Should Bath/Sarries players be expelled from RWC squads...

... for being complicit in AP salary cap cheating?
All nations, or just England, or none at all?

None at all.

Dock/Sarries points and/or exclude them from the playoffs. It's club rugby issue not an international one. It's also a club issue not a player issue (i.e. the clubs have defrauded the system.

RFU have taken a policy decision to not select players who take the Euros - Armitagex2, Abendenan, Flood, etc in order to support PRL. PRL have let them down, should they not extend their non-selection policy to the cheaters?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:RFU have taken a policy decision to not select players who take the Euros - Armitagex2, Abendenan, Flood, etc in order to support PRL. PRL have let them down, should they not extend their non-selection policy to the cheaters?

I'm not sure I agree. I think the RFU decision not to select French based players is primarily to support the PRL. I think the primary motive is to protect the English team and the value of the English jersey. To compete internationally you have to have access to players for training, for games and hopefully you integrate the needs of the national team into their training. England rugby has an agreement with the PRL. You don't necessarily get this for English players playing in French clubs. In NZ most our sports are in this situation. You don't get access or availability. You can see the same issue with rugby with most nations.

How have the players made a choice to cheat though?

French based players select money over international honours, and thats their choice, players who have stayed at these clubs have done so to build their careers and compete internationally.

Did Bath and Sarries say 'Hey look, we're breaking rules by signing you, but turn a blind eye and theres a lolly pop in it for you'?

Is the salary cap enforced by world rugby? Or is by the AP themselves.

Why not ask, should we ban the springboks for choosing players purely based upon the colour of the skin.

We did in the 1970s-80s.

It's the Prem who brought in the cap. The SA thing is totally different now fa as was discussed in detail.

Umm No. Next.

From the rugby paper


"Premier Rugby is run by a small cartel of clubs and the other clubs are being blackmailed and bullied into not voting against them," a source told the Rugby Paper.
"The whole thing stinks.
"They will get let off because clubs don’t want the bad publicity in case it upsets the sponsors and broadcasters. Some of these clubs are run by very successful men who are used to getting their own way and this isn’t any different.
"It is no wonder that the club game in this country never moves forward.
"It’s a closed shop with a few clubs making the decisions."

It was shameful that the other clubs agreed to suspend the investigation into salary cap breaches.

Can't pretend anyone is serious about it now.

Sucks, there is a thread on the clubs section about it. In relation to this thread no the players shouldn't be punished for their clubs (deiberate?) mistakes.

maestegmafia wrote:From the rugby paper


"Premier Rugby is run by a small cartel of clubs and the other clubs are being blackmailed and bullied into not voting against them," a source told the Rugby Paper.
"The whole thing stinks.
"They will get let off because clubs don’t want the bad publicity in case it upsets the sponsors and broadcasters. Some of these clubs are run by very successful men who are used to getting their own way and this isn’t any different.
"It is no wonder that the club game in this country never moves forward.
"It’s a closed shop with a  few clubs making the decisions."

And yet it was the smaller clubs who have been enforcing the salary cap in the first place. Hard to bully the majority surely?

There's very little no balance. No understanding of the people at the heart of it.



"They include one club demanding that another drop any interest they have in signing one of their star names, who is out of contract next summer; while a cartel of clubs are threatening to block any other commercial deals as well as plans to ring fence promotion and relegation unless they get their way."



I expect the first club is Leicester, the 2nd is Saracens and the star name is Manu Tuilagi. As for the so called cartel of clubs - hard to know.

Is this all being hushed up as its a WC year? And then its likely to blow up the following season?
I'm just wondering if the offending clubs have kind of been given a seasons grace to get their houses in order before things become public!

propdavid london perhaps we'll see. I think it would make sense to do it that way.

Seems unlikely. The punishments are about 40 points a season. I just don't see it happening. Why bring in a rule to pick and choose when to apply it?

I agree but its all PR stuff to avoid bad press over the WC.
In the past teams have been severely punished for admin errors like feilding inelligable players etc. There is definately different rules for the boys going on.

Because of timing. Doing it during the RWC is the wrong time IMO.

A -40 points to Bath and Saracens during next season would significantly help Worcester,LI and Newcastle.

Surely the most important thing for you guys is that Bath and Saracens get punishment and an acknowledgement of their guilt?

beshocked wrote:Because of timing. Doing it during the RWC is the wrong time IMO.

A -40 points to Bath and Saracens during next season would significantly help Worcester,LI and Newcastle.

Surely the most important thing for you guys is that Bath and Saracens get punishment and an acknowledgement of their guilt?

No, it's that they deal out the punishment as written in the rules and not decide how and when to apply them to suit.

What amazes me is that no football journos have got wind of this, you'd fhibk they'd love a chance to highlight rugbys failings. But the press just seem to have turned a blind eye.

No, the players shouldn't be expelled because it's a PRL rule that the PRL have decided not to enforce (for whatever reason).

If what has been suggested is true, it sticks. The idea of PR during a World Cup year is largely cowpat when this makes them look worse! Instead of two teams that everyone knows are breaching the cap (in spirit even if they thought they were ok technically) getting the punishment they agreed to, we have a big cover up where the rules are avoided or ignored and kept purely in a sham of sustainability. Much better.

And for bullying the majority, that's easy when you need unanimous approval for commercial contracts and the 'bullies' don't run a viable company and don't really give a Poopie, where as the ones trying to do something good for the long get bent over.

Not sure when the next PRL extension but perhaps the only solution is to not renew it and form a separate group. Let Sarries and Bath sort themselves out. Perhaps the RFU will let them play the French rather than just themselves.

As for delaying the investigation, I don't have too big of an issue with that if it was because they would have had to do a rush job to meet the deadline. Then I would question why it was running so late.

None at all, as the cheating is not proven, nor the nations or even possibly the players fault. If they were to banned, there is no sane justification for trying to imply only english players should be banned, that bit of the OP is clearly designed to be inflammatory

Scottrf wrote:It was shameful that the other clubs agreed to suspend the investigation into salary cap breaches.

Can't pretend anyone is serious about it now.

Not every club voted to suspend the investigation, some voted to continue with it but were overruled by majority

Has there been any new news on this subject?  Or status quo since February?  

If no change in what we know, then why bring it up now?  If there is news, what is it?  

Clearly, if clubs have transgressed, then they should deal with the ramafications of their actions.  Club management should bear the brunt of sanctions.  If agents conspired with the clubs for offshore payments, etc., then they should be barred from representing players in the Premiership.

Doc,

Formal PRL meeting today to rubber stamp things for the season ahead. The information being leaked out by various parties with reference to negotiations obver the last week is that the two partially named teams being investigated have been found well in excess of the cap by the investigating officer, but that the whole process will be "quietly" dropped.

full details over on club board.

Well in excess but the issue will be dropped?
That is not good.
I will pop over to the other side. I presume the club boards have been pretty quiet lately - this should light things up like Bonfire Night fireworks.

Nothing about this in most of the media yet - but found this:
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/23464/exclusive-premiership-salary-cap-breaches-will-go-unpunished/
Seems like a huge scandal being brushed under the carpet by not only PRL but the media. Almost difficult to believe in fact. How is this not front page sports news?

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:From the rugby paper


"Premier Rugby is run by a small cartel of clubs and the other clubs are being blackmailed and bullied into not voting against them," a source told the Rugby Paper.
"The whole thing stinks.
"They will get let off because clubs don’t want the bad publicity in case it upsets the sponsors and broadcasters. Some of these clubs are run by very successful men who are used to getting their own way and this isn’t any different.
"It is no wonder that the club game in this country never moves forward.
"It’s a closed shop with a  few clubs making the decisions."

And yet it was the smaller clubs who have been enforcing the salary cap in the first place. Hard to bully the majority surely?

There's very little no balance. No understanding of the people at the heart of it.



"They include one club demanding that another drop any interest they have in signing one of their star names, who is out of contract next summer; while a cartel of clubs are threatening to block any other commercial deals as well as plans to ring fence promotion and relegation unless they get their way."



I expect the first club is Leicester, the 2nd is Saracens and the star name is Manu Tuilagi. As for the so called cartel of clubs - hard to know.

Its also the big clubs (PRL) which is maintianing the AP as a league of 12. Had the RFU had its way it wouldve been cut to 8 or 10 a long time ago.