Did Steve Collins get lucky?

First topic message reminder :

I want to point out at the start i have full respect for Collins as a fight he no doubt is one tough S.O.B. However when lucking back at his career i can't help but feel he got lucky in regards to the timing of his most famous fights over this side of the pond.
Chris Eubank being a prime example. Although he deaerves credit for beating Eubank twice, there is no doubt that after the Watson fight Eubank was never the same. He had lost that killer instinct win at all cost attitude. Which is very understandable given what happened in that tragic fight.

Then we come the the Nigel Benn win. I do not see after the Mcclellan fight and all its brutality how any man could physically or mentally be the same. I believe Collins fought a shop worn Benn that night.

I also cannot let Collins off for ducking Joe Calzaghe. It was a total duck, i believe proven by the fact that during a Sky Sports super middleweight special a couple of years ago, with Collins, Calzaghe, Eubank, Woodhall and Roy Jones, Collins gave several different excuses as to why he did not take the fight with Joe.

What are your opinions on Steve Collins?

Collins was a very strong man. Not a devastating puncher, but strong in a clinch and coming forward.

Like I say guys, he wouldn't be favourite, but only a fool would suggest Collins hasn't a chance against Benn or Eubanks.

Not like they are as good as Roy Jones. I am not bashing Benn and Eubank, but Collins was a solid pro and was smarter than what people think.

It is great saying Eubank lost his edge. He probably did, but Collins took his zero, then BEAT him again. He deserves more credit than what he gets.

Maybe not for the Benn wins, but he definitely still deserves credit for Eubank. If Eubank didn't finish collins off, when he had the chance that is down to him.

10. Frankie Liles, 32-3 (19) - Did not exactly burst onto the super middleweight scene by defeating Steve Little, one of the weakest world champions ever, over 12 rounds in Argentina, of all places. Liles beats out prodigious waste of talent Michael Nunn by defeating Nunn head to head and he was a quality boxer, twice winning national amateur titles (285-14 record) and only a talent like Roy Jones was able to beat out Liles for a spot on the Olympic team. Liles showed mental toughness knocking out Tim Littles in his fourth title defense, avenging a previous unanimous decision loss. I give Liles a lot of credit for being a true world traveler, defending his title in Ecuador, Germany, England, Argentina and Puerto Rico. In all, Liles defended his WBA title seven times with the best name on the résumé being Nunn, followed by Segundo Mercado and Andrej Shkalikov. Was far ahead on the scorecards when Byron Mitchell landed a punch out of nowhere to send Liles to the canvas and win via TKO on the three-knockdown rule. The slick punching southpaw never recovered from the loss and only fought once more, losing via TKO to the average Demetrius Jenkins.

9. Mikkel Kessler, 45-2 (34) – The dangerous Dane possessed all the fundamentals and only lost to elite boxers in their primes who were also fighting in their hometowns. Like Frankie Liles, gets extra credit for his willingness to travel anywhere for a fight, making the first defense of his title in Australia against tough Anthony Mundine. Knocked out respectable Manny Siaca to win the title, making six defenses and knocking out five of those challengers. Unified the WBC and WBA title with stoppage of Markus Beyer and only sure Hall-of-Famer Joe Calzaghe was able to stop Kessler from adding the WBO title. Was handicapped by cuts against Andre Ward and Carl Froch but never slowed showing fighting spirit throughout. A consistently exciting fighter, his fights against Calzaghe and Kessler not only rate as two of the most important but also stirring fights in division history.

8. Chong Pal Park, 46-5-1 (39) - One of two Korean world super middleweight champions (the other was In-Chul Baek whom Park lost to in his final fight) and the first dominant champion in the division. Park was a good boxer/puncher who could mix it up when he needed to but preferred to work from the outside in, if given the opportunity, employing thuddingly accurate punches. Made eight defenses of the IBF title and then dropped the title in order to fight for and win the WBA title. Park defended the WBA title once before hard-hitting Venezuelan Fulgencio Obelmejias took his title via decision. One of the few Koreans to venture to America and escape with a win, defeating Vinnie Curto in Los Angeles. Defeated all-around boxer and former champion Lindell Holmes in a tough 15-round affair, as well as natural light heavyweight Murray Sutherland to kick off his first title reign. Retired at age 28, after two consecutive losses, knowing he had given everything in the ring.

7. James Toney, 74-7-3 (45) - This was the second of four weight divisions that Toney ate his way out of on his way to the heavyweight division. Won the IBF version by impressively knocking out Iran Barkley but lacked staying power, only making four defenses of the title. Toney is given some extra credit for keeping busy and contesting seven non-title bouts at super middleweight, defeating good names like Glenn Thomas and Anthony Hembrick. Best win at the weight came with an eye-opening knockout of former light heavyweight champion Prince Charles Williams, stealing the show that night from Oscar De la Hoya, who scored a dubious looking but legit kayo of Jorge Paez. Toney’s noncompetitive loss against Roy Jones came at super middleweight as well, which devalues Toney’s legacy at the weight. Overall, a good championship reign in which Toney handed Tim Littles his first pro defeat and also outboxed Tony Thornton.

6. Nigel Benn, 42-5-1 (35) – There was no more exciting European fighter (and perhaps the world) from the late-1980s to the late-1990s than the fearsome Benn. He truly earned the “Dark Destroyer” nickname. Benn’s first 23 fights ended in a kayo (one way or the other) and despite an all-in style, made nine successful defenses of the WBC title, including his legendary tilt against Gerald McClellan. In the McClellan war, Benn showed valor beyond the call of duty, climbing back into the very ring he had been knocked out of. A lack of credible challengers other than Chris Eubank does hurt Benn’s standing but he makes up for it in terms of fan appeal. Also, has a good body of work at middleweight, including a first round kayo of the usually durable Iran Barkley. Fans on both sides of the Atlantic were clamoring for Benn to fight Roy Jones but the fight never materialized…though there is no doubt it was not because Benn was not willing.

5. Chris Eubank, 45-5-2 (23) – Cocky Englishman’s nickname was “Simply the Best” and Eubank was not that far away from being the best ever at super middle. I still maintain that during Roy Jones’ prime years, Eubank was the only fighter who had the style to challenge him, given Eubank’s patience and equal mindset to Jones. “Quirky” would be the best word used to describe Eubank’s behavior in and out of the ring. Sadly, Eubank lost much of his aggression and killer instinct after his fight with Michael Watson, who nearly died of brain injuries suffered during their bout. Eubank often talked of his love/hate affair with boxing and it is a shame he never totally committed himself to the sport, mentally. Even so, he reeled off 14 successful defenses of the WBO title and some believe he should have won the WBC version but had to settle for a draw against rival Nigel Benn. A hot-and-cold fighter who had a tendency to fight up or down to the level of his opposition, which usually made for interesting viewing.

4. Roy Jones, 55-8 (40) – If this list were based on talent and athletic ability alone, Jones would rate at the top but other considerations have to be made in his case. This was the division in which Roy Jones should have cemented his legacy as one of the greatest fighters of all time. However, his refusal to travel overseas and fight Eubank, Benn or Steve Collins hurt his reputation. There were no excuses since economics dictated that Europe is where the money was to be made and none of the potential opponents were under the control of Don King. 168 pounds is where the “Reluctant Roy” tag was first generated. On the positive side, Roy dominated James Toney at super middle- in his debut no less- and made five defenses of the title. Another positive is that all his title defenses came via knockout, to include Vinny Pazienza, tough-as-nails Merqui Sosa and underrated Eric Lucas. Jones probably could have stayed at super middle longer but after two years, he ran out of North American opponents.

3. Sven Ottke, 34-0 (6) – It is hard to argue against perfection, as anyone who has ever debated a Rocky Marciano or Floyd Mayweather Jr. fan can attest to. Yes, Ottke had less power than a Toyota Prius (only six career kayos) but he was one heck of a smart boxer who might have been the best judge of distance from 1998 to 2004. Those who sat through his fights are impressed by instincts and footwork that allowed Ottke to beat opponents to the point of engagement and land first. Let’s not forget that the one time Ottke really needed to show stopping power, hopelessly behind against Anthony Mundine, he unleashed a right hand that knocked Mundine unconscious. Still shares a division record 21 title defenses with Joe Calzaghe that is not likely to be challenged for some time, annexing the WBA title and defending it four times. Sure, there were some controversial decisions that went in his favor (heck, his title-winning effort against Charles Brewer was close) but name a champion who reigned for six years who did not have any close decisions go his way?

2. Steve Collins, 36-3 (21) – Talk about overlooked- and not just by Roy Jones, who ignored Collins’ challenges. The Irishman hurt himself cutting pounds to make middleweight, losing two title shots at 160 pounds. Found himself at 168 and gets massive credit for twice besting Chris Eubank and Nigel Benn in title fights. Granted, both men were nearing the end of their careers but so was Collins. Also, let’s not forget that he retired as a champion, undefeated in his last 15 fights, of which eight were title defenses. In fact, Collins never lost at super middleweight. The only man to ever outclass Collins was a prime Mike McCallum and his other two decision losses were of the majority version on foreign shores. Can’t say Collins dazzled in any one skill department but always gave 100% and forced his opponents into brawls by using lateral movement to stay on top of them forcing exchanges. Collins’ first fight with Eubank is a classic and he was generally in fun tilts. The epitome of a hardheaded Irishman.

1. Joe Calzaghe, 46-0 (32) – Early on, Calzaghe’s career seems cursed by injury and poor timing that caused big fights to fall out but he proved his worth late, besting Hall-of-Famers Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones. A superb boxer whose only real rival at the weight during his prime was German Sven Ottke. One has the feeling that Calzaghe’s edge in power could have been the deciding factor in a mythical Calzaghe - Ottke matchup. Too bad Calzaghe never got a chance to face Steve Collins, whose vacated title he won; it remains the only scalp to elude the Welshman. Just another case of early missed opportunity, I suppose, and Calzaghe otherwise did his best to get credible opposition in the ring. Showed he was the best of his era- and as it turned out, ever- by defeating the divergent styles of Mikkel Kessler, Chris Eubank, Mario Veit and Jeff Lacy. Along with Ottke, is one of the few boxers to ever retire as an undefeated champion. It took the Hopkins and Jones wins at light heavyweight for America to recognize Calzaghe for what he was: the best ever at super middleweight!

Interesting list Adam. Who's is it? And are they back on their meds now?

Know alot more than you or me anyway mate. The list aside, Collins still at least should be ranked alongside the YOUNGER Eubank and Benn.

That list is horrendous.

The list might be sh1te but not every so called jornalist,fan rates the Mighty Eubank, or Benn higher. There are more lists but can't be ar.ed to go down that road.

Everyone in the Uk rates Eubank and Benn higher, other parts of the world have the 3 rated similary, were they belong.

Stop being biased and realise Collins is also a 2 weight world Champion and fought good fighters at the start of his career. Only McCallum outclassed him and he was never stopped.

He is the same age as Benn (granted Benn was shopworn, I can't deny that) and lot older than Eubank. He beat both twice.

Do you guys count Hattons wins agains Tszyu and Castillo? I do but if you guys do, you are major hypocrites. Tszyu was inactive and old.

ShahenshahG wrote:Aye possibly haz. Maybe holding the watson and eubank losses against him too much. Just can't get the image of him slapping Collins around for 6 rounds then running out of gas out of my mind

He was little more than a novice against Watson - he'd recorded mostly quick knockouts on his way up. He was extremely tight at the weight against Eubank (they both were to be fair).

His stamina wasn't an issue at 168.

AdamT wrote:Know alot more than you or me anyway mate. The list aside, Collins still at least should be ranked alongside the YOUNGER Eubank and Benn.

Adam, Has this forum not taught you that you can have all the knowledge in the world but understand nothing. Few people could match d4's knowledge of pacquaio! 

I make no claims to be an authority but I'll put my understanding of boxing against anyone who has Sven ottke that high on any super middle list 'those who sat through his fights' ... It would seem the author clearly wasn't one of them. I had the misfortune of watching plenty of them. He was deceptive and he wasn't useless, but he was the definitive homey protected fighter.  I'm not going there with Collins, I've already said earlier that he gets a bit of a raw deal.

For a truss alias, quoting selective experts (to back up your opinion) is very haz-like.  

Are you a double bluff!

I have learned from the masters Milky!

Did Steve Collins get luck? Probably the Irish are famed for it.

Oh, and re Hatton... tszyu was great matchmaking from warren. Right time, at home... Against a great so a defeat would have been acceptable. Castillo was hand picked as he'd looked awful in getting a dubious decision last time out, and was a marketing comparable for selling the Floyd fight.

The tszyu win has a caveat but was still a good win. The Castillo win counts nothing towards Hatton's legacy.

milkyboy wrote:Oh, and re Hatton... tszyu was great matchmaking from warren. Right time, at home... Against a great so a defeat would have been acceptable. Castillo was hand picked as he'd looked awful in getting a dubious decision last time out, and was a marketing comparable for selling the Floyd fight.

The tszyu win has a caveat but was still a good win. The Castillo win counts nothing towards Hatton's legacy.

Fair point, then why is he rated so highly? He has some good wins, but nothing special. Floyd took the hand out of him and Pacquiao swatted him like a fly.

Is it because he is likeable? Don't get me wrong he was a very solid fighter and had a good record leading up to Floyd, but he is overrated.

Or if he isn't overrated, then someone like Steve Collins must be underrated.

I don't mind people rating fighters like Collins low. That is fair enough, but please be consistent. Because we can pick holes in a lot of peoples record. Collins best wins are apparently past their primes. So were Hattons.

Milky is the be all and end all now...when it comes to deciding what should be on a fighter's legacy..

Hugh McIlvanney move over..

Sorry for Ricky bashing, but I could easily start an article, "Was Ricky lucky to avoid Cotto, or fight Tszyu when he did?"

If I did, no doubt you guys would throw all sorts of abuse at it.

Nah truss, I still can't spot a silent beating. Would you like to argue with me on how good the tszyu win was for Hatton again, whilst simultaneously arguing on another thread that all fighters are shot at 35;)

Adam, hypocrisy rules. 

Personally, I think Hatton was brilliantly managed and didn't take a risk his entire career... Until the money couldn't be refused. Hey, everyone does it, but few got as much credit for it as Ricky.

Tszyu wasn't shot mate. Just over the hill slightly and inactive. He would of beat Hatton in his prime.

I still give Hatton credit, same as I give Collins credit for his wins.

I think Hatton would always have beaten Tszyu........For sure Kosta had seen better days but Hatton took his best shot and just wanted it more........

Think Ricky had the strongest will and a fight with them would always come down to that....

A style thing....Kosta was the better fighter but Ricky was all wrong for him...

I think if Hatton wasn't allowed to wrestle so much, Tszyu could of won. I definitely pick Tszyu mate.

It is all about opinions.

A style thing....Kosta was the better fighter but Ricky was all wrong for him...

That for me is how I see collins and Benn.

The worst thing about Ricky was his defending that WBU world title about fifty times before he fought anybody...

Warren and milking.....

Same with Joe wasn't it..............Both had to leave before it became too embarrassing.

Yeah fair play to them for doing it. Joe should have done it sooner. Warren is a disgrace.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The worst thing about Ricky was his defending that WBU world title about fifty times before he fought anybody...

Warren and milking.....

Same with Joe wasn't it..............Both had to leave before it became too embarrassing.

indeed, though ironically you could argue that ricky left after frank had finally delivered, calzaghe left and then took his most embarassing pay day!

AdamT wrote:Sorry for Ricky bashing, but I could easily start an article, "Was Ricky lucky to avoid Cotto, or fight Tszyu when he did?"

If I did, no doubt you guys would throw all sorts of abuse at it.

I wouldn't throw any abuse your way. Most likely I would agree with every word you said.

He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

He may be a national treasure Adam, but many on here are pretty objective on him.

So far, you're not getting quite the love-in for benn, eubank and hatton you were expecting. Maybe as a group we're broadly objective  and not too nationalistic. Maybe we all do genuinely think collins was a bit sh*t and it has nothing to do with his being Irish

Poor old strongy.......Reading us trashing his hero...and with no right to reply..

Still I'm sure his recent purchase of a golf course in Atlanta, Georgia may calm him down...

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old strongy.......Reading us trashing his hero...and with no right to reply..

Still I'm sure his recent purchase of a golf course in Atlanta, Georgia may calm him down...

Can someone shed some light as to if he got banned?! The suspense is killing me!

If Collins needed the luck of the Irish to beat Eubank then I've no idea what Fury needs to beat Wlad... A gun?

He is not banned.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old strongy.......Reading us trashing his hero...and with no right to reply..

Still I'm sure his recent purchase of a golf course in Atlanta, Georgia may calm him down...

I think his mum grounded him and took his internet away

...bit less sinister than all that. His new job as PR director at matchroom just leaves him little time to post.

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

Coxy001 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old strongy.......Reading us trashing his hero...and with no right to reply..

Still I'm sure his recent purchase of a golf course in Atlanta, Georgia may calm him down...

Can someone shed some light as to if he got banned?! The suspense is killing me!

If Collins needed the luck of the Irish to beat Eubank then I've no idea what Fury needs to beat Wlad... A gun?

Banning is a subject close to your heart I imagine...

Which reminds me I've not had my daily final warning yet...

AdamT wrote:

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

mayweather's hands have never been the same since that fight, manny's shoulder injuries are also said to derive from his fight with hatton. Ricky's strategy of head-butting their fists, which he followed religiously throughout the fights, was closer to coming off than some realise..

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

mayweather's hands have never been the same since that fight, manny's shoulder injuries are also said to derive from his fight with hatton. Ricky's strategy of head-butting their fists, which he followed religiously throughout the fights, was closer to coming off than some realise..

I agree Milky. Hatton had been their downfall.

AdamT wrote:

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

If it wasn't for the referee Cortez, not allowing Ricky to wrestle, Ricky would have won that fight easily and don't forget Ricky was winning the fight with Pacquiao by a mile until he got caught.

Such a shame Ricky was born so late. Would have been great to have seem him fight during the early 80's against Leonard, Hearns and Duran.

AdamT wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

mayweather's hands have never been the same since that fight, manny's shoulder injuries are also said to derive from his fight with hatton. Ricky's strategy of head-butting their fists, which he followed religiously throughout the fights, was closer to coming off than some realise..

I agree Milky. Hatton had been their downfall.

He took a long term position Adam... they're crippled and Ricky got out at the top, free to eat pies and swill ale all day. He who laughs last and all that.

Fantastic Atila. He should of been allowed to wrestle.

That night in manchester, I bet if he cut Kostya's throat he would of maybe only got a point took of him.

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Atila wrote:

AdamT wrote:He is a national treasure, mate so will leave him be.

Never understood the attraction or the hype.

You do know he gave Mayweather the fight of his life and once rocked Manny's head back??

mayweather's hands have never been the same since that fight, manny's shoulder injuries are also said to derive from his fight with hatton. Ricky's strategy of head-butting their fists, which he followed religiously throughout the fights, was closer to coming off than some realise..

I agree Milky. Hatton had been their downfall.

He took a long term position Adam... they're crippled and Ricky got out at the top, free to eat pies and swill ale all day. He who laughs last and all that.

He could come back and fight Naz for the heavyweight crown of Britain.

I would imagine Hatton would have a healthy bank balance, so is probably laughing a lot more than others.

Hatton had the bottle to get in with the ring with the 2 best fighters in the world, yep soundly beaten by both, and Hatton must have just got lucky in his other 40 odd wins.

Its noticeable that since Mayweather beat Hatton, he isn't the same fighter and now only manages to win 11 out of 12 rounds.

Funny how a debate about Steve Collins involves Hatton, Ricky is renowned for putting on weight but I can't remember him fighting at super middle.

AdamT wrote:Fantastic Atila. He should of been allowed to wrestle.

That night in manchester, I bet if he cut Kostya's throat he would of maybe only got a point took of him.

They say they hit'em with everything barring the corner stool.... Pretty sure in Manchester against KT he could've whacked him with that and got away with it.

Still makes me chuckle that HBO/SKY had him 1 round up after 5 against FMJ (think Sky may have had him level). Can't remember the scorecard Jim Watt had for the Pacquiao, probably had the second round 10-5 for Hatton.

Perhaps because loads bash Steve for fighting big name guys past their best when he was the same age.

don't want to be rude mate, but fighting Mayweather and Pacquiao was like winning the lottery. He had nothing to lose. If he wanted to be commended he should of gave Witter his shot.

Coxy001 wrote:

AdamT wrote:Fantastic Atila. He should of been allowed to wrestle.

That night in manchester, I bet if he cut Kostya's throat he would of maybe only got a point took of him.

They say they hit'em with everything barring the corner stool.... Pretty sure in Manchester against KT he could've whacked him with that and got away with it.

Still makes me chuckle that HBO/SKY had him 1 round up after 5 against FMJ (think Sky may have had him level). Can't remember the scorecard Jim Watt had for the Pacquiao, probably had the second round 10-5 for Hatton.

Maybe my post's don't suggest this, but I like Ricky. Just think loads of casual fans haven't a clue. A few months after the fight, a couple of mates of mine mentioned the time Mayweather got wobbled. They said Hatton floored him (he didn't) and Cortez stopped him from winning.

Jim Watt hat Hatton up 10 rounds before the stoppage in the second.

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:Know alot more than you or me anyway mate. The list aside, Collins still at least should be ranked alongside the YOUNGER Eubank and Benn.

Adam, Has this forum not taught you that you can have all the knowledge in the world but understand nothing. Few people could match d4's knowledge of pacquaio! 

I make no claims to be an authority but I'll put my understanding of boxing against anyone who has Sven ottke that high on any super middle list 'those who sat through his fights' ... It would seem the author clearly wasn't one of them. I had the misfortune of watching plenty of them. He was deceptive and he wasn't useless, but he was the definitive homey protected fighter.  I'm not going there with Collins, I've already said earlier that he gets a bit of a raw deal.

For a truss alias, quoting selective experts (to back up your opinion) is very haz-like.  

Are you a double bluff!

I suppose I should quote an opinion that defeats the argument I'm attempting to make? Crackers this place.

Haz it really is the nut house today and I'm the biggest lunatic available. Bored at work!