Is Degale v Groves still a stadium fight ????

I've only seen highlights of Groves-Jack........But he seems to be more ponderous and has seemingly lost some speed.......He's also 2-3 ....

I think he's showing signs of sliding.........All his fights post Froch he's looked a different fighter and I'd pick Callum Smith and Degale to beat him....Degale probably inside the distance...

Is there still great interest for this ??................They were talking Wembley....Is it a stadium fight ???

I'm afraid this fight doesn't really get my blood up.............Not like Brook v Khan....

Did Groves lose more than a fight ??.......Or are you still salivating for this one ??

I'm not that fussed about it anymore but I'm sure if Hearn can make so much money out of Clev and Bellew because of the 'bad blood' angle then I'm sure with the Sky hype machine he could make this into a 'mega event'. I don't think it should be at Wembley

It’s a tougher sell for sure Truss. Firstly and most obviously the unification angle has gone which would have obviously made the fight more marketable. Also think opinion has really shifted in terms of how people view the fight, looking at the comments on here and other parts of the internet it appears what was perceived as a 50-50 fight some time ago is not seen as a walkover for Degale but he appears to be a warm favourite in most people’s eyes. If you remove genuine doubt over the outcome and the chance for one of them to unify the belts two of the big selling points for the fight are gone. Also in storming out of the ring and acting pretty gracelessly after the fight Groves has made himself a slightly tougher sell.
 
Also, as I mentioned on a previous thread this has arguably become a harder fight to make. Degale now holds pretty much all the chips, he has the belt, he has the current form, he has the public goodwill. Are Groves and Sauderland likely to sit round the negotiating table in full appreciation of all this and accept what they are sure to be offered, such as short end of the purse, rematch clauses, no veto on judges and all the other things the champion can stick them with. My instinct would tell me not.

Not now it isn't.

Degale beats him now. Groves hasn't been the same.

No.

Rowley wrote:
 
Also, as I mentioned on a previous thread this has arguably become a harder fight to make. Degale now holds pretty much all the chips, he has the belt, he has the current form, he has the public goodwill. Are Groves and Sauderland likely to sit round the negotiating table in full appreciation of all this and accept what they are sure to be offered, such as short end of the purse, rematch clauses, no veto on judges and all the other things the champion can stick them with. My instinct would tell me not.

Very true...Groves does seem to see himself as a stadium fighter and a bigger fish than Degale..........

Whilst Froch and Groves did sell big at Wembley...Has to be said the whole controversial ending of the first fight really elevated the fight into a bit of a one off...

Not sure Groves "sees" that..

Groves is far form a stadium fighter.

Froch was the draw and bad blood mixed with controversial ending, sold the fight at Wembley.

Callum Smith beats George now as well. Groves is finished as a top fighter in my opinion.

I don't want to write the kid off at 27, on the back of a close loss overseas, but what he has left and what he can argue at the negotiating table are two very different things. From the perspective of the Degale camp Groves is a guy who has lost the three times he has stepped into world class and as such should be grateful another opportunity at a world title is coming his way. You'd think they would really stick it to him in terms of the contract on offer.

He just hasn't looked the same. Boxing isn't tennis, you don't play it.

Very hard to get that confidence back.

To be fair, he lost a very close fight. Or at least close by most estimates. Maybe, just maybe, Badou Jack is better than people thought? He's now beaten Dirrell and Groves. Groves is only 27, he'll come again

I agree he has something to offer still but at what level ??...........He reminds me of Curry post splat against Mccallum.....The magic has gone....

Mentioned yesterday that a crushing kayo can damage a fighter.......Perhaps subconsciously holding back or just losing you a yard of speed...

Three fights now he's looked quite shopworn,......

Don't think it's confidence................Unfortunately..

Never really cared much for Groves to be honest. Don't hate him,but thought he was a vvanker in the lead up to the Froch fight.

Depends

Can Groves and Degale ''sell'' the fight good enough?

Only full time fans like ourselves will know that had Groves won it would have lined up a perfect unification/rematch with Degale. Moderate fans will not see the significance of the belts but will be sold on the charactors and build up.

So basically Hearn's got to earn his bread to get this one to fill a stadium.

I'm not sure degale would want to push the argument that groves loses whenever he fights world class opposition as it implies degale himself isn't world class.

There's still definitely an angle to sell this, but it doesn't sell itself as it would have done as a unification fight. Good luck if they can fill a stadium with it.

On Groves last 2 performances not a stadium fight for me, Groves has been poor, should be beating Jack no excuses.

I would have thought the fights with Froch would have given Groves the world class experience that you need to improve, but it hasn't been the case.

Groves defence is ragged and he seems vulnerable to being caught by right hands, drops his left hand too low at times, this needs ironing out, doesn't look like his present trainer has been able to sort it.

Groves has always had good boxing skills,(has a quality jab) showed this against Degale and Froch 1, perhaps Groves 1st round success against an iron chinned Froch has gone to his head and he is neglecting his boxing skills for power, tends to throw a lot of wasteful tiring heavy leather rather than box his way in and then let his shots go.

I think Groves will seek a new trainer in the coming weeks if not I can see him being a could have been, unfortunately.

Some good points nico... The punch stats in terms of accuracy would have you believing that groves was wild and jack was the precise boxer of the two.

Infact jack's issue is output... It was a similar story in his draw with periban.... His precision against periban' output.

kingraf wrote:To be fair, he lost a very close fight. Or at least close by most estimates. Maybe, just maybe, Badou Jack is better than people thought? He's now beaten Dirrell and Groves. Groves is only 27, he'll come again

Good post.

It seems odd to me to write off a guy who's only 27 and whose had only 24 fights. If Groves is already finished then he wasn't meant to be a fighter at all.

That's just baloney.............Plenty of talented young fighters don't come back from a devastating loss history is full of them...

Oscar Rivadenya, Tyrone Crawley, Robin Blake to name three etc....Look them up If you haven't heard of them.

How old was Naseem Hamed 27/28 ??

Not baloney at all. Maybe all those talented, young fighters that you mention shouldn't have been fighters either. There's more to being a talented fighter than just looking good beating over matched fighters.

I'd hate to have seen Groves fight in the old days when 24 fights would have only got him a fight for the British title if he's done already.

I would expect a rematch to be pretty cagey and somewhat dull affair. I too would be far more excited to see Khan and Brook get it on.

The fight has certainly lost something. I reckon it earns 20 to 30% less now than it did last week.  Question is for Hearn, do you take it now as still a very marketable fight or do you risk letting Groves do some rebuilding work? Groves has always been a risky fighter. Another loss could be very damaging.  

One thing is certain, DeGale takes it at a drop of a hat. He wants the win on his record. I also fear he might get some awful defences lined up  over the next couple of years, same as Brook

Atila wrote:Not baloney at all. Maybe all those talented, young fighters that you mention shouldn't have been fighters either. There's more to being a talented fighter than just looking good beating over matched fighters.

I'd hate to have seen Groves fight in the old days when 24 fights would have only got him a fight for the British title if he's done already.

What we know is that they were never the same after being beat...Physically or/and mentally...........

Takes a toll a heavy knockout.............Look at Marciano - Walcott 2...

It does take it's toll. That's why for all his faults, Wlad should get some credit.

Khan as well.

If a KO defeat is all it takes to derail a fighter, then maybe they should find another way to make a living. I watched Dennis Andries take a pummeling from Tommy Hearns, but he came back to win the WBC 2 more times.
If we accept that Groves is damaged goods, we have to also accept that he has good skills but doesn't have the toughness that is needed to really be a top fighter.

Some fighters are mentally and physically stronger than others....It goes without saying......

A devastating kayo might have an impact on the reflexes, the senses as well as the confidence......Can make you gunshy.......or have no effect like Andries.

I read Errol Christie's book..............He was devastated after Mark Kaylor and sat in a darkened room for over a week...

Boxing isn't like other sports..............When you get beat.. You not only lose your status ...You lose your self esteem, Your marketability and most of all have your person violated....

In other sports they have another tournament the next week...

Anyone who's lost a fight knows there is more to it than ....Oh dear..

The margins in sport at the top level are very small and confidence is everything. Fighters will buy into any excuse for a defeat to still believe in themselves. Once their self belief has gone, it can't be easy to go to the well again. 

Bottom line is some guys are never the same after a knockout and/or heavy defeat. Some are able to come back as if it never happened. Jack got sparked by Edwards inside a round and has come back to give his best two performances. Duran got rolled like a drunk, but still had it.

For every one of them, there's at least one curry/Taylor. 

It's too early to write groves off... By all accounts he put in a gutsy performance, but for one reason or another he hasn't looked his sharpest since the froch fight.

As I said earlier, the question remains whether froch's style/age flattered him a bit. Maybe this is just his level, but he does, to me, look off the pace he was once at. It's hard to tell though to be honest.

Lennox had the balls to beat the guys that beat him.

Big respect for that.

I'm not writing Groves off at all. But I am saying that if he's already lost his confidence, then maybe he doesn't have it in him to be a top fighter. Some more fights to regain his confidence maybe? He's only 27.

Oh, and thanks Truss for telling me that some fighters are tougher than others, I would never have thought of that.

If you look at the punch stats for Groves, Jack its alarming, Groves threw721and landed 154, Jack threw 506 and lands 210.
To throw so many punches and land so little that is shocking statistics, Jack isn't exactly Willie Pep.

Groves needs someone to sit down and give him a reality check.

I agree with Truss about some fighters not getting over a devastating KO, but I'm hoping this hasn't happened to Groves, and he can come back.

Part of me is glad Groves vs Degale is now a much tougher sell.

Hopefully promoters and fighters will stop trying to build a fight for 12-18 months and just strike while the irons hot and make the fight while the fans want it. Look at Price and Fury, both could have made a massive purse on that one. Gamboa vs Juan Manuel Lopez was the fight everyone who follows the lower divisions wanted a few years ago, missed the boat on that one. I think Khan vs Brook will go the same way unfortunately as Khan is hardly bulletproof and is in danger of losing whenever he fights a puncher. One fight can seriously change the shape of a whole division so promoters need to make these fights while they make sense, might actually generate some new paying fans as well so the sport isn't marginalised any further.

bellchees wrote:Part of me is glad Groves vs Degale is now a much tougher sell.

Hopefully promoters and fighters will stop trying to build a fight for 12-18 months and just strike while the irons hot and make the fight while the fans want it. Look at Price and Fury, both could have made a massive purse on that one. Gamboa vs Juan Manuel Lopez was the fight everyone who follows the lower divisions wanted a few years ago, missed the boat on that one. I think Khan vs Brook will go the same way unfortunately as Khan is hardly bulletproof and is in danger of losing whenever he fights a puncher. One fight can seriously change the shape of a whole division so promoters need to make these fights while they make sense, might actually generate some new paying fans as well so the sport isn't marginalised any further.

Great post and agree with every word.


Have to disagree with you fellas that think Smith beats Groves though. Far too early to call that one seeing as Callum hasn't done anything yet. Degale I'll agree with but Smith, na.

Hopefully Groves realises in the next few weeks that he did lose the fight. Maybe that'll make him think about changing his trainer. Not that it's all Fitzpatricks fault but a fresh start might do him good. Avoid Degale and work his way back whilst working on his skills. He'll probably fight Abraham soon I would have thought.

With you on JuanMa and Gamboa bellchees, we waited and waited and waited and then Lopez started getting knocked sideways by most he fought. Disagree on Fury vs Price as the latter was still pretty green when that fight was being touted, and thank god it didn't happen as Price's chin hadn't been exposed at that point.

I was rather hopeful when Haymon took over, big mixed results for me so far. There's been some competitive matchups away from the big fights but sadly the big boys have failed to get it on so far. Time will tell I guess.

Rowley wrote:I don't want to write the kid off at 27, on the back of a close loss overseas, but what he has left and what he can argue at the negotiating table are two very different things. From the perspective of the Degale camp Groves is a guy who has lost the three times he has stepped into world class and as such should be grateful another opportunity at a world title is coming his way. You'd think they would really stick it to him in terms of the contract on offer.

This is true however regardless of form and alphabet titles, Groves is still probably a bigger ticket seller over here and in his mind he'll be a bugger to negotiate with., so can't see the fight happening anytime soon. Not sure Degale is a big headline act over here so he'll have to tread carefully as he needs Groves and vice versa.

Cheers, Rodders

3 title fights, 3 losses.

3 strikes and you're out. Seriously Groves can fight Smith etc and earn his shot.

AdamT wrote:3 title fights, 3 losses.

3 strikes and you're out. Seriously Groves can fight Smith etc and earn his shot.

The same Smith he knocked out in 2 rounds ?? Normally I'd agree in earning your stripes for a world title shot - however titles are handed out so cheaply these days, I can't be shocked on any fighter getting a chance. Still probably Degales biggest payday.

Cheers, Rodders

Rodney wrote:

AdamT wrote:3 title fights, 3 losses.

3 strikes and you're out. Seriously Groves can fight Smith etc and earn his shot.

The same Smith he knocked out in 2 rounds ?? Normally I'd agree in earning your stripes for a world title shot - however titles are handed out so cheaply these days, I can't be shocked on any fighter getting a chance. Still probably Degales biggest payday.

Cheers, Rodders

At this exact moment in time probably not. And Groves would never take it as another loss and that would be it, it'd take him yonks to get back.

Thing is if chunky keeps winning then Groves has to get a big statement win to warrant a shot at him. Can see this ending up being a sort of Hatton/Witter scenario whereby one just doesn't do quite enough to warrant the shot and has no real 'standout' win.

Thing is Groves will always come unstuck as he gasses and won't fight someone as easy to pin as Froch each fight.

Perhaps he just had a style that Froch found awkward and will do a Junior Jones and lose most of the mainstream fights he was in other than when fighting Barrera?

Has Groves been "Cobra'd" or is making 168 just affecting his ability to perform for 12 rounds? He was always a big SMW.

I meant Callum Smith

Coxy001 wrote:

Rodney wrote:

AdamT wrote:3 title fights, 3 losses.

3 strikes and you're out. Seriously Groves can fight Smith etc and earn his shot.

The same Smith he knocked out in 2 rounds ?? Normally I'd agree in earning your stripes for a world title shot - however titles are handed out so cheaply these days, I can't be shocked on any fighter getting a chance. Still probably Degales biggest payday.

Cheers, Rodders

At this exact moment in time probably not. And Groves would never take it as another loss and that would be it, it'd take him yonks to get back.

Thing is if chunky keeps winning then Groves has to get a big statement win to warrant a shot at him. Can see this ending up being a sort of Hatton/Witter scenario whereby one just doesn't do quite enough to warrant the shot and has no real 'standout' win.

Thing is Groves will always come unstuck as he gasses and won't fight someone as easy to pin as Froch each fight.

Perhaps he just had a style that Froch found awkward and will do a Junior Jones and lose most of the mainstream fights he was in other than when fighting Barrera?

since when was anything about warranting a shot.. its just if the money works.... and groves is still a bigger payday and easier sell than pretty much anybody else degale wants to line up.

As for groves....Jack's talking about moving up... maybe they'll punt groves in with dirrell for the vacant belt and have another go at hoping that might lead to a degale/groves unification fight comes off.

In principle groves could go after AA first, but Abraham is a cash cow, can't see them letting anyone with a pulse fight him until they're convinced he literally can't put one foot in front of another any more.

Coxy001 wrote:

Rodney wrote:

AdamT wrote:3 title fights, 3 losses.

3 strikes and you're out. Seriously Groves can fight Smith etc and earn his shot.

The same Smith he knocked out in 2 rounds ?? Normally I'd agree in earning your stripes for a world title shot - however titles are handed out so cheaply these days, I can't be shocked on any fighter getting a chance. Still probably Degales biggest payday.

Cheers, Rodders

At this exact moment in time probably not. And Groves would never take it as another loss and that would be it, it'd take him yonks to get back.

Thing is if chunky keeps winning then Groves has to get a big statement win to warrant a shot at him. Can see this ending up being a sort of Hatton/Witter scenario whereby one just doesn't do quite enough to warrant the shot and has no real 'standout' win.

Thing is Groves will always come unstuck as he gasses and won't fight someone as easy to pin as Froch each fight.

Perhaps he just had a style that Froch found awkward and will do a Junior Jones and lose most of the mainstream fights he was in other than when fighting Barrera?

Groves looks like he does gas out a bit, but to be honest Degale also looks a bit iffy in the stamina department as well, tends to look for a breather in a lot of fights.

Degale's not my favourite person don't like the bloke, but I think its the 1st time I favour Degale to beat Groves, you can't fancy Groves on his last 2 performances.

Pound-for-Pound wrote:Has Groves been "Cobra'd" or is making 168 just affecting his ability to perform for 12 rounds? He was always a big SMW.

He isn't going to make it at 175..

Degale has hardly looked sparkling recently. He got the nod in a close decision overseas, against a different kind of fighter to Jack. Jack, may or may not, be better than his record suggests.

Groves has also beaten Degale before and clearly has the mental edge.

If Degale takes the fight now and loses, it's pretty bad for him.

I'd make Degale favourite, but give Groves a more than decent chance.

Disagree..................Degale thinks he won the fight and has the added bonus of knowing Groves has lost three times since..

Anyone has the mental edge it's Degale..

I don't think Degale is anything special either.

Degale has the mental edge of being in a better place, think Groves has the mental edge head-to-head though.

I disagree............I scored the fight a draw.....Plenty had Degale winning !!..He didn't "beat" Degale !!!! He sneaked it...

No one would have complained had degale got the decision !!!

Since then Degale has become champion beating a quality opponent and Groves has lost three times.....

If Groves had dominated Degale maybe there would be something there............

Degale will be top of the world mentally when he lines up with Groves..

Got to agree with Truss, the mentality of both fighters will be poles apart, Degale will feel he's the best super middle in the world and Groves will be feeling sorry for himself and feel the worlds against him.

Groves only has himself to blame for this last defeat, I would have thought the KO by Froch would have taught Groves to keep he's left hand up, but nope, shouldn't have been an argument about the result, Jack ain't all that, poor performance.

As I said before I've always favoured Groves to beat Degale but definitely not at the moment.

The only thing I would say is that they have that much hate for each other that Groves could produce a career performance.

Unrelated (ish) but apparently Joshua Whyte has sold 14,000 tickets today. Good to see Josh flogging tickets but slightly worried if it can sell out based on one fight in a day, Hearn will take the Michael with the undercard. Match room also ran vs Argentine binman.

Groves needs to get off the 'everybody is against me' 'I am the away fighter' attitude. Even if it is correct. He also needs to stop tying to dissect the mentality of his opponents before fights. It's the same stuff he ran away with doing in Froch 2 and that ended well for him. Focus on your talent. Focus on what you do wrong and how to improve. Get a better trainer. PAddy has had five fights and Groves looks worse each time.

Yeah I think in their respective careers Degale is obviously in a better place.

I just think that in their rivalry Groves has the mental edge over Degale. Obviously it was a close decision last time, but Degale was expected to win easily. Groves was 3/1 underdog.

I also think the childish side of Degale really wants to avenge the defeat, and Groves will be able to get to him.

Degale would be favourite, but I don't see it as a gimmie for him. Wouldn't be at all surprised if Groves did win.

Can't see it happening as Degale holds all the cards and would be rubbing that in, already seen a quote where he says Groves can take 10% of the purse etc. Can't see Groves' ego going for that, especially against Degale.

I think Degale under rated Groves and thought he was going to knock him out, but Groves worked a good game plan and flustered Degale in early mid rounds surprising everyone, I think the pro Groves crowed also influenced the cards, I had Degale winning by 2 rounds.

I don't think Degale felt beat in the last fight so I don't think it will effect him mentally if they fought again,and he knows he has risen to the challenge in a very tough fight, where Groves has fallen short three times now. I think providing Degale does not get over confident he beats Groves and possibly stops him.