Dylan Hartley Headbutt

by madmaccas Tue 26 May 2015, 6:37 pm

So it looks like Hartley is being hauled before another disciplinary committee for an alleged headbutt in last week's game against Saracens.

Here's a video of the incident:

http://vine.co/v/ebZ2Fen2gHg

If proven guilty he'll miss some of the August warmup games and, considering his lengthy record, potentially the World Cup itself.

Far from being the worst I've ever seen, he does plant his feet and lean in so I think they could claim intent.

by dummy_half Tue 26 May 2015, 7:04 pm

Silly, but not really a head butt, more him going up to confront an opponent over-aggressively. Posturing rather than anything much else. Some contact forehead to forehead, but without any intent to inflict damage to the opponent.

However, given DH's hardly unblemished disciplinary record, I can see a short ban. Not sure what the citing commission would class the incident as - general foul play? Couple of weeks I reckon, so might disrupt some warm up games, but not the RWC.

by The Saint Tue 26 May 2015, 7:07 pm

Not really a headbutt, and at least George didn't do an Azam... I think if it was anyone else this wouldn't have come to light. Hartley should be more careful though; his disciplinary record for stuff like this is surely one of the worst out there?

by madmaccas Tue 26 May 2015, 7:12 pm

dummy_half wrote:Silly, but not really a head butt, more him going up to confront an opponent over-aggressively with his head. Posturing rather than anything much else. Some contact forehead to forehead, but without any intent to inflict damage to the opponent.

That's the key point. I don't think there's much in it, but what a downright stupid thing to do! They'd just scored, why do it? Especially this close to the RWC. He's a liability and I just don't know when he'll ever learn.

The entry for a headbutt is a few weeks, but bearing in mind his record I could see it being far more as an example.

It's a pity because he may end up missing out on a winning Lions tour and a (potentially) World Cup winning England team.

by majesticimperialman Tue 26 May 2015, 7:19 pm

I don't recall seeing this headbut during the game. Did he get a yellow card for it?

If he did not get a card how can he be sited?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 May 2015, 7:28 pm

Think he did it to wind up Saracens and it worked. Don t think its bad, thought Burger went closer to the line during the game (and didnt go as far to deserve a citing).

by Poorfour Tue 26 May 2015, 7:33 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I don't recall seeing this headbut during the game. Did he get a yellow card for it?

If he did not get a card how can he be sited?

Citing is a strange and wondrous thing, o master. It was initially introduced supposedly to deal with incidents not spotted or addressed by the referee during the game, but rapidly became a way of responding to the court of public opinion. Martin Johnson correctly points out that he was (inaccurately, according to the letter of the law) cited and banned several times for things that had been sanctioned in a match.

Now, it appears to be that the rule is "any red card. plus anything that the citing commissioner wants to look at, regardless of whether the ref looked at it at the time" [1]. I didn't see the Hartley incident but apparently the ref and TMO did look at it during the game and decided not to do anything about it. That suggests that this is either a) a "clearing the air" exercise to review the evidence and make sure they made the right call or b) a serious citing because something else has come to light that wasn't obvious in the game.

If (a) then Hartley will probably get off. If (b) then he's in big trouble.

[1] Except if your name is Keven. In which case there is clearly no case to answer at any point. Oh no. Nothing to see here, move along please, move along.

by Big Tue 26 May 2015, 7:52 pm

Didn't see it at the time but did wonder when I saw the headline. I thought it was just posturing when Ayerza and Marler squared up a couple of years back, and Ayerza with a squeaky clean record still got a couple of weeks. This looks on a par with that incident, but Hartley's record is far from clean, so he may be in trouble regardless. The only positive to take from this is that if anything it should be a short ban, and at least that would prevent him from doing anything really stupid in the final and get banned from the world cup entirely.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 May 2015, 8:05 pm

Lowest amount of 4 weeks rules him out of the warm ups and probably wouldnt be chosen for the WC. Would be a huge loss.

by SecretFly Tue 26 May 2015, 8:34 pm

I wouldn't consider it a Head Butt... more a Stag claiming territory and superiority.

Old Hartley can't seem to help himself in the hoof stamping and nostril snorting rutting stuff.

He maybe should be darted and tagged on the ear to keep an eye on him and maybe he'll need culling if he upsets the herd too much in the future.

by maestegmafia Tue 26 May 2015, 8:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lowest amount of 4 weeks rules him out of the warm ups and probably wouldnt be chosen for the WC. Would be a huge loss.

Not a loss if his lack of temperament gets him in trouble for England.

There are plenty of good hookers to select instead of him.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 26 May 2015, 9:02 pm

Quite so. There's just not enough hugging and kissing in rugby these days. Damn ruffians, I'm off to watch the ballet.

by SecretFly Tue 26 May 2015, 9:07 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Quite so. There's just not enough hugging and kissing in rugby these days. Damn ruffians, I'm off to watch the ballet.

That'll be Ashton...another problem child in his own way.

by maestegmafia Tue 26 May 2015, 9:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Quite so. There's just not enough hugging and kissing in rugby these days. Damn ruffians, I'm off to watch the ballet.

That'll be Ashton...another problem child in his own way.

You would think this thread was about some kind of aggrieved victim rather than the worst behaved rugby player in the international game. He has spent an entire year on suspension for his on field actions...!

It beggars belief that so many fans turn a blind eye and blame anyone but him for his thuggery.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 May 2015, 10:00 pm

Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

by Gwlad Tue 26 May 2015, 10:29 pm

how many times does this get get the benefit of the doubt? Thug?…if the cap fits. As for head butting not being thuggish, unbelievable.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 26 May 2015, 10:32 pm

Poor Dylan, so misunderstood. Too many people picking on him.

by maestegmafia Tue 26 May 2015, 10:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Hartley lost his temper yet again.

You rarely see Richie McCaw lose his temper, or Matt Giteau, other hookers aren't always accused of biting, punching, gouging, head butting. You don't see Rory Best or Scott Baldwin constantly losing their temper in a game. Even Hartleys front row England mates like Corbisiero and Cole. None of those guys have a problem, they rarely get carded let alone sent off or cited for foul play.

Good players don't lose their cool thugs do.

by DaveM Tue 26 May 2015, 11:12 pm

I feared the worst, but having seen the clip I don't think there's anything in that at-all. It would be incredibly harsh for him to miss the WC for that. I have a vague recollection the video ref was asked to review it at the time and nothing came of it?

by Exiledinborders Tue 26 May 2015, 11:40 pm

i dislike Hartley but there is clearly no headbutt. Why is the citing commissioner wasting panels's time with a bit of pushing and shoving.

by Guest Wed 27 May 2015, 3:36 am

That was clearly a headbutt and you can see he leans into it. It was a pish poor headbutt admittedly from one of, if not the biggest, tossers in the game of rugby. It would be nice to see the book thrown at him for a change. I've seen too many incidents against the ABs where he gets off scot-free for pathetic niggly incidents like this.

by Guest Wed 27 May 2015, 4:05 am

Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 27 May 2015, 6:37 am

I don't think there was anything in it but if he puts himself in these positions in first place then it's his own fault. As a senior player both within his club and country set up he should know better.

by nathan Wed 27 May 2015, 6:50 am

Not really anything in it. A few on here seem to see that its Hartley and so should be banned for months on end dispite there being next to nothing in the actual incident

by **George Carlin** Wed 27 May 2015, 7:01 am

I agree that there's not much to this, but there's a bigger picture here.

Are England fans really happy risking a player on the park who does that kind of thing and may do it during a crucial RWC knock-out game where the stakes are higher and the greater pressure lends itself to carelessness? Being the club captain has tempered this, but clearly it's something of an unexploded bomb at all times.

Is he really so far ahead of the competition in his position?

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 May 2015, 8:01 am

The wonders of language. He's not been cited for a head butt (just as people don't get cited for eye gouging). He will have got cited for striking with the head. Which he did, by leading with the head. The interesting part will be if it get's deemed bad enough for the low entry. If it does he'll probably get at least 4 weeks I'd have though. But he could also get nothing. One thing, if these things get to discipline panels they usually get a ban because he did technically do it. You often see players cited (for 'incorrect' red card or opposition team) banned for things that happen often in games and nothing happens.

Very very minor, but given his history and the looming World Cup...very very stupid.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 27 May 2015, 8:10 am

I'm ambivalent about this. I don't think this incident was anything but, at the same time, he's always liable to be picked up for any hint of foul play.

by Guest Wed 27 May 2015, 8:26 am

Rugby Fan, the way you said that made it sound like there are heaps of rugby players 'leading with their heads' out there that are being ignored by referees and the citing commissioner. But because it's Hartley, he'll get nicked. Was that the gist of it? Because if I'm honest, I don't see too many players doing this kind of thing. The last one I saw was Etzebeth for brushing his head up to another player and he got seriously done for it iirc.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 8:41 am

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Hartley lost his temper yet again.

You rarely see Richie McCaw lose his temper, or Matt Giteau, other hookers aren't always accused of biting, punching, gouging, head butting. You don't see Rory Best or Scott Baldwin constantly losing their temper in a game. Even Hartleys front row England mates like Corbisiero and Cole. None of those guys have a problem, they rarely get carded let alone sent off or cited for foul play.

Good players don't lose their cool thugs do.

Don't think you've watched the incident. He's trying to get a reaction, he did. It's exactly what people try to do to him. Some good players do lose their cool. There's not a dividing line between hot head and good at sport.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 9:06 am

ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 9:08 am

George Carlin wrote:I agree that there's not much to this, but there's a bigger picture here.

Are England fans really happy risking a player on the park who does that kind of thing and may do it during a crucial RWC knock-out game where the stakes are higher and the greater pressure lends itself to carelessness? Being the club captain has tempered this, but clearly it's something of an unexploded bomb at all times.

Is he really so far ahead of the competition in his position?

To be fair, he has a better disciplinary record for England, than he does for his club.

Neither make for particularly pleasant reading though.

by Guest Wed 27 May 2015, 9:09 am

Come on Jimpy, I don't need a BA (Hons) in psychology to know that Hartley's mind is clearly fla...wait a minute Wink

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 9:10 am

ebop wrote:Come on Jimpy, I don't need a BA (Hons) in psychology to know that Hartley's mind is clearly fla...wait a minute

Ha! Now that was comedy!

by TJ Wed 27 May 2015, 9:11 am

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Hartley lost his temper yet again.

You rarely see Richie McCaw lose his temper, or Matt Giteau, other hookers aren't always accused of biting, punching, gouging, head butting. You don't see Rory Best or Scott Baldwin constantly losing their temper in a game. Even Hartleys front row England mates like Corbisiero and Cole. None of those guys have a problem, they rarely get carded let alone sent off or cited for foul play.

Good players don't lose their cool thugs do.

Indeed. I understood Hartley was seeing a head doctor to get his temper under control. He clearly was over agressive and lead with his head so its not worked. Not a real headbutt but worth a short ban and the end of his international career

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 9:17 am

Was it aggressive really TJ? Or was he trying to rub Saracens noses in it to get the big blow up particularly from Burger then walk away absolutely calmly? I know a fair few people want to have a dig at him but he's just done what a load of people were wanting others to do to him. Wind them up and watch them go.

by TJ Wed 27 May 2015, 9:25 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Its not a particularly bad incident but if seen by the ref pen maybe yellow. However its what it shows thats the issue - Hartley still cannot control his temper

by yappysnap Wed 27 May 2015, 9:30 am

Dylan Hartley is an idiot, once again just before an important international period he blots his copy book with some unnecessary and pointless antics.

That's the worst thing about this incident, it achieved nothing, there was no point behind it and no one benefits. All it's done is made him look worse, meant that England may now go to the RWC without one of their most capped players and Dylan will again be left wondering what if.

What a plonker. I don't want him playing for England, his forms pants anyway.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 9:31 am

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Its not a particularly bad incident but if seen by the ref pen maybe yellow. However its what it shows thats the issue - Hartley still cannot control his temper

Again he didn't lose his temper; did you watch the game?

by offload Wed 27 May 2015, 9:33 am

Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

by The Saint Wed 27 May 2015, 9:34 am

Jimpy wrote:
ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

Bueller is taking the day off.

by bluestonevedder Wed 27 May 2015, 9:37 am

Looks to me like he was just pumped up after winning a penalty and overstepped the mark a bit. Yes, totally stupid thing to do especially if your name is Dylan Hartley.

Certainly not really malicious in my eyes. If he were to miss the world cup for this, I think it would be more for his past misdemeanours.

What a plonker he really is.

by TJ Wed 27 May 2015, 9:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Its not a particularly bad incident but if seen by the ref pen maybe yellow. However its what it shows thats the issue - Hartley still cannot control his temper

Again he didn't lose his temper; did you watch the game?

No - I only saw the clip - he certainly looks out of control to me in that clip and if he behaves like that he is always risking a card. Do you see McCaw do things like that? Its stupid from Hartley at best.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 9:43 am

I suggest you watch the extended version.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 9:50 am

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cant speak for everyone but I just dont see this as very thuggish. By your words are judging Hartley or this incident?

Its not a particularly bad incident but if seen by the ref pen maybe yellow. However its what it shows thats the issue - Hartley still cannot control his temper

Again he didn't lose his temper; did you watch the game?

No - I only saw the clip - he certainly looks out of control to me in that clip and if he behaves like that he is always risking a card. Do you see McCaw do things like that? Its stupid from Hartley at best.

Of course you don't. Nobody sees McCaw doing anything, particularly referees near the breakdown.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 9:51 am

offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again.... picard

by TJ Wed 27 May 2015, 10:07 am

Jimpy wrote:

Of course you don't. Nobody sees McCaw doing anything, particularly referees near the breakdown.

by **George Carlin** Wed 27 May 2015, 10:16 am

As a Glasgow fan, I am delighted with this distinction.

If ever my fellow Weegies get arrested for sticking the nut in someone, I will tell them to claim that they 'leaned with their head' and that they were merely exercising their right as elite atheletes to try and gain a competitive advantage over the bloke behind them in the kebab shop queue trying to steal their chips.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 27 May 2015, 10:29 am

ebop wrote:Rugby Fan, the way you said that made it sound like there are heaps of rugby players 'leading with their heads' out there that are being ignored by referees and the citing commissioner. But because it's Hartley, he'll get nicked. Was that the gist of it? Because if I'm honest, I don't see too many players doing this kind of thing. The last one I saw was Etzebeth for brushing his head up to another player and he got seriously done for it iirc.

You're right, I wasn't particularly clear. I don't think this incident warrants a punishment - I suspect you might disagree - but whereas I might leap to another player's defence, I'm not really inclined to do so with Hartley anymore.

If he does pick up a ban, and if that does put him beyond the pale for Lancaster, then I'll feel disappointed for the player but I won't feel as if any great injustice has been done.

by Geordie Wed 27 May 2015, 10:35 am

I always think these ones are funny threads.

If he's your player you defend, but every other country will have a go.

Same with players like Bakkies etc.

Hartleys England discipline is better than his club as has been mentioned before. The problem is he knows he is always being watched so its a bit thick to keep getting caught.

The bigger problem is that for the last few years Hartleys form has been electric for England...I would safely put him as the best in the world....but this season I don't believe Hartley has been anywhere near that level. This brings into the question...should he be starting for us anyway. Should it be Youngs?

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 10:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I always think these ones are funny threads.

If he's your player you defend, but every other country will have a go.

Same with players like Bakkies etc.

Hartleys England discipline is better than his club as has been mentioned before. The problem is he knows he is always being watched so its a bit thick to keep getting caught.

The bigger problem is that for the last few years Hartleys form has been electric for England...I would safely put him as the best in the world....but this season I don't believe Hartley has been anywhere near that level. This brings into the question...should he be starting for us anyway. Should it be Youngs?

Youngs carries well, but his line-out stats are not as good as Hartley's. Hartley has good line-out stats, but doesn't carry as well.

For me, you've got to win your set piece every time - so Hartley starts ahead of Youngs.

Who else have we got that could match either player really.

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