and learnt your rugby?

I suspect that laurie is on the wind-up, like when he said that London wasn't safe enough to host the Olympics.

He did seem to have this side of his nature under control on the pitch as well.

Doest sound as serious and "assault" as the Armitage allegations but its absolutely right hes given a lengthy lay off as a result of being convicted.

Massive loss for England, hes one of the few guys that could actually make the a difference from England being a decent side to being a dangerous one.

I can only say that he is nothing but a drunk thuggish idiot. Certainly one of England's "X Factor" players but SL is absolutely 100% correct in throwing him out of the squad. This is the last thing the England team needed - that said - there are plenty of up and coming players who would be happy to take his place.

Hopefully both Slade and Daly will get a call up to the extended 45-man squad and with a bit of luck they won't disappoint.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just thinking...also makes you wonder how injured Manu has actually been.

Are you thinking

"Not injured now, but kept back by Leicester over the last two weeks because of this incident"

or

"Injured more seriously than reported, leading to frustrated player hitting the bottle one night and totally losing control"?

If his psyche is so flawed that frustration lead him to assaulting a taxi driver and 2 cops then it seems to me that january is far too soon for him.

Well hopefully he learns from all this And him his club and England make sure it doesn't happen again.

Now let's draw a line under it and focus on the fact we have a very good player who already has that 13 shirt and and a few others who can take the spot. Even burrell impressed in the 13 shirt more than the 12 spot.

12 is the problem spot.

Gwlad wrote:

If his psyche is so flawed that frustration lead him to assaulting a taxi driver and 2 cops then it seems to me that january is far too soon for him.

No, it's not.

Steve_rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

If his psyche is so flawed that frustration lead him to assaulting a taxi driver and 2 cops then it seems to me that january is far too soon for him.

No, it's not.

another stunning insight from steve and his rugby ball sized crystal ball

If i said Tuilagi was a thug who assaulted people you'd say that wasn't true either.

A real shame, but the right decision has been made here. Lancaster did it with Care and he came back so much stronger.

From Tuilagi's perspective, I hope he gets himself sorted. As has been mentioned, a long rest and full pre-season with his club may do him a lot of good, and his issues sorted he could be a very good option for England in 2016, the Lions in 2017 and the World Cup in 2019, so hopefully he can put this disappointment behind him.

From England's perspective, Joseph should now be nailed on at 13. I think a first choice midfield of Ford, Barritt and Joseph offers us a lot. I don't think Burrell showed much in attack during the Six Nations and was definitely shown up in defence. Barritt's main strength is his defence and hopefully he can take ownership of the defence if he's restored to the starting line-up.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be tempted by the Bath midfield trio of Ford Eastmond and Joseph. Ford and Joseph showed in the 6N that they're fine defensively, so that's not so much of a worry for me. Anyone seen the latest on the probable squad of 50 from the Telegraph: they're usually pretty good with their predictions...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11610157/Sam-Burgess-will-be-named-in-Englands-World-Cup-training-squad.html

Tuillagis absence does nail down joseph as the man at 13, Burrell as his understudy...but I dont think he has much he other than a fill in at 12.
Barrits stock has risen even higher as well, the longer hes not been in the team and others have failed to do an better than he did the more he is forgiven.

I cat see any of those 3 missing out altogether. Burgess is really problematic for England, so much depends on whether they still see him as a 12 or now have to look at him as backrow impact player.
Slades chances as Lancaster has previously stated are based on his flexibility as the dreaded utility back who will end up playing somewhere absurd like scrum half or lock (well not quite). Tweetwees shoots out for that spot with him, once the golden boy of the internet now the golden shower.

I just dont see Joseph getting in the final squad, although there may just be room for him in the extended group.

As things stand England have a lot more options than they have done in some previous years. Tuillagi is a massive loss but to only be missing one of the serious contenders for a center spot is pretty good going by recent injury/suspension standards. theres been times in the last few years where they have been picking 4th and 5th choice players.

Sure it would be nice if they had a stand out pairing but at least whoever gets in the squad will be doing it on merit not just because everyone else was dead.

Gooseberry wrote:I just dont see Joseph getting in the final squad, although there may just be room for him in the extended group.

Pretty sure you meant to write a different name.

As has been said a couple of times the reason Barritt's stock has risen so high is that his skill set is very complimentary to those of Joseph and Ford. Its not so much absence making the heart grow fonder, just seeing that he could well be the right piece for that particular complicated jigsaw.

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I just dont see Joseph getting in the final squad, although there may just be room for him in the extended group.

Pretty sure you meant to write a different name.

Kyle "Joseph" Eastmond obvs

lostinwales wrote:As has been said a couple of times the reason Barritt's stock has risen so high is that his skill set is very complimentary to those of Joseph and Ford. Its not so much absence making the heart grow fonder, just seeing that he could well be the right piece for that particular complicated jigsaw.

Barritt is certainly a rock in defence.. but what are his distribution/playmaking skills like? I can't really remember.

Decent. Won't really be used much other than to carry hard or as a decoy if played though. I think as with everyone he's getting really good now he isn't playing. I expect 3 games where he's ok but nothing special before calls for Eastmond as his turn is next again.

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

If his psyche is so flawed that frustration lead him to assaulting a taxi driver and 2 cops then it seems to me that january is far too soon for him.

No, it's not.

another stunning insight from steve and his rugby ball sized crystal ball

If i said Tuilagi was a thug who assaulted people you'd say that wasn't true either.

You're just loving every available opportunity to vent your anti-English rhetoric aren't you.

Nobody is going to defend the actions of Manu Tuilagi here. He committed an offence and has been punished by the court. Assault takes many forms, and it seems in this particular case, it was at the less severe end of the spectrum. In a very humble and contrite statement made by the player after the judgement was handed down, he apologises unreservedly to all concerned and openly recognises the stupidity of his actions. He's hardly a habitual 'thug' as you so eloquently put it. It is indeed quite possible that months out through injury has indeed led to a certain amount of frustration that could (and probably were in part at least) causal to this incident. It does not mean that his 'psyche' is so flawed that a longer international ban is warranted. He made a mistake. He has been punished, and SL and his club have openly stated that they will work with the player regarding any rehabilitation that may be required.

IMO England has looked a significantly better team without MT. Far more dangerous and creative.

Lancasters decision is who to play between Ford and Joseph - the long running 12 debate is still the dilema.

lostinwales wrote:As has been said a couple of times the reason Barritt's stock has risen so high is that his skill set is very complimentary to those of Joseph and Ford. Its not so much absence making the heart grow fonder, just seeing that he could well be the right piece for that particular complicated jigsaw.

Spot on....ive been saying him for a while. Its not that he's an electric 12...and hopefully one of the kids can come through and make that spot his.

The thing about Barritt is that he is known for his defence...but also his defensive leadership, and until we have a world beating 12....I personally feel this will balance out well with the two more attacking players around him.

Rory,
He's no playmaker that's for sure...but he did play 10 in SA. I would say his handling is ok...he'll get the ball out, but hopefully with Youngs/Care, Ford and Joseph that wouldn't be a problem.

One advantage that Joseph has over Manu - when Joseph plays the wingers get the ball.

Watson and Nowell both looked better with an outside centre who actually puts them in space and passes the ball.

In the 6 nations the backline worked more as an unit instead of just give the ball to Manu.

Helped that Ford,Joseph and Watson all same club.


Ford,Burrell,Joseph was tried in the 6 nations - Burrell had a poor tournament so of course a new option needs to be tried.

Barritt needs to get some gametime and show some form IMO.

offload wrote:IMO England has looked a significantly better team without MT.  Far more dangerous and creative.  

Lancasters decision is who to play between Ford and Joseph - the long running 12 debate is still the dilema.

Yes but that is nothing to do with Manu's absence. Other bits of the team have changed in the meantime.

I do find it somewhat amusing that when Manu was simply injured, the majority of people proclaimed him The Messiah, and that his return was the solution to all England's midfield problems. Now he's excluded until at least January, and the consensus is, "meh, we've done alright without him, no great loss really".

Make your minds up.

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

Jimpy wrote:I do find it somewhat amusing that when Manu was simply injured, the majority of people proclaimed him The Messiah, and that his return was the solution to all England's midfield problems. Now he's excluded until at least January, and the consensus is, "meh, we've done alright without him, no great loss really".

Make your minds up.

Well we did manage very well without him, but he is such a powerful unit that we do want a fit (and mentally straight) Manu back involved. There have been a lot of concerns over how we do fit him in with Joesph being the new (true) messiah. Wing doesn't work. but 12 might at a time when we have uncertainty over who is best.

Manu is a loss because we lose having Manu and Joseph as our OCs, the strength of which is that they are excellent players who offer very different things. Useful for bench options, or depending on the opposition. However, Manu hasn't been Manu for so long that I've nearly forgotten who Manu is. A long(er) rest and a kick up the arris, and some serious club time will probably do him (& England) some good.

lostinwales wrote:

Jimpy wrote:I do find it somewhat amusing that when Manu was simply injured, the majority of people proclaimed him The Messiah, and that his return was the solution to all England's midfield problems. Now he's excluded until at least January, and the consensus is, "meh, we've done alright without him, no great loss really".

Make your minds up.

Well we did manage very well without him, but he is such a powerful unit that we do want a fit (and mentally straight) Manu back involved. There have been a lot of concerns over how we do fit him in with Joesph being the new (true) messiah. Wing doesn't work. but 12 might at a time when we have uncertainty over who is best.

It might indeed...however post WC we will see Hill, Stephenson etc come in to the frame after some impressive performances for their clubs this season...and offer good power as well...and then theres Slade which ever position he ends up finally settling in.

So it could be interesting

LondonTiger wrote:He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

But I think he's the messiah LT, and I should know I've followed a few!

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

But I think he's the messiah LT, and I should know I've followed a few!

I have a holy boot you may wish to buy. Of failing that a gourd.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

But I think he's the messiah LT, and I should know I've followed a few!

I have a holy boot you may wish to buy. Of failing that a gourd.

We are no longer the knights who say Manu. We are now the knights who say JJ-JJ-JJ-pitang-zoom-boing.

So long as you return with my shrubbery, you can say what you like.

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

If his psyche is so flawed that frustration lead him to assaulting a taxi driver and 2 cops then it seems to me that january is far too soon for him.

No, it's not.

another stunning insight from steve and his rugby ball sized crystal ball

If i said Tuilagi was a thug who assaulted people you'd say that wasn't true either.

You're just loving every available opportunity to vent your anti-English rhetoric aren't you.

Nobody is going to defend the actions of Manu Tuilagi here. He committed an offence and has been punished by the court. Assault takes many forms, and it seems in this particular case, it was at the less severe end of the spectrum. In a very humble and contrite statement made by the player after the judgement was handed down, he apologises unreservedly to all concerned and openly recognises the stupidity of his actions. He's hardly a habitual 'thug' as you so eloquently put it. It is indeed quite possible that months out through injury has indeed led to a certain amount of frustration that could (and probably were in part at least) causal to this incident. It does not mean that his 'psyche' is so flawed that a longer international ban is warranted. He made a mistake. He has been punished, and SL and his club have openly stated that they will work with the player regarding any rehabilitation that may be required.

He made more than a 'mistake'. he committed 4 crimes including assaulting police and also plead guilty so no mitigation/defence This has nothing to do with anti english rhetoric and all that bs. Stick to the facts and take the hit…his psyche is flawed and 6 months off won't eradicate that.

Why is it flawed?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it flawed?

Is the 7.5 a reference to your IQ?

Why is it flawed gwlad?

Gwlad wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it flawed?

Is the 7.5 a reference to your IQ?

No, instead of questioning his intelligence, why don't you explain why it is flawed. We'd all love to see your detailed analysis of the player's psyche.

I know Gwlad is a WUM but he does make a fair point.

Manu quite clearly does have issues - probably due to being a young man whose been a darling of England since his emergence on the rugby scene. Probably has issues dealing with the fame and media. Also inevitably will make his ego inflate an unhealthy amount.

Similar to the likes of Danny Cipriani,Chris Ashton and Danny Care.

It's not as if Manu is the first young Englishman to have discipline issues and won't be the last.


Plus there might have been a build up of frustation for Manu being injured. I am sure that the vast majority of rugby players want to be on that rugby field as often as possible. Rugby is these guy's livelihood. To have to be on the sidelines I am sure would have left Manu thinking more than he would like to!

Personally I think rugby players are like modern day gladiators - pampered but don't really understand the real world, they are kept in their artificial bubbles.

Any interaction with humans from the outside world is not straightforward for them as they have been brought up on rugby,rugby rugby in a predominantly male environment (you might get the token female coach).

I think you're overdoing that a bit, shocked.

The vast majority of rugby players are decent folks that can easily communicate and inter-react with women and kids...and animals.

You bring your personality with you through life though, and it mostly comes from much earlier than a professional rugby playing environment.  Some people are born to coast close to the edge of what is considered acceptable and some don't.

Johnny Wilkinson had a much tougher time with injuries than Manu could ever imagine at this point.  Plus he had a much longer time conditioned to the Male-Only Gladiator world of Rugby Union.

Some people are childish, immature, reckless or simply laddish and pranksterish - others (of the same age) can be quite markedly more mature and quiet.

Secretfly

Fair enough you're entitled to your opinion. I personally think there are quite a few rugby players who find it difficult to adapt to the real world. You are right though there are some players who find it easier than others.

It is perhaps wrong of me to lump everyone in together but I do think sometimes some rugby players don't know how to react - certainly when they are younger.

Can't compare the buddhist monk to Manu, Wilkinson is unique.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly

Fair enough you're entitled to your opinion. I personally think there are quite a few rugby players who find it difficult to adapt to the real world. You are right though there are some players who find it easier than others.

It is perhaps wrong of me to lump everyone in together but I do think sometimes some rugby players don't know how to react - certainly when they are younger.

Can't compare the buddhist monk to Manu, Wilkinson is unique.

He's not unique.  I'd suggest Most players are like him rather than like Manu.

I'm not saying you're wrong, wrong, wrong here, Shocked - like I claim on other threads!!! - but I think you just weigh it a little too much as a characteristic that is common to rugby.  Look at all walks of life.  All walks of life have their gentlemen and all walks of life have their wilder men.  Acting - nice ones, idiots.  Comedians - nice ones, madmen.  Teachers - ordinary ones and crazies.  Footballers - stoic ones and off-the-wall ones.  

It isn't the sport, it's the personality types.  I'm not even saying I dislike wild characters, they can be a whole lot of fun and turn some grey areas of life into colourful ones - but I don't believe it's their careers doing it to them, it's who they are.

Ironically it's Wilkinson who actually has had a mental health issue.

Disagree. Wilkinson is a teetotaler. He's different to most rugby players.

I agree that there are different characteristics throughout all walks of life but I do think that rugby players have their own obstacles.

Manu is a young man who has different pressures. Perhaps talking to Wilkinson would do him some good.

I do think the career could be a significant part of it.

Manu isn't Jonny Wilkinson either - he's not got the same mindset.

It's far too glib to link together a series of publicized incidents in Manu's life and come up with the narrative of a flawed man.

Assaulting a taxi driver, and then two policewomen, is a very different matter in my book to jumping off a ferry and doing bunny ears behind the PM.

Freddie Flintoff was drunk in charge of a pedalo and drunk at Number 10, but he didn't subsequently get into a dust-up leading to criminal charges, and nor was it widely assumed he would do so.

Up until now, Manu's actions have been seen as the daft pranks of a young man playing up in front of his peers. The worst he did was punch Chris Ashton but he's hardly the first rugby player to do lash out. England's World Cup-winning captain was known to be handy with his fists.

Manu wasn't on any inevitable path to starting a public affray, but he found himself in the time, place and state of mind where that's exactly what happened.

It'll be up to the man himself to examine how he got there, and think about how to stop anything like that happening in the future. He's got his family, friends and club to help him and - though it's not for me - his faith. Injuries permitting, there's no reason he can't keep his head down and have a successful club and international career over the next ten years.

England can play a role in helping the player too, but he'll have to take the initiative and show by his deeds that he won't let anyone down in such a way again.

[quote="beshocked"]I know Gwlad is a WUM but he does make a fair point.

Manu quite clearly does have issues - probably due to being a young man whose been a darling of England since his emergence on the rugby scene. Probably has issues dealing with the fame and media. Also inevitably will make his ego inflate an unhealthy amount.

Similar to the likes of Danny Cipriani,Chris Ashton and Danny Care.

It's not as if Manu is the first young Englishman to have discipline issues and won't be the last.


Plus there might have been a build up of frustation for Manu being injured. I am sure that the vast majority of rugby players want to be on that rugby field as often as possible. Rugby is these guy's livelihood. To have to be on the sidelines I am sure would have left Manu thinking more than he would like to!

Personally I think rugby players are like modern day gladiators - pampered  but don't really understand the real world, they are kept in their artificial bubbles.

Any interaction with humans from the outside world is not straightforward for them as they have been brought up on rugby,rugby rugby in a predominantly male environment (you might get the token female coach).[/quote]

Simply not true. In fact, I've met both Alesana and Manu, they're about as down to earth and accessible as you can get. Tigers class themselves as a family orientated club and go out of their way to integrate their players within the local community. You suggest they're kept in isolation and only let out to play.

I bumped into Matt Banahan in the superstore in Bath the other week. He was more than capable of human interaction....

What we have here is a clear case of frustration combined with too much to drink and a certain amount of immaturity (the actual incident involved Manu going to his brother's defence - what he'd done I don't know, but who wouldn't defend their brother if they felt he was in need of help). These are issues that can and must be dealt with, but I sincerely doubt Manu Tuilagi has a mental health issue that requires in depth analysis.

Wilkinson is the model sportsman - he's definitely not a one off but he's at the extreme end of the dedication/model sportsman spectrum .... Manu isn't quite at the opposite end but he's definitely below the acceptable mark at the minute and think England have handled this well.

Think Beshocked if fairly spot on.

Barring the fact that Wilkinson really didn't deal with pressure well. He'll hopefully be getting the support from Leicester and England; it does sound as is that's the case. It has been handled well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barring the fact that Wilkinson really didn't deal with pressure well. He'll hopefully be getting the support from Leicester and England; it does sound as is that's the case. It has been handled well.

Well he handled the pressure pretty well kicking those drop goals in the world cup final!

Irrespective of whatever personal demons Wilkinson had, his on and off field behavior has been exemplary from the start of his career until the end, despite his profile and injuries - if that's not handling pressure I don't know what is.