Superb article on the Pro12 and Europe

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 11:59 am

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/the-declining-power-of-pro12-in-europe/

We are only a few games in to the new European Champions Cup tournament but already we have seen the best the Pro12 can offer being humbled by their French and English counterparts.

The reigning Pro12 champions Glasgow Warriors lost at home to Northampton Saints, Ulster were humbled at the Kingspan to Saracens while down in Llanelli not even a farcical red card awarded to a Racing Metro player could even up the tie as the Scarlets were defeated to effectively end their hopes in this year’s competition.

The decline in the Pro12

Things are not looking good on the Pro12 front. Last year the Pro12 provided just one team for the quarter finals but we could potentially find ourselves in the situation towards the end of the season where we have an all Anglo-French quarter final line up. This isn’t good for the game in the northern hemisphere.

As the graph below shows, the Pro12 has consistently contributed at least two of the tournament’s quarter finalists – usually Irish teams, with the dominance of Leinster and Munster being augmented by a recently resurgent Ulster.

The other noticeable trend is the drop off in Welsh representation post the 2009/10 season, save for Cardiff Blues’ appearance in the 2011/12 quarter final.

Heineken quarters

To be a strong and popular tournament the European Champions Cup needs as many teams and nations to be competitive as it can. The way the club and regional rugby scene is evolving in Europe we are in serious danger of having the Pro12 teams from the 4 nations being uncompetitive at the top level in Europe.

We will now look at each Pro12 nation and their historical success and future prospects.

Ireland

Ireland has consistently provided strong teams that have had great success in Europe; in fact they have dominated the tournament in certain phases of its history.

Between the 2005/06 season and the 2011/12 season Ireland had 5 of the 7 winners of what was called the Heineken Cup – Munster winning it twice and Leinster 3 times. Ulster joined in on the act in 2012 when an all-Ireland affair in Twickenham saw Leinster take away the trophy for the third time.

But since that day in south west London the Euro bubble seems to have burst for the Irish teams. They have still contributed teams to the knock out stages but the last 3 finals have not contained a single Irish team; just Leinster made it to the quarter finals last year.

This year’s tournament hasn’t started particularly well either. Dai Young’s Wasps defeated Leinster convincingly in their own back yard last week and they followed that up with an away defeat at Bath while Ulster suffered a home defeat to Saracens.

Munster seem to be in a fairly rapid state of decline so they won’t relish having to come out of a group which contains Leicester Tigers and Stade Francais. If there is one team that raises its performances in European competition it is Munster but their form this season to date doesn’t bode well for progression out of the group.

It is conceivable there will be no Irish team in the quarter finals come April next year.

Italy

Since their introduction to the top tier of European rugby, Italian teams have always struggled to be competitive against Europe’s elite.

Benetton Treviso have made the best fist of the Italian clubs but even their record is fairly modest; in 18 full seasons of European rugby they have won just 19 games. A more depressing statistic is that in the last 10 full seasons they have only recorded 5 victories – Ospreys (H 14/15), Ospreys (H 12/13), Biarritz (H 11/12), Perpignan (H 9/10) and NG Dragons (A 7/8).

This season they have again found the going tough with heavy defeats away at Munster (32-7) and at home to Leicester (3-36).

Just a couple of seasons ago there were glimmers of hope that Treviso were starting to put together a team that could be more competitive. In the 2012/13 Pro12 season they finished a commendable 7th out of 12 teams – far above their traditional position in the bottom couple of spots.

Although they only notched up a single win, they came 2 minutes away from beating Leicester at home and put in two commendable performances against Toulouse.

Treviso rugby seemed on the up but a number of factors have conspired to put Treviso back to the bottom of the European pile.

Scotland

Scotland’s European representatives have also found it hard to make a lasting mark in European rugby.

Glasgow Warriors’ recent improvements at the Pro12 level haven’t translated to success at European level and the reigning Pro12 champions already looking unlikely to progress beyond this year’s group stage following a home defeat to Northampton Saints.

Since a solitary quarter final appearance in the early days of the Heineken Cup, Glasgow have failed to get out of their group in the top European competition.

Edinburgh have been slightly more successful with the highlight being a semi-final appearance in the 2011/12 season. This was an exceptional season for the team and represents the only time they have got out of the pool in the last 10 seasons.

They now play in the second tier European Challenge Cup.

Wales

It is a sad reality that the Welsh regions have not been troubling the latter stages of the top European competition since the 2011/12 season when the Cardiff Blues made it out of their pool before being thumped by Leinster 34-3 in the quarter final in Dublin.

Since then, the civil war within the Welsh game has conspired to reduce the strength of the regions to the point where they cannot compete against the powerhouse teams from France, England and Ireland.

It wasn’t that long ago that Cardiff Blues were ranked in the top seeds group for the Heineken Cup (the 2012/13 season) and just losing to Leicester in a penalty goal decided semi-final (2008/09), but with the team now playing in the second tier Challenge Cup (and losing to Sale’s second team at home) a brighter future seems a long way off.

The Ospreys’ zenith came between 2007 and 2010 when they played 3 quarter finals but couldn’t quite make the leap to achieve a semi final spot. Since then their stock has fallen to the point where they finished last season with a comprehensive home defeat to Northampton Saints and followed this up with a humbling defeat to Treviso.

With the French giants Clermont in the Ospreys’ pool this year, progressing to the quarter finals will be a very difficult task.

Llanelli Scarlets have arguably been the best performing Welsh team in Europe over the years with a semi-final spot in the 2006/07 season their highlight. The Scarlets recent performances though have mirrored the pattern in the other Welsh teams – a gradual decline to the point where they are not expected to make the knock out stages of the top European competition.

With two teams in the second tier competition and the Ospreys and Scarlets struggling in the Champions Cup, having a Welsh region get to the quarter finals of the Champions Cup looks unlikely for the foreseeable future.

Can the decline be halted?

There are probably two main factors at play which is driving the changes we are seeing.

The first is that the Pro12 teams have large numbers of players that have been away on international duty and therefore it will take longer for them to integrate back in to the domestic set up. This is particularly true for the likes of Glasgow, Leinster and the Ospreys who effectively contribute their first team squad to international duty.

A constant theme on theblitzdefence articles is the balance between a strong domestic league and ensuring a competitive national team. It is no coincidence that over the past few years the Welsh and Irish national teams have been strong because they have been given prominence over the regional teams, while the opposite is true in England and France.

The second factor, which is more structural, is we are seeing the impact of the asymmetrical distribution of money and resources across the European leagues filtering through to the performances on the field.

The obvious examples are the huge playing squads and resources of the French teams which means they can mop up some of the best players in the world and have benches that are as strong as some teams first XV. It is not surprising that these teams are beating those with much smaller budgets.

Those teams with the money and the ability to generate more income will be in the big markets of France and England. They have the benefit of wealthy investors, large domestic markets and with that comes TV deals and more money.

It is difficult to see the Pro12 teams competing with the growing financial muscle of France and England given their respective populations and wealth, in fact we would go as far to say it will be impossible to compete if the current trends continue.

The only possible means of keeping up with the big nations’ financial clout is the emergence of a UK-Irish league which would include the Pro12 nations and allow them to share in the wealth that comes from the larger market.

Until that time comes (if it ever does) expect to see the continued gradual decline in the competitiveness of the Pro12 teams at the top European table. The ladder is being pulled up and the Pro12 needs to find a way to quickly grab hold before they are left too far behind.

by lostinwales Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:32 pm

Money does weight things but with a couple of exceptions there is an ebb and flow to European rugby.

There have been plenty of 'why can't the AP teams perform in Europe' articles over the years while Irish (then French) teams were winning everything.

The exceptions are of course the Welsh and Scottish regions. These teams have almost always been under represented at the business end of the European cup

by TJ Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:36 pm

Chunky - if you hate the pro 12 and the rest of rugby so much why don't you please go away from these boards? A never ending stream of threads and posts from you all of which are relentlessly negative. You really are not wanted here you know. Please go away

by VinceWLB Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:42 pm

TJ, look at the result of the pro 12 teams at the weekend, there is a problem and questions have to be raised.

1st step would have been getting better deals out of Sky and to a lesser extent Guinness.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:51 pm

lostinwales wrote:Money does weight things but with a couple of exceptions there is an ebb and flow to European rugby.

There have been plenty of 'why can't the AP teams perform in Europe' articles over the years while Irish (then French) teams were winning everything.

The exceptions are of course the Welsh and Scottish regions. These teams have almost always been under represented at the business end of the European cup

Exactly. We can't just change the competition every time somebody isn't winning. For the Irish sides the reality is that we have less NIQ players and those we do have are of a lesser quality than before. Add to that the lack of quality depth and (at least for Ulster) a worrying lack of talented young players coming through the ranks and the momentum is going to shift to the teams that can provide both.

However it would be naive to ignore the likes of Toulon and those who have broken the salary cap etc. This is obviously going to make the whole competition a lot more difficult to be competitive.

by Stone Motif Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:56 pm

TJ wrote:Chunky - if you hate the pro 12 and the rest of rugby so much why don't you please go away from these boards? A never ending stream of threads and posts from you all of which are relentlessly negative. You really are not wanted here you know. Please go away

You donut

Play the ball not the man

by TJ Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:00 pm

Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

by broadlandboy Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:05 pm

Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

by SecretFly Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:19 pm

What Pro12-specific European decline are we talking about?

The specifically Irish decline is the only notable one I'm seeing.

One or two of the Provinces will be back in time.... and let's not even write off this year yet. But in the meantime, it should be cause for celebration within the regions. Afterall, the Provinces might focus more on Pro12, making the League more 'competitive' and ending the many criticisms Provinces have taken in recent years from outside the league and from within. The League's importance has a chance to grow. Was that not the arguments given by the Regions and fans of the regions when they fully supported the rule changes and new 'ownership' of the European product? Harder qualification for Europe will focus minds more on bread-and-butter League? All that reasoning has now been binned for a shiny new model?

Look at how English rugby is said to be in a state of growth over the last five years or so, with much more hard paced attacking rugby being played by more AP sides (and more money.... Whistle

for some) ....yet still they wait for a European win eight years after their last one. Despite the fortunes in Europe, the outlook is still up though, still positive.

So everything is cyclical. Provinces have dipped undoubtedly in European terms. Nothing lasts forever. All the better for Pro12?

Wales have just emerged from a bruising few years where they've all been fighting with themselves and with most of the folks around them. Now they have a chance to settle down, bed down and grow under the new unity-of-purpose agenda and under new WRU leadership. All the better for Pro12?

No! - Off go the never-content again to tear it all up again in their minds within a year and they instantly begin howling for something else?

Yeah, that's a sure fire path to consistency and a crisp way of putting rugby that's played on-the-field back under full focus, where it should be.

Nope, not good enough for the campaigners. Let's keep talking instead about politics and sponsorship deals, money and salaries, share of profits and market value, investors etc etc. The grass is always greener somewhere else. The party in the neighbours is always better than the one in your own home.

Growth, consolidation, growth, merger, growth, perfect world. We all know where that concept went globally some years ago - the gutter.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:21 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Chunky can never adequately answer this,he is only here to complain and gripe.Chunky's personal motto should be "misery loves company".

by Stone Motif Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:22 pm

TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

by Stone Motif Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:24 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Chunky can never adequately answer this,he is only here to complain and gripe.Chunky's personal motto should be "misery loves company".

Because they don't have the player base to grow pro club rugby on their own.

by TJ Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:28 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

It is not either a sensible solution nor one that is possible - and the pro 12 ( not your racist spelling) is doing just fine.

by eirebilly Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:29 pm

Although I do love Munster being good in Europe and as much as I love the competition, the money that French teams invest in it and the stars from overseas, its killing their national team as their good young players are not getting the exposure at the highest club level.

The French will realise this eventually, stop the investing in foreign players and the status quo will return.

by Guest Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:32 pm

VinceWLB wrote:TJ, look at the result of the pro 12 teams at the weekend, there is a problem and questions have to be raised.

1st step would have been getting better deals out of Sky and to a lesser extent Guinness.

Why would you expect a better SKY deal? It's a very good deal considering the limit of games they broadcast, and considering some of the games they are able to broadcast. SKY also came on board during the bitter fight between WRU and RRW, as did Guinness. We should be very thankful that Pro12 managed to attract such big names at that time.

by Pot Hale Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:32 pm

There is nothing superb about this article at all and it provides no insights and reaches no conclusions that are new.

Results of Pro12 teams were known already. Irish teams not doing as well in European Cup due to English and French teams having more money from the deals they struck has been said many times.

The emergence of a Franglo-style cup was inevitable and forecast over 18 months ago.

The suggestion of a British and Irish league has also been heavily promoted. The argument in this article to have one has very little substance to support it.

Right now, the English teams believe they can compete with the majority of the French teams.

They have no interest in joining forces with a league with 9 teams who have never competed at the serious end of the European cup and the other 3 who are rapidly fading forces.

There's nothing in it for them. The ring fencing of the English league is due to happen shortly and that will put an end to that notion.

The Pro 12 teams face a tough future with their finances and increasing player costs. The likelihood of the European cup knockout stages becoming a Franglo Cup was wholly predictable.

by Cyril Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:41 pm

eirebilly wrote:Although I do love Munster being good in Europe and as much as I love the competition, the money that French teams invest in it and the stars from overseas, its killing their national team as their good young players are not getting the exposure at the highest club level.

The French will realise this eventually, stop the investing in foreign players and the status quo will return.

Possibly, but for a lot of French the Top 14/club rugby is the pinnacle and much, much more important than the national side. I'd say the atmosphere in some of the Top 14 games is the best in the world, with the most passionate fans. International fans are often much more fair weather and fickle. Who is to say that they're wrong in having their priorities this way around? There are different mindsets across the European nations, hence all the problems with reaching an agreement over the new competition. Some nations have 'club' sides exisiting mostly to feed the national side and some have other interests.

I think the relative poor form of the French national side is as much connected to poor coaching and managenment than foreign player influx in the Top 14. Having 14 sides means you can absorb a lot of non French-qualified players.

by VinceWLB Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:53 pm

Munchkin wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:TJ, look at the result of the pro 12 teams at the weekend, there is a problem and questions have to be raised.

1st step would have been getting better deals out of Sky and to a lesser extent Guinness.

Why would you expect a better SKY deal? It's a very good deal considering the limit of games they broadcast, and considering some of the games they are able to broadcast. SKY also came on board during the bitter fight between WRU and RRW, as did Guinness. We should be very thankful that Pro12 managed to attract such big names at that time.

And it's time to get better deals now. The free to air tv is nice for the casual fans but it's working against us in the long term and we are starting to see the results now. It is time to get Sky exclusively and get a decent deal or the gap will continue to widen.

by Pot Hale Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:55 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Chunky can never adequately answer this,he is only here to complain and gripe.Chunky's personal motto should be "misery loves company".

Because they don't have the player base to grow pro club rugby on their own.

Could you expand on this point, please? The English are regularly touted as having the largest player base in the world.

by VinceWLB Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:55 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Did you watch the last World Cup?

by Stone Motif Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:57 pm

TJ wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

It is not either a sensible solution nor one that is possible - and the pro 12 ( not your racist spelling) is doing just fine.

It's the only solution.

Racist Laugh

by No 7&1/2 Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:03 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Did you watch the last World Cup?

Yup. So why would the PRL want any change?

by VinceWLB Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Did you watch the last World Cup?

Yup. So why would the PRL want any change?

I would say time for the RFU and other unions to step in or the gap between NH and SH nations will continue to widen.

by Guest Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:05 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:TJ, look at the result of the pro 12 teams at the weekend, there is a problem and questions have to be raised.

1st step would have been getting better deals out of Sky and to a lesser extent Guinness.

Why would you expect a better SKY deal? It's a very good deal considering the limit of games they broadcast, and considering some of the games they are able to broadcast. SKY also came on board during the bitter fight between WRU and RRW, as did Guinness. We should be very thankful that Pro12 managed to attract such big names at that time.

And it's time to get better deals now. The free to air tv is nice for the casual fans but it's working against us in the long term and we are starting to see the results now. It is time to get Sky exclusively and get a decent deal or the gap will continue to widen.

The gap is going to widen anyway. We are not going to be able to compete with France in terms of broadcasting revenue. Full stop. If SKY want exclusive rights, then they are going to have to offer much more than the current combination, but even then it won't be anywhere close to what T14 are getting, or AP.
For Pro12 teams to succeed, we need to continue to develop the game from grassroots up. It's the only way for us. A B&I would not help us, and likely kill off certain Pro12 teams.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would the English/PRL share their market with other nations.

Did you watch the last World Cup?

Yup. So why would the PRL want any change?

I would say time for the RFU and other unions to step in or the gap between NH and SH nations will continue to widen.

But the English already have great players coming through. The main point though is why the PRLwould want it, not the RFU.

by SecretFly Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:09 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

How so a Millstone? In the perfect world a B&I League table would look like this?

1. Saracens
2. Ospreys
3. Glasgow
4. Bath
5. Leinster
6. Cardiff
7. Quinns
8. Munster
9. Scarlets
10. Leicester
11. Exeter
12. Ulster
13. Dragons
14. Saints
15. Edinburgh
16. Wasps
17. Connacht
18. Gloucester
19. Newcastle Falcons
20. Sale
21. London Irish
22. Worcester

Number One - that's a mighty big League if everyone wants a slice! Cool

If it's obviously sliced into a more realistic 12 or 14 teams, then it's Catch 22 because, straight away, not everyone will be happy at the 'perfect' solution. And some would wish they'd never Championed it.

Number Two - the League placings would never look like that above (even a realistic list would not have so many Pro12 stalwart sides securing so many top places)
It's a fantasy to think biggest would still not be best -
The top English sides would have more money - always. No matter how much more money each Pro12 side got from a 'bigger' League, the English top sides would reap more; - more resources to steal best players from the Nations on the edge, more resources to employ best coaches in the world, bigger audiences, bigger sponsorship demands. So the perfect world of a B&I League with many of the Pro12 sides competing strongly for top is a fantasy that doesn't become any more real with repeated telling.

The constant inference from supporters of a B&I League is either a far too rosey opinion of where'd they'd compete in one (naturally the top??) - or - a happy kind of resignation that placement would be of little consequence, but that more supporters would simply come to enjoy games against English sides. The team would be happier playing English sides, the fans would love seeing those games, more money would come in and no fan would really care that their Regions still operated at the bottom of the League. Is that a genuine definition of ambition?

Millstone..........?

So let's not explain how a B&I would work.... let's instead explain to a Pro12 supporter how a new B&I model would benefit them. Tell us why perfection would be achieved for all. All sides playing play-offs each year...all sides attracting biggest sponsorship deals, all sides having the funds to outbid each other each season for 'best' players and 'best' coaches.... Everyone having a ball - no doldrums for anyone. Explain the benefits in detail.

by Sin é Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:34 pm

But since that day in south west London the Euro bubble seems to have burst for the Irish teams. They have still contributed teams to the knock out stages but the last 3 finals have not contained a single Irish team; just Leinster made it to the quarter finals last year.

eh no, Leinster made it to the semis last year (and just lost away to Toulon 25-20).

Munster had successive semis previous to that.

by Marshes Sun 22 Nov 2015, 4:33 pm

No offence meant to the Welsh sides here because the situation would be the same for Connacht, but aside from Ospreys the regions would get mullered in an all British Isles league, most definitely so in the long run. They struggle for consistency in a smaller league, how would they fair in a joint one.

The only way England would come to the table over a joint league would be if there was promotion and relegation so they can maintain the levels of professional players, and would not be happy for Wales, Ireland and Scotland to have secured places in the top league (very reasonably so). The teams finishing bottom of the Pro 12 would be the ones that suffer and last season, aside from the Italian teams, that would Cardiff, Dragons, Edinbugh, Connacht and Scarlets.

Why would you gamble on destroying a brand Wales have been a part of building and is increasing attendances to consign most of your regions to a second league combined with England's and the Pro 12 lesser teams?

How do you propose it would work Chunky?

by mikey_dragon Sun 22 Nov 2015, 4:54 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

It is not either a sensible solution nor one that is possible - and the pro 12 ( not your racist spelling) is doing just fine.

It's the only solution.

Racist

Bickering aside as I'm not taking sides, the former was a nonsensical response to the article (which is a fair article and highlights factual yet worrying facts) - I'm sure Chunky and you Stone can stand by your point without having to respond with more nonsense. Also, claiming that 'jibe' is racist was rather silly and very liberal.

My take on it, we're all crap right now. I think and I hope it's just a blip as the article alludes to that somewhat. There might be another blip next year with the Lions tour - we can only wait and see. One thing is for certain, the French teams will remain dominant for many years to come with some token Irish and English on their tails. The article in the post also claims Munster are on the slide - that's not true. They're actually improving.

by TJ Sun 22 Nov 2015, 4:58 pm

Liberal is a compliment! We are not in america where it is an insult and that jibe is certainly used in a racist way.

by The Great Aukster Sun 22 Nov 2015, 5:00 pm

WOW, this article is superb in it's lack of evidence, to support a left field conclusion!

It acknowledges how the World Cup is skewing results, but suggests those results (from only one game in some cases) should require a total restructure of the League. What nonsense.

Blitzdefence wrote:The second factor, which is more structural, is we are seeing the impact of the asymmetrical distribution of money and resources across the European leagues filtering through to the performances on the field.

What a revelation - those with the most money have the best players. Now there's a turn up for the books. There is nothing asymmetrical about it, the biggest populations are the ones that attract the biggest interest from sponsors and TV. However the League is structured it will not increase a country's population.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:07 pm

Marshes wrote:No offence meant to the Welsh sides here because the situation would be the same for Connacht, but aside from Ospreys the regions would get mullered in an all British Isles league, most definitely so in the long run. They struggle for consistency in a smaller league, how would they fair in a joint one.

The only way England would come to the table over a joint league would be if there was promotion and relegation so they can maintain the levels of professional players, and would not be happy for Wales, Ireland and Scotland to have secured places in the top league (very reasonably so). The teams finishing bottom of the Pro 12 would be the ones that suffer and last season, aside from the Italian teams, that would Cardiff, Dragons, Edinbugh, Connacht and Scarlets.

Why would you gamble on destroying a brand Wales have been a part of building and is increasing attendances to consign most of your regions to a second league combined with England's and the Pro 12 lesser teams?

How do you propose it would work Chunky?

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:Although I do love Munster being good in Europe and as much as I love the competition, the money that French teams invest in it and the stars from overseas, its killing their national team as their good young players are not getting the exposure at the highest club level.

The French will realise this eventually, stop the investing in foreign players and the status quo will return.

Good luck with taking Mourad to court on that one.

by Pot Hale Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote:No offence meant to the Welsh sides here because the situation would be the same for Connacht, but aside from Ospreys the regions would get mullered in an all British Isles league, most definitely so in the long run. They struggle for consistency in a smaller league, how would they fair in a joint one.

The only way England would come to the table over a joint league would be if there was promotion and relegation so they can maintain the levels of professional players, and would not be happy for Wales, Ireland and Scotland to have secured places in the top league (very reasonably so). The teams finishing bottom of the Pro 12 would be the ones that suffer and last season, aside from the Italian teams, that would Cardiff, Dragons, Edinbugh, Connacht and Scarlets.

Why would you gamble on destroying a brand Wales have been a part of building and is increasing attendances to consign most of your regions to a second league combined with England's and the Pro 12 lesser teams?

How do you propose it would work Chunky?

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

I'm sure everyone has read the old topic avidly. If you want to move the discussion on, then you need to add something to this new topic that you have chosen to start along with many others.

Pointing to an old topic doesn't cut it.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:25 pm

Pot Hale wrote:[
I'm sure everyone has read the old topic avidly.

Evidently not, as the questions in your post prove.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:32 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:[
I'm sure everyone has read the old topic avidly.

Evidently not, as the questions in your post prove.

We have all read that thread, and your complete failure to answer any serious questions with anything other than la-la land fantasy.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:[
I'm sure everyone has read the old topic avidly.

Evidently not, as the questions in your post prove.

We have all read that thread, and your complete failure to answer any serious questions with anything other than la-la land fantasy.

Evidently not. Because i'M still getting questions that are answered in the first post of it.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:36 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:[
I'm sure everyone has read the old topic avidly.

Evidently not, as the questions in your post prove.

We have all read that thread, and your complete failure to answer any serious questions with anything other than la-la land fantasy.

Evidently not. Because i'M still getting questions that are answered in the first post of it.

I repeat the bold bit

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:37 pm

Do you want to ask me a question?

by TJ Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:53 pm

Don't feed the troll - guys just ignore this childish little troll - if you keep giving him attention he will thrive - ignore him he might go away

by Sin é Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:06 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Although I do love Munster being good in Europe and as much as I love the competition, the money that French teams invest in it and the stars from overseas, its killing their national team as their good young players are not getting the exposure at the highest club level.

The French will realise this eventually, stop the investing in foreign players and the status quo will return.

Good luck with taking Mourad to court on that one.

The Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier which is used for the airstrikes on Isis is based in Toulon's large French naval base. This might put a few foreign players off moving there! I know I'd think twice about either going to a sporting event or moving there.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:19 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Do you want to ask me a question?

No. I have read your answers already and know what quality to expect. Your blind belief that a B&I League plus (if it even still exists) what would then be a devalued Europe competition would deliver significantly more income than AP/Pro12 and Europe currently deliver betrays you. Combined BT ans Sky would pay very little more for a new competition and your constant insistence that they would pay over the odds because it is the only way such a tournament would get off the ground is ridiculous.

If there are issues with Pro12, do not expect PRL to show any generosity - they would only countenance a B&I if it favoured them, instead fix the root cause of any problems you have.

So to summarise - the TV companies would not pay the money a B&I League would need and the English clubs would insist on getting more than they get from the current competitions in any case.

by Cardiff Dave Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:21 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

It is not either a sensible solution nor one that is possible - and the pro 12 ( not your racist spelling) is doing just fine.

It's the only solution.

Racist

Thought you were a cyclist?

by carpet baboon Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Do you want to ask me a question?

No. I have read your answers already and know what quality to expect. Your blind belief that a B&I League plus (if it even still exists) what would then be a devalued Europe competition would deliver significantly more income than AP/Pro12 and Europe currently deliver betrays you. Combined BT ans Sky would pay very little more for a new competition and your constant insistence that they would pay over the odds because it is the only way such a tournament would get off the ground is ridiculous.

If there are issues with Pro12, do not expect PRL to show any generosity - they would only countenance a B&I if it favoured them, instead fix the root cause of any problems you have.it

So to summarise - the TV companies would not pay the money a B&I League would need and the English clubs would insist on getting more than they get from the current competitions in any case.

More importantly 2 major road blocks to this fantasy B & I super league.

Bath
Saracens.

It's no longer a fantasy, the prl and these two clubs are driving for the prl to oversea all professional rugby up to and including the international team.
Why on earth would they give up there total dominance of there own insular league where there have the RFU overall barrel to pick a fright with the welsh Scottish and Irish union's?

It's not in there interest to even entertain the idea.

It's dead. Never going to happen.

by stub Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:50 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Do you want to ask me a question?

No. I have read your answers already and know what quality to expect. Your blind belief that a B&I League plus (if it even still exists) what would then be a devalued Europe competition would deliver significantly more income than AP/Pro12 and Europe currently deliver betrays you. Combined BT ans Sky would pay very little more for a new competition and your constant insistence that they would pay over the odds because it is the only way such a tournament would get off the ground is ridiculous.

If there are issues with Pro12, do not expect PRL to show any generosity - they would only countenance a B&I if it favoured them, instead fix the root cause of any problems you have.it

So to summarise - the TV companies would not pay the money a B&I League would need and the English clubs would insist on getting more than they get from the current competitions in any case.

More importantly 2 major road blocks to this fantasy B & I super league.

Bath
Saracens.

It's no longer a fantasy, the prl and these two clubs are driving for the prl to oversea all professional rugby up to and including the international team.
Why on earth would they give up there total dominance of there own insular league where there have the RFU overall barrel to pick a fright with the welsh Scottish and Irish union's?

It's not in there interest to even entertain the idea.

It's dead. Never going to happen.

It's not that insular, quite multicultural really...

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:52 pm

Just to confirm that the heads within the game want it too:

Ospreys Chief Exec, Nov 18, 2015 wrote:Q: Looking to the future, what would be your ideal competition structure for the regions to be involved in?

A: The intermediate has got to be a British and Irish league, the long-term a European competition. Why do we exist? We exist to generate money to feed the game below so the game survives.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andrew-hore-interview-we-one-10464481

by Stone Motif Sun 22 Nov 2015, 7:53 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
TJ wrote:Stone - he is relentlessly negative altho he has stopped the racist trolling. He spoils these boards with continual negative postings. I stand by what I have said.

Well in that case I stand by what I said.

You donut.

The PrO'12 is rapidly turning into a millstone around the necks of the participating nations, so highlighting an article which supports the only sensible solution is hardly negative.

It is not either a sensible solution nor one that is possible - and the pro 12 ( not your racist spelling) is doing just fine.

It's the only solution.

Racist

Thought you were a cyclist?

No, I play Hurling for Wales

by Marshes Sun 22 Nov 2015, 8:08 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote:No offence meant to the Welsh sides here because the situation would be the same for Connacht, but aside from Ospreys the regions would get mullered in an all British Isles league, most definitely so in the long run. They struggle for consistency in a smaller league, how would they fair in a joint one.

The only way England would come to the table over a joint league would be if there was promotion and relegation so they can maintain the levels of professional players, and would not be happy for Wales, Ireland and Scotland to have secured places in the top league (very reasonably so). The teams finishing bottom of the Pro 12 would be the ones that suffer and last season, aside from the Italian teams, that would Cardiff, Dragons, Edinbugh, Connacht and Scarlets.

Why would you gamble on destroying a brand Wales have been a part of building and is increasing attendances to consign most of your regions to a second league combined with England's and the Pro 12 lesser teams?

How do you propose it would work Chunky?

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

Didn't read the thread, just your idea, and actually an interesting idea in an ideal world, but can't see it being any more beneficial that the current setup for any involved and it would be an unnecessary gamble which is not in the best interest of all parties.

Would this system benefit all the English clubs more than having their own league financially? They rightly have no interest in the viability of the Pro 12 and it would be a big gamble for them when the payoff is more for the other nations if your certainty about a better TV deal is true (which I'm not so sure it is). The smaller English clubs would be marginalised, and it wouldn't be in the interest of the national team either.

Also I think the pools would lack a bit of interest compared to competing with other nations in the Pro 12, kind of dull the effect of the rivalries. Compartmentalising provides you with less exposure to other teams, and I think you would have less interest in some groups than others.

What happens to the Italian teams or is that not the problem of the safely parachuted British Isles teams?

Smaller teams would struggle to attract players as well, particularly if they are in the duller and less competitive pools.

by Guest Sun 22 Nov 2015, 8:22 pm

There are a few solid reasons why a B&I will not happen, and no solid reasons why it will.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 8:27 pm

Marshes wrote:
Would this system benefit all the English clubs more than having their own league financially?

Yes.

Also I think the pools would lack a bit of interest compared to competing with other nations in the Pro 12, kind of dull the effect of the rivalries. Compartmentalising provides you with less exposure to other teams, and I think you would have less interest in some groups than others.

Why would there be less exposure to other teams? There is actually more expoure to other teams because of the rotation system I describe.

What happens to the Italian teams or is that not the problem of the safely parachuted British Isles teams?

Good question. They play in the French Pro Deux.

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