SA in India--Test Matches

by KP_fan Wed 04 Nov 2015, 3:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

as I said at the end of last test when many were getting worried......

India keep out Pujara again to accommodate Rohit?
OR
will Indian managment loose face and keep their pet Rohit out?

that Indians will find an explanation of convenience......and here it is from shastri...all set to show we will play 3 spinners, 1 seamer and 6 batsmen......including pujara and Rohit
and Rohit might bowll seam up posing to be the 2nd seamer if required.

Dhawan will play ahead of Rahul...understandable but everyone is on a short rope here with so well performing Rahul in the squad

Two days before the Test, team director Ravi Shastri spoke about a few of these issues. The number of bowlers, he said, depended on the conditions underfoot and overhead. Sri Lanka was oppressively hot so India needed that extra bowler there. It has cooled down in India's November now, and if the pitches turn as asked, India could beef up their batting and go with just four bowlers. The big question, then, is will this new leadership team of Virat Kohli and Shastri, who have shown an inclination towards pace, be okay with playing just the one quick?

"Tomorrow you can play four spinners if you give me a pitch that will turn on the first day," an emphatic Shastri said. "No rule that you have to play a fast bowler. West Indies played four fast bowlers in their time. No spinners. What stops a team from playing four spinners if you get a track of that kind?"

"Home conditions," Shastri added mischievously.

by KP_fan Thu 26 Nov 2015, 12:19 pm

msp83 wrote:KPF, I think it is an issue of technique and temperament as much as it is about the pitch playing mindgames with the batsman. The likes of say VVS Laxman, wouldn't play such poor shots. The likes of Sehwag would get to the pitch of the bowler and hit the spinner out of the attack. He could do it because he could read the length and flight of the ball better. I don't think other than Pujara and Vijay, the others in the Indian lineup posses similar skill sets, and lets not even talk about the South Africans.

india scored nearly 400 runs on this pitch( in 2 innings) and trust me no side ever could have scored more runs on this pitch....i remember the Mumbai test vs Aus in around 2004-05 when clarke took a 6-fer in one inning....all those guys you named together could score barely 200 runs in 2 inning...yet India won

or the famous Bangalore test vs Pak , gavaskar's last test in 1987 when Ind fell to the spin of Tauseef and Iqbal Qasim lost by 16 runs.....neither side scored more than 375 runs in both innings put together

and the Indian side has Gavsakar, srikant, amarnath, vengsarkar , shastri, kapil, kirmani...stalwarts of playing spin bowling.....

by msp83 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 12:53 pm

In that Mumbai test of 04, VVS and a not fully fit Tendulkar produced innings of class. In this lineup, the 2 guys capable of playing such classy innings in such conditions are Pujara and Vijay. Think Kohli is more suited to the bouncy hard pitches....... That is if he can resist the urge to poke at balls on the 6th and 7th stumps. Can't understand what exactly is the issue with Rahane. Seems the discipline has eluded him a bit and is playing far too many expansive shots before he gets set.......
And Dhawan can't play bounce, can't play seem, can't play swing, can't play spin. He's the best on a flat top in setting up the game, that's all. Is Rahul the answer, thought so some time ago, but having seen him in action, have my doubts as to whether he's quite ready. Its either boom or total bust with him, like Shaun Marsh of Australia!

by KP_fan Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:21 pm

^the point the Mumbai test produced 200 runs in two innings and this Nagpur test 400

does it matter that there are fewer super stars in this team...as long as sum of 11 members is greater than that of 4 superstars in yester-years?

In Lanka in the 2nd and 3rd test as well as in Mohali and Nagpur vs SA.....the sum of smaller parts has consistently produced winning totals.....Naman Ojha, Saha ( about 3 times) Binny's 49, Rohits 20s ad 30s and 40s and 50s and Jadeja's 30s and Mishra and ashwin's plucky 20s and 30s and 40s .....10 out of 11 guys are contributing with the bat.......a bit like the English team when it succeeds .

and isn't that what the objective is.......to win....rather than the individual stardom

by msp83 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:38 pm

In Sri Lanka, there were major knocks. There was Rahane with a ton in the 2nd test, and then there was that spectacular bat carrying effort from Pujara. Vijay made 80 odd in the only game he played. The point is not about stars and their number in the side, it is about the general struggles of Indian batting and inconsistencies of the likes of Kohli who otherwise has it in him to become one of the best in the world. And other than Pujara and Vijay, the current bunch has overall greater problems against spin. Their record against seam and swing isn't great to start with, and if they can't play spin well, they might get away with a side like South Africa who do not have the spin quality to trouble them, but the success of mediocre spinners like Moeen Ali, Robin Peterson, a holding spinner like Harmer, and a very inconsistent spinner like Tahir are indicators...... The likes of Lyon and Herath India often find too hard to handle, the likes of Yasir Shah and Shakib Al Hasan might be even more difficult.......
Yes they are winning, and that is very important. But a winning time in a way is the best time to introspect, success can't be built overnight.......

by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:39 pm

Tahir's days - or perhaps evenings - as a night watchman appear to be numbered. Lasted 12 balls in the first innings and 7 in the second.

by msp83 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:45 pm

He was striking them at 400! Another hour of Tahir!! as they say........

by msp83 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:47 pm

When batsmen with good defensive technique struggle on that tratck, just couldn't understand the point of sending in Tahir as the nightwatchman. Even Morkel or Rabada would have been more sensible choices. Or if it was a couple of overs to survive. Tahir could never have survived 6-7 overs on that track.......

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 6:52 am

I said this yesterday, South Africa are more up for this, at last. They were overthinking and starting with a negative attitude towards the pitch even before a ball was bowled and so lost the battle in the mind even before it started on the field. This innings there seems to be a difference, they seem to believe a lot more and the results are there.......
Will they create history? Will they make Kohli regret his stupid casualness with the bat? Long long way to go, but South Africa have turned up for the series at last.......

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:00 am

South Africa 113-4. The ball is still beating the bat, but the 2 batsmen, Amla and du Plessis, have looked in control overall. Very good batting from the 2 of them. This is unlikely to be a Chandimal Moment for Kohli as the 2 batsmen are unlikely to go on a leather hunt, it will nevertheless be a test of his character as skipper.......

by kingraf Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:49 am

Need to get the target under 100 with at least five wickets intact before we can even start to contemplate a win

by kingraf Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:49 am

Even then, India would be favourites

by Corporalhumblebucket Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:13 am

Amla falls for a very patient 39. That could be the decisive blow for India. 130 - 5

by VTR Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:30 am

The new ball brings 2 wickets.....for the spinner. Game over unless Morne Morkel can smash his maiden Test match century here

by kingraf Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:46 am

Honestly can't believe Vilas has played four tests. Jesus Wept

by KP_fan Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:08 am

Kohli becomes the first Indian captain to win a series against SA

Kohli becomes the first captain in the world in the last 9 years to win a series against SA away from their home

Very Happy

by KP_fan Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:35 am

and as the pitch turned benign and slower......Jadeja became ineffective and Mishra turned more potent.

That's why Mishra is the bowler for normal pitches

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:56 pm

India won a series against South Africa in 1996? Sachin Tendulkar was the skipper?
They won the 2004 series as well? Under Dada Sourav?

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:01 pm

Now that they've won the series, the Indian management should look at fixing some of the issues. Dhawan needs to go....... He is far too inconsistent and even on the subcontinent, he isn't delivering consistently. KL Rahul is the option for now, give him a bit of a run and hopefully he can get out of the boom and bust mode and become a more consistent player. Rohit Sharma hasn't got a god run in the series and so benching him after just the 1 test might be a bit tough, but his test match temperament is anyways suspect, so they can give Gurkirat Singh Man an opportunity in place of Rohit in the next game to try and see what he can offer. If he clicks, then that would be great for the team and the side would have great flexibility in trying out a lot of combinations.

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:11 pm

As for SA, think they should cut the losses on Vilas, not good enough with gloves, and isn't a very good batsman. Get de Kock back in for the England series, AB can take the gloves for the next test as a oneoff...... Bring in an additional batsman, think the option they have is Tempa Bavuma? Do they have a reserve opener? Bovuma is a middle order bat? Styan van Zyl just doesn't look the part....... But who else can step in? Elgar has the temperament and though he hasn't done great, has done enough to earn a good solid run at the top, but who can partner him? Think they will have to go in with van Zyl for the Delhi test, but would need to look at additional options for the England series. In the bowling department, if Steyn's fit, then he has to come in. Young Rabada has been very impressive in the series so far though he hasn't taken too many wickets. But if the track is a spinner's track, then he might have to make way for Steyn. They don't seem to trust Tahir much, so may be they should drop him and go in with 3 seamers. Steyn is not really confined by conditions afterall, and Amla is likely to trust him to bowl to the top order.......

by protea438 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:33 pm

Congrats India

Yeah even though Vilas plays for my local team, QDK must come in for the series against England

by protea438 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:37 pm

msp83 wrote:As for SA, think they should cut the losses on Vilas, not good enough with gloves, and isn't a very good batsman. Get de Kock back in for the England series, AB can take the gloves for the next test as a oneoff...... Bring in an additional batsman, think the option they have is Tempa Bavuma? Do they have a reserve opener? Bovuma is a middle order bat? Styan van Zyl just doesn't look the part....... But who else can step in? Elgar has the temperament and though he hasn't done great, has done enough to earn a good solid run at the top, but who can partner him? Think they will have to go in with van Zyl for the Delhi test, but would need to look at additional options for the England series. In the bowling department, if Steyn's fit, then he has to come in. Young Rabada has been very impressive in the series so far though he hasn't taken too many wickets. But if the track is a spinner's track, then he might have to make way for Steyn. They don't seem to trust Tahir much, so may be they should drop him and go in with 3 seamers. Steyn is not really confined by conditions afterall, and Amla is likely to trust him to bowl to the top order.......

I heard if Steyn is fit but South Africa lose (which they did) they wont risk him for the fourth test, give him more time to recover for England

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 6:12 pm

With Morkel and Philander also facing injury concern, if they give Steyn more time to get match ready, it won't be a bad call. But if they play Tahir, they have to use him well, have to trust him if he's picked.

by KP_fan Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:55 pm

msp83 wrote:Now that they've won the series, the Indian management should look at fixing some of the issues. Dhawan needs to go....... He is far too inconsistent and even on the subcontinent, he isn't delivering consistently. KL Rahul is the option for now, give him a bit of a run and hopefully he can get out of the boom and bust mode and become a more consistent player. Rohit Sharma hasn't got a god run in the series and so benching him after just the 1 test might be a bit tough, but his test match temperament is anyways suspect, so they can give Gurkirat Singh Man an opportunity in place of Rohit in the next game to try and see what he can offer. If he clicks, then that would be great for the team and the side would have great flexibility in trying out a lot of combinations.

dhawan plays for same reason as Jadeja
just like Jadejs is perfect for indian pitches....dhawan is also great for subcontinent pitches

rohit is just hanging in there.....not bad enuf to be dropped yet

by msp83 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:29 pm

Jadeja has absolutely delivered. Not just with ball, but even with the bat too. Dhawan has had one decent contribution under the circumstances, and unlike Vijay or Pujara when they made runs, he never looked comfortable even in that innings and he gave it away with a stupid shot. There is no comparison between him and Jadeja. Jadeja has been brilliant in all innings, even in the innings where he went wicketless. He was still beeting the bat, he was very effective in maintaining a stranglehold on the batsman, and his impact, even in the last innings of the match had to be understood by watching the game, not from the scoreboard. And his 2 batting contributions have been decisive in the match outcome, both came in the midst of an Indian middle order collapse.......

by KP_fan Sat 28 Nov 2015, 10:38 am

Jadeja is a CTB....crumbling track bully

by msp83 Sat 28 Nov 2015, 7:10 pm

Dhawan isn't even an FTB, KPF.
And perhaps, you should check out Jadeja's best bowling analysis as well as his top test score, where did they come? In real spinning conditions, he is deadly, but even otherwise, he can keep the runs down and keep an end tight. And his batting is eventually picking up. If he could reach his own ODI levels with the bat, that would be great for India.

by KP_fan Sat 28 Nov 2015, 8:55 pm

msp83 wrote:Dhawan isn't even an FTB, KPF.

dhawan did back to back test 100s and in BD and Lanka

and against SA he had a n.o 50, followed by a 40odd ....so he is doing OK on subconitnental pithces

And perhaps, you should check out Jadeja's best bowling analysis as well as his top test score, where did they come?

In real spinning conditions, he is deadly, but even otherwise, he can keep the runs down and keep an end tight. And his batting is eventually picking up. If he could reach his own ODI levels with the bat, that would be great for India.

his 6-fer in SA came many moons ago and since he had many tests where he was simply toothless with the ball and showed severe technical flaws with the bat.
however he holds a place when we play 3 seamers in India and can ocassionaly get a 20 or 30 odd.

when on overseas pitches where we might play at most two spinners he won't fit in
In the kohli / shastri era there is generally no room for "keep it tight" bowlers

by msp83 Sun 29 Nov 2015, 7:12 pm

Good to see Ravi Shastri talking about 'building an innings' and 'grafting out a score. Couple of months ago, he was talking up Rohit Sharma's strike rate!

by KP_fan Sun 29 Nov 2015, 8:39 pm

depends on the pitch.....on sporting pitches...you do need fast scorers
on these crumbling dust bowls grafters are necessary

by KP_fan Sun 29 Nov 2015, 8:58 pm

should India win this series 2-0 or 3-0.....Ind will comfortably rise to No.2

by msp83 Wed 02 Dec 2015, 5:48 pm

The final test of the series starting in Delhi tomorrow. India would want to finish off well, South Africa would be playing for pride. Dale Steyn isn't available for SA. It will be interesting to see whether they make some changes to the atting unit and the wicketkeeper. Dane Vilas and Styan van Zyl have been very disappointing, and if they keep their places, they can count themselves pretty lucky indeed.
For India, the 3 spinners are likely to play. Among Rohit and Aaron, who will Kohli go for? Hope to see Gurkirat, but they don't seem to want to go there yet.

by KP_fan Wed 02 Dec 2015, 6:29 pm

there was a better justification for gurkeerat to be played in ODIs.
Ind will field an unchanged side

by msp83 Wed 02 Dec 2015, 6:35 pm

Gurkirat should have been played in the ODIs for sure. And since investing in Rohit Sharma is an utter waste in tests, Gurkirat should have been the reserve batsman from the word go. But now that they've given Rohit a chance in the 3rd test, might as well give him yet another opportunity. Might just deliver that 1 special innings of the year in this game.......

by KP_fan Wed 02 Dec 2015, 7:47 pm

from what i hear.....the pitch will be not too much better than nagpur.....so expect a low scorer

by KP_fan Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:35 am

Yadav in for Mishra.......its not easy to make such decisions given that Mishra has produced some of the most magical deliveries of the series so far

by KP_fan Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:45 am

good toss to win....yet again Kohli wins the toss

by KP_fan Thu 03 Dec 2015, 9:42 am

Rahane gets to a 50 and should convert this one to a 100...to compensate for his low scores so far in the series

by KP_fan Thu 03 Dec 2015, 11:11 am

not an easy wicket to bat on.....there is bounce ( sometimes variable) added to sharp spin and Dane Piedt bowled well...unlucky not to have had Rahane ( dropped at slip) and Ashwin clear bat pad.

Dhawan & Kohli failing to convert yet another start after a lot of hard work...into something substantially bigger.

The chink in Pujara's defense...that has haunted him all throuhg his bad days has was apparent again today.......he routinely gets bowled or caught-Bat-pad at forward short Leg...because he doesn't offer a full straight bat in forward defense.

Rohit failing to start...again....he will do a "game changing 30odd " in the second inning and hold on to his spot. Dunno when India plays the next test

But selectors must intervene to ensure Gurkeerat gets look in in the next set of ODIs which will be against Pak in Lanka most likely followed by Aus series.

Rahane's class is apparent....and he will go on to get a hundred tomm.....scores a hundred in every series
can also bat fast when wickets are falling....with the lower order......in the best case India will get to 300 and in the worst case 250...which is a par score for the pitch

by msp83 Thu 03 Dec 2015, 6:47 pm

India now have the highest score of the series to their credit, and Rahane's 89 not out is the highest score of the series so far. It has been a brilliant innings from Rahane, at the same ground where in he debuted, and started his horrer home run, so the right place to turn things around......
Dhawan battled hard but didn't make it count, can't really fault Kohli for that dismissal, he didn't go defending a wide one this time, it was a total freak of a dismissal, and before that, he was batting at a level that was close to his best. Rohit was disaster as expected. The team management and supporters keep lowering the benchmark to assess his success, his 20s are treated as hundreds, a 30+ is considered like a double hundred, a 50+ is a virtual pass to play the next 15 tests without making a run. But Rohit finds ways to still underperform based on those standards. He's averaging something like 8 for the series! What an amazing talent!. And he struck his run at a rate of what? An explosive 16? And what an excellent shot selection and even better execution!
Both sides playing with 10 players in this game, Amla yet again picked Tahir and then refused to back him, and like Rohit Tahir was awful by his not so high standards!

by msp83 Thu 03 Dec 2015, 6:52 pm

And another underrated yet significant contribution from Ravindra Jadeja. He made only 24, but that came from a scoreline of 139-6, and he batted for almost a couple of hours and gave Rahane excellent support while he was at the middle. Going by the Rohit Benchmark, Jadeja's innings has to be as good as a hundred!
Not sure about dropping Mishra, you needed him to produce that special something during the big moments, when Jadeja and Ashwin alone can't do the job, when you needed that little spark....... And if they went for Yadav the 2nd seamer, then Gurkirat should certainly have played. Kohli has made selection blunders throughout his captaincy stint, but he has by and large, got away with it. Will he do so again?

by KP_fan Thu 03 Dec 2015, 7:20 pm

he will win this test( also) by a mile Wink

by KP_fan Fri 04 Dec 2015, 11:20 am

KP_fan wrote:he will win this test( also) by a mile

SA a.o 121...pitch can't be blamed....and India ahead by a few miles now Very Happy

there is a pattern developing to Kohli's captaincy....he is a very aggressive fielding / bowling captain.....and turns his aggression to potent execution....the field placements, the bowler mentality the entire team mindset and demeanor is to prey on the opponent and get wickets.....and he succeeds.

by msp83 Fri 04 Dec 2015, 2:46 pm

It was the best that I've seen India bowl in a long long time. All 4 bowlers contributed to a brilliant collective bowling performance, with Ravindra Jadeja being the standout performer. It was not one of track that had the ball doing lots of unpredictable things, the kind of tracks where Jadeja is considered unplayable. It was a pretty good track with something for everyone, good batting, good seam bowling and good spin bowling are all rewarded on the track, and Jadeja was just brilliant.
But it was not a one-man-show by any means. Both the seamers, Ishant Sharma and Umesh Yadav bowled pretty well. Ishant gave nothing away in his early spell and then got the ball to reverse, and his pace was up too. And that catch to get AB was superb! Yadav was consistently bowling above 140 KPH, and was accurate. And from his 2nd spell, he got the ball to reverse and justified the management's decision to prefer him over Varun Aaron, and even for that matter Amit Mishra. Ravichandran Ashwin took only 2 wickets, but he consistently maintained the pressure on the batsman, giving absolutely nothing away.
Ashwin's contribution with the bat in the morning was even more important. He batted like the ashwin of old after he had a bit of luck going his way early in the morning when Hashim Amla pput him down in the slip. He gave excellent support to Ajinkya Rahane, and then took the lead in the partnership with Yadav and it was a well deserved 50.
Rahane resumed from where he left off yesterday, and took his time getting to his hundred, and after he got there, went after Piedt and the seamers too. A measured innings of the highest class, reminding of the hundred he scored at the HQ last year.

by msp83 Fri 04 Dec 2015, 2:55 pm

While the bowling was brilliant from India, it was atrocious from South Africa to get bowled out for 121 on that track. Apart from AB de Villiers, it was a no show from the South African batsmen. Young Tempa Bavuma showed some promise batting out of position, but if he has to succeed as a batsman, then he has to be a lot more confident against spin. He didn't last too long v spin to make a substantive assessment, but he didn't really look all that confident against Jadeja before he eventually got out. But he did look much better than van Zyl who was a walking wicket at the top. Amla has had a dreadful tour by his high standards, and Faf du Plessis has to go a long way in playing spin.
The interesting thing is that the pitch was a good one. It was a lively track, but a lively track that rewarded good batting. And the South Africans other than AB, just didn't bat well at all.

by msp83 Fri 04 Dec 2015, 3:11 pm

Kohli had a good day in the field apart from a terrible drop. He bowled the seamers, not to prove a selection point like he did in the first test, but because they were able to bowl well and ask questions to the batsmen. Kept an attacking field too, and when the slogger in Tahir came out, he had a deep fielder well placed to take the mishit, not going for a hyper aggressive field for the sake of it.

by KP_fan Sat 05 Dec 2015, 5:38 am

a glorious career now awaits Rohit in IPL and with options to play masala leagues all over the world

by wisden Sat 05 Dec 2015, 9:16 am

Kohli goes to 50 as he and Rahane re-build the Indian innings

by KP_fan Sat 05 Dec 2015, 5:09 pm

very good test match batting by Kohli and Rahane......on a pitch not easy to score runs.....only a 190 runs in the day....is not common these days....although 9 over were short that would have made its a 210 run day...still a day of batting from a bygone era

by msp83 Sat 05 Dec 2015, 6:52 pm

Excellent innings from Virat Kohli, and Ajinkya Rahane continues from where he left off in the first innings. And India's advantage is well consolidated.
Morne Morkel was absolutely brilliant yet again. the fuller length isn't his natural length, but think Morkel has added that extra bit to his bowling, hopefully he would use the lessons from to good effect against England.

by msp83 Sat 05 Dec 2015, 7:01 pm

A bit of a tame end to Murali Vijay's series, and he got out to a wrong umpiring call in the last innings of the series. Cheteshwar Pujara got bowled yet again. Kohli's useless poke at the ball on the 6th stump and Pujara missing straight/incoming balls and getting bowled/LBW is become a pattern, and Pujara soon will have to work his way thrugh the issue.
Shikhar Dhawan showed admirable temperament and discipline in batting oor 2 hours, completely leaving out the drive outside offstump. But the South Africans kept bowling to him on that chanel, and then Morkel bowled and absolute ripper at the stumps to end his innings. Dhawan's range of shots are limited for him to try and do a Sachin Tendulkar at Sydney kind of effort to get back to form, so he will have to work on something else. But the temperament did stand out for Dhawan.
Can't say that about Wonderboy. What can be a new benchmark for Rohit, a smashing innings of 5? He is just useless in test cricket, and hopefully they are done with the stupid experiment. He couldn't play pace when he batting in Lanka and was moved down the order, he couldn't play spin in this series at 6 so he was put in at 3. He can't play test cricket, that has to be the end of it. Give someone else an opportunity....... Or play with 10 players!

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