SA in India--Test Matches

First topic message reminder :

as I said at the end of last test when many were getting worried......

India keep out Pujara again to accommodate Rohit?
OR
will Indian managment loose face and keep their pet Rohit out?

that Indians will find an explanation of convenience......and here it is from shastri...all set to show we will play 3 spinners, 1 seamer and 6 batsmen......including pujara and Rohit
and Rohit might bowll seam up posing to be the 2nd seamer if required.

Dhawan will play ahead of Rahul...understandable but everyone is on a short rope here with so well performing Rahul in the squad


Two days before the Test, team director Ravi Shastri spoke about a few of these issues. The number of bowlers, he said, depended on the conditions underfoot and overhead. Sri Lanka was oppressively hot so India needed that extra bowler there. It has cooled down in India's November now, and if the pitches turn as asked, India could beef up their batting and go with just four bowlers. The big question, then, is will this new leadership team of Virat Kohli and Shastri, who have shown an inclination towards pace, be okay with playing just the one quick?

"Tomorrow you can play four spinners if you give me a pitch that will turn on the first day," an emphatic Shastri said. "No rule that you have to play a fast bowler. West Indies played four fast bowlers in their time. No spinners. What stops a team from playing four spinners if you get a track of that kind?"

"Home conditions," Shastri added mischievously.

Meanwhile, Dhawan yet again exposed by a half decent pace attack even in Asia. I would never have picked him in Bangladesh or then in Sri Lanka in the first place, but having picked him, it was hard to look past 2 back to back hundreds (even though I don't rate the one vs Bangladesh, the ton vs SL at Galle was a fairly good one) so I think it was fair that he started this series especially as Rahul had 5 single digit scores in 6 innings in SL. Having picked him now, I reckon they have to give him one more Test as dropping after 1 bad Test at the start of a series (especially when they've won) would set a pretty dangerous precedent and the player coming in would be under immediate pressure to perform and Rahul, who got hurried by the likes of Dhammika Prasad is not guaranteed to perform any better against the likes of Steyn and Morkel. If he has another single digit Test, do you go back to Dhawan again? That'd make no sense. So Dhawan gets one more Test for me (although I'd never ever consider him for overseas Tests again irrespective of how much he scores in Asia).

msp83 wrote:There still are concerns for India though. It starts with Shikhar Dhawan. Dhawan did score tons against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, but his form before that was terrible, and he was pretty poor in the ODI series against SA. There is KL Rahul in the side, there is the management favorite Rohit Sharma too. Rahul is an opener, and they can ask Rahane or Pujara to open to include Rohit. Considering Dhawan's medium term form in the past, and his recent form overall, think he will have to go, particularly as there are only 5 batsman.
Next concern is Saha. He is a massively overrated keeper. He can't catch or stump well consistently, and he kept giving away by runs too. As a batsman too, he is nowhere near good enough to bat top 6. Saha is good enough for the odd 50, but he's not consistent with gloves or bat, he's in his 30s, so no long term investment either and he's not going to improve much by playing FC cricket. so cut the losses, bring in the more attacking Ojha, or invest in young Samson or Bains. A leftfield choice would be Rahul at 6 and keeping wickets. He did keep well in Sri Lanka, and seemed safer than Saha.......
And if the pitch is similar, there is no point playing2nd seamer, particularly someone who can't hold a bat. Ishant will be available after his ban, he should provide better control than Yadav or Aaron, so he has to be back. And think they should play the additional batsman, or if they are going for the 2nd seamer, then use someone like Bhuvneshwar who can at least hold a bat and perhaps make 15-20 runs that might be important on challenging tracks. Now that the squad is picked for 2 tests, think they should give the gloves to Rahul in place of Saha, Bhuvi and Ishant for Umesh and Aaron.

Bhuvi?????? Really??? Did you watch him bowl in the ODIs? The last time Bhuvi swung a ball, Narendra Modi was the chief Minister of Gujarat, not the Prime Minister of India!!!!!! And even at his best, he never offered anything with the old ball. Why on earth would anyone pick him for a Test in the subcontinent, even when he is bowling well, let alone now when he has been a bit of a joke recently. Surely the extra batsman is needed. Even if Rahul plays as the keeper (and it won't happen), Jadeja at 7 is still a bit too high especially as Ashwin has also not been doing too well with the bat in recent times. The extra batsman at 6 in Rohit in these conditions is a must, regardless of which keeper you play. Especially when your 5th bowling options are Bhuvi, Yadav or Aaron. All they'd do is waste the overs that could easily be bowled by the spinners. Even a part time spinner like Vijay would be of greater use on pitches like these than those 3 seamers.

ICC test rankings......SA still clearly and miles ahead of others...if India can stay focussed and wash them 4-0, we can expect a bumper harvest of ICC ranking points here

Sad to see Eng dropped to No.6


5 November 2015
Team Matches Points Rating
South Africa 24 3008 125
Pakistan 28 2977 106
Australia 32 3376 106
India 27 2710 100
New Zealand 29 2875 99
England 40 3940 99
Sri Lanka 32 2988 93

ShankyCricket wrote:Meanwhile, Dhawan yet again exposed by a half decent pace attack even in Asia. I would never have picked him in Bangladesh or then in Sri Lanka in the first place, but having picked him, it was hard to look past 2 back to back hundreds (even though I don't rate the one vs Bangladesh, the ton vs SL at Galle was a fairly good one) so I think it was fair that he started this series especially as Rahul had 5 single digit scores in 6 innings in SL. Having picked him now, I reckon they have to give him one more Test as dropping after 1 bad Test at the start of a series (especially when they've won) would set a pretty dangerous precedent and the player coming in would be under immediate pressure to perform and Rahul, who got hurried by the likes of Dhammika Prasad is not guaranteed to perform any better against the likes of Steyn and Morkel. If he has another single digit Test, do you go back to Dhawan again? That'd make no sense. So Dhawan gets one more Test for me (although I'd never ever consider him for overseas Tests again irrespective of how much he scores in Asia).

Kohli loves his 5th bowler ....... Playing Stuart Binny in international cricket is an insult to the game, they just aren't willing to consider Rishi Dhawan, and young Hartik Pandya isn't ready yet. 4 spinners will be an overkill even on spinning tracks. The squad is already picked, so they can't bring in some of the names already mentioned. Rohit, who just scored a big Ranji ton, I do have my strong doubts about his test credentials, and though people seem to be satisfied with his decent starts like 20s and 30s, I don't think the Lanka series by no means was any sort of turning point in his test career, the only worthwhile knock was that 79 that was done in the last over of the day.
If Kohli is ready to go in with 6 batsmen, then of course Rohit has to play now, and even then I believe they should just let Saha go and bring in Rahul as keeper, and then select a proper keeper batsman for the last 2 games. And I wouldn't give Dhawan another game. He has got enough chances, and he deserved his opportunities at that point of time as their replacement option was Gambhir who is yesterday's player. But Dhawan just isn't consistent enough in any conditions....... Not sure about Rahul being ready to take over though....... And with Vijay and Pujara, not sure what we need is a Jiwanjot like opener either.......
Will they make Rohit open like they do in ODIs, Will make the management happy, they wouldn't have to sacrifice a quality player like Pujara, or tinker with Rahane's settled position, and they will have their Rohit....... And then if he plays an aggressive game up front, even he can sound a bit sensible when he justifies those utterly stupid dismissals on the basis of the 'Natural Game Theory'!

KP_fan wrote:ICC test rankings......SA still clearly and miles ahead of others...if India can stay focussed and wash them 4-0, we can expect a bumper harvest of  ICC ranking points here

Sad to see Eng dropped to No.6


5 November 2015
Team Matches Points Rating
South Africa 24 3008 125
Pakistan 28 2977 106
Australia 32 3376 106
India 27 2710 100
New Zealand 29 2875 99
England 40 3940 99
Sri Lanka 32 2988 93

Msp - inevitable though following the 2-0 defeat by Pakistan. You've been very quiet on those threads since things spun out the way they did.

Have been a rather busy week, Guildford. Yasir doing quite well there. Rashid not as well as I was hopgng.......

msp83 wrote:Have been a rather busy week, Guildford. Yasir doing quite well there. Rashid not as well as I was hopgng.......

Msp - when 606v2 has its Awards Night, remind me to recommend you for Master of the Understatement.

Well, who is it you have in mind? Yasir or Rashid? I know you do have your theories on Rashid, or the Rashid-Moeen combo, think the latter is proved right, but not sure about the former. And Rashid proved himself a player of character, and has showed he has it in him with the bat too, and Ali isn't really ahead of him, as I maintained a week or so ago!
By the way, even the Saffers are producing decent enough spin options. Tahir is a bit of a wild card, but Harmer looks capable of providing his skipper some control, and also attack when the conditions let him to....... What is happening to England?

Perhaps they should consider recalling a certain offspinner with South African connection, can bat a bit too!

Srinivasan sacked as ICC chairman......Roger Binny removed as selector and shastri from IPL council to reinforce the " no conflict of interest" principle.

BCCI is making a lot of positive moves now......hope they can adapt DRS too sooner than later....


Mumbai: Ravi Shastri, who is the director of Team India till the T20 World Cup next year, has been removed from the Indian Premier League governing council. The former Indian all-rounder has been involved with IPL ever since the tournament started in 2008. (N Srinivasan Removed as ICC Chairman)
The decision to drop Shastri was taken at the BCCI's annual general meeting in Mumbai on Monday. On similar ground of conflict of interest, Roger Binny has been dropped from the senior national selectors' panel. His son Stuart is a Team India member. (Advisory Panel Comprising Ganguly, Tendulkar and Laxman Could be Scrapped)
Binny has been replaced by former wicket-keeper MSK Prasad. Binny represented South Zone on the selection panel. In another change in the selection panel, Rajinder Singh Hans (Central Zone) has been replaced by Gagan Khoda. Sandeep Patil will continue to remain as chairman.
"We can't afford to destroy Stuart Binny's career. So, we had to drop his father," explained BCCI chief Shashank Manohar to the media.
The Board has also appointed former Chief Justice of India AP Shah as an ombudsman to oversee all cases of conflict of interest featuring administrators, current and former players involved with Indian cricket. More big names could fall on the wayside.
The BCCI regime, under new president Shashank Manohar, has clearly been tough on issue of conflict of interest. The Supreme Court, while barring former president N. Srinivasan from contest BCCI elections, came down hard on cricket administrators wearing multiple hats and having commercial interest in the game.
"We have to ensure that the BCCI is clean and transparent. We are unanimous that there cannot be conflict of interest," said Manohar, adding that to eliminate all cases of conflict of interest will take about two more months.
The RM Lodha panel, constituted by the Supreme Court, is likely to recommend changes in the BCCI constitution. The Lodha panel had in July suspended Chennai Super Kings and Rajasthan Royals for two years for the 2013 IPL betting scandal.
(With inputs from Rica Roy)

Good move from the BCCI on the conflict of interest issue. Srinivasan anyways had to go long time back, Roger and Shastri, it is better to keep them out of possible conflict scenarios.
Will be interesting to see whether Stuart will be selected for the last 2 games in the test squad. I hope he won't be, but to show that there was no conflict of intrest earlier, he might find a squad place for now.......

msp83 wrote:Good move from the BCCI on the conflict of interest issue. Srinivasan anyways had to go long time back, Roger and Shastri, it is better to keep them out of possible conflict scenarios.
Will be interesting to see whether Stuart will be selected for the last 2 games in the test squad. I hope he won't be, but to show that there was no conflict of intrest earlier, he might find a squad place for now.......

you can be sure he will be in selectors plans.....that's why they released the father to retain the son.
whether he is in the next test match depends on the pitch.

It was explained though as a matter of good principle Roger stayed away from and never used the veto power as the chairman when there was any discussion on Stuart

Stuart Binny isn't a test class player. If he plays any more test cricket for India, that will be an absolute travesty! Hopefully, Hartik Pandya, who can hit them big, and bowl close to 140 KPH, can evolve into an international class player, and do that soon.

msp83 wrote:Stuart Binny isn't a test class player. If he plays any more test cricket for India, that will be an absolute travesty! Hopefully, Hartik Pandya, who can hit them big, and bowl close to 140 KPH, can evolve into an international class player, and do that soon.

Binny is Ok for overseas conditions....he can averaged 35-40 with the bat ad ball both

CI report wrote:In a huge blow for South Africa, fast bowler Vernon Philander has been ruled out of the ongoing Test series against India after twisting his left ankle during a warm-up football game in Bangalore. Philander picked up the knock after stepping on Dean Elgar's foot, and an MRI scan later confirmed that he would be out of action for up to eight weeks.

another ridiculous episode in the long list of self imposed injuries during warm-up sport

I am reminded Gavaskar said about a decade back....seeing the increasingly stern fitness drills for fast bowlers by modern trainers " these guys break-down because of the off-field training work load up on them"

Gurkeerat added as the 17th mmber to the squad at the last minute...

Now this management has been known to think deep....act fast and appoint horses for courses.

Steyn confirmed out. Philander out. So unfortunate, given the fact that the weather in Bengaluru has been wet recently, which means it would probably be humid enough to get some swing. Morkel and Rabada are more bang it in types

Philander ain't a big threat ever in my view...his biggest utility to me was his batting was quite good for a specialist bowler.

Steyn will be missed, Philander's bowling not......Indians have always found Morkel tough.......Duminy will be missed.
SA have to play naturally ...and should they win the toss they will stretch India.....
natural play and toss will make the game nearly even for SA

India again shows no fixed formula.....very flexible with their team selections, Binny in for Mishra

164/6. Like I said earlier, this isn't the most experienced team we've ever had and I'd take a narrow loss or at least one where we've been competitive. Gotta give a lot of credit to Virat. He's a lot better at this captaincy thing than I could have imagine. has a touch of the Michael Clarke about him

ABDV has been a thorn in India's flesh in every game on the tour including practise FC and practise T20s, main T20s, ODIs every inning of the tests completed so far..including his brilliant 85 today

and yet SA have been perpetually lagging in the tests matches.
India will bat fourth and won't be an easy pitch should the game go so far...

I don't think there was so much in pitch or air to warrant playing 3 seamers and bowling first after winning the toss.

nevertheless Ind needs to wind them for less than 220 and bat big in first inning.....secure atleast a 150 run lead

kingraf wrote:164/6. Like I said earlier, this isn't the most experienced team we've ever had and I'd take a narrow loss or at least one where we've been competitive. Gotta give a lot of credit to Virat. He's a lot better at this captaincy thing than I could have imagine. has a touch of the Michael Clarke about him

Hi biggest positive.....he tries to win the game with bowlers....uses them to attack, with catchers and on the look out for a wicket all the time.

even if he was moderate he would have looked good compared to Dhoni...

but he is actually good....smells blood and goes for the kill all the time......and has no fixed formulas...rotates the team composition and batting orders ever so ferequently

8 down as i write........i was thinking 220 but India might wind them for 200ish

Good partbeship. Sees us to a score frim which all is not immediate lost

perfect day for India...
avoided batting on what they thought would have been a damp pitch...although to me that was not more than a perception....
showed flexibility to back their perception with similar team slection...picked but hardly used their 3 seamers....
and yet bowled out SA for 214....
SA are just not settled...
Kohli doesn't let them settle

now 80-0 is a bonus......the've gotta go and on and get a 450 from here.....and seal the game based on first innings lead

some point ABDV will fail....and at some point Amla will fire

Early weather trouble on day 2. India's innings yet to resume.
It was a fabulous display from the 2 India spinners yesterday. Ashwin was brilliant, and Jadeja yet again proved he's the best 2nd spinner in spinning conditions. It was ridiculous that India went in with 2 seamers and a no-hoper who bowls military medium on that track. Ashwin came on as early as the 8th over, and it was he and Jadeja who did the bulk of the bowling and almost all the damage, other than that absolute corker that Hashim Amla got from Aaron.
The luck seems to be going Kohli's way, in the sense that he ends up on the right side of things often despite ridiculous team selections. If at all they needed to change the bowling attack, it was about bringing an additional proper batting potential in young Gurkirat in place of perhaps Mishra. Gurkirat is more than capable with the ball too, and unlike Binny, he does have the potential to be a quality batsman at the top level. Hopefully, Stuart can score a few runs when his turn comes so that the selection does not end up being totally ridiculous. There is no Steyn, there is no Philander, He's playing at his home ground. this is Binny's best chance to make a few against a quality outfit.......

Looks like one of those days when the stupid weather will be the only winner!

msp wrote: It was ridiculous that India went in with 2 seamers and a no-hoper who bowls military medium on that track. Ashwin came on as early as the 8th over, and it was he and Jadeja who did the bulk of the bowling and almost all the damage, other than that absolute corker that Hashim Amla got from Aaron.
The luck seems to be going Kohli's way, in the sense that he ends up on the right side of things often despite ridiculous team selections.

saying goes....A real man makes his own luck

Kohli is proactive, aggressive and uses bowlers to set up and win games...
very reminiscent of Imran khan on the 1987 tour of India....

But Binny isn't a bowler, KPF. Nor is he a batsman. He's a bits and pieces player who is not good enough for international cricket.

msp83 wrote:But Binny isn't a bowler, KPF. Nor is he a batsman. He's a bits and pieces player who is not good enough for international cricket.

he averaged 47 in the last 3 or 4 seasons with the bat....in A league Ranji for champions Karnataka with a lot of premium runs in the knock out stages
and about 30+ with the ball in those 3 seaosns.

he may not be earth shattering...but lends a balance or even a perception of balance...whihc allows the captain and team to perform with confidence and closer to their upside.

3 test match wins in a row for Kohli.......and a strong upper-hand in this test.....in a position to force a result if we get even 4 full days.
and has come close to winning every test he has captained....primarily because he attacks and relies on bowlers to win tests...and he is able to do that because of confidence of having 5 bowlers in hand even if he doesn't need all of them.

We are already at the start of the golden era for India in tests.....enjoy it, relish it......instead burning yourself in some irrational grudge.

Yeah, its a good start to Kohli's captaincy, but lets not jump the gun too early. Dhoni's last 6 tests at home were all big wins.......
And 5 bowlers have to mean 5 bowlers, or they should have a 6th batsman who can bowl. Binny is neither, his international record is mediocre. If it it would have been Dhoni who would have dropped Mishra for this test, I am sure you would have hit the roof, and would have already smashed it!!!

Well weve been horribly outplayed for the first two tests and are probably lucky to be looking at only one down after two tests.

The problem for South Africa is been that AB hasn't been getting much support from the batting unit. Amla has hit a rough patch at a terrible time. They needed him to be on top his game during this series, as the rest of the lineup isn't really great v spin as such. Elgar is a fighter, and van Zyl has shown that he has the potential. But they both haven't really produced the substantive test knocks really, and Faf hasn't turned up for the test series after a spectacular ODI series. Faf and Amla are class acts and will surely come to their own at some point in the series, but India would hope that the law of averages will catch up with AB by that time........

Have you checked Faf's Test record in Asia? Its worse than Rohit's outside Asia.

His overall record is pretty good though, and he hasn't played that much in Asia. But among SA's 3 big guns, he's the weakest.......
BTW, why on earth has cricinfo categorized him as 'allrounder'?

They the weather is set to be decent tomorrow. There is only 1 side that has an outside chance of winning this one, how will Kohli go about it? If India can get close to the SA score by lunch or so, will he declare and challenge SA? A result even then will be highly unlikely, but if the Indian bowlers can chip out a few wickets, that might impose greater pressure on the SA batsmen for the rest of the series, the likes of Faf are already approaching the tracks in a rather negative mindset.......

will they make an early start? and give a 100 overs

india bat 60 over....get 300 runs....lead by 145...and bowl SA out in 40 overs....

naah.....can't even dream of it...but Ind should bat positively tomm

An early start only by 15 minutes, but the day can be extended. Looks like getting in a hundred overs would be the plan. I would say bat 40 overs, get a 50 run lead, then try and bowl SA out in the next 40 overs for 120-140 and then chase it down.
Or else, they might start late due to a wet outfield, India might have a collapse in the midst of a Shikhar Dhawan 70-80, and then SA will bat through the day with Amla and Faf finding form and confidence for the next game. An outright result is the least possible outcome.......
Stupid rain!

"I am very surprised we lost four days of cricket here, I really didn't think that would happen," Amla said.
"Unfortunately, we did not bat well but I think the Test was still in the balance after the first day because a lot of time was left."

Ha ha ....who are you kiddin...amla-bhai

Very unusual to see four consecutive days of any Test rained off these days with modern drainage. When did that last happen?

Not sure the Bengalure drainage really worked all that well. Yesterday there was rain free time half way up to the day but not a single ball could be bowled because of the outfieldn't wasn't quite ready. Even today it was outfield rather than actual rain during playing time that washed out most of the day. They'll have to do something about it.......

de Lange in as cover for Dale Steyn for the rest of the series. India are unchanged for the rest of the series.
Meanwhile, there are questions on Dane Vilas' place in the SA side, it is unlikely he'll be dropped as it might just be far too much for AB to take the gloves at this stage in the series where in no other batsmen have contributed anything much. Did South Africa made a mistake in not keeping de Kock in after he recovered form in the ODI series and the A series before that? I did say at the time of the selection that perhaps they should have kept him in the squad, after the end of the ODI series, he was miles ahead of Vilas.......

After the weather inflicted 2nd test and the subsequent long actionless period, the series resumes tomorrow. The 3rd test is to be payed at the Vidarbha Cricket Association Stadium Nagpur.
The track is expected to take spin, so India's stupid experiment with the dibbli-dobbler who can't bat should end. It will be interesting though, to see who would come in for Binny. Will it be Amit Mishra or will it be Rohit Sharma? Think they should give young Gurkirat an opportunity on such a track, can add to the batting, and can bowl some more than useful spin. Think it'll be Mishra though....... Whether they will play both the seamers is the other question, or will Varun Aaron be sitting out? Umesh Yadav is likely to sit out on his home ground, though he had picked up a hat trick in a Ranji game last week.......

For South Africa, Dale Steyn is all but confirmed to be out injured. The question though is whether they'll have JP Duminy as the 2nd spinner or will Simon Harmer play along with Imran Tahir?

i think India will play following

1) Vijya
2) Dhawan
3) Pujara
4) Kohli
5) Rahane
6) Saha
7) Binny
8) Jadeja
9) Mishra
10) ashwin
11) Yadav or Aaron

I don't mind if they play Gurkeerat as 4 spinner instead of Binny....but I dunno how much they will be able to use 4th spinner

India 69-2, having won the toss and batting first on a dry looking track. The openers gone before lunch, Shikhar Dhawan offering a return catch to Elgar for not much to his name, and Murali Vijay, who got his 4th start of the series in 4 innings, trapped LBW by a fine delivery from Morne Morkel for 40. Pujara and skipper Kohli in the middle.
India went in with 2 changes, Stuart Binny left out and in comes Rohit Sharma, and Varun Aaron out and Amit Mishra back in. Rohit has the fair claim to the 6th batsman position, so fair enough, particularly as they've got Mishra in as the 3rd frontline spinner. If they'd not have gone for Mishra as the 3rd spinner, then I'd have liked to see Gurkirat given a run.......
As for South Africa, Abbott goes out and Simon Harmer in, and the offspinner is bowling very well at the moment though he hasn't picked up a wicket yet.......

India 102-3. Last man out is Cheteshwar Pujara, LBW to to the deserving Simon Harmer.
With both Pujara and Vijay, India's best players of spin already back in the hut, SA bowlers would be fancying their chances here. Rahane has only 25 runs from his 4 tests innings at home, and Rohit is, well Rohit. Saha has his limitations, so India in a bit of trouble.......

Morkel bowling absolutely brilliantly, he's really standing up here, overcoming the conditions like Steyn! And Ajinkya Rahane's poor home record continues. Another failure for him in a home test....
Can Rohit deliver? India would be hoping he does.......
India 115-4.

msp83 wrote:Morkel bowling absolutely brilliantly, he's really standing up here, overcoming the conditions like Steyn! And Ajinkya Rahane's poor home record continues. Another failure for him in a home test....
Can Rohit deliver? India would be hoping he does.......
India 115-4.

actually the conditions are suited for reverse and pace...the pitch is crumbling top powder...so dry and scruffy and the overhead conditions also dry....that there is reverse for anyone who can bowl fast and knows how to reverse.
Morkel is unplayable and pitch not easy to score runs off.

Ishant knows how to exploit these conditions well........

India needs to scramble through all these lower order "allrounders" and find a way to get to 250+