England vs Australia 4th Test, Trent Bridge

First topic message reminder :

As The Ashes thread has gone on a tangent arguing over who is SA's best fast bowler, let's get back on topic with a match thread.

Conditions for the 5 days look generally dry so there will be an almost certain result for either team. Also looking cloudy for large periods, so the loss of Anderson might be huge for England

England: Cook, Lyth, Bell, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Broad, Wood, Finn

Australia: Rogers, Warner, Smith, S Marsh, Clarke, Voges, Nevill, Johnson, Starc, Hazlewood, Lyon

Root needs 22 more runs today to reach 1000 runs this year in tests

England made a 100 run chase look routine last week, so we can assume Aus will need at least 200 to worry England. At present, that requires England to lose all their 1st innings wickets now and for Australia to make 400.

Unfortunately for Australia, England aren't declaring this morning and their batsmen struggled to 40, let alone 400. This game is over, its a matter of when

Yep the game as a contest is over, we'll win - just whether the Aussie bats put up some resistance or not will decide by how many

If you count this Test, there's six test left in the year for England. If little joe can turn this into a daddy hundred, he's got an outside chance at Yousuf's calendar year record. Certainly a shot at the English record whatever it may be

Vaughan scored 1481 runs in 2002 in 14 matches. Root has a great chance of beating that.

PaulHv2 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not sure how Clarke survives this humiliation...Last game was embarrassing  enough.

Can't blame Clarke for 9 other batsman failing, or his bowlers decided they'd like to bowl at standards lower than what most of us play every weekend.

That said, I think this will be his last series anyway.

You could portiuon some of the blame to him for the behind the sxcenes fall out of Haddin, his own p1ss poor form and inability to lead from the front, and them picking SMarsh to help hide him down the order.
And possibly the decision in this test and the last one to hold Johnson back.
And Maxwell not making the squad.

Whilst there has to be collective responsibility in the absence of KP from their side someone has to cop the blame, and frankly hes been trading on reputation for some time now. Maybe its old injury problems hampering him but if hes not going to get over that he needs to go.

That of course causes a big problem for Aus who have already signalled the end of Watson and Haddin, and lost their senior bowler. Voges and SMarsh are old hands but not justifying places in the side. Batting wise its hard to see how they can fill 5 spots with guys who actually merit selection, let alone 6.

In the absence of KP_Fan...

Stuart Broad: Home conditions bully.

11 of his 14 5 fors have come in home tests, and both ( good chance of making this 3 ) 10 fors at home.

In England he now averages 25, in Asia he averages 43 ( Anderson, whos more commonly known as "relyting on English conditions for swing" averages 27 at home and 34 away)

Home tests he takes 4.26 wickets per match, away just 2.97




Home track bully, 8-15 doesnt count. Aus the moral victors. KP wouldve had a double century by now coming in at 4. They are going to get smashed in the UAE (*please noone point out that Broad averages 20 there)

Gooseberry wrote:

PaulHv2 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not sure how Clarke survives this humiliation...Last game was embarrassing  enough.

Can't blame Clarke for 9 other batsman failing, or his bowlers decided they'd like to bowl at standards lower than what most of us play every weekend.

That said, I think this will be his last series anyway.

You could portiuon some of the blame to him for the behind the sxcenes fall out of Haddin, his own p1ss poor form and inability to lead from the front, and them picking SMarsh to help hide him down the order.
And possibly the decision in this test and the last one to hold Johnson back.
And Maxwell not making the squad.

Whilst there has to be collective responsibility in the absence of KP from their side someone has to cop the blame, and frankly hes been trading on reputation for some time now. Maybe its old injury problems hampering him but if hes not going to get over that he needs to go.

That of course causes a big problem for Aus who have already signalled the end of Watson and Haddin, and lost their senior bowler. Voges and SMarsh are old hands but not justifying places in the side. Batting wise its hard to see how they can fill 5 spots with guys who actually merit selection, let alone 6.

I'd say on the selection front you may be barking up the wrong tree. Team selection is more the job of the selectors when it comes to Australia. Relations between them and Clarke are now very strained according to those in the sport as Clarke wasn't happy with how Haddin was handled and also wanted an extra bowler for this test but the selectors went against his wishes and didn't tell the players the team until an hour before the match started yesterday.

Must've been a busy day on the burger van for swamy, sorry KPF

GSC wrote:Must've been a busy day on the burger van for swamy, sorry KPF

He is only ever on here when England do badly, and will re-post any prediction that becomes remotely correct about a thousand times if it ever happens (a stopped clock comes to mind). It doesn't matter though, we are all now armed with the most hilarious post ever to appear on these forums!

Anyway, back to the actual cricket, it would nice to see a 400 run lead come up fairly quickly, with Buttler making a few badly need runs.

I think the Aussies will fight in the second innings, and a couple of players will get in, but they are already in an almost impossible position

Its always easy in hindsight, but dropping Marsh the all rounder for Marsh the batsman really was a very odd move. Especially when David Warner was sending down medium pace with England 200 ahead for the loss of 3 wickets. Hoping that Voges knowledge of TB would aid him (though in fairness, 9/10 times that shot goes for 4, and the other its deflected for 3)

VTR wrote:

GSC wrote:Must've been a busy day on the burger van for swamy, sorry KPF

He is only ever on here when England do badly, and will re-post any prediction that becomes remotely correct about a thousand times if it ever happens (a stopped clock comes to mind). It doesn't matter though, we are all now armed with the most hilarious post ever to appear on these forums!

People like KP_Fan and Gerry_SA have different opinions - sure I think everyone can handle that. Opinions help the forum survive but you know what their opinion is based on when they cannot hold their hands up and admit they are wrong and admit it even when they vociferously claim otherwise. I was wrong about Ali and Bell and held my hands up and admitted it publicly on the forum - no big deal there. Try it some time guys eh.

Its hard to see a scenario where Lyth is in the team at the Oval. He looks far too nervous outside off to play at test level, test bowlers will keep putting it in that area until he nicks off.

Dont think you go back to Compton, is Hales a bad shout for a dead rubber test?

GSC wrote:Its always easy in hindsight, but dropping Marsh the all rounder for Marsh the batsman really was a very odd move. Especially when David Warner was sending down medium pace with England 200 ahead for the loss of 3 wickets. Hoping that Voges knowledge of TB would aid him (though in fairness, 9/10 times that shot goes for 4, and the other its deflected for 3)

Yes that was mighty weird. I can only think they stuck with Vogues because of his Trent Bridge experience and record but wanted Shaun Marsh in so much that they sacrificed Mitch Marsh. Crazy thing is that they knew Jimmy Anderson was out and everyone was saying how much that weakened the England attack so why did they feel the need to strengthen the batting in those circumstances? To win a test you need invariably to take 20 wickets so why make that more difficult by taking a bowler out of the side? For me the more sensible switch would have been to drop Vogues and bring in Peter Siddle or Shane Watson.

Gritty stuff from pup, still talking of a comeback and victory here. It's never over til it's over with these Aussies.

GSC wrote:Its hard to see a scenario where Lyth is in the team at the Oval. He looks far too nervous outside off to play at test level, test bowlers will keep putting it in that area until he nicks off.

Dont think you go back to Compton, is Hales a bad shout for a dead rubber test?

If England regain the Ashes here (as looks a nailed on certainty now) I cannot see the selectors axing anyone from this team. The euphoria will wash over any failings and heat taken off the selectors massively. They'll give Lyth the nod for The Oval and will deliberate his future after the series if he flops again I reckon.

Agnew summed it up for me I think, they knew they cant play the moving ball so wanted to pack the side with batters for a better chance of someone coming off.

Unfortunately that left them with 3 seamers that like to operate in short spells and a spinner that would get no help from a day 1 pitch.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Gritty stuff from pup, still talking of a comeback and victory here.  It's never over til it's over with these Aussies.

We heard that talk from the Aussies at Edgbaston. I wonder what happened there?

well indeed. He has to say it though doesn't he. No Aussie captain will get away with suggesting the game could be gone already.

Having read the Sydney Morning Herald live text yesterday, I think the rest of the country is already at that conclusion

trebellbobaggins wrote:well indeed.  He has to say it though doesn't he.  No Aussie captain will get away with suggesting the game could be gone already.

Precisely and is why those are empty words and not spoken from the heart and soul.

GSC wrote:Its hard to see a scenario where Lyth is in the team at the Oval. He looks far too nervous outside off to play at test level, test bowlers will keep putting it in that area until he nicks off.

Dont think you go back to Compton, is Hales a bad shout for a dead rubber test?

I could see a few changes, possibly with Lyth being replaced, and maybe giving the likes of Rashid and Footitt a run. Its not very often there is a dead Test match to try new players out. You could say it worked The Oval last time, imagine if Kerrigan had debuted in a game that mattered!

If anyone hasn't seen Channel Five's highlights yet, I highly recommend you do, if only to hear Boycott's brilliant commentary on the first five wickets.

http://www.channel5.com/shows/cricket-on-5/episodes/eng-vs-aus-4th-investec-trent-br-day-1

Joe Root is the best thing to happen to cricket in years. What a delightful young man and classy player. He exudes joy and the whole atmosphere of the game is better off for it.

VTR wrote:

GSC wrote:Its hard to see a scenario where Lyth is in the team at the Oval. He looks far too nervous outside off to play at test level, test bowlers will keep putting it in that area until he nicks off.

Dont think you go back to Compton, is Hales a bad shout for a dead rubber test?

I could see a few changes, possibly with Lyth being replaced, and maybe giving the likes of Rashid and Footitt a run. Its not very often there is a dead Test match to try new players out. You could say it worked The Oval last time, imagine if Kerrigan had debuted in a game that mattered!

In other sports then yes maybe. However, the English cricket selectors do NOT I repeat NOT make changes unless an absolute last resort and this is not the case here. If they felt obliged to give Lyth another chance here and the side wraps up the Ashes then why to high heaven would they then axe him on winning the Ashes? It makes more sense to give him the whole series and if he flops again at The Oval then they get no backlash, give him every chance to prove himself and everyone is happy (well apart from the majority of the supporters).

That is not to say I am a firm believer that Lyth is the man for the job of course but more me sure of how the selectors will go.

watching now, cheers doody.

The only issues left in this game, I feel, are:

1) Can England win by an innings? I predicted such a victory pre-series, so it would be nice to land correctly.

2) Can Root best Brian Lara's 400? It's an outsider, but it might be worth keeping an eye on. He's 276 away. If he gets his eye in for the fifteen overs before the new ball; if he doesn't run out of batting partners; if Australia are as miserable and pathetic in the field as I expect them to be.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Joe Root is the best thing to happen to cricket in years. What a delightful young man and classy player. He exudes joy and the whole atmosphere of the game is better off for it.

Our first superstar since Botham (not including KP because he is a c***).

Botham did an analysis of where he was playing the ball compared to Aussies. He was playing it 6 inches further back. Real quality

We will see Craig, there is merit in both arguments i.e. give a replacement a Test to get used to playing. What we really need is KP_Fan to predict what will happen to Lyth, then we can assume the opposite is correct!

Man that is funny from Boycott. He is mocking their technique against movement big time.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Man that is funny from Boycott. He is mocking their technique against movement big time.

He was literally laughing at them wasn't he? Absolutely priceless stuff

Not sure Root can do that just yet, he's up against some quality bowling. Lets see if he survives the start. And I think it could be a close game still.

I have a sneaky feeling that if / when we win this test Sir Bell of Bellington might decide that regaining the ashes is the perfect high on which to bow out.

VTR wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:Man that is funny from Boycott. He is mocking their technique against movement big time.

He was literally laughing at them wasn't he? Absolutely priceless stuff

yup and having seen rather than heard it now.. I can see why!

trebellbobaggins wrote:Not sure Root can do that just yet, he's up against some quality bowling.  Lets see if he survives the start. And I think it could be a close game still.

Tight as in 300 runs?

well Aussie might yet get 400 and set eng a chase. For too many years I've seen them fight back to think they cannot.

LivinginItaly wrote:I have a sneaky feeling that if / when we win this test Sir Bell of Bellington  might decide that regaining the ashes is the perfect high on which to bow out.

That is a very good shout indeed.

I think he will sit back and think what more can he achieve? Also his recent form has been iffy to say the least so pressure must have been great on him to stay in the team. He may sit back and think now is the time to go. Very good call that and I could certainly see it happening.

trebellbobaggins wrote:well Aussie might yet get 400 and set eng a chase.  For too many years I've seen them fight back to think they cannot.

But was that in the same test as they have been bowled out for 60 in less than 20 overs?

I will answer that as ....no definitely not. Their minds and souls are in a place not suitable to post a score of 400 in the second innings.

seanmichaels wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Joe Root is the best thing to happen to cricket in years. What a delightful young man and classy player. He exudes joy and the whole atmosphere of the game is better off for it.

Our first superstar since Botham (not including KP because he is a c***).

Botham did an analysis of where he was playing the ball compared to Aussies. He was playing it 6 inches further back. Real quality

Not sure which of them I heard it from on Sky, probably was Botham, saying that its very much to do with the difference in pitches here to Australia. So technique they grow up with demands going more forward at the ball. I cant say if thats true or not because I know relatively nothing about cricket, I merely sit and enjoy it. My missus is back home in Australia currently, and I keep passing on my best wishes to her father. She's also getting me one of their kookaburra balls as im intrigued to see if I can note any differences. Really gutted I didnt go out there with her now, I would have had so much fun!

Rewatching those highlights...Michael Clarke looks in a terrible mess. And we've all seen that in a cricketer before. Its not a bad form kind of mess, its that one where suddenly they just arent picking things up the same way. He needs to go play some more leisurely cricket and retire from the big time, enjoy the game for a while instead.

I suspect Cook will step down as captain also.

I had a sneaking suspicion Jimmy may have retired also

Jimmy's got more to do. Hes still the best bowler, don't walk away when you're still THE guy.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Not sure which of them I heard it from on Sky, probably was Botham, saying that its very much to do with the difference in pitches here to Australia. So technique they grow up with demands going more forward at the ball. I cant say if thats true or not because I know relatively nothing about cricket, I merely sit and enjoy it. My missus is back home in Australia currently, and I keep passing on my best wishes to her father. She's also getting me one of their kookaburra balls as im intrigued to see if I can note any differences. Really gutted I didnt go out there with her now, I would have had so much fun!

I think it is more of a bad habit they have developed by playing too much limited overs cricket on pitches that favour batting (for the format).

We can analyse pitches and balls and attitudes and T20 all we like. The former 2 have always been the same In England - it didn't stop the Aussies humiliating England for large swathes of time. For the latter 2, what happened when ODi cricket appeared in the 70s? Did that have an effect on Test cricket? I don't know but I'd say probably. Thing is, you need to adapt. Australia have not.

End story is that you should never be bowled out in 18.3 overs in Test cricket - or any form of the game for that matter. Aus cleaned the slate straight after the 2010 Ashes walloping and they'll likely do the same here. Clarke, Lehmann and whoever else will be unemployed by October.

There's also going out on top. It doesn't get much better than winning an ashes series, and he wont be part of any WC win. I don't think he will retire but there's a nagging doubt

I can't see Cook stepping down, nor Anderson calling it a day just yet.

As for Clarke. He's in poor form, and past his best. He's scored runs all over the place, so no point blaming ODI cricket, and/or their pitches.

SA is a big tour. I'd hope that Cook skippers that then stands down. Bell I'm not too fussed about either way.

* Stands down as skipper but continues till the end of the English summer as a batsmen only