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Did Steve Collins get lucky?

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jimdig
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Did Steve Collins get lucky? Empty Did Steve Collins get lucky?

Post by wheelchair1991 Mon 31 Aug 2015, 9:45 pm

I want to point out at the start i have full respect for Collins as a fight he no doubt is one tough S.O.B. However when lucking back at his career i can't help but feel he got lucky in regards to the timing of his most famous fights over this side of the pond.
Chris Eubank being a prime example. Although he deaerves credit for beating Eubank twice, there is no doubt that after the Watson fight Eubank was never the same. He had lost that killer instinct win at all cost attitude. Which is very understandable given what happened in that tragic fight.

Then we come the the Nigel Benn win. I do not see after the Mcclellan fight and all its brutality how any man could physically or mentally be the same. I believe Collins fought a shop worn Benn that night.

I also cannot let Collins off for ducking Joe Calzaghe. It was a total duck, i believe proven by the fact that during a Sky Sports super middleweight special a couple of years ago, with Collins, Calzaghe, Eubank, Woodhall and Roy Jones, Collins gave several different excuses as to why he did not take the fight with Joe.

What are your opinions on Steve Collins?

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Post by AdamT Mon 31 Aug 2015, 9:49 pm

Maybe with Eubanks, but I actually think Collins could always beat Benn.

Benn a better fighter overall, but Collins could take his power and Collins was strong at the weight. I think Collins would come from behind and stop Benn late.

Am I biased and delusional? Probably, wouldn't be the first time.

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Post by hazharrison Mon 31 Aug 2015, 10:06 pm

Benn was shot to bits. Eubank was way below par due to the exhausting Sky schedule he signed onto. He was also never the same after the Watson fights (he should have stopped Collins in the first fight but faffed about and let the moment pass).

He was lucky to get them when he did but that wasn't Steve's fault.

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Post by AdamT Mon 31 Aug 2015, 10:08 pm

Yeah Haz Benn was. Don't know why, but I think Steve could beat him.

He wouldn't beat Eubank though. Also just to add, Joe would of beat him no problem.

While we are on the Supermiddle topic, imagine Benn vs Froch.

That would of been a humdinger.

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Post by wheelchair1991 Mon 31 Aug 2015, 10:21 pm

Always seems to me Collins has a massive chip on his shoulder

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Post by Happytravelling Mon 31 Aug 2015, 11:14 pm

I thought we were going to start with the Pyatt win ;-)

Wasnt there talk of him making a come back a little while ago?

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 31 Aug 2015, 11:19 pm

I'm not the biggest Collins fan, but I do think he tends to get a bit of a raw deal in terms of how he's remembered, particularly in comparison to Benn and Eubank.

Have said before that, for me, Collins gets more kudos for his very good losing efforts to guys such as McCallum and Reggie Johnson than Benn and in particular Eubank get for quite a few of their wins against hand-picked second-raters.

The word 'lucky' always seems to be on the tip of everyone's tongue when Collins gets discussed, but I find it interesting that he's perceived as the lucky guy of that era. Compare him to Eubank, for instance.

You could argue that Eubank was 'lucky' that he had (if memory serves me) a basic guarantee of £400,000 per fight from Sky to fight generally poor opposition and allowed to stay within his comfort zone. You could argue that there's a degree of 'luck' to one of this greatest wins in the shape of Watson II, given that he was absolutely nowhere in the fight by round eleven (I honestly can't find a single round to give him before that point) and rescued the fight out of nowhere with one single shot, albeit it was a fantastic one. You could argue that he was 'lucky' to be the recipient of more than one dubious verdict during his Super-Middleweight title reign, too. Yet it's Collins who apparently got all the breaks?

Granted, Eubank fought his way to that status with that fantastically courageous performance first time out against Benn, but I think he had an easier assignment with which to try and break in to the big time than Collins did (McCallum, Johnson and Kalambay).

Benn was definitely over the hill when Collins got to him (like Adam, I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that Collins could have out-lasted Benn to chop him down late had they met earlier, but that's another story) but I don't tend to cut Eubank as much slack for dropping those decisions to Collins as others do. I'll happily accept it wasn't a one hundred per cent Eubank by that stage, given his loss of his cutting edge after Watson II, but he hadn't been involved in too many taxing contests since that fight, and even a post-Watson Eubank was able to hold Benn to a draw and get a pretty decent away day victory in Germany against Rocchigiani, which was one of Eubank's better showings.

I still think Eubank lost the first fight as much as Collins won it, mind you, but I think Collins deserves a bit more credit for it than he gets, and for his career in general. I guess it's not so much that I think Collins is underrated in the usual sense, because I think most are realistic about his abilities and accept that he arguably overachieved, given the tools he had and the ones he lacked. But the way he's seen in direct comparison to a Benn and more so a Eubank doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by hazharrison Tue 01 Sep 2015, 7:37 am

88Chris05 wrote:I'm not the biggest Collins fan, but I do think he tends to get a bit of a raw deal in terms of how he's remembered, particularly in comparison to Benn and Eubank.

Have said before that, for me, Collins gets more kudos for his very good losing efforts to guys such as McCallum and Reggie Johnson than Benn and in particular Eubank get for quite a few of their wins against hand-picked second-raters.

The word 'lucky' always seems to be on the tip of everyone's tongue when Collins gets discussed, but I find it interesting that he's perceived as the lucky guy of that era. Compare him to Eubank, for instance.

You could argue that Eubank was 'lucky' that he had (if memory serves me) a basic guarantee of £400,000 per fight from Sky to fight generally poor opposition and allowed to stay within his comfort zone. You could argue that there's a degree of 'luck' to one of this greatest wins in the shape of Watson II, given that he was absolutely nowhere in the fight by round eleven (I honestly can't find a single round to give him before that point) and rescued the fight out of nowhere with one single shot, albeit it was a fantastic one. You could argue that he was 'lucky' to be the recipient of more than one dubious verdict during his Super-Middleweight title reign, too. Yet it's Collins who apparently got all the breaks?

Granted, Eubank fought his way to that status with that fantastically courageous performance first time out against Benn, but I think he had an easier assignment with which to try and break in to the big time than Collins did (McCallum, Johnson and Kalambay).

Benn was definitely over the hill when Collins got to him (like Adam, I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that Collins could have out-lasted Benn to chop him down late had they met earlier, but that's another story) but I don't tend to cut Eubank as much slack for dropping those decisions to Collins as others do. I'll happily accept it wasn't a one hundred per cent Eubank by that stage, given his loss of his cutting edge after Watson II, but he hadn't been involved in too many taxing contests since that fight, and even a post-Watson Eubank was able to hold Benn to a draw and get a pretty decent away day victory in Germany against Rocchigiani, which was one of Eubank's better showings.

I still think Eubank lost the first fight as much as Collins won it, mind you, but I think Collins deserves a bit more credit for it than he gets, and for his career in general. I guess it's not so much that I think Collins is underrated in the usual sense, because I think most are realistic about his abilities and accept that he arguably overachieved, given the tools he had and the ones he lacked. But the way he's seen in direct comparison to a Benn and more so a Eubank doesn't sit well with me.

Lot of to-ing and fro-ing in that post! I'm not sure where you went with it.

Collins beat a tired Eubank that thought he could win every fight of his 10-fight deal with Sky by pipping fighters on the cards. Dan Schommer, Mauricio Amaral and Benn (and even lowly Ray Close to a lesser extent) all arguably deserved decisions over a Eubank no longer a patch on his previous self. Eubank wore himself out physically and mentally, he didn't want to hurt anyone.

I believe Benn, Eubank and Watson would all have beaten Collins handily at their respective bests. Eubank was ridiculously lucky with a fair few decisions but he built his career on ballsy displays against Benn, Watson, Calzaghe and Thompson (in fact I'd take the Eubank who fought Calzaghe over Collins). Collins made his name beating up a shot fighter and a knackered fighter.

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 01 Sep 2015, 8:16 am

Where's the to-ing and fro-ing, Haz? I argued that it's unfair to always have the word lucky at the ready when Collins' wins over Eubank are discussed (or Collins' late career surge in general) when there are countless examples of Lady Luck lending Eubank a helping hand throughout his career, which in comparison hardly ever gets mentioned.

The way you've now argued that Eubank would have beaten Collins a year or two after they actually did fight, as well as a year or two before, highlights what I'm talking about - serves to make out that Collins was even more jammy with his timing than initially thought, as if the stars aligned in some kind of once-in-a-generation way for him. I can appreciate people saying that Eubank was past his peak when he fought Collins, but he clearly wasn't shot or as diminished as others claim.

It's interesting that you say that Eubank made his name in part due to gutsy or close losses (Calzaghe, Thompson) but when it comes to Collins, you say he simply made his name feasting on one shot fighter and one knackered one. No mention of his gutsy or close losses to the guys I've mentioned previously. It's that kind of bias which doesn't sit well with me here and leads me to believe that Collins gets a raw deal.

I've tried to make it clear that I've got no issue with anyone placing Collins behind Benn and Eubank, or that they feel he got them at a decent time. I largely agree. But Eubank and Benn being in a different stratosphere to him altogether? Collins being the only one whose career had an element of luck about it? Not for me.
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Post by hazharrison Tue 01 Sep 2015, 12:57 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Where's the to-ing and fro-ing, Haz? I argued that it's unfair to always have the word lucky at the ready when Collins' wins over Eubank are discussed (or Collins' late career surge in general) when there are countless examples of Lady Luck lending Eubank a helping hand throughout his career, which in comparison hardly ever gets mentioned.

The way you've now argued that Eubank would have beaten Collins a year or two after they actually did fight, as well as a year or two before, highlights what I'm talking about - serves to make out that Collins was even more jammy with his timing than initially thought, as if the stars aligned in some kind of once-in-a-generation way for him. I can appreciate people saying that Eubank was past his peak when he fought Collins, but he clearly wasn't shot or as diminished as others claim.

It's interesting that you say that Eubank made his name in part due to gutsy or close losses (Calzaghe, Thompson) but when it comes to Collins, you say he simply made his name feasting on one shot fighter and one knackered one. No mention of his gutsy or close losses to the guys I've mentioned previously. It's that kind of bias which doesn't sit well with me here and leads me to believe that Collins gets a raw deal.

I've tried to make it clear that I've got no issue with anyone placing Collins behind Benn and Eubank, or that they feel he got them at a decent time. I largely agree. But Eubank and Benn being in a different stratosphere to him altogether? Collins being the only one whose career had an element of luck about it? Not for me.

Eubank wasn’t shot but he was a diminished version of the guy who tackled Watson and (subsequently) Calzaghe and Thompson. The Watson fight damaged Eubank psychologically and it wasn’t until he tasted defeat (and the sting of his income dwindling) that he gathered himself sufficiently to fight again at full tilt. It might sound fanciful to claim that Collins was in the right place at the right time (and I imagine some will take Umbrage at such an assertion), however, that was how it played out for those who followed his career at the time.

Eubank gave Calzaghe (who I’d have picked to retire Collins had that fight gone ahead) and Thompson hell, yet was distinctly laboured against Collins. Weight-making and the 10-fights-in-a-year schedule had taken its toll on him physically. The Watson fight had taken its toll mentally.

Eubank disclosed that he was fearful of killing Collins and was haunted by visions of Watson mid-fight.

There was no such existential funk hanging over him against Calzaghe and Thompson. With his back against the wall (in a bid to save his career and more importantly his livelihood) he put in three of his most accomplished shifts. He was a plainly different fighter to the one who tried to pip Schommer, Amaral, Benn, Close and Collins while doing them no harm.

And regarding the point about Collins making his name: Collins didn’t become a star after his commendable losing efforts in the States, nor did he after dethroning Pyatt at 160. He made his name beating lesser versions of Eubank and Benn. That was the point I was attempting to make.

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Post by Rowley Tue 01 Sep 2015, 1:12 pm

Bit of an over exaggeration to claim Eubank gave Calzaghe hell. I was there and there was never a point in the fight when anything other than a Eubank win looks likely. Joe probably did not pace himself particularly well and so was blowing a bit down the stretch and Eubank certainly did not give him an easy nights work (when did he ever give any fighter such a night) but Joe beat him all the way.

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 01 Sep 2015, 1:32 pm

Collins was around at the right time - simple as that. He caught Eubank at exactly the right point in his (Eubank's) career. If Collins wasn't such a tough SOB, then he may well have lost the first fight. He also fought a Nigel Benn who clearly had no more fight left in him. The rest of his SMW reign was garbage, and it's been summed up that he wouldn't fight Calzaghe.

I don't think he was ever world class, and I think the public adoration that surrounds both Eubank & Benn totally eludes Collins. I think it's the latter that bugs Collins - aside from being the first man to officially beat Eubank, nobody outside the boxing world and a few fans remember him.

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Post by hazharrison Tue 01 Sep 2015, 2:01 pm

Rowley wrote:Bit of an over exaggeration to claim Eubank gave Calzaghe hell. I was there and there was never a point in the fight when anything other than a Eubank win looks likely. Joe probably did not pace himself particularly well and so was blowing a bit down the stretch and Eubank certainly did not give him an easy nights work (when did he ever give any fighter such a night) but Joe beat him all the way.

Calzaghe is on record as stating it was his toughest fight - an excruciating ordeal. Part of that was a result of poor pacing but Eubank took Calzaghe into the deep end that night.

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Post by wheelchair1991 Tue 01 Sep 2015, 2:13 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Collins was around at the right time - simple as that. He caught Eubank at exactly the right point in his (Eubank's) career. If Collins wasn't such a tough SOB, then he may well have lost the first fight. He also fought a Nigel Benn who clearly had no more fight left in him. The rest of his SMW reign was garbage, and it's been summed up that he wouldn't fight Calzaghe.

I don't think he was ever world class, and I think the public adoration that surrounds both Eubank & Benn totally eludes Collins. I think it's the latter that bugs Collins - aside from being the first man to officially beat Eubank, nobody outside the boxing world and a few fans remember him.

I think your right in your last paragraph

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Post by AdamT Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:14 pm

Do you guys realise that nobody outside the UK really rates Benn and Eubank that much??



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Post by milkyboy Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:15 pm

Chris is right, Collins was a decent fighter, with a few losses but losses against quality opposition. Undoubtedly, he didn't get the best versions of Benn and Eubank... Benn in particular, but he certainly would have had a chance against them regardless. I agree with earlier comments that he might well have out-toughed Benn at any point. Might... not a fight I'd bet my life on.

I've argued that the wins are caveated myself in the past, I still think they are to a degree, but ultimately, rather like bugner beating cooper, Collins ended a golden era for fight fans of the time... a period many of us are a bit nostalgic about... and we make too many excuses for Benn and Eubank and don't give enough credit to Collins.

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Post by hazharrison Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:26 pm

AdamT wrote:Do you guys realise that nobody outside the UK really rates Benn and Eubank that much??



I don't think that holds true. They both made the HOF ballot this year.

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Post by AdamT Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:28 pm

Good fighters, but not near great. Haz you question fighters like Wlad and Floyd, so don't give that crap about Benn and Eubanks being great.


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Post by hazharrison Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:56 pm

AdamT wrote:Good fighters, but not near great. Haz you question fighters like Wlad and Floyd, so don't give that crap about Benn and Eubanks being great.


I haven't ever suggested Benn or Eubank were great fighters Truss.....I mean Adam.

Arturo Gatti wasn't great and he made the HOF. I made the point to illustrate they were well-regarded across the pond.


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Post by AdamT Tue 01 Sep 2015, 3:59 pm

No doubt well regarded.

You have got me I again. I may sign in with my Truss account.

Over and Out!

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Post by WelshDevilRob Tue 01 Sep 2015, 9:56 pm

No shame in the defeats to Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson and Sumbu Kalambay - all three were exceptional boxers.
I do believe Nigel Benn was done after the Gerald McClellan war. Steve Collins was just beating a shell in Benn. His eubank wins were impressive, though Eubank was always an eratic performer. Again, I wouldn't say Eubank was at his peak.

Collins was undoubtedly a World class fighter but the biggest name wins on his record are against fighters that were past their best.

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Post by AdamT Tue 01 Sep 2015, 10:23 pm

Fair post man. Can't really argue with that.

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Post by Coxy001 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:41 am

AdamT wrote:Do you guys realise that nobody outside the UK really rates Benn and Eubank that much??



Tosh.

Sorry Truss... The Benn/Eubank/Watson fights/rivalry and still held in high esteem by most well versed boxing fans outside of the UK. MaxBoxing from memory have both Benn & Eubank in their top 10 SMWs of all time, to show an example that they are indeed well rated outside of these shores.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:53 am

I'll ignore the village idiot........I read somewhere that Collins accused jones Jr of ducking him which is a bit rich to anybody that saw McCallum basically shut him out......

Collins has a bit of Terry Norris about him (Not in style) where his record has impressive names... but with close scrutiny we see most of them were sliding...

Obviously not in Terry's league....

Rate Eubank the highest of the fab 4.........With Benn 2nd and Watson 3rd..

Think Graham was the most talented of the Brit middles I've seen..........Which shows you what a flop he was,.

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:55 am

They are not rated near as high as the UK.

Super Middle is a young divison, they won't be in top ten for long.

1.JC
2.Ward
3.Jones jr
4.Carl Froch

There are 4 guys that rank far ahead imo.

Not saying they aren't good fighters. Just not the God's they are potrayed to be on here by some.

FFs Coxy you don't rate Jones JR, so what would you know??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

I must be a quick typer.... Laugh

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:57 am

I am Truss, nice to meet you!

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Post by hazharrison Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:00 am

AdamT wrote:They are not rated near as high as the UK.

Super Middle is a young divison, they won't be in top ten for long.

1.JC
2.Ward
3.Jones jr
4.Carl Froch

There are 4 guys that rank far ahead imo.

Not saying they aren't good fighters. Just not the God's they are potrayed to be on here by some.

FFs Coxy you don't rate Jones JR, so what would you know??

Benn and Eubank are right behind that lot (and behind Kessler, probably).

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:02 am

I'd say they are rated just as highly in America than they are in the UK, the perception is that they're 'rated' highly over here when they're not, they're highly regarded which is something completely different. A lot of fight fans look back fondly at the fights Benn, Eubank and Watson had but you would be well off the mark if you think they're rated anywhere near as highly as Jones or Toney. Hell the general consensus has them all a fair way behind Calzaghe and Froch.

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:03 am

Yes Haz I think they are brilliant fighters, just not as great as some rate them.

I am 31, so I remember watching these guys in awe as well. I used to think they were the sh1t, until I grew up and watched Jones Jr, Toney etc.

Obviously they didn't stay at Super Middle for long.

Yes I would rate Kessler higher as well.

Toney beats both for me, but would probably have him behind. He didn't do enough in the divison for me.

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:05 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'd say they are rated just as highly in America than they are in the UK, the perception is that they're 'rated' highly over here when they're not, they're highly regarded which is something completely different. A lot of fight fans look back fondly at the fights Benn, Eubank and Watson had but you would be well off the mark if you think they're rated anywhere near as highly as Jones or Toney. Hell the general consensus has them all a fair way behind Calzaghe and Froch.

Well maybe I am reading fans nostaliga and fondness, rather than people saying they are great.

Just think Collins gets a raw deal. Not saying he beats either guy at their peaks, but it is absurd to suggest he wouldn't have a fair chance of stopping Benn.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:11 am

.... 168....

Think there is Calzaghe and Ward..............and then the rest...

Certainly have Eubank and Benn higher than Kessler...........

Think Mclellan was a wonderful win....Shame the victory euphoria was taken from him...

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:15 am

Imagine Benn vs Froch!

Would be a war, the cobra would smash him eventually.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:19 am

Have it pickem mate...............Eubank was better defensively than Froch......

Benn could bang............I don't see Froch lasting and coming back had Benn decked him in the first like Groves.....He didn't get his legs back till the 4th round..

On the other side If Froch withstood the early assault I can see him doing a Collins..

Think you undersell Benn a little mate.

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:21 am

That was one fight vs Groves. Froch wouldn't make that mistake vs Benn.

Eubank definitely could win. I think I would pick Froch to win on workrate but Eubank stands a great chance.

I always think Nigel was a bigger puncher at Middleweight. Froch is a stronger guy, he would bully him imo.

The McClellan win was great, but did he already have issue going into it?

Not sure, but Benn was fantastic that night.

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Post by Coxy001 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:58 am

AdamT wrote:They are not rated near as high as the UK.

Super Middle is a young divison, they won't be in top ten for long.

1.JC
2.Ward
3.Jones jr
4.Carl Froch

There are 4 guys that rank far ahead imo.

Not saying they aren't good fighters. Just not the God's they are potrayed to be on here by some.

FFs Coxy you don't rate Jones JR, so what would you know??

Says you who has a guy at number 3 who fought 6 times there and beat one notable opponent (granted he was the #1 P4P). And you, being smarted than me, would know that 168 is where the "reluctant Roy" nickname started. Yet you have him #3?

So yeah - FFS!!!

But anyway, lets not go down that route again shall we Truss? Whatever next, dragging us on to the Duran subject or some other 1980s fighter?

And bearing in mind they had one of the greatest all time rivalries that may be why they're held in such high regard on these shores. Then add in the fact Benn came through hell (and some more) against Americas next big thing, the fights with Eubank, Eubank's come from behind (tragic) victory against Watson, that Eubank gave all his guys hell and the fact they massively transcended the sport on these shores is probably why they're viewed as gods. American's like you still bang on about the golden 80s - we go vice a versa with Eubank and Watson. But saying "they're not rated all that highly" outside of these shores is pretty much wrong and a somewhat ignorant statement based on little fact.




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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:01 pm

I just finished the first couple paragraphs, will read the rest later.

If you read my posts, you will find I have a massive opinion on Duran.

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Post by Coxy001 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:26 pm

AdamT wrote:I just finished the first couple paragraphs, will read the rest later.

If you read my posts, you will find I have a massive hardon for Duran.

Fixed that for ya'! Wink

But back to Collins.

Never rated the guy as much as some and never give him much slack for when he fought Eubank & Benn. Benn was the more shot of the two, such is the way with a guy as loose as he was in terms of career longevity. Eubank was definitely more in his prime, but lest we forget that both fights were in Ireland and would've been interesting if they were on these shores.

Having never gone on to record another noteworthy win it's hard to give Collins much credit in my eyes, other than he beat a guy who was on the slide. People point to how much grief he gave JC and then Thompson (a natural CW who was massive compared to him) but in truth he only gave JC minor fits and the quote that JC believed it was his hardest fight smells a bit funny to me (potentially appeasing British fans and not alienating them etc.)... Would've thought that he'd have Reid as his #1 as he arguably lost to him. Thompson was a 20-5 sort of journeyman fighter as well, so although he put in two heroic performances he wasn't exactly fighting Holyfield @ 190 reincarnated.

Have Collins behind both Benn (by a small margin) and Eubank (by a wider margin) in the ATG SMW stakes.

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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:29 pm

I think Collins loses against peak Eubank, no doubt.

Also think he makes Nigel quit on his stool late!

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Post by jimdig Wed 02 Sep 2015, 9:23 pm

Did Collins get lucky? For sure, two domestic cash cows ready for plucking that he was allowed to beat twice each, for huge purses, at the end of a hard wearing career on the road, at home????? The guy must of thought he had 4 leaf clovers growing out of his jocks.

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Post by catchweight Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:48 pm

Eubank and Benn at their best would beat Collins but Collins was a more consistent performer who got the best out of himself more often.

Eubank looked finished to me as a fighter after the Watson fights. Gutsy, but physically and mentally drained. He had been threatning to drop a decision long before Collins. I dont think he was any better against Calzaghe or Thompson (didnt he take the Calzaghe fight at ten days notice and kill himself to hit weight?)

Collins was difficult to beat. He was thrown into a fight with McCallum after only 12 fights or something like that and aquitted himself pretty well (better than Watson did) so he was no slouch and might have been able to nick a win against anything other than a Benn or Eubank on their A game (which clesrly they werent when they did fight). Eubank was borderline lazy nd Benn prone to puching himself out which are dangerous against tough 12 round fighters like Collins who can go full pelt over the distance and take one to give two.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 10:53 pm

catchweight wrote:Eubank and Benn at their best would beat Collins but Collins was a more consistent performer who got the best out of himself more often.

Eubank looked finished to me as a fighter after the Watson fights. Gutsy, but physically and mentally drained. He had been threatning to drop a decision long before Collins. I dont think he was any better against Calzaghe or Thompson (didnt he take the Calzaghe fight at ten days notice and kill himself to hit weight?)

Collins was difficult to beat. He was thrown into a fight with McCallum after only 12 fights or something like that and aquitted himself pretty well (better than Watson did) so he was no slouch and might have been able to nick a win against anything other than a Benn or Eubank on their A game (which clesrly they werent when they did fight). Eubank was borderline lazy nd Benn prone to puching himself out which are dangerous against tough 12 round fighters like Collins who can go full pelt over the distance and take one to give two.

I agree with a lot of your post but I think with Watson and Collins against McCallum one has to remember that McCallum regarded the Watson fight as a war and remarked after retirement that Watson was the strongest fighter he ever faced and had huge respect...."Man he was strong..that's why that fight was so hard"...

It was a great fight..................Collins was more of a stroll.


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Post by AdamT Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:05 pm

Yeah McCallum beat Collins pretty handily. However he did say Collins had the best chin of any opponent.

He said Toney was tough, but Collins was on another level of toughness

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:12 pm

Chuvalo had a great chin..............But he didn't test Ali like Norton..

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:21 pm

By the letter of the law you probably have to say that Collins did better against McCallum than Watson did. I think you can make a case for Collins winning three rounds against McCallum. That's probably the same amount of rounds I'd give Watson in losing to Mike as well, but of course he didn't last the distance like Collins did. McCallum totally knocked Watson senseless by the end and subjected him to a horrible, horrible knockout, whereas he couldn't budge Collins.

But in Watson's defence, I think McCallum was in red-hot form when they fought, whereas he didn't put in one of his greater shifts against Collins, albeit he still fought well. The Watson fight was McCallum's best performance as a Middleweight by a mile (it's no secret that he wasn't as consistent at 160 as he'd been at 154). For me, in McCallum's whole career the only performance I've seen of his which betters the Watson one is the job he did on Milton McCrory.

Watson had a couple of moments (in terms of getting Mike's respect and landing eye-catching shots) and ended up getting chopped down after taking a hell of a lot of punishment against McCallum at his best, whereas Collins managed to go the distance and probably land just as many good shots, but in a scrappier fight and against a more workmanlike McCallum.

Never really thought there was much debate out it until Truss mentioned it above, and while I'll stay traditional and say that Collins made a slightly better fist of it, I can see why some would argue the opposite.
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Post by ShahenshahG Thu 03 Sep 2015, 6:58 am

Think chris was pretty spot on - a very big spot with lots of writing on it but yes he was lucky that he got Eubank when he did - I'm not sure a prime Benn would have been able to outlast him. I think the problem is that the most prominent parts of his career to us as brits were his wins over Eubank and Benn hence the perception that luck made his career.

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Post by hazharrison Thu 03 Sep 2015, 7:18 am

I think the less frenetic, cooler-headed Benn that campaigned under Jimmy Tibbs would have dealt with Collins fairly handily. Benn showed the ability to pace himself against the likes of Piper, Eubank and Wharton, so I don't imagine he'd have blown himself out against Collins.

For me, Benn was a level slightly above Collins. He was troubled more by stylists (Watson, Eubank, Malinga) than brawlers. His underrated boxing ability and power would allow him to punch out a well-earned decision.

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Post by AdamT Thu 03 Sep 2015, 7:44 am

He definitely could outbox Collins, but I have a feeling Steve could bully him. Collins was big and strong at the weight.

Collins far from a stylist, but he has a good amateur background and can box a little.

Not saying Collins definitely wins, but people are writing him off a little quick.

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Post by hazharrison Thu 03 Sep 2015, 8:24 am

AdamT wrote:He definitely could outbox Collins, but I have a feeling Steve could bully him. Collins was big and strong at the weight.

Collins far from a stylist, but he has a good amateur background and can box a little.

Not saying Collins definitely wins, but people are writing him off a little quick.

Like Benn, Collins came up to 168 from middleweight - I strongly doubt he'd have been able to bully a fully firing Dark Destroyer. Benn was tremendously strong (still is).

Benn was a former ABA champ - he also had a good amateur grounding.

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Post by ShahenshahG Thu 03 Sep 2015, 8:27 am

Aye possibly haz. Maybe holding the watson and eubank losses against him too much. Just can't get the image of him slapping Collins around for 6 rounds then running out of gas out of my mind

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