The Ashes Thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Some news from the Aussie camp

Chris Rogers will miss the first test with a head injury
Steve Smith has been promoted to bat 3 (hate it hate it hate it leave him alone)

[CaledonianCraig]

I agree a change had to be made - most definitely. I just think that if Ballance had to go then so did Bell. Perhaps there should have been two changes instead of the one.

[LondonTiger]

Compton got a rough deal, mainly because England had seen Cook and Root being the long term opening partnership.

First they gave him the unenviable job of opening in India - wher he generally met his prime objective of seeing of the new ball, but did not kick on, and averaged 26.

He then got hundreds in the first two tests in NZ - sharing double hundred partnerships with Cook for the first and Trott for the second. Slightly unfairly these were viewed by pundits as cheap runs.

His next 6 innings went 13, 2, 16, 15, 1, 7 and surely people remember just how shell shocked he looked by the end of that. England should really have supported him better but as I said at the start, I feel they viewed Root as the man - and so they made the change.

[LivinginItaly]

Yes, on this thread or maybe the 2nd test thread i too advocated bringing in Taylor for bell. However, i think we all know how reluctant the selectors are to make too many changes at the same time. In reality i had a horrible feeling that maybe the selectors would have just added bairstow to the squad, but then the same 11 would have ended up playing in the 3rd test.

[guildfordbat]

Well I personally wouldn't have dropped Ballance ...

Clearly. You tipped him to be England's top scorer in the series!

[msp83]

Rather harsh on Ballance. Ian Bell can consider himself very, very lucky indeed. Will still play the 4th test though, even if he makes a pair at his home ground!! They really trust him to deliver! He's a fine player to watch when on form, but he has had his more than fair share of rough patches in his career, and after the India series in 2011, his inconsistency has gone on to a new level. The selectors and team management would hope he'll play a big innings and save their faces and his career in the next test.

[Liam]

Ballance had to go. His technique at the moment almost guarantees he won't score runs against this aussie attack. He can't play the bouncer and when it's pitched half volley length he's so far back he can't get his bat down. At least with Bell his technique is excellent, just that he's incredibly out of form and maybe just too old.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well I personally wouldn't have dropped Ballance ...

Clearly. You tipped him to be England's top scorer in the series!

Shhhh Guildford...

[Hoggy_Bear]

Different Ashes, but congrats to the England women's team on winning the first ODI

[JDizzle]

Class knock from Nat Sciver/Shiver/Skiver (delete as applicable). Very much looking forward to my trip to Worcs for the final ODI on Sunday!

[LondonTiger]

And every time I see Sarah Taylor behind the stumps, I wonder if she is the best keeper in England.

[wisden]

she's the best keeper in the world, particuarly standing up to the stumps

[VTR]

And every time I see Sarah Taylor behind the stumps, I wonder if she is the best keeper in England.

Its hard to say as the approach in the men's game doesn't ever really allow the best keeper to play at the top level. We don't really know how good a mature Read or Foster would be behind the stumps for England

[KP_fan]

I see Ballance is gone...he really had 3 bad games only.

Not that dropping Ballance on 3 bad games is a problem in itsefl...but it does become a sticky issue when Bell and Lyth stay

If you are a Zimbabwean, Irish, Asian, SA background...your rope is shorter than an English-English is the implicit message repeated oft.

[VTR]

If you are a Zimbabwean, Irish, Asian, SA  background...your rope is shorter than an English-English is the implicit message repeated oft.

Sorry but that's nonsense - I don't think Ballance can argue with being dropped, Bell might be lucky but it was one or the other and they have chosen to retain the man with experience. Maybe not the right call for some, but you can see the thought process and it has nothing to do with place of birth.

[SimonofSurrey]

KP_fan, I'm confused. With your approximate grasp of nationality and your conspiracy theories surrounding that, do you at least concede that Yorkshire is part of England - or maybe England is just a part of Yorkshire?

The small change made by England makes sense. Much as I would like to have seen several new faces, that in many ways would be what the Aussies would have wanted too, so best avoided. Good idea to move Bell to 3. He's a class player and it's a slightly different pressure coming in early at 3 than it is coming in very early at 4. We could yet squeeze another couple of scores from him before, in all probability, he calls it a day by the end of this series (especially if England some how come back from Lords to win the Ashes). Bairstow at 5 is the poisoned chalice: whether he comes in with England 3 for nothing much or, less probably, 3 for a decent score, the pressure will be on him either to dig us out a hole or keep earlier momentum up.

[CaledonianCraig]

I see Ballance is gone...he really had 3 bad games only.

Not that dropping Ballance on 3 bad games is a problem in itsefl...but it does become a sticky issue when Bell and Lyth stay

If you are a Zimbabwean, Irish, Asian, SA  background...your rope is shorter than an English-English is the implicit message repeated oft.

I think you are confused a little. I'd say the bias is more towards players in the squad for years who get exra protection. Look at Jonathan Trott as an example of that and he has South African blood in him.

[KP_fan]

Jonathan Trott is actually a case you don't wanna use as an example..he was so badly used / abused and stressed by Eng  ...that he broke down.

On another note Taylor looked fantastic when I saw him in the world cup.....very good test match potential.
Wonder why they didn't bring him in...he would have fitted nicely in the top 4 in terms of technique against the relatively new ball

[CaledonianCraig]

Jonathan Trott is actually a case you don't wanna use as an example..he was so badly used / abused and stressed by Eng  ...that he broke down

No he is a case I want to use. He was given time to recover, declared himself recovered and walked right back into the side and flopped and continued to flop and was kept in the side until he quit.

[Liam]

the trouble is, no matter how out of form a player like bell/trott/kp are, they will always, rightly or wrongly get longer to regain form because if they do, they are world class match winning players. Simple as that. if bell regains form, he's one of the best out there and can take games away from teams. Ballance has time on his side, and can go away and work on his weaknesses and come back a stronger player for it. bell is coming to the end of his career, so why not give it one more chance and if he fails, well you show him the door and bring in some new blood. he regains form and england have a match winner in their side.

[CaledonianCraig]

the trouble is, no matter how out of form a player like bell/trott/kp are, they will always, rightly or wrongly get longer to regain form because if they do, they are world class match winning players. Simple as that. if bell regains form, he's one of the best out there and can take games away from teams. Ballance has time on his side, and can go away and work on his weaknesses and come back a stronger player for it. bell is coming to the end of his career, so why not give it one more chance and if he fails, well you show him the door and bring in some new blood. he regains form and england have a match winner in their side.

The thing is Liam how many more 'last chances' does he get hankering after past glories. Bell has been out of form for over a year now. I will confidently predict he won't get axed until it is way too late in this series (probably until its over) or until he retires.

[Liam]

the trouble is, no matter how out of form a player like bell/trott/kp are, they will always, rightly or wrongly get longer to regain form because if they do, they are world class match winning players. Simple as that. if bell regains form, he's one of the best out there and can take games away from teams. Ballance has time on his side, and can go away and work on his weaknesses and come back a stronger player for it. bell is coming to the end of his career, so why not give it one more chance and if he fails, well you show him the door and bring in some new blood. he regains form and england have a match winner in their side.

The thing is Liam how many more 'last chances' does he get hankering after past glories. Bell has been out of form for over a year now. I will confidently predict he won't get axed until it is way too late in this series (probably until its over) or until he retires.

trouble is bell is a bit like how strauss was, when they were on their last legs they pulled something out of the bag, like strauss did in nz. I don't think it's completely right that they get given 9 lives, but sometimes it's worth persevering imo. In this case however, i really do believe this is bell's last chance and i think he knows it as well.

[VTR]

Jonathan Trott is actually a case you don't wanna use as an example..he was so badly used / abused and stressed by Eng  ...that he broke down.

A bit of reading material for you: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/jonathan-trott-lowers-sights-for-return-to-fold-as-england-opener-10169276.html

Or you could just bury your head in the sand and continue posting utter tripe

[liverbnz]

Jonathan Trott is actually a case you don't wanna use as an example..he was so badly used / abused and stressed by Eng  ...that he broke down

No he is a case I want to use. He was given time to recover, declared himself recovered and walked right back into the side and flopped and continued to flop and was kept in the side until he quit.

Continued to flop? Kept in the side? He was in for 3 Tests! I know I shouldn't be surprised any more but short-termism these days is incredible.

Same thing yesterday with Lyth 'failing all the time'. You'd think he'd been in the Test team for years.

[Pal Joey]

It's times like these I'm glad I'm not a moderator anymore.  

We can all see where Swami's coming from but the connection with Trott's condition is a bit below the belt, is it not?

If Bell fails again in Edgbaston then maybe the selectors will look at playing Taylor for Trent Bridge. No doubt they will have a few options available after the 3rd Test. We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out.

Bloody hell!
Haddin now "emotionally stable" enough to return to the side. Seems a pity when the side is travelling so well.
I would have thought he'd be back home with his wife and daughter. He's woefully out of form with the bat.

I really enjoyed watching Nevill play in his debut. Such a breath of fresh air.
Sledge free wicket keeping. No (audible) smart-arse remarks, etc. Don't want a return to that sort of behaviour.

[VTR]

Jonathan Trott is actually a case you don't wanna use as an example..he was so badly used / abused and stressed by Eng  ...that he broke down

No he is a case I want to use. He was given time to recover, declared himself recovered and walked right back into the side and flopped and continued to flop and was kept in the side until he quit.

Continued to flop? Kept in the side? He was in for 3 Tests! I know I shouldn't be surprised any more but short-termism these days is incredible.

Same thing yesterday with Lyth 'failing all the time'. You'd think he'd been in the Test team for years.

Pedant alert! Its emotive language, it would be a very dull message board if everyone just dryly stated the exact facts!

[liverbnz]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

[CaledonianCraig]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

So are you claiming he was axed before his time? And as for Lyth I have not made any savaging remarks regarding his remaining in the side. It is too soon to axe him on two fronts. 1. He hasn't been given long enough to prove himself. 2. As openers go in CC he has the best record out there so who do you replace him with?

[CaledonianCraig]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

And Trott's issues were spread over far more than just a few months. Yes I know it was not his fault he had mental issues that ruled him out of the last Ashes series but that issue was an issue that put a question mark over his future right there and then that would have torpedoed many sportsman's careers at international level. After a spell out he returned to the fold needing to show he could still perform at that level and flopped and he was not axed he actually quit international cricket. Who knows? If he hadn't quit the selectors may still have been selecting him.

[VTR]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

Not really - sadly sometimes you can see quite early that someone isn't going to make it. Craig I remember called the Trott thing after one Test, and was quite right as he looked a shadow of the player he was, it was almost cruel to then give him the rest of the series

Lyth just doesn't look international class to me - and 4 games is enough for me to judge that. Remember there are players who get one game and that is it, and a lot of those cases you can tell even from the smallest sample possible they aren't good enough - Gavin Hamilton, Simon Kerrigan and Amjad Khan are a few off the top of my head.

[CaledonianCraig]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

Not really - sadly sometimes you can see quite early that someone isn't going to make it. Craig I remember called the Trott thing after one Test, and was quite right as he looked a shadow of the player he was, it was almost cruel to then give him the rest of the series

Lyth just doesn't look international class to me - and 4 games is enough for me to judge that. Remember there are players who get one game and that is it, and a lot of those cases you can tell even from the smallest sample possible they aren't good enough - Gavin Hamilton, Simon Kerrigan and Amjad Khan are a few off the top of my head.

You may be right with regards to Lyth but if changes were made there I'd prefer to see Compton getting another chance. I mean Bairstow averages just under 26 with the bat and is getting another chance whilst Compton averaged 31.

[VTR]

I think Bairstow's average is dragged down a bit by being thrown in whilst drinks waitering on a couple of tours - admittedly it would not be great without those, but he has played some decent innings in home Tests

So I think the selectors are hoping that a) He has a better chance of doing well if being brought in on the back of actually playing cricket b) he is still young and improving

Compton was unlucky I think as the selectors thought there were better options, but sadly all the other openers since have just highlighted that Compton was in fact the best of the Strauss replacements so far

[liverbnz]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

So are you claiming he was axed before his time? And as for Lyth I have not made any savaging remarks regarding his remaining in the side. It is too soon to axe him on two fronts. 1. He hasn't been given long enough to prove himself. 2. As openers go in CC he has the best record out there so who do you replace him with?

No I'm not claiming that, I was merely pointing out that he lasted 3 Tests on his comeback. IMO, he shouldn't have been brought back and LYth should have been given that time but then Peter Moores was in charge so what did we expect.

I know you never made any comments about Lyth, VTR did. I never made that clear so apologies for that. Although I certainly never said anything about 'savage' comments!

Re Lyth's spot. He doesn't really have a technical weakness as such, although he's not the most technically gifted. He just plays at balls he shouldn't. So does Alistair Cook. He'd done a lot of work in recent years to improve his temperament at the crease, successfully so. It's crept in again in his early Tests, maybe due to nerves or perhaps he hasn't got the required temperament at this level? But, if England want to continue with this positive brand of cricket they should persist with him throughout the summer at least and reassess then. Neither Hales or Compton are pulling up trees this year and the latter's brand of cricket is 15 years past it's sell by date.

[CaledonianCraig]

Dress it up however you like, but if you are going to make a case for someone to be dropped after a few months by skewing your language and therefore the facts, it kinda dilutes the case don't ye think?

So are you claiming he was axed before his time? And as for Lyth I have not made any savaging remarks regarding his remaining in the side. It is too soon to axe him on two fronts. 1. He hasn't been given long enough to prove himself. 2. As openers go in CC he has the best record out there so who do you replace him with?

No I'm not claiming that, I was merely pointing out that he lasted 3 Tests on his comeback. IMO, he shouldn't have been brought back and LYth should have been given that time but then Peter Moores was in charge so what did we expect.

I know you never made any comments about Lyth, VTR did. I never made that clear so apologies for that. Although I certainly never said anything about 'savage' comments!

Re Lyth's spot. He doesn't really have a technical weakness as such, although he's not the most technically gifted. He just plays at balls he shouldn't. So does Alistair Cook. He'd done a lot of work in recent years to improve his temperament at the crease, successfully so. It's crept in again in his early Tests, maybe due to nerves or perhaps he hasn't got the required temperament at this level? But, if England want to continue with this positive brand of cricket they should persist with him throughout the summer at least and reassess then. Neither Hales or Compton are pulling up trees this year and the latter's brand of cricket is 15 years past it's sell by date.

Fair enough.

I think Lyth's deficiencies may be papered over until he learns the trade of Test cricket but only if those just below him in the batting order perform. England's habit of being 30 for 3 for most of this year is unacceptable so automatically it will ramp the pressure up on those responsible for the collapse with little regard for experience (or lack of).

[KP_fan]

Gary Ballance....3 really bad games in the last 4 ( in red)

And what's important is ONLY ONE BAD SERIES (2 test series vs NZ).......
Is that enough to override the 10+ good tests and 3 good series he had had before.

and even in the first test of this series...he had a defining partnership with his 61 runs score.

Give the track record of consistency....the selectors owed him this full series, given that he is young also.


Innings by innings list
Runs Mins BF 4s 6s SR Pos Dismissal Inns Opposition Ground Start DateAscending
18 93 51 2 0 35.29 6 caught 2 v Australia Sydney 3 Jan 2014 Test # 2113
7 35 27 1 0 25.92 5 lbw 4 v Australia Sydney 3 Jan 2014 Test # 2113
23 73 40 4 0 57.50 3 caught 1 v Sri Lanka Lord's 12 Jun 2014 Test # 2124
104* 252 188 12 1 55.31 3 not out 3 v Sri Lanka Lord's 12 Jun 2014 Test # 2124
74 209 157 8 0 47.13 3 caught 2 v Sri Lanka Leeds 20 Jun 2014 Test # 2126
0 1 1 0 0 0.00 3 lbw 4 v Sri Lanka Leeds 20 Jun 2014 Test # 2126
71 211 167 9 0 42.51 3 lbw 2 v India Nottingham 9 Jul 2014 Test # 2128
110 297 203 15 0 54.18 3 caught 2 v India Lord's 17 Jul 2014 Test # 2130
27 81 59 2 0 45.76 3 caught 4 v India Lord's 17 Jul 2014 Test # 2130
156 384 288 24 0 54.16 3 caught 1 v India Southampton 27 Jul 2014 Test # 2132
38 58 48 5 1 79.16 3 caught 3 v India Southampton 27 Jul 2014 Test # 2132
37 118 87 6 0 42.52 3 lbw 2 v India Manchester 7 Aug 2014 Test # 2134
64 181 117 13 0 54.70 3 caught 2 v India The Oval 15 Aug 2014 Test # 2137
10 77 46 0 0 21.73 3 caught 1 v West Indies North Sound 13 Apr 2015 Test # 2157
122 310 250 11 2 48.80 3 caught 3 v West Indies North Sound 13 Apr 2015 Test # 2157
77 240 188 8 1 40.95 3 bowled 2 v West Indies St George's 21 Apr 2015 Test # 2158
81* 148 126 8 2 64.28 3 not out 4 v West Indies St George's 21 Apr 2015 Test # 2158
18 70 46 1 1 39.13 3 bowled 1 v West Indies Bridgetown 1 May 2015 Test # 2160
23 107 75 3 0 30.66 3 caught 3 v West Indies Bridgetown 1 May 2015 Test # 2160
1 12 9 0 0 11.11 3 caught 1 v New Zealand Lord's 21 May 2015 Test # 2162
0 22 12 0 0 0.00 3 bowled 3 v New Zealand Lord's 21 May 2015 Test # 2162
29 88 67 6 0 43.28 3 bowled 2 v New Zealand Leeds 29 May 2015 Test # 2163
6 27 26 1 0 23.07 3 bowled 4 v New Zealand Leeds 29 May 2015 Test # 2163
61 223 149 8 0 40.93 3 lbw 1 v Australia Cardiff 8 Jul 2015 Test # 2170
0 14 7 0 0 0.00 3 caught 3 v Australia Cardiff 8 Jul 2015 Test # 2170
23 36 31 4 0 74.19 3 bowled 2 v Australia Lord's 16 Jul 2015 Test # 2171
14 57 33 2 0 42.42 3 caught 4 v Australia Lord's 16 Jul 2015 Test # 2171

[CaledonianCraig]

Gary Ballance....3 really bad games in the last 4 ( in red)

And what's important is  ONLY ONE BAD SERIES (2 test series vs NZ).......
Is that enough to override the 10+ good tests and 3 good series he had had before.

and even in the first test of this series...he had a defining partnership with his 61 runs score.

Give the track record of consistency....the selectors owed him this full series, given that he is young also.


Innings by innings list
Runs Mins BF 4s 6s SR Pos Dismissal Inns Opposition Ground Start DateAscending
18 93 51 2 0 35.29 6 caught 2 v Australia Sydney 3 Jan 2014 Test # 2113
7 35 27 1 0 25.92 5 lbw 4 v Australia Sydney 3 Jan 2014 Test # 2113
23 73 40 4 0 57.50 3 caught 1 v Sri Lanka Lord's 12 Jun 2014 Test # 2124
104* 252 188 12 1 55.31 3 not out 3 v Sri Lanka Lord's 12 Jun 2014 Test # 2124
74 209 157 8 0 47.13 3 caught 2 v Sri Lanka Leeds 20 Jun 2014 Test # 2126
0 1 1 0 0 0.00 3 lbw 4 v Sri Lanka Leeds 20 Jun 2014 Test # 2126
71 211 167 9 0 42.51 3 lbw 2 v India Nottingham 9 Jul 2014 Test # 2128
110 297 203 15 0 54.18 3 caught 2 v India Lord's 17 Jul 2014 Test # 2130
27 81 59 2 0 45.76 3 caught 4 v India Lord's 17 Jul 2014 Test # 2130
156 384 288 24 0 54.16 3 caught 1 v India Southampton 27 Jul 2014 Test # 2132
38 58 48 5 1 79.16 3 caught 3 v India Southampton 27 Jul 2014 Test # 2132
37 118 87 6 0 42.52 3 lbw 2 v India Manchester 7 Aug 2014 Test # 2134
64 181 117 13 0 54.70 3 caught 2 v India The Oval 15 Aug 2014 Test # 2137
10 77 46 0 0 21.73 3 caught 1 v West Indies North Sound 13 Apr 2015 Test # 2157
122 310 250 11 2 48.80 3 caught 3 v West Indies North Sound 13 Apr 2015 Test # 2157
77 240 188 8 1 40.95 3 bowled 2 v West Indies St George's 21 Apr 2015 Test # 2158
81* 148 126 8 2 64.28 3 not out 4 v West Indies St George's 21 Apr 2015 Test # 2158
18 70 46 1 1 39.13 3 bowled 1 v West Indies Bridgetown 1 May 2015 Test # 2160
23 107 75 3 0 30.66 3 caught 3 v West Indies Bridgetown 1 May 2015 Test # 2160
1 12 9 0 0 11.11 3 caught 1 v New Zealand Lord's 21 May 2015 Test # 2162
0 22 12 0 0 0.00 3 bowled 3 v New Zealand Lord's 21 May 2015 Test # 2162
29 88 67 6 0 43.28 3 bowled 2 v New Zealand Leeds 29 May 2015 Test # 2163
6 27 26 1 0 23.07 3 bowled 4 v New Zealand Leeds 29 May 2015 Test # 2163
61 223 149 8 0 40.93 3 lbw 1 v Australia Cardiff 8 Jul 2015 Test # 2170
0 14 7 0 0 0.00 3 caught 3 v Australia Cardiff 8 Jul 2015 Test # 2170
23 36 31 4 0 74.19 3 bowled 2 v Australia Lord's 16 Jul 2015 Test # 2171
14 57 33 2 0 42.42 3 caught 4 v Australia Lord's 16 Jul 2015 Test # 2171

I can agree with that KP_Fan. Changes needed made to the batting line-up - that much is evident and those under the spotlight were Ballance (found to have problems with pitched up bowling - a flaw that cannot be fixed en-route through the Ashes), Lyth (a batsman who loves too much to feel bat on ball so goes chasing wide deliveries far too soon) and Bell (forgotten his strengths. Looks at his best coming forward but of late has been pinned in his crease).

[Jetty]

I would like Compton as well. He would certainly tire out the bowlers while playing himself in. I think that Bayliss wants more ODI type players in the team, more aggressive batsmen. We now have Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler and Ali who like to get on with it. I can't see Taylor getting in the Test team. If Lyth doesn't get any runs that Hales will be next in. I wonder if it will all end in tears.

Faf du Plessis on debut, 376 balls faced to draw the match against Australia. Strike rate 29.25. The whole of our team faced 37 overs.

[Pal Joey]

Well, Lord's has traditionally favoured the Australian style of play, Jetty. However, it's very different to how Adelaide... was, of course. 

We have had a pretty high success rate there... save for the last few series.

It was good to see our bowlers extracting something out of that pitch. They had to work hard; and what impressed me was the almost pinpoint accuracy at times and control with the ball. Good to see the wickets shared around between the bowlers. They all chipped in and they all got their rewards. Batting looks strong too.

Question is: can they maintain that intensity? That last match would be hard to improve on.

[Gooseberry]

I would like Compton as well. He would certainly tire out the bowlers while playing himself in. I think that Bayliss wants more ODI type players in the team, more aggressive batsmen. We now have Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler and Ali who like to get on with it. I can't see Taylor getting in the Test team. If Lyth doesn't get any runs that Hales will be next in. I wonder if it will all end in tears.

Faf du Plessis on debut, 376 balls faced to draw the match against Australia. Strike rate 29.25. The whole of our team faced 37 overs.  

Couple of points.
Bayliss has had very loittle say in slection so far, largely because his knowledge of the english game and polayers is pretty limited.
His comments after this test suggest the opposite to what you say, hes blamed the county pitches (and you could add to this the pressure to not have drawn games) for encouraging batsmen to chase deliveries and score quickly. The amount of movement they give means that sooner or later a ball will have your name on it, and we see part time medium pacers being very effective. The same bowlers on a much truer test wicket are pretty useless, and the batting exposed by straight fast bowling. Even on a "slow" pitch the Aussies were reguallry able to put down balls over 90mph and get some movement. Guys like Lyth simply nver face that on a sustained basis, he has some learning to do.
Compton was slated for being part of a pretty turgid England top order, alongside Cook and Trott (both out of form for much of the time hes there). Added to that the pressure form the media and fans to be more positive came from a slipover from what was going on with the limited over sides...England were seen as dull and unagressive in those (culminating int he world cup).
It does seem we've shifted too far the other way for sure...but then Cook, Lyth, Ballance is hardly an agressive "bat on ball" top 3 ...certainly not in the relams of Warner, Rogers, Smith. Like a lot of things it seems to be the media (Shane Warne) that was saying England had to and are blooking to be more agressive as a test batting unit rather than the team or coach. Say something enough and it becomes true ( ditto the pitches, although even Dobell has massively climbed down on that and now says England were unhappy with them and wanted faster skiddy wickets)

Maybe its a confidence thing. They certainly havent played to their abilities or made sensible decisions... and that very much includes Bell as well.

Other point is that Comptoms exile was ultimately down to a misundersatnding over an injury which led to a fall out with the selectors who had accused him of ducking a game. Its been kept remarkebly quiet, possibly because he doesnt have KPs ego/publicist or Warne doing his fighting for him.


On the wider issues I persoanlly feel Ballance has been very unlucky to be dropped ahead of Bell, but I guess they felt stuck in a logic loop about needing to change the top 3 but not wanting to risk Root there again. One of Lyth or Bell (hopefully both) needs to sort their stuff out pretty sharpish and start backing Cook (whos hardly been great) up a bit more.


Another thing that seems to have slipped under the radar comepletely is that Bayliss mentioned he might want to play two spinners in the next test. No suggestion he will drop Ali, but that Rashid has a chance to play. All the talk has been about Bairstow and the top order but who would he come in for, Stokes (whos scored runs but been useless with the ball for most tests this year) or Wood (the only english bowler with pace)? The real wildcard would be resting Jimmy. I suspect this wont happen though and we will see the same attack.


Meanwhile in pointless midweek world the other Marsh and Warner got centuries against a county second XI. Watson got a few, and Haddin 30 as well ...but youd think both would have a lot more to do to get places in the side back. Rogers is still dizzy and could end up missing the 3rd test, Marsh the obvious player to step in following a century against some terryfingly medium paced teenage bowlers.

[LondonTiger]

Yeah, saw that Bayliss had suggested they may go two spinners. I had assumed that would mean Rashid replacing Ballance and Ali moving up the order. However since read that Ali looked shaky to the short ball in last test (was unable to watch) so that probably kiboshes that suggestion.

[alfie]

Not sure Bayliss was suggesting playing two spinners next week ? More that it was an option they might take at some stage (Oval ?)

Sensible to keep options open anyway ; but I'd be surprised.

[Gooseberry]

This is the quote:

When Rash turned up, he had problems with a finger. He couldn't spin it hard. But Moeen Ali was fine. I would think we would probably take two spinners to Edgbaston. I would like to play two spinners somewhere and he is currently thought of as one of the top two spinners in the country."

[alfie]

This is the quote:

When Rash turned up, he had problems with a finger. He couldn't spin it hard. But Moeen Ali was fine. I would think we would probably take two spinners to Edgbaston. I would like to play two spinners somewhere and he is currently thought of as one of the top two spinners in the country."

Thanks. Still ambiguous though , isn't it ? Big difference between taking them in a squad and playing them in the XI.
Does suggest they might let the extra seamer (Finn) go and take Rashid in a twelve before looking at the pitch on the morning.
Can't say I like the idea of a pitch on which England prefer to rely on two spinners and Stokes to back up the main two quicks. Could get very ugly if they lose the toss again. Because the Aussies aren't going to pick Ahmed and drop one of their pace men

I reckon Bayliss is just keeping Rashid in the inner circle. Expecting the same attack.

[msp83]

England aren't playing 2 spinners for any of the tests this series, just a bluff, and a rather comical one at that!

[msp83]

LD, do you think Marsh's runs against county attacks (admittedly rather pedestrian) would have any impact on Voges' position in the side? Voges hasn't had a big score as yet in the series....... I hope they would persist with him, looked real test class in the West Indies and despite his lack of test experience, he nevertheless is a very experienced cricketer....... Looks more solid and seems to have a good temperament.

[guildfordbat]

Hi msp - the impression I've gained is that for the third Test Marsh will come in for the rested Rogers, thus safeguarding Voges' place in the short term.

[LondonTiger]

Some reports suggesting Rogers may be retiring early, in the next week. The noises coming from the Australia camp about what was the cause of his dizziness and headaches have been a little vague and at times contradictory. As a rugby follower we have become much more versed in the ways of concussion and this does look like that.

Whatever the issue lets hope his long term health is put ahead of a game.

[kingraf]

With regards to Rogers, damage to the vestibular in the inner cochlear sure beats a concussion, but seems to be taking forever to clear. Wonder if Watson gets another chance if he doesn't play in Edgebaston? You'd think not, but Marsh hasn't really impressed in his test career. Watson seems to have more lives than a cat, so...

[Gooseberry]

Yeah if Rogers is out both Marshes will surely play. Its a hard road back for Watto, although he has had a solid game so far this week.
Lets face it the Aussies are the last who require to be told of the dangers of taking a hit, if theres any question i cant imagine he will take the risk.
If Rogers does get the all clear then pressure will come on Voges from SE if, cant see that change yet though

[Pal Joey]

LD, do you think Marsh's runs against county attacks (admittedly rather pedestrian) would have any impact on Voges' position in the side? Voges hasn't had a big score as yet in the series....... I hope they would persist with him, looked real test class in the West Indies and despite his lack of test experience, he nevertheless is a very experienced cricketer....... Looks more solid and seems to have a good temperament.

I hope they do persist with Voges, msp. I'd like to see him score some more runs too. I don't think his place is under severe threat (just yet) even with Sean Marsh taking advantage of those relatively pedestrian county attacks. However if he struggles again at Edgbaston and the team doesn't fare so well... then maybe people will start to ask the question. As noted above, if Rogers is unavailable for this next test then S Marsh will slot in to the side.

[king_carlos]

I can't see England playing two spinners in this series simply because the balance of the side would be shot.

We can't realistically leave out Wood as Stokes isn't bowling well enough to be part of a 3 man seam attack with 2 spinners.

We can't realistically bump Moeen up the order as he isn't batting well enough to bat in the top 6. Plus his weakness against the short ball makes him bait for the Aussie attack.

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