AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Or Saints keeping Ashton.

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 12:53 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Beshocked it has feck all to do with money for me.
It's very simple.
They chose to cheat
They looked at an agreement they signed up to and thought feck it,let's do what we want.
They were caught and then bullied every one else to back down with threats of high court and years of legal disputes.
There academy may be great
There tactics the best
The coaching world class.
But quite simply they peed on everyone else and did not give too fecks about it.
That's what's got right on my jubblies.
And as I said, enjoy your success, it may have been earnt,but those in charge have tarnished it beyond my ability to forgive and forget.
They took the principal off fair play and leveraging field and took a big steami g turd on it.

And they had the nerve to preach to other leagues about the how things should be done.
They are an embarrassment

carpet baboon fair enough if you feel that way. I think that's a good argument and you're entitled to your opinion. In ways yes you are right and to be honest I am not totally in disagreement.

They did break the rules so yes they should in all likelihood be punished. Though I don't like all this talk about "bullying" because it's all cloak and daggers and none of us know the facts. Far too much speculation for my liking personally.

Far too many posters claiming to know more than they do.

Ozzy do you know what my stance is?

by **LondonTiger** Fri 23 Oct 2015, 1:11 pm

nathan wrote:Think this site and all fans should start tweeting premiership rugby our distaste for this

we need a hash tag I guess

by carpet baboon Fri 23 Oct 2015, 1:21 pm

beshocked wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Beshocked it has feck all to do with money for me.
It's very simple.
They chose to cheat
They looked at an agreement they signed up to and thought feck it,let's do what we want.
They were caught and then bullied every one else to back down with threats of high court and years of legal disputes.
There academy may be great
There tactics the best
The coaching world class.
But quite simply they peed on everyone else and did not give too fecks about it.
That's what's got right on my jubblies.
And as I said, enjoy your success, it may have been earnt,but those in charge have tarnished it beyond my ability to forgive and forget.
They took the principal off fair play and leveraging field and took a big steami g turd on it.

And they had the nerve to preach to other leagues about the how things should be done.
They are an embarrassment

carpet baboon fair enough if you feel that way. I think that's a good argument and you're entitled to your opinion. In ways yes you are right and to be honest I am not totally in disagreement.

They did break the rules so yes they should in all likelihood be punished. Though I don't like all this talk about "bullying" because it's all cloak and daggers and none of us know the facts. Far too much speculation for my liking personally.

Far too many posters claiming to know more than they do.

Ozzy do you know what my stance is?

Your right we dont know all the facts.
But some people do.
And at least one of them is apoplectic with rage as to how this has ended.
It will all come out one day.
And on that day I hope your as angry as they are.

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 1:51 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Beshocked it has feck all to do with money for me.
It's very simple.
They chose to cheat
They looked at an agreement they signed up to and thought feck it,let's do what we want.
They were caught and then bullied every one else to back down with threats of high court and years of legal disputes.
There academy may be great
There tactics the best
The coaching world class.
But quite simply they peed on everyone else and did not give too fecks about it.
That's what's got right on my jubblies.
And as I said, enjoy your success, it may have been earnt,but those in charge have tarnished it beyond my ability to forgive and forget.
They took the principal off fair play and leveraging field and took a big steami g turd on it.

And they had the nerve to preach to other leagues about the how things should be done.
They are an embarrassment

carpet baboon fair enough if you feel that way. I think that's a good argument and you're entitled to your opinion. In ways yes you are right and to be honest I am not totally in disagreement.

They did break the rules so yes they should in all likelihood be punished. Though I don't like all this talk about "bullying" because it's all cloak and daggers and none of us know the facts. Far too much speculation for my liking personally.

Far too many posters claiming to know more than they do.

Ozzy do you know what my stance is?

Your right we dont know all the facts.
But some people do.
And at least one of them is apoplectic with rage as to how this has ended.
It will all come out one day.
And on that day I hope your as angry as they are.

One day the media will feast..... is that for the good of the game though?

by Guest Fri 23 Oct 2015, 1:55 pm

In this case, Yes.

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 2:17 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/oct/22/premiership-rugby-mike-mccafferty-rfu

Interesting comments from Mccafferty.

“A lot of the speculation had been based on significantly inaccurate information,” he said after a board meeting which agreed to substantially increase the cap from £5.5m this season to £6.5m in 2016-17 and £7m the following year.

“There were issues we were pursuing which were potentially in the breach category,” said McCafferty who, bound by a confidentiality clause, was able to speak only in the abstract. “There were substantially different legal opinions and it became less than straightforward.

“We are not talking about loopholes but access to information and whether certain commercial contracts should be included in the calculation or not, which is where the differing legal opinion came in. It is not a legal requirement for us to have a salary cap, but one the clubs choose to have to help manage costs.

“We have reached a settlement which is a commercial agreement between two parties which does what it says, settles differences. It does not amount to a fine because that implies a sanction and there have been no breaches. I cannot get into the nature of the settlement. When you get to a point in any commercial relationship where there is a difference of views between two parties, an option is always to settle without one part being right and the other wrong, otherwise you are into a prolonged dispute. We are confident we have resolved the differences and we move on.

“I am concerned at the nature of the speculation that has taken place because it meant people came to an incorrect conclusion. We conduct various reviews of clubs each year in the context of closing off their annual audits. In these cases, while we have maintained confidentiality, information has flowed out and that has given oxygen to the scale of speculation there has been. The issues were complex and took time to reach an outcome.”

I am sure there will be many who will be unsatisfied by this but he's right. There's been far too much speculation.

by Guest Fri 23 Oct 2015, 2:40 pm

Too much speculation that was caused by their efforts to sweep the uncomfortable truth under the carpet.

McCafferty is as bad as the rest. He is a man I just wouldn't believe.

by Margin_Walker Fri 23 Oct 2015, 2:41 pm

When things are conducted behind closed doors and undisclosed settlements reached, people speculate.

by BamBam Fri 23 Oct 2015, 2:49 pm

beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

by carpet baboon Fri 23 Oct 2015, 2:57 pm

Jo Marler would seem to agree with us that this has been a rather terrible cover up

by **LondonTiger** Fri 23 Oct 2015, 4:11 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Joe Marler would seem to agree with us that this has been a rather terrible cover up

Wouldn't you just love to be a fly on the wall at the next England training session.

PRL have admitted that there were payments from other sources that they deemed to be against the rules of the cap, but the fat cat lawyers hired by "un-named" teams claimed it was not.

This means that players at the "un-named" teams will have been aware that they were receiving dodgy payments. In effect they have been able to demand a higher salary than their colleagues because these "un-named" teams cheated, and they knew the cheating was happening.

by SecretFly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 4:36 pm

beshocked wrote:

“There were issues we were pursuing which were potentially in the breach category,” said McCafferty who, bound by a confidentiality clause, was able to speak only in the abstract. “There were substantially different legal opinions and it became less than straightforward.

“We are not talking about loopholes but access to information and whether certain commercial contracts should be included in the calculation or not, which is where the differing legal opinion came in. It is not a legal requirement for us to have a salary cap, but one the clubs choose to have to help manage costs.

“We have reached a settlement which is a commercial agreement between two parties which does what it says, settles differences. It does not amount to a fine because that implies a sanction and there have been no breaches. I cannot get into the nature of the settlement. When you get to a point in any commercial relationship where there is a difference of views between two parties, an option is always to settle without one part being right and the other wrong, otherwise you are into a prolonged dispute. We are confident we have resolved the differences and we move on.

“I am concerned at the nature of the speculation that has taken place because it meant people came to an incorrect conclusion. We conduct various reviews of clubs each year in the context of closing off their annual audits. In these cases, while we have maintained confidentiality, information has flowed out and that has given oxygen to the scale of speculation there has been. The issues were complex and took time to reach an outcome.”

I am sure there will be many who will be unsatisfied by this but he's right. There's been far too much speculation.

Paraphrase?: "I can say nothing solid, but the teams in question did pay a fine that I obviously cannot say is a fine because of the agreement reached; and that states that I say nothing specific, remain tongue-twistingly abstract, and that I should publically state that no breach occurred. No breach has occurred therefore no fine was warranted, although money was paid that can't now be called a fine because people agreed to a rule and broke it. Oh and we remain fully transparent btw."

And people are laughing at the shenanigans of Blatter and Platini?

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 4:37 pm

BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

I have to be condescending to Bambam because he's coming out with right gems of stupidity.

Man City have 5 English players in their 25 man first team squad.

That's 20%. Only 2 of them are any good. None of the 5 are from the Man City academy. Do Man City even own an academy?

Comparing Saracens to Man City is just stupid. Oh and Nigel Wray is English, from North London if you didn't realise.

Oh and Sarries still had Richard Hill before Nigel Wray became involved with Saracens.

by broadlandboy Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:00 pm

If clubs thought they were within the rules why the confidentiality clause? If nothing to hide why the secrecy?
Better for the game to be open even if it was a grey area. Its the lack of information which is worse. Even if clubs have broken the rules better to take short sharp shock than the drawn out guesses from the fans.

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:13 pm

broadlandboy wrote:If clubs thought they were within the rules why the confidentiality clause? If nothing to hide why the secrecy?
Better for the game to be open even if it was a grey area. Its the lack of information which is worse. Even if clubs have broken the rules better to take short sharp shock than the drawn out guesses from the fans.

Lawyers and putting up shields. Also probably don't want to the media to have a field day. Can't blame them - I wouldn't want the media scrutinising everything I do. If you don't know what I am doing you can speculate but you have no proof.

Just because you want something to be confidential doesn't mean you breaking the rules necessarily either.

You talk about a short sharp shock - it wouldn't happen that way. The media would draw it out and out.

Plus there are posters IMO who wouldn't want it short and sharp, they want it to be long,drawn out, painful and as damaging to certain clubs as possible. Supposedly for the integrity of the game.

Also I am sure there are differing opinions on how harsh a punishment should be. An agreement would be very difficult to reach with strong opinions on both sides.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:19 pm

beshocked wrote:Also I am sure there are differing opinions on how harsh a punishment should be. An agreement would be very difficult to reach with strong opinions on both sides.

You really believe that?

After all the prescribed punishments were clear for all to see. The 14 stakeholders all signed up to the agreed punishments.

That you are unable to see that we have had a long and drawn out process already, because of the secrecy, beggars belief.

I do not believe you are as stupid as you are coming across. Nor as selfish. Nor as self obsessed. Thus I will assume you are merely playing Devil's Advocate.

by beshocked Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:31 pm

Londontiger there is differing interpretations of the rules.

Do you punish a team with a points deduction this season? Is it the next one? Do you strip Saracens of the AP title? Is that in the rules?

How much do you financially penalise the "guilty" clubs?

My point is that rules can be open to interpretation even when "broken".

I wouldn't say it's that clear cut.

Yes there has been a long and drawn out process and yet there seems no end.

You can think what you will.

None of this is clear cut. You can say it's down to the secrecy and you're right but that's where we are.

There must be reasons for the secrecy.

We can speculate yes but at the moment we don't have all the answers.

Perhaps if I had all the info in front of me I might well hold a view point more in aligned with others.

by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:32 pm

Statement from wasps, not holding my breath for something similar from tigers.

http://wasps.co.uk/news/article/2015/10/23/prl-salary-cap-announcement

by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:35 pm

This is just a Poopie decision all round, those defending it need a long hard look at themselves. Which teams can responsibly afford to spend that amount? None. All this will promote is teams to spend irresponsibly then when the sugar daddies leave them high and dry they will go bust

by SecretFly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:41 pm

beshocked.... what the hell are 'rules' for if they can always be interpreted? A lifetime in court working out what rules meant?

Nothing is 'clear'. Nothing is 'proven'. You hope nothing ever becomes 'proven' as that will make people 'speculate' and 'speculation' is unhelpful - as there will always be 'interpretation' of any 'rule' and therefore, ideally, nobody should ever be told they are guilty and nobody should be asked to pay a fine or lose points, because nothing can be proven...ever.

by carpet baboon Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:43 pm

So wasps in the politest way possible are saying its a frickin farce. Good on them. Now all but 2 clubs to issue the same.

And beshocked I said from the start I don't want the clubs ruined,I want the rules and punishment THEY signed up to enforced.
The important part of that s THEY AGREED to the cap and its subsequent punishment, which they now have shat on

by BamBam Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:50 pm

beshocked wrote:
BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

I have to be condescending to Bambam because he's coming out with right gems of stupidity.

Man City have 5 English players in their 25 man first team squad.

That's 20%. Only 2 of them are any good. None of the 5 are from the Man City academy. Do Man City even own an academy?

Comparing Saracens to Man City is just stupid. Oh and Nigel Wray is English, from North London if you didn't realise.

Oh and Sarries still had Richard Hill before Nigel Wray became involved with Saracens.

You Frak patronising moronic ar5e h0le

Did I mention anything about English players? Did you happen to get rich just because some pr1ck called Nigel decided he would buy you? Could he have bought another club instead if he was a fan of theirs? Sounds like a lottery win to me

And what has Richard Hill got to do with anything

by **LondonTiger** Fri 23 Oct 2015, 5:52 pm

Rueters Nows Agency wrote:Bernie Ecclestone has decided that Premiership Rugby in England meets his high moral standards. He is thus interested in maintaining the Mootor Racing link with Gloucester Rugby and considering buying the club from the Walkinshaw family.

Speaking just after his amicable meeting with Vladimir Putin, Ecclestone had this to say:

"We all know that the machinery that is modern day sport needs a little greasing to keep everything moving. There are small minded people out there who feel a bribe is a bad thing. I say to them, it is a worthwhile cost for any sporting endeavour"

Mr Ecclestone, who payed a £60m settlement to a German court to end a Bribery trial brought against him, went on to say

"Along with my good friend Mr Blatter, we have been watching developments in club rugby with great interest. These are the sort of men I can do business with"

Mr Ecclestone refused to deny rumours that Lance Armstrong would be appointed as a Strength and Conditioning consultant should his purchase be completed.

by Poorfour Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:12 pm

Look, this is disappointing but it was always likely it would end this way. The Rugby Paper article a few weeks ago raised some hope for a clear resolution, but clearly the clubs couldn't reach the unanimous position required (unsurprisingly, in hindsight).

Even though we don't have any detail, it's likely that the position was and is something like this:
- The salary cap is and always has been a commercial agreement between companies (the clubs) to limit spending
- Some clubs (two have been reported) hired some clever lawyers to find a way to circumvent the spirit but not the letter of the cap. Said lawyers did their job just well enough
- When the rest of the clubs found out, they called foul, because it was a pretty clear breach of the spirit of the cap
- However, because the job was done well enough, there was enough legal doubt that if the clubs under investigation went to caught they could at worst drag it out and make it expensive, and at best win. Either result would be commercially very damaging to the remaining clubs, and possibly fatal to the poorer ones
- Faced with that, the remaining clubs chose survival over principle and agreed some kind of settlement with the alleged cap-breakers
- Part of this settlement was that there was no admission of guilt, confidentiality over what was investigated and agreed. Hence the very carefully worded statements, delivered I suspect through gritted teeth.

It's unpleasant and unedifying, but put yourself in the position of the club executives or owners. The owners have already sunk millions into their clubs, which are now finally edging towards being able to repay some of that. Litigation over the cap would probably mean delaying the start of the season even further, and possibly putting other payments (e.g, from the RFU or BT) on hold until the dispute was resolved, at huge legal cost.

If you think that this mess is damaging to fan loyalty, imagine what trashing the season to drag everything through the courts would do. Compromise hacks off a bunch of loyal, attentive fans, who will mostly grumble but eventually come back. Anything that disrupts the season hacks off ALL your fans, a lot of whom may not come back.

As an owner or exec of a club, you don't have much choice. In fact, there might have been no choice at all: two clubs are owned by a large number of small shareholders and their execs therefore have a duty to act in those shareholders' commercial best interests, which would mean compromise. Since that would prevent a unanimous vote, the other clubs then have no real alternative but to follow suit.

tl;dr: rich enough people can afford good enough lawyers.

by carpet baboon Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:19 pm

As in life so shall it be in sport. The rich get richer by shafting every other mother funker.

What a time to be alive

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:20 pm

Very true Poorfour. That's why those that have forced this situation can go **** themselves.

by Poorfour Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:21 pm

All of which said, we fans are not bound by confidentiality agreements. I have spoken to people close to two of the clubs who weren't implicated in the alleged breaches.

They were very clear about which clubs were bending the spirit of the cap to breaking point. They were equally clear that there has not been a level playing field for several years.

Enough, beshocked. You don't have to accept the conclusion that nearly every other poster on this board has drawn, but you won't win or keep any friends by continuing to rail against it at every opportunity.

by TJ Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:52 pm

It was always on the cards. Now the rich owners can simply act with impunity - this has weakened further the RFU. Another step close to the football premier league

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:01 pm

What has the RFU got to do with this?

by TJ Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:04 pm

It shows how little control they have over the clubs and were the power really lies. The RFU should be in control of this and ensuring the clubs were dealt with properly for cheating - but they can't.

by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:08 pm

For me club rugby is a completely differen product to national rugby

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:16 pm

TJ wrote:It shows how little control they have over the clubs and were the power really lies. The RFU should be in control of this and ensuring the clubs were dealt with properly for cheating - but they can't.

The RFU have nothing to do with the salary cap. It's self imposed by the PRL and the PRL can do what they like with it. You seem to have completely misunderstood what's going on.

by Student-A1 Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:28 pm

beshocked wrote:
BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

I have to be condescending to Bambam because he's coming out with right gems of stupidity.

Man City have 5 English players in their 25 man first team squad.

That's 20%. Only 2 of them are any good. None of the 5 are from the Man City academy. Do Man City even own an academy?

Comparing Saracens to Man City is just stupid. Oh and Nigel Wray is English, from North London if you didn't realise.

Oh and Sarries still had Richard Hill before Nigel Wray became involved with Saracens.

beshocked - you say Bambam is talking nonsense but your input about Man City is ridiculous and the way you are addressing Bambam is arrogant and unwarranted, to make matters worse I tend to agree with you on the premise of what you say 90% of the time.

Do Man City own an academy? Well from everyone who goes there pundits/ex players/reporters they have one of if not the best academy facilities in Europe. It was neglected for many a year but with the new owner investment it has been transformed. So not many players coming through since quite a number a few years back due to being poorly run and ignored. Plus they are also playing at a different level to previously so previous academy graduates would not be good enough.
The youth teams of both them and Chelsea are now winning so many of the trophies and in time it will bear fruit. Whether it is to Englands benefit is another story as most top clubs take the best young talent form around the globe as well as England.
Again unsure as to why the Richard Hill comment they too also had players like Colin Bell and Franny Lee before the money due to the long history.

Does Nigel Wray being English have any meaning?? From what I remember the last English owners of Man City ran them into almost extinction where as the new Non-English has written off any debt and transformed the whole Manchester area near the ground, whilst also employing pretty much all British companies and people to carry out the work. Oh I bet they wish they still had an English owner.

This of course is of zero relevance to rugby but I wanted to clarify some points as the tone of has to be English leaves a sour taste. I have no issue with the investment coming in to the club game from Wray or any other financial backer. If premier rugby are too weak to deal with breaches in the salary cap then I am sure something will change; I don't foresee a status quo as in football, there are too many restrictions on number of foreign players for that. If as some people here state the rules have been bent then that is not the clubs fault but a problem in the definition of the rule. There should be no room to interpret the rule from one team to the next if some have found the way then the rule needs to change to ensure that is not allowed to happen again.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Oct 2015, 8:40 pm

Cheats are winning at half time.

by TJ Fri 23 Oct 2015, 8:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
TJ wrote:It shows how little control they have over the clubs and were the power really lies. The RFU should be in control of this and ensuring the clubs were dealt with properly for cheating - but they can't.

The RFU have nothing to do with the salary cap. It's self imposed by the PRL and the PRL can do what they like with it. You seem to have completely misunderstood what's going on.

No I have not. The rfu have lost all control of the top flight club game and this shows how far it has gone. do you really think the cheating then the bullying to stop from being penalised for cheating shows a well run system?

what it says to me is its essential that that someone other than the clubs has the final control - and that the RFU have surrendered control completely meaning no one can now exert any control on the rich men running a few of the clubs - the other clubs can't because they do not have the money to counter the rich guys lawyers. Its utterly appalling state of affairs and one the english fans will regret in years to come.

by SecretFly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 8:56 pm

Yes... in a sense the Union game is owned by Unions and if self governing clubs (some of them) are bringing that game into 'disrepute' with the FIFA style stuff behind closed doors, then surely a higher authority (RFU)should be able to tut tut and suggest the PRL get its house in order to establish trust in the game again.

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:16 pm

TJ wrote:No I have not. The rfu have lost all control of the top flight club game and this shows how far it has gone. do you really think the cheating then the bullying to stop from being penalised for cheating shows a well run system?

They haven't "lost control". They gave the clubs the control over the commercial rights of their games. As a completely separate thing the clubs decided to (much like the regions decided to) impose a salary cap that they structured and controlled themselves for their own purposes. The idea that this shows anything about how much control the RFU have is completely non-sensical, unless you have no idea what the English set-up is. It's told us nothing new there.

what it says to me is its essential that that someone other than the clubs has the final control - and that the RFU have surrendered control completely meaning no one can now exert any control on the rich men running a few of the clubs - the other clubs can't because they do not have the money to counter the rich guys lawyers. Its utterly appalling state of affairs and one the english fans will regret in years to come.

Does it? Who the hell is that? The RFU can do what they like, which is legal. If they tried to impose a salary cap it would probably be taken to court over competition issues or some other European law thing. That is why it has to be self imposed.

by Hood83 Sat 24 Oct 2015, 12:55 am

So will all agree, Sarries are awful.

by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:05 am

Let's not let Bath off the hook ...

by Guest Sat 24 Oct 2015, 2:03 am

We haven't. Wasps will have more fans tomorrow than they ever have, as dirty as that might feel for us all. angel

by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 10:06 am

Sarries trying it on again ... not quite technically breaking the rules but taking the p* all the same ...

dodgy ..

by doctor_grey Sun 25 Oct 2015, 8:50 am

Let no one off the hook. Transparency and Accountability is onr of the needed steps as Rugby grows to become a proper professional sport. Punish them all, but this must be the tiping point.

by Sin é Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:55 am

I see where Nigel Wray bought the original Dave Gallaher's jersey from first AB European Tour for 200,000. (He exchanged jersey with Welsh captain). It was expected to go for between 20-40,000. Wray outbid several NZ bidders. Collecting jerseys like he wants to collect players! Nice trophy to stick on his wall.

by SecretFly Sun 25 Oct 2015, 11:52 am

Nigel seems to be the Simon Cowell of Rugby Union. "I'm bling me, mate. So I mightn't tell you the truth but I'll never lie, and that's my promise to you if you're gullible enough to believe it. It's about sponsors and money, innit. Get in there, my son. Splash it all over. Used car in good nick. Only 24 previous owners. Englne optional."
A door to door salesman. As he's put in the prison cell it's him that's locking the cell door from the outside on his jailers.

by beshocked Mon 26 Oct 2015, 9:22 am

Student-A1 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

I have to be condescending to Bambam because he's coming out with right gems of stupidity.

Man City have 5 English players in their 25 man first team squad.

That's 20%. Only 2 of them are any good. None of the 5 are from the Man City academy. Do Man City even own an academy?

Comparing Saracens to Man City is just stupid. Oh and Nigel Wray is English, from North London if you didn't realise.

Oh and Sarries still had Richard Hill before Nigel Wray became involved with Saracens.

beshocked - you say Bambam is talking nonsense but your input about Man City is ridiculous and the way you are addressing Bambam is arrogant and unwarranted, to make matters worse I tend to agree with you on the premise of what you say 90% of the time.

Do Man City own an academy? Well from everyone who goes there pundits/ex players/reporters they have one of if not the best academy facilities in Europe. It was neglected for many a year but with the new owner investment it has been transformed. So not many players coming through since quite a number a few years back due to being poorly run and ignored. Plus they are also playing at a different level to previously so previous academy graduates would not be good enough.
The youth teams of both them and Chelsea are now winning so many of the trophies and in time it will bear fruit. Whether it is to Englands benefit is another story as most top clubs take the best young talent form around the globe as well as England.
Again unsure as to why the Richard Hill comment they too also had players like Colin Bell and Franny Lee before the money due to the long history.

Does Nigel Wray being English have any meaning?? From what I remember the last English owners of Man City ran them into almost extinction where as the new Non-English has written off any debt and transformed the whole Manchester area near the ground, whilst also employing pretty much all British companies and people to carry out the work. Oh I bet they wish they still had an English owner.

This of course is of zero relevance to rugby but I wanted to clarify some points as the tone of has to be English leaves a sour taste. I have no issue with the investment coming in to the club game from Wray or any other financial backer. If premier rugby are too weak to deal with breaches in the salary cap then I am sure something will change; I don't foresee a status quo as in football, there are too many restrictions on number of foreign players for that. If as some people here state the rules have been bent then that is not the clubs fault but a problem in the definition of the rule. There should be no room to interpret the rule from one team to the next if some have found the way then the rule needs to change to ensure that is not allowed to happen again.

Student A1

They might have one of the best academy facilities that money can buy but its means nothing if they don't have any players to show for it in the current set up. It's like saying RFU are the richest union in the world but the England team can't even make it past the pool stages. Have to have something to show for it.

The reality is that what Manchester City currently have as an academy is not good enough. Might be brilliant in a few years time but currently it's a bad joke.

Compare that to Saracens who are having potential England prospects coming through all the time. I guess you could argue it's easier because Saracens have a bigger catchment and a bigger net but still...

I mention Richard Hill because he was one of the greatest flankers in world rugby.

Well Wray being English has meaning to some people because there are those who want an English coach, surely they would want English owners too?

To be honest I agree with your last sentence.

Oh and I should add I am not against a punishment if Saracens are found guilty. Also not against a transparency in the salary cap to prevent cheating in the future.

Why are you Irish still talking about the salary cap? You don't even know what a salary cap is.

As for Nigel Wray, have any of you met him? Is it fair to make sweeping generalisations about a man you have never met?

Sin e sheer ignorance. Wray is a passionate collector of sports memorabilia. A passionate rugby fan. The difference is he has the finances to do what he wants.

There are far worse owners than Wray.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Oct 2015, 9:30 am

Is Itoje injured beshocked?

by beshocked Mon 26 Oct 2015, 9:40 am

BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:
BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Saracens in particular very much indebted to Wray who has taken from a club of quite low prospects but long history who had no home, given them a home, helped develop a strong academy which is bearing fruit for England and turning them into a stronger club.

Its like someone said about Man City, they are a league 2 club who won the lottery. Similarly, Saracens would be a mid tier Aviva side, but now they're jumped up little Poopie who think they are too good for the rest because some d1ckhead bought them

yappysnap wrote:Part of me now can not wait for the ECC so I can happily watch Sarries and Bath get destroyed by teams from other leagues. I'll be cheering on any one who plays them.

I'll be joining you. Although apparently you should be grateful for your club giving an ex Sarries employee a job ?

I have to be condescending to Bambam because he's coming out with right gems of stupidity.

Man City have 5 English players in their 25 man first team squad.

That's 20%. Only 2 of them are any good. None of the 5 are from the Man City academy. Do Man City even own an academy?

Comparing Saracens to Man City is just stupid. Oh and Nigel Wray is English, from North London if you didn't realise.

Oh and Sarries still had Richard Hill before Nigel Wray became involved with Saracens.

You Frak patronising moronic ar5e h0le

Did I mention anything about English players? Did you happen to get rich just because some pr1ck called Nigel decided he would buy you? Could he have bought another club instead if he was a fan of theirs? Sounds like a lottery win to me

And what has Richard Hill got to do with anything

You compared Man City to Saracens - that's just stupid as I pointed out.

As for Nigel being a pr1ck in your eyes, you can believe that if you want - personally I think it shows a lack of knowledge because I doubt you know anything about him. Your dislike of him is based mostly on speculation.

Hating someone based on hearsay and speculation.....

I am defending Wray because I am grateful for what he's done for Saracens and I believe that the irrational hatred is wrong. He does not live in a ivory tower - he talks to normal Saracens fans, he goes to practically every game and has a real passion, he's poured millions of money into Saracens - not all of it wisely but nonetheless he's done it.

If Saracens have broken the rules then yes a punishment is in order. Unfortunately we are short on facts.

I can understand the sentiment to want to clean up the game, have a fair system and I can understand that but the salary cap is self imposed shackle which the Irish do not have. I want a system which is line with the other leagues.

If I had the means to fight something I did not agree with, I would.

Lottery win? Hardly - Saracens would have just been different without him - who knows what would have happened with no Wray at Saracens. I am no mystic meg - I don't have a crystal ball.

no 7 & 1/2 unsure. Heard that he might be, if not I can't understand why Mark Mccall wouldn't pick him.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:04 am

Yeah not read anything about it but this for me is the area where you start to see where comparisons will start to be made to City Chelsea. Reduced opportunities as there's that many quality players.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:13 am

And I think everyone understands your view of fighting or in my terminology trying to persuade an different agreement on the cap but that's not whats happened here. Bath and Saracens have cheated.

by beshocked Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:15 am

no 7 & 1/2 we haven't got to that level yet.

To be honest I think it's more worrying - Leicester and Quins increase in imports. Two sides that have previously had low foreign imports. Leicester now at Sarries' levels and Quins creeping up.

Saracens have generally had a sizeable amount of foreigners since Wray has been chairman.

I would want to see a reduction in foreign players and a need for a higher % of starts for academy products.

I want a strong AP just like all of you do, I have just have a different view point.

The way you stop the AP going down the route of football - is encouraging teams to develop their youngsters, protect the academy players. Financial incentives for gametime for youngsters.

Other changes I would make - a shield for the league leaders. Salary transparency.

I want a system that can accomodate both the richer AP clubs and the less rich ones. Easier said than done I guess.

You can say that Bath and Saracens have cheated, according to whatever has been agreed they have not. Perhaps they have cheated and should be punished but we do not have all the info.

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