Dylan Hartley Headbutt

First topic message reminder :

So it looks like Hartley is being hauled before another disciplinary committee for an alleged headbutt in last week's game against Saracens.

Here's a video of the incident:

http://vine.co/v/ebZ2Fen2gHg

If proven guilty he'll miss some of the August warmup games and, considering his lengthy record, potentially the World Cup itself.

Far from being the worst I've ever seen, he does plant his feet and lean in so I think they could claim intent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a little sketchy with the citing rulings, when they reviewed the incident during the match if he'd picked up a yellow would they have been able to ban him?

Yes - if the citing officer deemed it to be worthy of a red.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

dummy_half wrote:jbeadle

The 'last warning' is not something that we know the terms of, or if it formally exists rather than Lancaster having said 'don't do anything silly'.

I've said elsewhere that I expect Hartley to be kept in, but I'm only 60:40 on that. If he is left out of the RWC squad I can see us moving on to the young up and coming hookers and him being effectively frozen out unless we have a major injury crisis.

I'd agree with that. Clearly, though, you can't get much more silly than picking up a ban for something trivial, simply because you couldn't keep your cool in a high pressure environment. Hartley does now have a bit of form for losing his head on the biggest stage. You would have to suspect that Lancaster is giving serious consideration as to whether he can trust Hartley at the World Cup.

As has been said, Hartley's discipline is much better for country than club, I would imagine Lancaster will field him without too much consideration.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok yes assault is assault your right...but there's different levels, and I guess we both agree this is not a severe level.

We absolutely agree. However, there are a few on here who've gleefully pounced on this, and sensationalised it to suit their own rather obvious dislike for the player, his club, or his country.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a little sketchy with the citing rulings, when they reviewed the incident during the match if he'd picked up a yellow would they have been able to ban him?

Yes - if the citing officer deemed it to be worthy of a red.

Ta

4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

With the 4 hookers named in the 50 squad, on current form, would Hartley have started the first WC match?

Almost certainly he would have

The question is whether we can afford to take the risk, not with his discipline which is generally good for England, but in terms of the limit on squad numbers. This put it best from the Guardian

"The England head coach will have to draft in another hooker to cover for Hartley’s absence in the warm-ups and he knows naming him in the 31-strong squad for the World Cup would be a risk, and not just because of the player’s disciplinary track record.

Lancaster will pick three hookers. If Hartley is among them and one of the other two is injured before the Fiji match, England would not have a hooker on the bench. The second encounter is against Wales and Hartley would be an unlikely starter, not having played for four months, although his suspension covers only games and he would be free to play a full part in training sessions."

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

I'm struggling to think of another player with a worse track record of losing it during knockout games. I think he's our best hooker, and I don't think there was much in that headbutt, but it was stupid.

As has been mentioned Hartley has been much better behaved playing for England, though there was a silly YC against SA last year.

mid_gen wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

I'm struggling to think of another player with a worse track record of losing it during knockout games. I think he's our best hooker, and I don't think there was much in that headbutt, but it was stupid.

As has been said, he got a YC v SA last year - apart from that when else did he lose it in a WC knock-out game?

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

I'm struggling to think of another player with a worse track record of losing it during knockout games. I think he's our best hooker, and I don't think there was much in that headbutt, but it was stupid.

As has been said, he got a YC v SA last year - apart from that when else did he lose it in a WC knock-out game?

He's lost it in the last two AP season knockouts. You're saying WC games are less pressure? If he plays in the WC *every* opposition forward is going to be winding him up. His track record does not indicate he is going to stay cool.

Did he really lose it here? really? Burger lost it twice in the match, once because of Hartley.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Did he really lose it here? really? Burger lost it twice in the match, once because of Hartley.

Well I'm assuming he didn't make a rational, reasoned decision to do it. If it wasn't a rush of blood to the head, then it's obviously his judgement at fault. Either way he's a liability.

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

I'm struggling to think of another player with a worse track record of losing it during knockout games. I think he's our best hooker, and I don't think there was much in that headbutt, but it was stupid.

As has been said, he got a YC v SA last year - apart from that when else did he lose it in a WC knock-out game?

So far as I'm aware, Hartley has only played around 30 minutes of knock-out World Cup rugby. According to ESPN, he did concede a penalty in that time (no idea what for). He also started one group game and picked up a yellow card.

To back up the view that Hartley loses it on the biggest occasions - in addition to the Premiership final red, he's also received bans for biting Ferris in a 6 nations game and punching Rory Best in a Heino cup match. And he got red carded in an East Midlands derby.

I'd think it's on a knife edge as to whether he'll be dropped. On the one hand, he's an experienced player, who is a reliable line-out thrower (and plays every week with Lawes). On the other, it would probably require a 4th hooker in the squad (at whose expense?), and his temperament, whether or not better with England, is undeniably suspect.

mid_gen wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Did he really lose it here? really? Burger lost it twice in the match, once because of Hartley.

Well I'm assuming he didn't make a rational, reasoned decision to do it. If it wasn't a rush of blood to the head, then it's obviously his judgement at fault. Either way he's a liability.

Completely disagree. I think he went to wind up Saracens to get a reaction, precisely the sort of thing people are saying should/will happen to Hartley.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mid_gen wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Did he really lose it here? really? Burger lost it twice in the match, once because of Hartley.

Well I'm assuming he didn't make a rational, reasoned decision to do it. If it wasn't a rush of blood to the head, then it's obviously his judgement at fault. Either way he's a liability.

Completely disagree. I think he went to wind up Saracens to get a reaction, precisely the sort of thing people are saying should/will happen to Hartley.

There are plenty of ways to niggle people in the front 5 without resorting to headbutting someone in front of an array of TV cameras. If that was his intention then equally, it was bloody stupid and his judgement was poor.

It's not a headbutt is it. It's putting his head to someone looking for a punch etc. Don't particularly like to see the wind ups but it's pretty accepted.

I thought it was more a case of the Elder Stag rutting horns with the younger one in an "I'm still the boss" kind of way.

It was not really a head butt, more a collision of heads - though with George's gut not really sure how Hartley got close enough.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:4 weeks, misses first WC game. I wouldn't mind if Lancs dropped him tbh, he's a disaster waiting to happen in a tense WC match.

Er, probably not actually.

I'm struggling to think of another player with a worse track record of losing it during knockout games. I think he's our best hooker, and I don't think there was much in that headbutt, but it was stupid.

As has been said, he got a YC v SA last year - apart from that when else did he lose it in a WC knock-out game?

So far as I'm aware, Hartley has only played around 30 minutes of knock-out World Cup rugby. According to ESPN, he did concede a penalty in that time (no idea what for). He also started one group game and picked up a yellow card.

To back up the view that Hartley loses it on the biggest occasions - in addition to the Premiership final red, he's also received bans for biting Ferris in a 6 nations game and punching Rory Best in a Heino cup match. And he got red carded in an East Midlands derby.

I'd think it's on a knife edge as to whether he'll be dropped. On the one hand, he's an experienced player, who is a reliable line-out thrower (and plays every week with Lawes). On the other, it would probably require a 4th hooker in the squad (at whose expense?), and his temperament, whether or not better with England, is undeniably suspect.

Regardless of the examples you cite, Hartley's discipline is better in an England shirt, when compared to his club form. It is being suggested his temperament is transferable when it is demonstrably not. The original premise is that he's an accident waiting to happen in a WC game. Actually, he's no more likely to be so than a lot of other players statistically - and may I also say that it's unlikely that at international level, opposition players haven't targeted him before in order to get a reaction.

Can't deny he lives dangerously, but is less so for England.

LondonTiger wrote:I thought it was more a case of the Elder Stag rutting horns with the younger one in an "I'm still the boss" kind of way.

It was not really a head butt, more a collision of heads - though with George's gut not really sure how Hartley got close enough.

Hartley's fat head? Seriously, I know that video is just a snapshot of what was happening from on angle but it looks like  a lot of fuss over very little, driven by Hartley's reputation.

If he had really planted a serious head butt on George I'd be all for throwing the book at the guy, but this event seems so trivial.

I know there is a fine line in these things between actions and consequences, but given that its a contact sport and lots and lots of 'actions' happen rugby should really concentrate on nailing those which cross the line, which could or do lead to injury, rather than this kind of thing.

At a guess he would have got less of a ban (although an almost certain yellow or worse) had he actually thrown a punch

Hartley is lucky he is not playing in Pro12. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) got sent off and a 10 week ban reduced to 5 as a first offender for a very similar incident earlier this season. Using the same criteria, Hartley would have coped 10 weeks plus from the Pro12 disciplinary board, as a serial offender.

4 weeks is ridiculous. There's no way George can have been hurt. This is a 4 week ban for being a d*ck and last time I looked, there was nothing in the law book about that......

Seagultaf wrote:Hartley is lucky he is not playing in Pro12. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) got sent off and a 10 week ban reduced to 5 as a first offender for a very similar incident earlier this season. Using the same criteria, Hartley would have coped 10 weeks plus from the Pro12 disciplinary board, as a serial offender.

I think most AP players consider themselves lucky they aren't. If you end up there, you know you've failed

spaynter wrote:4 weeks is ridiculous. There's no way George can have been hurt. This is a 4 week ban for being a d*ck and last time I looked, there was nothing in the law book about that......

If there was, Gavin Henson would be swinging from a gallows by now.

It was either a rush of blood to the head, or a deliberate act of stupidity. Either way I don't believe that he can selectively snap out of the mindset that makes him do stuff like that just because he's in an England shirt.

4 weeks is harsh for that, but he has the history. He knows that, yet he still did it.

mid_gen wrote:It was either a rush of blood to the head, or a deliberate act of stupidity. Either way I don't believe that he can selectively snap out of the mindset that makes him do stuff like that just because he's in an England shirt.

4 weeks is harsh for that, but he has the history. He knows that, yet he still did it.

I understand 4 weeks is the minimum tariff for the offence, so harsh it might be, but its the least he might have expected.

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

I'd say yours is on its way Jimpy if you can't connect the dots.

is that your flawed psyche leaving the building?

As a Welsh fan I would be happy to not see him in the England team we play at the WC. I think he is your most effective hooker, strong in the scrum, hits his jumpers at lineouts and carries and tackles pretty well.

However, there becomes a point where you need to maintain composure within high stress situations. Woodward's TCUP ( Thinking Clearly Under Pressure) doesn't seem to fit with him. I agree, the 'headbutt' was fairly innocuous, so the question needs to be asked, why risk yourself in that situation.

It leaves Lancaster in a tricky situation for the Wales game. 1. No Hartley in the squad and risk Youngs' throwing in with Webber on the bench I would imagine? 2. Start with Youngs and bring a rusty Hartley off the bench. 3. Start Hartley with no warm up matches in him and hope.

Option 4. Start Hartley and he headbutts Welsh hooker and rest of pack.

Like others I don't think there was a lot in the incident but a senior player with his previous discipline issues should know better.

His discipline for England is generally good though but SL has to make a statement I think and show that he can't continue doing it all the time.

Jimpy wrote:

mid_gen wrote:It was either a rush of blood to the head, or a deliberate act of stupidity. Either way I don't believe that he can selectively snap out of the mindset that makes him do stuff like that just because he's in an England shirt.

4 weeks is harsh for that, but he has the history. He knows that, yet he still did it.

I understand 4 weeks is the minimum tariff for the offence, so harsh it might be, but its the least he might have expected.

The minimu is half the lower entry point, so 2 weeks.

Might be 2 weeks for most players but sadly with his record that isnt going to happen

chris_501 wrote:As a Welsh fan I would be happy to not see him in the England team we play at the WC. I think he is your most effective hooker, strong in the scrum, hits his jumpers at lineouts and carries and tackles pretty well.

However, there becomes a point where you need to maintain composure within high stress situations. Woodward's TCUP ( Thinking Clearly Under Pressure) doesn't seem to fit with him. I agree, the 'headbutt' was fairly innocuous, so the question needs to be asked, why risk yourself in that situation.

It leaves Lancaster in a tricky situation for the Wales game. 1. No Hartley in the squad and risk Youngs' throwing in with Webber on the bench I would imagine? 2. Start with Youngs and bring a rusty Hartley off the bench. 3. Start Hartley with no warm up matches in him and hope.

I think Hartleys carrying is poor for his size and athleticisim...but the rest he is good at.

I also don't think Youngs throwing is as poor as everyone makes out. He struggles (at times) coming off the bench yes...but he doesn't seem to have any issues when he's starting hooker with players he has practiced with. So I wouldn't consider that an issue if he started the first game...which looks likely.
His carrying is stronger than Hartleys by quite a way...and many would argue his scrummaging is as well...but that's up to individual opinions.

Webber would be bench and then take the next game after that ....analyse players individual performances and fitness.

Gwlad wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

I'd say yours is on its way Jimpy if you can't connect the dots.

is that your flawed psyche leaving the building?

One thing's for sure, you wouldn't have a clue if it was or not.

Rumours that Hartley will be dropped from RWC squad today, expected to be confirmed at lunchtime

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/32931690

Not too surprising. I'm with those who say that, while there wasn't much in this incident itself, someone with his record needs to know that he shouldn't put himself in that situation again. Just steer clear of it all. Fact is he's never learnt that.

Jamie George takes his place ironically

Someone above somewhere said they'd prefer to see Hartley miss out than Tuilagi.  They have a right to have that opinion of course.

Me, I feel a little sad for old nostril flare hot head Hartley.  Tuilagi is still young and at least got to events before acting the cod.  And will get to other ones I think.

But if this is true, Hartley has now been in the departure lounge twice for a BIG event and failed to make it onto the plane - or bus in this case!

I know he's a nuisance player for the niggles but I've always seen him as a childish spirit, still doing the playground 'I'm a big lad, bigger than you!' antics.  I've never considered him a thug.  Just a fully grown naughty boy.  I pity him that his playground mentality lost him the two biggest events perhaps in his career

Understandable but unfortunate

I agree with you Fly. For me it was not an offence worth a 4 week ban, and I think once that ban was given it was a very difficult situation for Lancaster as the risks of only having 2 available hookers for a game against Fiji, then having Hartley with no game time are quite obvious

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/dylan-hartley-withdrawn-from-rwc-training-squad/

RFU Statement

BamBam wrote:I agree with you Fly. For me it was not an offence worth a 4 week ban, and I think once that ban was given it was a very difficult situation for Lancaster as the risks of only having 2 available hookers for a game against Fiji, then having Hartley with no game time are quite obvious

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/dylan-hartley-withdrawn-from-rwc-training-squad/

RFU Statement

Striking an opponent is a pretty serious offence and if it'd been in the street he'd end up with a criminal record so getting off lightly, given that good behaviour sees bans decreased its baffling that repeat offenders don't get increases

Is it not his third event? I'm pretty sure his gouging ban ruled him out of 2007 world cup. Could be wrong of course.

When I think about it, Hartley is the only yellow card I can think of under Lancaster for 'dirty' play (South Africa last November). Unless someone can tell me otherwise? Every other card has been for stupid, professional fouls.

So, Youngs will be first choice but who is going to be 2nd? Plenty to play for. 

And if there are any injuries amongst the hookers Hartley may come back.

MichaelT wrote:Is it not his third event? I'm pretty sure his gouging ban ruled him out of 2007 world cup. Could be wrong of course.

Technically it did but I doubt he was a serious contender at the time. He had made his Saxons debut just before this, but had to wait till June 2009 for his first start for England.

What a clown.

I would suggest that's his England career over now.

Youngs, Webber, George, LCD will probably move ahead now.

Yep, to be honest he has been poor for a while living off past form.

Hartley being dropped was his own fault, but I do feel sorry for him. He will be gutted at losing out on a home World Cup. Still, one man's loss is another's man's gain, and all that.

LondonTiger wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Is it not his third event? I'm pretty sure his gouging ban ruled him out of 2007 world cup. Could be wrong of course.

Technically it did but I doubt he was a serious contender at the time. He had made his Saxons debut just before this, but had to wait till June 2009 for his first start for England.

The only thing that would make me think he was a contender for the squad was that Mark Regan was brought in for the tournament after having not played for England for 3 years at that point.