England U20 World cup Thread.

by **LondonTiger** Mon May 18, 2015 4:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

England U20 Championship Squad

Sebastian Adeniran-Olule (Harlequins)
Joseph Batley (Gloucester Rugby)
Charles Beckett (Leicester Tigers)
James Chisholm (Harlequins) *
Maxwell Clark (Bath Rugby)
Lloyd Evans (Gloucester Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) (Capt)*
Ellis Genge (Bristol Rugby)
Paul Hill (Yorkshire Carnegie) *
Owen Hills (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Innard (Exeter Chiefs)
Rory Jennings (Bath Rugby)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
Joseph Marchant (Harlequins)
James Mitchell (Sale Sharks)
Aaron Morris (Saracens) *
Piers O'Conor (Wasps)
William Owen (Leicester Tigers)
Howard Packman (Northampton Saints) *
Ciaran Parker (Sale Sharks)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Samuel Skinner (Exeter Chiefs)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) *
Stuart Townsend (Exeter Chiefs)
Kieran Treadwell (Harlequins)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie) *
William Witty (Newcastle Falcons)

Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) was due to be named in the squad but misses out with injury. His replacement will be named next week.

England World Rugby Under 20 Championship schedule

2 June, England vs Japan, kick-off 5.30pm BST, Stadio San Michele, Calvisano
6 June, England vs Wales, kick-off 7.30pm BST, Stadio San Michele, Calvisano
10 June, England vs France, kick-off 3.30pm BST, Stadio Luigi Zaffanella, Viadana
15 June, semi-final or play-off games. Details TBC
20 June, final and play-off games. Details TBC

by Geordie Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:28 pm

LT, neither Care nor Youngs are old. I was referring mostly to their inconsistency....they tend to be top class or rather school boyish.

Hopefully they can sort that part of their games out, and we can bring a couple more through to challenge.

by BamBam Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:30 pm

Townsend in the U20 squad is meant to be quite a talent too, but haven't seen him play yet

by DaveM Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:10 am

propdavid_london wrote:What was the final result?
I saw the 1st half and although the score line was quite impressive, I cant help feeling that was down to the quality of oppo.
We wont know till they play a stronger side, but I get the feeling that this U20s side isnt quite as strong as the last couple of seasons.

I look forward to being prooved wrong but I havent seen any superstars in there yet - but they do seem to be a good unit that works well together. Perhaps Chisholm could be up there.

Stars of the past U20s that stand out in games Ive watched are - Marler, Ford, Itoje, LCD, J.Clifford,

I'm pretty sure people queried the quality of last year's side, compared to their predecessors. In terms of future stars I'd suggest:

Paul Hill,
Jack Walker,
Nick Tompkins
Joseph Marchant

I also think the back three of Packman, Perkins and Morris have potential, as do Townsend, Jennings and Ewels.

But the only way to know how good the squad is at the end of the tournament.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:49 am

I thought Gus Jones looked the pick of the backrow previously. Seemed to just know when to be on the shoulder or when to be in the ruck. Looked a really interesting option at 7 but has vanished.

I gunk Itoje may be better off at blindside going forward. The tight areas aren't his speciality and his loose play and work rate are outstanding for a 20 year old. Slater, Kitchener, Lawes and Launchbury will all be at an age to still compete for the next RWC squad as well as anyone else that comes through.

Does anyone know if the under 20 teams still have to utilise their entire squads in the group stages?

by DaveM Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:54 am

The thing is though, Itoje has the potential to be better than any of those locks. He's only 20, his potential is enormous, and I think he'll naturally bulk up over the next few years.

We've been lucky with locks recently, but Itoje might be a once in a generation player.

by lostinwales Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:15 pm

He has huge potential but lets wait for him to achieve some of it before going too overboard

by DaveM Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:55 am

Do England, at any level, ever practice restarts!?

by Hood83 Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:54 am

I pretty much missed it all, can anyone give me an idea how it played out? I'll be honest, every year I think the squad is worse than the last, and most recently i've been proven spectacularly wrong.

BUT...one thing i do worry about is Nick Walshe leaving. I think his teams were incredibly technically well trained, well drilled but not coached into being robots. If it's Callard now I'm not as optimistic for the future.

by DaveM Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:24 pm

England were ok. We struggled in the scrum until Genge came on, but most other aspects (bar the restarts - I think we lost every one in the first half) were good. We looked dangerous ball in hand and Jennings showed good control. We were cruising until conceding a strange try just before half time, and then Wales were in charge for the next quarter with England compounding their errors. Once we'd driven over for the 4th try the game was over.

So, so far so good.

by yappysnap Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:50 pm

How was Marchant??

by majesticimperialman Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:24 pm

I like the look of England's full back. think maybe next world cup he could be England's full back.

by DaveM Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:56 pm

Marchant wasn't in the matchday squad. I don't think he was in the squad for Japan either, so he must be injured. Tompkins had a good game at OC in his absence.

by cb Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:30 am

I thought England were OK at times. They starting by running the ball through the hands and scored tries. This was working quite well. THEN the fly-half just decided to kick whenever England were in the Welsh 22. This did not work at all, but despite this the fly-half kept on kicking and giving the ball to Wales. The only exception being being when England were on their own line, and THEN they decided to run which led to the Welsh try.

I am not sure this was a smart performance from England. If something works - keep doing it. If something fails - stop doing it.

by Poorfour Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:26 am

DaveM wrote:Marchant wasn't in the matchday squad. I don't think he was in the squad for Japan either, so he must be injured. Tompkins had a good game at OC in his absence.

Quins gave Marchant his senior debut in the last game of the season and he got injured. Real shame for him, but we will no doubt see more of him in the coming seasons.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:16 am

SH Stuart Townsend is out with knee injury. Real shame as he looked outstanding against Wales.
Able deputy in Will Homer comes in from Bath.

by The Saint Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:32 pm

Him and Jennings look like they have bright futures in English rugby, them two made the difference for me.

by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:51 pm

I haven't generally been that impressed with Jennings in the past, but against Wales he was great.

by propdavid_london Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:16 pm

OK - so a loss last night against France! Does that mean that they are out of the competition now? Or have a less favorable semi-final?

by lostinwales Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:49 pm

propdavid_london wrote:OK - so a loss last night against France! Does that mean that they are out of the competition now? Or have a less favorable semi-final?

Les favourable semi (We play SA - france NZ is the other one)

I was looking at the tables and had NZ lost against Argentina I dont think it would have changed anything at the top end and may not have changed anything lower down. Strange the way the format plays out.

by propdavid_london Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:27 pm

OK, so they are still involved.
I havent been keeping up with the U20s this year - so is SA a more formidable side than the Kiwis at the moment?

by lostinwales Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:32 pm

propdavid_london wrote:OK, so they are still involved.
I havent been keeping up with the U20s this year - so is SA a more formidable side than the Kiwis at the moment?

I only know what I have read online, but SA seem to have steamrollered all opposition so far whilst NZ have been run very close by Argentina.

by Hood83 Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:10 pm

DaveM wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:What was the final result?
I saw the 1st half and although the score line was quite impressive, I cant help feeling that was down to the quality of oppo.
We wont know till they play a stronger side, but I get the feeling that this U20s side isnt quite as strong as the last couple of seasons.

I look forward to being prooved wrong but I havent seen any superstars in there yet - but they do seem to be a good unit that works well together. Perhaps Chisholm could be up there.

Stars of the past U20s that stand out in games Ive watched are - Marler, Ford, Itoje, LCD, J.Clifford,

I'm pretty sure people queried the quality of last year's side, compared to their predecessors. In terms of future stars I'd suggest:

Paul Hill,
Jack Walker,
Nick Tompkins
Joseph Marchant

I also think the back three of Packman, Perkins and Morris have potential, as do Townsend, Jennings and Ewels.

But the only way to know how good the squad is at the end of the tournament.

I did. I have pretty much every year and I keep getting it wrong. But i also think individually we've had better teams, it's just the two times we won it we've had perhaps slightly greater balance. I also think Nick Walshe has been an excellent coach. The two years we won our basic back-line skills were better than any age grade rugby i'd seen from us, and our clearing out and support play was better than our men's team. I don;t think this is a vintage year and now I think we've had a big step down in coaching, so i'm not that impressed by us.

by Hood83 Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:11 pm

DaveM wrote:England were ok. We struggled in the scrum until Genge came on, but most other aspects (bar the restarts - I think we lost every one in the first half) were good. We looked dangerous ball in hand and Jennings showed good control. We were cruising until conceding a strange try just before half time, and then Wales were in charge for the next quarter with England compounding their errors. Once we'd driven over for the 4th try the game was over.

So, so far so good.

Ok, thanks Dave

by propdavid_london Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:21 pm

So, is the semi final tonight? I havent seen any articles on Sky about it yet!

by Cyril Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:27 pm

propdavid_london wrote:So, is the semi final tonight? I havent seen any articles on Sky about it yet!

Yep, kick off 8.30pm.

All fixtures for today's games here:

http://www.worldrugby.org/u20/fixtures

by propdavid_london Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:52 pm

Great, cheers Cyril

by broadlandboy Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:58 pm

Probably because BT are showing it

by Cumbrian Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:34 pm

Kick off is 7:30pm, not 8:30.

by The Saint Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:29 pm

Well done England U20!

by Poorfour Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:11 pm

That was a pretty impressive effort, all told, though the Baby Boks helped by not kicking for points. Some super aggressive defence from England.

by thomh Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:03 am

Who do people think the potential stars of this team are? While they're in the final again, it doesn't seem to be as easy to spot the future big-names as has previously been the case.

Chisholm, Ewels and Tompkins are all highly though of obviously, Jennings looks talented but raw and Marchant is missing but very exciting.

by Geordie Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:06 am

Some excellent performances...Paul Hill at TH. He's the leeds lad (hasn't he just moved this summer?)

Biased I know, but chuffed with Will Wittys performance.

by Poorfour Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:04 am

thomh wrote:Who do people think the potential stars of this team are? While they're in the final again, it doesn't seem to be as easy to spot the future big-names as has previously been the case.

Chisholm, Ewels and Tompkins are all highly though of obviously, Jennings looks talented but raw and Marchant is missing but very exciting.

Actually, what struck me this time was the quality of the team performance. England just looked far more organised than the Boks, especially in the pack. In previous years, individual performances have stood out to a much greater degree - Clifford dragging them back into the final against Wales almost singlehandedly springs to mind - but this year it seems like a much more consistent squad as a whole.

by Cyril Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:11 am

Cumbrian wrote:Kick off is 7:30pm, not 8:30.

Erm, yes. Sorry propdavid! Hope you didn't miss any of it.

Good performance. The follow-up shoves in the scrum for England were immense.

They never looked like losing after the penalty try and looked by far the better structured.

by Poorfour Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:23 am

Cyril wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Kick off is 7:30pm, not 8:30.
Erm, yes. Sorry propdavid! Hope you didn't miss any of it.

Good performance. The follow-up shoves in the scrum for England were immense.

They never looked like losing after the penalty try and looked by far the better structured.

They were clearly a bit disrupted by the squad changes in the France game, and looked back on song yesterday. Beating the Baby Blacks is still a huge ask though, given how they ripped France apart. That said, this English pack looks like a formidable weapon and didn't someone say the AB pack is a bit light this year?

by **LondonTiger** Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:33 am

BB pack was 6kg per man heavier than the French one. (Or at least I think I saw that mentioned on coverage)

by spaynter Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:54 am

LondonTiger wrote:BB pack was 6kg per man heavier than the French one. (Or at least I think I saw that mentioned on coverage)

I recall the Baby Boks were similarly weighted against England. Didn't seem to do them that much good. I'd say (even when they had a full pack) England were on top in the set pieces.

by thomh Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:55 am

Poorfour wrote:
thomh wrote:Who do people think the potential stars of this team are? While they're in the final again, it doesn't seem to be as easy to spot the future big-names as has previously been the case.

Chisholm, Ewels and Tompkins are all highly though of obviously, Jennings looks talented but raw and Marchant is missing but very exciting.

Actually, what struck me this time was the quality of the team performance. England just looked far more organised than the Boks, especially in the pack. In previous years, individual performances have stood out to a much greater degree - Clifford dragging them back into the final against Wales almost singlehandedly springs to mind - but this year it seems like a much more consistent squad as a whole.

Yeh that's kind of what I was thinking. Previous years have had Clifford, Nowell, Watson or Ford, Farrell, Launchbury, Wade etc who stood out as destined for massive things. I'm sure that will be true of some of this year's as well but it seems more of a consistent standard.

Chisholm and Marchant are great prospects from a Quins point of view.

by Poorfour Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:57 am

spaynter wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:BB pack was 6kg per man heavier than the French one. (Or at least I think I saw that mentioned on coverage)

I recall the Baby Boks were similarly weighted against England. Didn't seem to do them that much good. I'd say (even when they had a full pack) England were on top in the set pieces.

The English body angles in the scrum and maul were excellent and I think the ref (who generally did a good job) was a bit lenient on the Boks standing up in the later stages. Chisholm is a bit of a monster and seems to add huge shove from the base.

by thomh Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:04 pm

Poorfour wrote:
spaynter wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:BB pack was 6kg per man heavier than the French one. (Or at least I think I saw that mentioned on coverage)

I recall the Baby Boks were similarly weighted against England. Didn't seem to do them that much good. I'd say (even when they had a full pack) England were on top in the set pieces.

The English body angles in the scrum and maul were excellent and I think the ref (who generally did a good job) was a bit lenient on the Boks standing up in the later stages. Chisholm is a bit of a monster and seems to add huge shove from the base.

Strangely light though according to his Quins stats - presumably out of date.

by spaynter Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:11 pm

Poorfour wrote:
spaynter wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:BB pack was 6kg per man heavier than the French one. (Or at least I think I saw that mentioned on coverage)

I recall the Baby Boks were similarly weighted against England. Didn't seem to do them that much good. I'd say (even when they had a full pack) England were on top in the set pieces.

The English body angles in the scrum and maul were excellent and I think the ref (who generally did a good job) was a bit lenient on the Boks standing up in the later stages. Chisholm is a bit of a monster and seems to add huge shove from the base.

I do like Paul Hill. Bar a couple of obvious maul collapses, he was excellent.

by Cyril Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:13 pm

Regarding the scrums, why is it that the U20s lads seem to be able to scrum without collapsing or constantly infringing?

Are the refs less picky at this level, are the front row less savvy with the dark arts ie less milking of penalties taking place?

England may have been dominant and earned penalties from scrummaging, but at least there were completed scrums and not constant free-kicks or penalties for early shoves or incorrect binding/collapses.

by Hood83 Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:28 pm

Poorfour wrote:
thomh wrote:Who do people think the potential stars of this team are? While they're in the final again, it doesn't seem to be as easy to spot the future big-names as has previously been the case.

Chisholm, Ewels and Tompkins are all highly though of obviously, Jennings looks talented but raw and Marchant is missing but very exciting.

Actually, what struck me this time was the quality of the team performance. England just looked far more organised than the Boks, especially in the pack. In previous years, individual performances have stood out to a much greater degree - Clifford dragging them back into the final against Wales almost singlehandedly springs to mind - but this year it seems like a much more consistent squad as a whole.

Not sure I agree with this. Nick Walshe's teams were very well drilled with excellent basic skills, handling, defence and set piece. But also with a degree of freedom to attack and a commitment to running rugby. I'm not sure this year's crop is better drilled as a team.

by DaveM Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:13 am

I'd say that is the best forward display I think I've ever seen from an England u20 side. And they did look really well drilled as a team. What a comeback from the shambles of the France game.

by DaveM Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:29 pm

I think England can be fairly satisfied with that. Despite missing Marchant, our best back, and Mallinder (who would have provided an interesting option at 10/12) for the entire tournament, and Townsend (our best SH) for most of it, we came pretty close to winning 3 on the bounce. I thought the squad adapted fairly well. I reckon about two-thirds of them will go on to play regularly in the AP, and a few will go onto senior level. Ludlum looks a very good prospect - a typical Saints 6/7, but perhaps he can develop as a 7 as most of England's best breakdown work seemed to happen when he was on the pitch.

I think NZ probably deserved to edge the final, but Tompkins being incorrectly called back for off-side when England were ahead might have been decisive.

Overall I don't see any significant gap between England and NZ at age-group level. It will be interesting to see if this feeds through to a narrowing of the gap at senior level.

by Poorfour Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:46 pm

I thought Ludlum was physically impressive, but gave away a few too many daft penalties in the last quarter. If he can improve his decision making, he could be very good.

I'd forgotten that we'd lost Mallinder as well. Three top backs out is a lot to overcome.

by Geordie Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:53 am

Will any of them make an impact like say Clifford has this season.

As a Falcon fan, we saw a bit of Witty in the Euro games etc, but I expect we'll see more of him next season. He is most likely the reason we have allowed Barrow to go to Leicester (if the rumours are true)

by Poorfour Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will any of them make an impact like say Clifford has this season.

As a Falcon fan, we saw a bit of Witty in the Euro games etc, but I expect we'll see more of him next season. He is most likely the reason we have allowed Barrow to go to Leicester (if the rumours are true)

Chisholm, Tompkins, Clark looked like they had Clifford-level potential. Possibly also Ludlum if he can improve his decision-making. Of the missing players, Mallinder looks very exciting (the parallels with Greenwood in terms of size and heritage are intriguing). Unusually for a Quins player, I've not seen much of Marchant play but the word on him is very good.

That's at least half a dozen - if even one or two break through it would be a good hit rate.

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