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Who is the GREATEST boxer?

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:56 am

Basing this purley on boxing ability and NOT record or opponants.

Who stands out as the greatest pure boxer ever. The answer might surprise you.

ALEXIS ARGUELLO

Ali does not even make top 10.

Leonard close second.




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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:58 am

Just a statement ?????? Nothing to back it up.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 26 Aug 2015, 10:03 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just a statement ?????? Nothing to back it up.

Fair enough.

Arguello had everything. Speed, acuracy, power (both fists), ring smarts, technique, movement.

Best example would be his technical beat down of Mancini.

Arguello could box off the back foot had exceptional timing and 1 of the best jabs in boxing history. If you wanted to a finer example of pure boxing at its beat then Arguello is the man.

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Post by Nico the gman Wed 26 Aug 2015, 10:36 am

Sugar Ray Leonard for me, speed, movement, power, stamina, chin, Leonard is the most complete fighter I've ever seen, and I was a big Arguello fan.

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Post by milkyboy Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:01 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Basing this purley on boxing ability and NOT record or opponants.

Who stands out as the greatest pure boxer ever. The answer might surprise you.

ALEXIS ARGUELLO

Ali does not even make top 10.

Leonard close second.




You're absolutely right onetwo. Your answer surprised me.

Fantastic fighter, as much for his heart and punch as anything though. He got outboxed a fair bit for the greatest boxer ever. Not sure he was the fastest or had the greatest movement either. But hey it's all about opinions... and your's is a crap one as usual Wink

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Post by Rowley Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:14 pm

Hard to pick past Sugar Ray Leonard in this. Could do it all, brilliant speed, toughness, decent chin and enough of a pop to get the job done. His namesake Benny runs him close though, defensive wizard, could box or brawl almost to equal levels, possibly had the greatest ring intellect ever. If there was one rap on him he perhaps was not the biggest puncher, but he was no Malignaggi in that respect. Nobody stops Freddie Welsh without being able to dig a bit.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:17 pm

Lennox Lewis.

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Post by milkyboy Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:19 pm

that old timer, forget his name... robertson? He was a bit tasty too.

Leonard is up there for sure...maybe a little too easy to hit?

Anyway the answer is obviously Mayweather... or louis

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:24 pm

You don't think Arguello's relatively heavy feet and average inside game put him out of the running here, OneTwo? Amazing technician, mind you, definitely from the highest bracket when you talk about complete fighters as there's no such thing as a completely perfect one, but not quite THE greatest pure boxer, for me.

Agree with the above - Leonard is always a decent shout here. Hand speed, power, nimble footwork, versatile in being able to brawl and box depending on the situation / opponent, good stamina, great chin and a massive heart. A genuine all-rounder, just like the original Sugar Ray of course. Robinson not quite as good inside or as dazzlingly fast as Leonard for me, but a more genuinely concussive hitter at their best weight (and at their second weight of 160, as Mr. Fullmer found out) and perhaps even tougher and more durable, albeit Leonard was still excellent in that area. The only shortcoming either of them had in relation to the rest of their game was defence, I guess, as both were a little erratic in that area, although both of them would probably have been able to improve in that regard if they'd had less attacking inclinations.

Ezard Charles would be up there, albeit it's a shame we don't have a bit more film of him available from his absolute smack-bang prime years, but one of his conquerors deserves an honourable mention here - Harold Johnson. The very definition of a 'technician.' The job he did on Charles was very impressive, but the one he did on Doug Jones was outstanding. Virtuoso stuff.

And if I can blur the edges a bit (because he didn't look all that hot sometimes when faced with a runner or a rangey, backfoot fighter), the way Sal Sanchez beat the aggressive types was astonishing. If a fighter came to him, he wouldn't just beat them - he'd dissect them. The Gomez fight was the greatest night of his career, but for me the first Lopez performance where he won his title in terms of a pure boxing clinic was even greater. THE perfect display of aggressive counter-punching. You'd think he had a forcefield around him to protect against Lopez's shots the way he was effortlessly slipping them by inches without so much as blinking, and his accuracy was frightening. Death by a thousand right hand counters. Might have to take another look at that soon now that I've reminded myself of it.
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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:29 pm

Ray Leonard is hard to top.

Floyd and Superfeather could do anything.

SRR is not just regarded as number one because of his record. He could box going forward or backward. He had all the tools.

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Post by mobilemaster8 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:32 pm

Floyd Mayweather for me. Been watching boxing since 95 so a good 20 years and he stands out in that time frame for me.

Of course I have seen the footage of past greats, but never got to see them outside the ring or every fight etc.

Foyd is an absolute master of the sport who can move, trade, jab, counter, be the aggressor....he seems to be able to do everything.

Casual fans want him battered because they think he is "running" but in a "pure boxing" sense, he does it by the absolute book.

IMO of course ;-)

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Post by BoxingFan88 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 12:44 pm

mobilemaster8 wrote:Floyd Mayweather for me. Been watching boxing since 95 so a good 20 years and he stands out in that time frame for me.

Of course I have seen the footage of past greats, but never got to see them outside the ring or every fight etc.

Foyd is an absolute master of the sport who can move, trade, jab, counter, be the aggressor....he seems to be able to do everything.

Casual fans want him battered because they think he is "running" but in a "pure boxing" sense, he does it by the absolute book.

IMO of course ;-)

Floyd has massively faded in his last few fights, but in his prime he was amazing

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 1:08 pm

Can be only one guy for me Tommy Hearns...

Leonard and Duran couldn't get past his jab...Boxed the backside of Hill who had been champion for years..

Sure I'd pick Robbo to beat him but he'd struggle to get past his jab...

Hearns had a lightning fast jab and the height advantage to make it a dominant feature...

Outsmarted but never outboxed until terminal decline..

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 26 Aug 2015, 1:41 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Can be only one guy for me Tommy Hearns...

Leonard and Duran couldn't get past his jab...Boxed the backside of Hill who had been champion for years..

Sure I'd pick Robbo to beat him but he'd struggle to get past his jab...

Hearns had a lightning fast jab and the height advantage to make it a dominant feature...

Outsmarted but never outboxed until terminal decline..

Hearns is a good shout but not a pure boxer imo. More of a explosive boxer. You don't teach kids to keep thier left hand as low as Tommy used to drop it.

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Post by hazharrison Wed 26 Aug 2015, 5:48 pm

Hipster view: Eder Jofre
Historian view: Willie Pep
Modernist's view: Sweet Pea

Others worth a mention: Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, Billy Conn, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 26 Aug 2015, 6:44 pm

hazharrison wrote:

Modernist's view: Sweet Pea


Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes ...Not that naughty waughty Floyd.....I don't like him...I print half articles about him !!. Rolling Eyes

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 6:57 pm

Mobile master I agree about Floyd

Love him or hate him, his ability and I.Q are second to none. Is he TBE?

No not as far as record is concerned, but as far as skills are concerned, he is right up there.

Hearns can beat anyone on his best night. He made mistakes in some of his biggest fights, but he is a f....g talent. Absolute monster of a fighter.

Gene Tunney would be another pick. I have only seen a clip or two but he seemed to have a bit of everything. Fantastic boxer who sometimes gets overlooked.

I sometimes leave Tunney out of top ten,because of forgetfulness. He ranks right up there with Ezzard Charles.

As I have already mentioned, SRL probably deserves the top pick,as far as modern fighters go. Not as good defensively as Mayweather, but makes up for it with killer instinct and a better offense.

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 26 Aug 2015, 7:30 pm

not sure floyd has enough of an arsenal to suggest he the best boxing ever, especially when compared to someone like leonard.

yes he was a bit more looser at super feather but the majority of those fights were against no hopers, certainly not shown it enough against his toughest opponents for me. leonards attack was miles better than floyd's imo

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:20 pm

I don't think it's miles better. Floyd just is more safety first.

Don't get me wrong, Leonard can dig harder and is more aggressive, but Floyd can fight when required

Srl is definitely a great all rounder though. I have Duran slightly ahead in a top ten, but Sugar only had half the fights. Nobody with under 50 fights, ranks as high as Ray imo.

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Post by hazharrison Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:21 pm

Is the thread about greatest all-rounder or best pure boxer?

If it's the former then Ray Robinson is the logical choice. Even Leonard would give you that one.

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:24 pm

Yep Haz Sugar Robinson is the king, but if modern fighters are being ranked I can't pick anyone better all round than Leonard.


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Post by hazharrison Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:31 pm

AdamT wrote:Yep Haz Sugar Robinson is the king, but if modern fighters are being ranked I can't pick anyone better all round than Leonard.


Are we talking boxers or all-rounders?

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:33 pm

All around. Ray can fight too. Do you think maybe Duran at lightweight could top this list as far as quite modern fighters go?

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Post by hazharrison Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:40 pm

AdamT wrote:All around. Ray can fight too. Do you think maybe Duran at lightweight could top this list as far as quite modern fighters go?

Duran had one method - although he was a wonderful technician. If we're talking all-rounders then yes, Leonard is the pick. A natural puncher who boxed - he always had that badass bomber to fall back on.

Less obvious picks: Toney, Holyfield and Barrera could do it all from the modern era. Box, punch, take one, bomb fighters out etc.

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:42 pm

A motivated Toney for sure and yes, Barrera of course. He can fight but is a wonderful boxer too.

What about Jmm. I know he is mainly an aggressive counter puncher,but he can do it all to.

Leonard is the pick for recent times, but SRR was and always will be the master. Wish I could see more of his early career. He's the king

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Post by hazharrison Wed 26 Aug 2015, 8:53 pm

AdamT wrote:A motivated Toney for sure and yes, Barrera of course. He can fight but is a wonderful boxer too.

What about Jmm. I know he is mainly an aggressive counter puncher,but he can do it all to.

Leonard is the pick for recent times, but SRR was and always will be the master. Wish I could see more of his early career. He's the king

Like George Best - most of it was never captured on film!

Marquez was more of a boxer throughout his career until hooking up with a shamed steroid supplier (at which point he went nuclear).


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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:27 pm

I'm as big a fan as Floyd as you will get.

How he has the audacity to rate himself over SRR is terrible.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:49 pm

This is the problem with boxing fans, Robinson isn't a god, he's held up on a pedestal and if you dare question his status then you better take cover.

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:51 pm

Who's your pick Hammer??

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:52 pm

It is Robinson but it's pathetic to ridicule Mayweather for thinking highly of his own ability.

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Post by AdamT Wed 26 Aug 2015, 9:54 pm

I'm more on about his resume doesn't live up to Robinson.

H2h he can say what he likes. He has proved he is in the conversation as far as skill levels go.

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Post by 3fingers Thu 27 Aug 2015, 9:03 am

In the heavier weight class I'd say Evander Holyfield. His form was brilliant and he alays kept his shape.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 27 Aug 2015, 9:40 am

I thought Bowe outboxed him............

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 27 Aug 2015, 9:43 am

If this was a thread on the best defensive fighter ever, you'd have to chuck Floyd's name into the hat. Right up there with Gans, Pea etc.

But the best boxer would mean more a master of both defence and offence. Someone equally adept at either who can switch from one to the other with ease. Someone who's hard to hit but can take his opponent out.

The two Rays are the obvious choice, if the reader would permit me, I'll throw in Jimmy Wilde. How about Benny Leonard too, but as Jeff said maybe lacked that little bit of ko power. But his adaptability was second to none in that he always could make his opponent fight the way he wanted him to. He'd make a counter-puncher lead and put an aggressive  fighter on the back foot. Fought too in what has been described as the greatest division ever. His lightweight era being the deepest division in the history of any division.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 27 Aug 2015, 10:45 am

Floyd did switch from one to the other with ease.

He didn't start his career as a defensive boxer. He changed because of his hands/different coaches approaches.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 27 Aug 2015, 10:49 am

Not what you'd call an offensive wizard though. Hardly a concussive puncher.

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Post by AdamT Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:01 am

Floyd punched hard at 130-40. Not one punch knockout artist but could dig.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:03 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:Not what you'd call an offensive wizard though. Hardly a concussive puncher.
He was. Maybe he wasn't what you would call one. A limited view of what an offensive boxer is in my opinion to say they have to be a one punch KO artist.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:09 am

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. Being a concussive hitter is just one part of being a good offensive fighter.

Floyd's got a good offence, but not what you'd call a great one by any stretch in my view.

Your'e entitled to your opinion though.

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Post by AdamT Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:17 am

I think he has a great offence. Just don't think he likes taking risks now.

You are entitled to your opinion,everyone sees things differently.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:25 am

What I'd call a great offence though Adam, is a fighter who consistently gets his opponent in trouble during a contest. Let's be honest, Floyd rarely has his opponent in trouble. I excuse Hatton in that one as the the ref was so appalling.

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Post by AdamT Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:40 am

In his early years he did. Since moving to welter he is risk free and doesn't have power. He has moved five weight classes.


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Post by Scottrf Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:41 am

You can excuse Hatton simply because we are clearly taking about his lower weight career. Was Corrales never in trouble?

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:47 am

I don't know much about Floyd's early career. Basing my opinion on the last few years. Accept your opinion Adam.

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Post by Coxy001 Thu 27 Aug 2015, 12:31 pm

Can I report ONEAdamTruss for using capital letters in the title and thus get him (thankfully) banned? Wink

Best "pure" boxer? Hmmm. Ali? Pep? SRL? SRR? Armstrong? Whitaker? Sanchez? Would be here all day


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Post by Scottrf Thu 27 Aug 2015, 12:40 pm

Armstrong as best pure boxer? Good joke.

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Post by Rowley Thu 27 Aug 2015, 12:56 pm

Coxy001 wrote:Can I report ONEAdamTruss for using capital letters in the title and thus get him (thankfully) banned? Wink

You can certainly do the first part, not sure you'll have much success with the latter.

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Post by AdamT Thu 27 Aug 2015, 1:21 pm

Is onetwo another alias of mine??

Herman you are correct about Floyd in recent years. He is very defensive.


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Post by AdamT Thu 27 Aug 2015, 1:23 pm

Coxy how do you get banned?

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Post by Scottrf Thu 27 Aug 2015, 1:39 pm

AdamT wrote:Coxy how do you get banned?
Rumour has it that it was a request from Boxrec because of the load he puts on their servers when posting.

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