England Squad Announcement - 27/08/2014

England 2015 Rugby World Cup squad

Props:
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)

Hookers:
Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)

Second rows:
George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)

Back rows:
James Haskell (Wasps, 60 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)
Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)

Scrum halves:
Danny Care (Harlequins, 52 caps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

Fly halves:
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)

Centres:
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)

Back three:
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)

Prepare to be unsurprised!

What would be considered big surprises for you guys? Do you expect any really big omissions from final squad?

Apparently most pundits don't think Cipriani or Slade will make the squad.

bedfordwelsh wrote:What would be considered big surprises for you guys?  Do you expect any really big omissions from final squad?

Nah, I think it will be pretty predictable - I really can't imagine any big omissions at all. Be great if Steffan Armitage got a call up out of the blue though!!

That would probably mean Burgess and Goode are in.

Can understand Burgess, just; but Cips has showed in two brief cameos why he should be in. Goode had a good game against France but he lacks the magic of Cipriani. With three wingers in the squad who can cover fullback, a 10/15 with pace and vision is a better bet.

maestegmafia wrote:Apparently most pundits don't think Cipriani or Slade will make the squad.

Why?????????

An overrated show boater that does all the flashy things due to having two hard working colleagues that cover for him. A penalty machine that gives away more penalties than he achieves in turnovers and a player that turned his back on England for the money. He had his chance to come back and be considered, he chose the Euros, I hope he enjoys them, but I do not want him anywhere near an England squad. What would that say to all the players that have turned down the money to play for their country.

Well-Past-It.

I think that is a bit unfair on Cipriani. He got shafted by the England coaches not because of his playing talent, but because he was dating some supper model. So why should he stick around if he is not selected.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Apparently most pundits don't think Cipriani or Slade will make the squad.

Why?????????

An overrated show boater that does all the flashy things due to having two hard working colleagues that cover for him. A penalty machine that gives away more penalties than he achieves in turnovers and a player that turned his back on England for the money. He had his chance to come back and be considered, he chose the Euros, I hope he enjoys them, but I do not want him anywhere near an England squad. What would that say to all the players that have turned down the money to play for their country.

I'm guessing that was perhaps meant for me Well-past-it?? Don't worry I'm being daft! (On holiday and enjoying a couple of glasses of local wine) You've got to admit though it would count as a BIG surprise (in answer to Bedford's question) and it would help shrug off Lancaster's slow but steady reputation!

Your points are well made and I'm unable to find any decent counter argument!!

I think well-past-it meant to quote stub's Armitage comment and pressed the wrong button.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

An overrated show boater that does all the flashy things due to having two hard working colleagues that cover for him. A penalty machine that gives away more penalties than he achieves in turnovers and a player that turned his back on England for the money. He had his chance to come back and be considered, he chose the Euros, I hope he enjoys them, but I do not want him anywhere near an England squad. What would that say to all the players that have turned down the money to play for their country.

Fair points all, but Jonny has retired now.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well-Past-It.

I think that is a bit unfair on Cipriani. He got shafted by the England coaches not because of his playing talent, but because he was dating some supper model. So why should he stick around if he is not selected.

Thats not remotely true. He was scuppered by his injury, and dropped on performances, then refused to go on the Saxons tour.

Regardless though hes very much a changed character now, you can tell that by the way he got busted for drink driving. And its not like Lacaster was ought in on a ticket of not tolerating any silliness or anything.

He is the best attacking player they have, aside from the ones who are better, though

majesticimperialman wrote:Well-Past-It.

I think that is a bit unfair on Cipriani. He got shafted by the England coaches not because of his playing talent, but because he was dating some supper model. So why should he stick around if he is not selected.

Thats rubbish. He always had a hell of a lot of talent but also showed a lot of signs of being a 'richard' head, and of course had an injury that in other times might have finished his career for good. Neither of those things are anything to do with England and its coaches.

The good news is that finally he seems to have sorted his head out. Unluckily for him there is a lot more competition than there was when he first appeared on the scene

[Edit - should read rest of posts before leaping in]

Pundits don't know anything, loads of articles were written about rokodunguni making the first cut and he didn't. I doubt lancs even knows what he's going to do at centre same story since 2003 !!

Telegraph reckon Slade is in and its between Burrell and Burgess

I suspect the following are all in:

Marler, Mako, Cole, Wilson, Youngs, Webber, George, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Wood, Haskell, Robshaw, BillyV, Morgan, Youngs, Wiggy, Care, Ford, Farrell, Barritt, Joseph, Nowell, May, Watson, Goode & Brown.

any of these missing would be a shock to me at least. that then leaves 4 places:

5th Prop - if fit Brookes seems to have moved ahead of Corbs.
Back 5 forward - Probably Kruis v Attwood, but Easter maybe considered if Morgan is deemed a potential injury issue.

2 players to cover centre and or utility - Lord knows what Lancaster will do. He loves Burgess but I hope he goes Slade and Burrell.

I do wonder about the non appearance of Barritt so far. Burrell vs Burgess is difficult as I think the things that they want Burrell to do Burgess does better at the moment, although overall his game is obviously more limited

LT

Largely agree with you - one option we've discussed on other threads is whether Cipriani could make it in at the expense of one of the outside backs (probably Goode), with the idea of him playing as an impact sub / 2nd playmaker as he did against France. The question is whether you could realistically go into the tournament with only 4 specialist back 3 players - could get stretched very thin if Brown gets injured: Watson to FB and JJ as the next wing cover?

As with others, I am suspicious about the non-appearance of Barritt, and wouldn't be surprised to learn that he was struggling for fitness / sharpness. Would open up another spot, so we could have all of Burrell, Burgess and Slade.

I have a strong suspicion that Easter will make the cut as the back 5 utility forward.

A Guardian article here that says it will be depressingly conservative of the selectors if England don't take either Cipriani or Slade. I tend to agree that England need to give themselves the option of throwing in creativity/unpredictability if the games not going their way.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/aug/25/england-henry-slade-danny-ciprinai-2015-rugby-world-cup-squad-stuart-lancaster

Also an interesting (linked) article from Cipriani's point of view:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/23/danny-cipriani-stuart-lancaster-france-world-cup

It's going to be fascinating to see who gets picked on Thursday.

Rowntree has apparently revealed that Hartley could be recalled - that would be a big relief to me to be honest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11823851/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Dylan-Hartley-could-be-recalled-for-England-reveals-Graham-Rowntree.html

BTW, that's the end of my news round up!

I've just posted this on the other thread but its more appropriate here;

The telegraph are saying the centres will be Barritt, Joseph, Burgess or Burrell which means Burgess and Slade, with Baade and Brown as the selected fullbacks.

So neither Burrell, Cipriani or 36 make the 31.....

I just want to get this strait. Correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge apart from Burgess and Slade who played together for the very first time the other saturday, none, and I mean any, of the others have EVER played in combination together before.....maybe Joseph and Barritt?

If this selection is accuate then I am utterly speechless;

Barritt, Burgess, Joseph & Slade

Baade & Brown

and Barritt is injured ffs having played less than a handfull of games in the past year...Burgess has played more union!

Well Burrell and 36 have had indifferent seasons. From the amount of game time 36 has had it seems clear he isnt on top form, and good though his first 6N was Burrell was a weak link this year.

Cipriani is more complicated, and that really just comes down to competing with the wunderkind Ford and a seemingly (and finally) revitalised Farrell

I am not keen on Goode being there either but who knows. The coaches are the ones who have been working with these guys over the last few weeks and have been watching them all season. We just BS behind a keyboard

lostinwales wrote:Well Burrell and 36 have had indifferent seasons. From the amount of game time 36 has had it seems clear he isnt on top form, and good though his first 6N was Burrell was a weak link this year.

Cipriani is more complicated, and that really just comes down to competing with the wunderkind Ford and a seemingly (and finally) revitalised Farrell

I am not keen on Goode being there either but who knows. The coaches are the ones who have been working with these guys over the last few weeks and have been watching them all season. We just BS behind a keyboard

Trust me i've been slagging off stewie for years but this centre selection is utter madness

kingelderfield wrote:...Correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge apart from Burgess and Slade who played together for the very first time the other saturday, none, and I mean any, of the others have EVER played in combination together before.....maybe Joseph and Barritt?

I also pointed that out (Burrell and Joseph have played together, of course). The question is: what is the solution? To maximize midfield experience, Lancaster could select Farrell at fly half, and put Twelvetrees and Burrell or Barritt outside him, but does anyone think that's our best World Cup combination?

Two of the players with most experience at centre under Lancaster are unlikely to go. It looks like Tuilagi would have been injured anyway, while Twelvetrees is not in form. That leaves Burrell/Joseph as the pair with most experience but Barritt seems better at organizing the defence.

Quite a few have made the case for Eastmond and Joseph, arguing that the full Bath midfield would be our best combination. That's definitely a route which Lancaster hasn't explored but he's done so by choice. He hasn't accidentally forgotten about Eastmond, he just doesn't think that back line will work at Test level.

For more than 3 years stewie has been screwing around with the centre selection and after all this he comes up with this nonsense.

Thye have never played together before and this is the WC!

Price you pay for form and injuries I guess.

kingelderfield wrote:For more than 3 years stewie has been screwing around with the centre selection and after all this he comes up with this nonsense.

Thye have never played together before and this is the WC!

What would your selection decisions have been over the same period?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Price you pay for form and injuries I guess.

Hi,

actually I think its the price you pay for not paying top dollar for a top line international coach and not investing in serious elite player contracts.....all the rfu do now is pay for their availability so they can play the game and they can sell out hq. What they don't do is protect and enable the players and suitable world class coaches the opportunity to prepare a world beating team.

Ah right. Nothing to do with injuries then fair enough. What would have been your ideal choices? Presumably Burrell, Twelvetrees, Eastmond as they are the players you've trumpeted before and Joseph with Burrell and Twelvetrees your choices as they are the ones that have played the most? I'm still not convinced that Mallett was a top international coach at the time of appointment though and he was the only other choice.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

Giggle

BamBam wrote:Telegraph reckon Slade is in and its between Burrell and Burgess

No contest (even from a Bath man) - Burrell is the man in possession from the 6N and has done nothing to warrant being excluded from either the squad or starting team.

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Price you pay for form and injuries I guess.

Hi,

actually I think its the price you pay for not paying top dollar for a top line international coach and not investing in serious elite player contracts.....all the rfu do now is pay for their availability so they can play the game and they can sell out hq. What they don't do is protect and enable the players and suitable world class coaches the opportunity to prepare a world beating team.

I would agree with that, but you can hardly lay all the blame at Lancaster's feet.

The reason that the RFU don't have elite player contracts is that they were still stuck in the amateur era back in 1997. The "moratorium on professionalism" allowed rich backers to come in, buy the clubs and contract the players, immediately creating a conflict of interest with the RFU. The RFU missed the boat 18 years ago. They only really began to fix it with the EPS agreement in 2007-8, which gave them better access to the elite England players and more say in how they were managed.

But the head coach is still dependent on the goodwill of the club DoRs. In that regard, things have improved and Lancaster deserves a decent amount of credit - he's spent a lot of time with DoRs and the relationship with the clubs is reportedly much better than when he took over.

However, the EPS agreement is up for renewal and I hope the RFU looks at the level of injuries and comes up with a deal that allows them more direct control over the players. I'd be up for a dual contract situation in which the RFU has direct control over a player's fitness and conditioning and in return the club gets enough cash to hire cover (outside the salary cap for those stick-in-the-mud clubs that still cleave to that antiquated way of working [1]).

In terms of centres, you can't really blame Lancaster for having gone through a lot of pairings. Centre has been the position where he's had the most issue with injury. The pairings he's tried have almost always been determined by who's been fit - Joseph and Burrell only got tried because Tuilagi has been long-term injured. Burrell got shifted to 12 because of injuries to Barritt and Tuilagi and Twelvetrees' lack of form. Joseph and Barritt have never played together because they've never been fit at the same time.

It's also been quite rare that those new pairings have floundered. Individual players have gone in and out of form, but the pairings have generally been OK at worst - I think that's probably a result of his "conservatism" in insisting that players spend time training with the squad before bringing them into the team.

For once I think we're in agreement that the RFU made a mistake and should work at correcting it. But don't use it as a stick to beat Lancaster, or even the current RFU management, who've generally been working in the right direction.

[1] Note: irony.

BamBam wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

Giggle

You'd think they would learn.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/just-how-many-englands-xv-8588691

bathmad wrote:

BamBam wrote:Telegraph reckon Slade is in and its between Burrell and Burgess

No contest (even from a Bath man) - Burrell is the man in possession from the 6N and has done nothing to warrant being excluded from either the squad or starting team.

Unless you watched him all year I guess. Burrell/Joseph could be the combo, but it just looks weak defensively. Burrell surely can't play against Roberts after the European game...

BamBam wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

Giggle

Other than the 50/50 calls going Wales way (e.g. AW-J over Lawes), I think the only real glaring errors in that are the half backs - if Ford was wearing the Wales 10 jersey he would be worshipped as a Deity and at least their best outside half since Jiffy (or even Bennet), while I would take either of Youngs or Care ahead of Webb.

Burrell was not good at 12. Hes only the "man in" because they had run out of options, and got his place based on what he'd done at 13 with more space.
Not that Im a great fan of Burgess either, but there does seem to be a certain bloody mindedness from Lancaster in regard to getting him in ..especially since Tuilagi has been lost. They wont that guy who can turn a game on his own and who can disrupt any opposition in attack and defence. There tends to be less space and on average bigger and faster players when playing tests against the top sides than there is at club level, Burgess is in theory the sort of guy who can flourish better in those conditions. Ultimately if youre looking at trying to assemble a side that can compete with the very best you need players who can do that. - I have to caveat that though with massive reservations about Burgess at 12 and his readiness for the world cup.
In Burrels favour he offers genuine cover for Joseph at 13.

Interesting to note as well that Rowntree has been buddying up to Hartley as a potnetial "injury" replacement for one of the hooker spots despite him being unable to attend the training sessions/games due to his ban...and despite the "last chance" hes been given twice by Lancaster. It does suggest they are as underwhelmed as the rest of us by what his rivals have delivered in the set piece so far.

BamBam wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

Giggle

Probably explains the last two matches! I particularly like Halfpenny being chosen over the best fullback in the world, Mike Brown.

And according to one comment, England and Australia are getting destroyed by Fiji:

"The key is the schedule. Wales face the weakest team first up while England will take a right battering against a fresh and rampant Fiji.

Then Oz face Fiji who have Nadolo back and get battered while Wales take on the remnants of England."

dummy_half wrote:

I have a strong suspicion that Easter will make the cut as the back 5 utility forward.

If Nick Easter did go it would be quite a thing, espeiclaly as dumping him was trumpeted as one of the great things Lancaster did when he came in to remodel England ( hows Dowson going these days?)

From memory he wasnt initially selected in Johnosns first EPS either.

You cant keep a fat man down I guess, especially when theres £35,000 worth of toilet paper on offer.

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

Giggle

Other than the 50/50 calls going Wales way (e.g. AW-J over Lawes), I think the only real glaring errors in that are the half backs - if Ford was wearing the Wales 10 jersey he would be worshipped as a Deity and at least their best outside half since Jiffy (or even Bennet), while I would take either of Youngs or Care ahead of Webb.

The worst of all for me is Jenkins apparently being better than Marler because he's played in more Lions tours!

I also think a brick wall has the same level of rugby competence as Dan Lydiate so would have any of our options ahead of him.

Agree with you on the halfbacks too, although I do really like Webb

Gooseberry wrote:Interesting to note as well that Rowntree has been buddying up to Hartley as a potnetial "injury" replacement for one of the hooker spots despite him being unable to attend the training sessions/games due to his ban...and despite the "last chance" hes been given twice by Lancaster. It does suggest they are as underwhelmed as the rest of us by what his rivals have delivered in the set piece so far.

Because it's been game losingly dreadful.

Even Hartley has been poor for England recently though....no definates that he will come back and everything will be rosey !

Once the squad is named, i assume the players who would be regarded as injury replacements are still able to train with the squad to keep up fitness and knowledge of patterns etc?

Is there anything stopping Hartley doing the same? Or are the players not chosen going back to their clubs instead

Hartley would have made no difference to the lineout on Saturday. The intercepted ones from Youngs and George were thrown exactly where they were intended and where hartley would have thrown. Lawes calling was predictable and France just kept throwing Chouly up in front of him.

If this is not improved come RWC (perhaps keeping powder dry he says optimistically) then Rowntree should consider his position.

BamBam wrote:Once the squad is named, i assume the players who would be regarded as injury replacements are still able to train with the squad to keep up fitness and knowledge of patterns etc?

Is there anything stopping Hartley doing the same? Or are the players not chosen going back to their clubs instead

As of the deadline cut-off (Midnight 31st August) anyone not in the squad is prohibited from training with the squad.

LondonTiger wrote:Hartley would have made no difference to the lineout on Saturday. The intercepted ones from Youngs and George were thrown exactly where they were intended and where hartley would have thrown. Lawes calling was predictable and France just kept throwing Chouly up in front of him.

If this is not improved come RWC (perhaps keeping powder dry he says optimistically) then Rowntree should consider his position.

I was wondering this. At what point do you question the coaching when hookers who find their man for their clubs keep missing the target?

[quote="LondonTiger"]Hartley would have made no difference to the lineout on Saturday. The intercepted ones from Youngs and George were thrown exactly where they were intended and where hartley would have thrown. Lawes calling was predictable and France just kept throwing Chouly up in front of him.

If this is not improved come RWC (perhaps keeping powder dry he says optimistically) then Rowntree should consider his position.[quote]

Can he take Farrell with him....and maybe even Lancaster.

Gooseberry wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

I have a strong suspicion that Easter will make the cut as the back 5 utility forward.

If Nick Easter did go it would be quite a thing, espeiclaly as dumping him was trumpeted as one of the great things Lancaster did when he came in to remodel England ( hows Dowson going these days?)

From memory he wasnt initially selected in Johnosns first EPS either.

You cant keep a fat man down I guess, especially when theres £35,000 worth of toilet paper on offer.

All that Lancaster has ever said about not selecting Easter was that as a 33 year old in 2011, he was not expected to be still playing or still in top form in 2015. He is both, and got picked for the 6N on that basis. He currently looks in better form than Morgan and arguably Vunipola.

Scottrf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Hartley would have made no difference to the lineout on Saturday. The intercepted ones from Youngs and George were thrown exactly where they were intended and where hartley would have thrown. Lawes calling was predictable and France just kept throwing Chouly up in front of him.

If this is not improved come RWC (perhaps keeping powder dry he says optimistically) then Rowntree should consider his position.

I was wondering this. At what point do you question the coaching when hookers who find their man for their clubs keep missing the target?

Not straight is hooker's fault. Overthrown is usually hooker's fault (but on the odd occasion can be a timing issue with lifters and jumper), interceptions however (imo) are usually not the hooker's fault. It is interesting that the most reliable source of ball was Robshaw at thge back - supposedly the hardest throw.

England (and Saints and Leicester) often put Wood/Croft up front and use one lifter to throw them up high. this means:

Hooker than throw a touch higher, England have 3 genuine options (making it harder to defend) and Lawes gets an easier ride. Not using Launchbury at the lineout and having the bulkier Haskell in the side means the plans should change. Instead we just reduce our options and are predictable.

When I say missing the target, I didn't necessarily mean because of a bad throw. I'm not a lineout expert.

Sorry point I was making was that Saturday's errors, for me, were more a coaching and tactics issue than a player issue.