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Who Is The Most Overrated Boxer In The Last 30 Years?

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BoxingFan88
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Post by hazharrison Wed 25 Nov 2015, 10:29 am

First topic message reminder :

1. Oscar De la Hoya
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Riddick Bowe
6. Roy Jones
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Shane Mosely
10. Naseem Hamed

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Post by AdamT Wed 25 Nov 2015, 2:40 pm

Also it is easy to say Lacy was a hype job after Joe slapped him. Many were picking Calzaghe to lose to this younger, stronger champion.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Nov 2015, 2:49 pm

Calzaghe was 11/8 underdog.

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Post by AdamT Wed 25 Nov 2015, 2:50 pm

Yes I remember many picking Lacy. I picked Calzaghe but only because the fight was in the UK. I wasn't expecting it to be a white wash.

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Post by hazharrison Wed 25 Nov 2015, 2:54 pm

AdamT wrote:Also it is easy to say Lacy was a hype job after Joe slapped him. Many were picking Calzaghe to lose to this younger, stronger champion.

Uncanny how many similar terms you use to Trussman (slapped etc.). Uncanny....

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Post by AdamT Wed 25 Nov 2015, 2:56 pm

Do you really still think we are the one and the same Haz???

Ok SPANKED him!!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Nov 2015, 3:07 pm

He's found me out....

Damn..

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 25 Nov 2015, 3:25 pm

Over-rated is a fluid concept, as surely to tell someone is over-rated, they have to be finally found out, at which point they can no longer be considered over-rated (unless by some kind of blind jingoism such as a Canadian still trying to suggest Bute was a genuine great following his demolition at the hands of Carl Froch).

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Post by eirebilly Thu 26 Nov 2015, 6:27 am

I was always a fan of Jeff Fenech as well. Thought that he was a great little boxer back in the day and could easily have made a personal top 100 list from me.
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Post by hazharrison Thu 26 Nov 2015, 9:46 am

eirebilly wrote:I was always a fan of Jeff Fenech as well. Thought that he was a great little boxer back in the day and could easily have made a personal top 100 list from me.

Fenech was a great little fighter - bloody shame his hands let him down. He was badly ripped off against Azumah Nelson.

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Post by milkyboy Thu 26 Nov 2015, 10:12 am

...and badly battered to a pulp in the return

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Post by BoxingFan88 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 12:08 pm

How people can call Oscar over rated is beyond me?

Because he stepped up to the plate and got beat, sometimes in fights he should have won (Mosley for example)

When fighters take risks they can lose

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Post by hazharrison Thu 26 Nov 2015, 12:40 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:How people can call Oscar over rated is beyond me?

Because he stepped up to the plate and got beat, sometimes in fights he should have won (Mosley for example)

When fighters take risks they can lose

I think he's earned a reputation as someone who took on all comers, which is a slight distortion from how he was viewed at the time. Straigh shooter Mike Katz labelled him "Chicken" De la Hoya early in his career (for his propensity to take on overmatched opposition) before he stepped up to the plate against Ike Quartey. He deserves immense credit for taking on Felix Trinidad when they were both in their primes but after losing that one, he wouldn't entertain a rematch. He made Mosley move up two divisions (and lost) and wasn't keen on tackling Fernando Vargas until Trinidad wrecked him (evidenced in the Flores and Rivera fights).

His career dived badly after that (he carried huge natural size advantages into the Mayweather and Pacquiao fights).

It probably looks ridiculous to level such accusations at Oscar in light of the current scene (and one particular recently retired fighter) but this was a fighter, who at one point, was being touted as a threat to Sugar Ray Robinson.

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Post by milkyboy Thu 26 Nov 2015, 3:39 pm

Your views on oscar are very harsh Haz...nothing to do with being a tito fan;) .

Oscar wouldn't entertain a rematch? There were arguments over what weight it would be at and it dragged its heels - trinidad wanted it at light middle and moved there, oscar stayed at welter. Why would he duck a rematch against a guy most people thought he'd been shafted against... for huge money?

You can debate whether trinidad ruined vargas, but vargas was a career super middle and de la hoya was still at welter when vargas fought trinidad.  It would have been like golovkin going up to fight ward. Outrageous!

Katz made the chicken comment for column inches and referenced it in every article he did about him. Doesn't make him right. Oscar fought a few faded greats early in his career... so did sugar ray robinson.

You really do only have to look at who he fought and when he fought (most of them) to conclude that he generally fought the big names ... and he was the golden goose so if anyone could have cherry picked, he could.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 3:45 pm

milkyboy wrote:Your views on oscar are very harsh Haz...nothing to do with being a tito fan;) .

Oscar wouldn't entertain a rematch? There were arguments over what weight it would be at and it dragged its heels - trinidad wanted it at light middle and moved there, oscar stayed at welter. Why would he duck a rematch against a guy most people thought he'd been shafted against... for huge money?

You can debate whether trinidad ruined vargas, but vargas was a career super middle and de la hoya was still at welter when vargas fought trinidad.  It would have been like golovkin going up to fight ward. Outrageous!

Katz made the chicken comment for column inches and referenced it in every article he did about him. Doesn't make him right.  Oscar fought a few faded greats early in his career... so did sugar ray robinson.

You really do only have to look at who he fought and when he fought (most of them) to conclude that he generally fought the big names ... and he was the golden goose so if anyone could have cherry picked, he could.

Katz is a journalist............You're not Milky..

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Post by hazharrison Thu 26 Nov 2015, 8:20 pm

milkyboy wrote:Your views on oscar are very harsh Haz...nothing to do with being a tito fan;) .

Oscar wouldn't entertain a rematch? There were arguments over what weight it would be at and it dragged its heels - trinidad wanted it at light middle and moved there, oscar stayed at welter. Why would he duck a rematch against a guy most people thought he'd been shafted against... for huge money?

You can debate whether trinidad ruined vargas, but vargas was a career super middle and de la hoya was still at welter when vargas fought trinidad.  It would have been like golovkin going up to fight ward. Outrageous!

Katz made the chicken comment for column inches and referenced it in every article he did about him. Doesn't make him right.  Oscar fought a few faded greats early in his career... so did sugar ray robinson.

You really do only have to look at who he fought and when he fought (most of them) to conclude that he generally fought the big names ... and he was the golden goose so if anyone could have cherry picked, he could.

Just calling it how it was at the time. While King was quite happy to cut Oscar adrift (to custard pie Arum), if De la Hoya had really wanted it, he could have made the rematch (he was the cash cow, he had more control). He didn't want to fight Trinidad again (especially after Tito started taking names at 154).

Vargas a super middle? You mean junior middle? Not sure where you're going with that one? Vargas called Oscar out for years - there was a rivalry between them from the amateurs but Oscar vowed never to give him a payday. After Mosley took over at welter (after Trinidad moved on) Oscar had to move up to 154 where he grabbed an alphabet belt and then belatedly decided to settle the score with Vargas (who was already shot). This wasn't a Ward-Golovkin scenario. Trinidad had already eliminated Oscar at 147 - he wasn't going to lose anything by moving up. He'd have made more money facing Vargas than Mosley but he figured he'd be to big for Shane (he tried the same trick with Floyd and Pacquiao).

Oscar wasn't a popular figure within the game. Like Leonard, he was seen as a bit of a diva who had the likes of Quartey and Trinidad treading water waiting for him to click his fingers. He made everyone dance to his tune. You forget: no-one had heard of Shane Mosley before he jumped two divisions and upset Oscar. After then bullying the likes of Gatti, Vargas and Campas, he lost again and then threw his biggest ever hissy fit and threatened to bring in the FBI!!

His career tanked after that.

He deserves credit for facing Quartey and Trinidad and, after the way Mayweather ran his career in the aftermath, it seems odd to criticise him but he wasn't viewed as a warrior who'd take an L in order to take on a challenge. He was every bit as calculating as Floyd - he just wasn't as bright.

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Post by milkyboy Thu 26 Nov 2015, 9:56 pm

Haz, you're not calling it as it was seen at the time. You're calling it how some saw it at the time.

He had a two match... Rematch and rubber match...deal lined up with Trinidad before taking Mosley instead... They'd agreed on money but not on weight... Trinidad wouldn't fight at welter. It's a 'he says she says' argument as to who to blame, but you side with Tito.

Given the vast majority of people think Oscar beat Trinidad, the idea that he was running scared, or had been 'eliminated' as a welter  doesn't seem too convincing to me.

Yep I meant light middle  obviously for Vargas, and I'm well aware of their history. I don't like the payday reason bigger names give to smaller ones, (Hatton-witter) so I'll grant you that, but Vargas was still fighting at a weight above ODH when he was shouting.  Oscar moved to light middle took a strap and then took Vargas. Who was shot apparently after his one defeat.

As for Mosley, no-one had heard of him? Really? As for his size,  Mosley didn't consider himself a lightweight at that age... He himself considered them similar sizes, it just took him longer to Move through the weights. This wasn't cherry picking a small guy. Mosley was prime, highly rated, and had a couple of fights at welter to get used to the weight.

While Oscar was cherry picking, Trinidad fought who exactly in the late 90's. Kevin leushing? A pensioned Whittaker. All these great light middles he was laying waste to... Vargas err Vargas.

Bob arum plotted a career path for Oscar and sure he took some flack for the calibre of opposition. There were a bunch of useful champions at 147 then and the sanctioning bodies and contractual disputes among the fighters weren't making unifications easy, It's a one eyed view to single out Oscar while waxing lyrical about Tito.

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Post by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 10:47 pm

milkyboy wrote:Haz, you're not calling it as it was seen at the time. You're calling it how some saw it at the time.

He had a two match... Rematch and rubber match...deal lined up with Trinidad before taking Mosley instead... They'd agreed on money but not on weight... Trinidad wouldn't fight at welter. It's a 'he says she says' argument as to who to blame, but you side with Tito.

Given the vast majority of people think Oscar beat Trinidad, the idea that he was running scared, or had been 'eliminated' as a welter  doesn't seem too convincing to me.

Yep I meant light middle  obviously for Vargas, and I'm well aware of their history. I don't like the payday reason bigger names give to smaller ones, (Hatton-witter) so I'll grant you that, but Vargas was still fighting at a weight above ODH when he was shouting.  Oscar moved to light middle took a strap and then took Vargas. Who was shot apparently after his one defeat.

As for Mosley, no-one had heard of him? Really? As for his size,  Mosley didn't consider himself a lightweight at that age... He himself considered them similar sizes, it just took him longer to Move through the weights. This wasn't cherry picking a small guy. Mosley was prime, highly rated, and had a couple of fights at welter to get used to the weight.

While Oscar was cherry picking, Trinidad fought who exactly in the late 90's. Kevin leushing? A pensioned Whittaker. All these great light middles he was laying waste to... Vargas err Vargas.

Bob arum plotted a career path for Oscar and sure he took some flack for the calibre of opposition. There were a bunch of useful champions at 147 then and the sanctioning bodies and contractual disputes among the fighters weren't making unifications easy, It's a one eyed view to single out Oscar while waxing lyrical about Tito.

I remember Mosely being talked about as the guy that beat Oscar as a teenager in the amateurs and a potential star in the making, many in boxing had high hopes for him. Tore through the LW's and although he had talent he was huge at the weight hence jumping straight to WW. A fight with DLH was always on the cards. Was very impressive in all his fights at WW before meeting and beating DLH. Must admit I thought DLH won the 2nd fight but the judges didn't.

As I've said before you can pick holes in almost every fighters record but certain fighters seem to get singled out time and time again on forums. For me I don't consider DLH overrated, in fact many seem to under rate him. still for me a very good fighter in his era and always in decent fights.

You made some interesting points, didn't know about the 2 fight deal involving Tito & DLH.

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Post by Coxy001 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 11:23 pm

#1 : RJJ

Good. Night.

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Post by milkyboy Thu 26 Nov 2015, 11:23 pm

That's right soho... I'm sure I read somewhere that De la Hoya only lost 5 amateur fights... 2 of them to Mosley. They were more or less the same age with a bit of history.

I'm not really an Oscar fan, but I look back on that era as a time that gave us plenty of competitive fights from quality fighters and de la Hoya was in the thick of it. Got some decisions he might have lost and vice versa.

People slag off guys for protecting their 0, then say the guys who fought and lost were over-rated.

Ultimately he lost  too many of his big fights to his contemporaries but no one cleaned him up. I think he gets a bad rap generally.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:53 am

milkyboy wrote:Haz, you're not calling it as it was seen at the time. You're calling it how some saw it at the time.

He had a two match... Rematch and rubber match...deal lined up with Trinidad before taking Mosley instead... They'd agreed on money but not on weight... Trinidad wouldn't fight at welter. It's a 'he says she says' argument as to who to blame, but you side with Tito.

Given the vast majority of people think Oscar beat Trinidad, the idea that he was running scared, or had been 'eliminated' as a welter  doesn't seem too convincing to me.

Yep I meant light middle  obviously for Vargas, and I'm well aware of their history. I don't like the payday reason bigger names give to smaller ones, (Hatton-witter) so I'll grant you that, but Vargas was still fighting at a weight above ODH when he was shouting.  Oscar moved to light middle took a strap and then took Vargas. Who was shot apparently after his one defeat.

As for Mosley, no-one had heard of him? Really? As for his size,  Mosley didn't consider himself a lightweight at that age... He himself considered them similar sizes, it just took him longer to Move through the weights. This wasn't cherry picking a small guy. Mosley was prime, highly rated, and had a couple of fights at welter to get used to the weight.

While Oscar was cherry picking, Trinidad fought who exactly in the late 90's. Kevin leushing? A pensioned Whittaker. All these great light middles he was laying waste to... Vargas err Vargas.

Bob arum plotted a career path for Oscar and sure he took some flack for the calibre of opposition. There were a bunch of useful champions at 147 then and the sanctioning bodies and contractual disputes among the fighters weren't making unifications easy, It's a one eyed view to single out Oscar while waxing lyrical about Tito.

Nope, that's how a good many saw it. Go back and read the specialist magazines at the time - Ring, KO, BM etc. I never read anything about a two match deal but negotiations were bogged down due to weight and money. As winner, Tito demanded he be paid more than Oscar (in the first fight, De La Hoya made about $23 m to Trinidad's $10.5 m). Tito also wanted the rematch at 154.

After De la Hoya balked, King made the David Reid fight (something of a power move). Oscar changed his mind and reneged (agreeing to a 48-52 purse split) and and so King put the Reid fight on ice and Tito agreed to 147. The only problem was, Oscar had signed to fight Derrell Coley and, while Tito was willing to shelve the Reid fight, Oscar refused to shelve the Coley fight. Trinidad then went on to obliterate Reid.

The pair renegotiated the following year - this time Arum and Oscar wanted 50-50. It was Oscar who pulled the plug. Arum's on record as saying: "It was Oscar's call". I don't believe he wanted any part of Trinidad again - especially after Tito began wrecking fighters at 154.

Vargas was very definitely shot (he was buzzed in both the Flores and Rivera fights) after the Trinidad pasting - despite his steroid boost.

And this:

As for Mosley, no-one had heard of him? Really? As for his size,  Mosley didn't consider himself a lightweight at that age... He himself considered them similar sizes, it just took him longer to Move through the weights. This wasn't cherry picking a small guy. Mosley was prime, highly rated, and had a couple of fights at welter to get used to the weight.

Hardcore fans had heard of Mosley but he wasn't well-known in the mainstream (he hadn't been featured on British TV to my knowledge). Oscar was heavily favoured initially, however, as wise souls such as Merchant and Dundee began tipping Mosley, it became evident that Oscar - in attempting to flip Tito and King the bird - had picked on the wrong guy.

Trinidad cleaned up at 147 and 154 - his victories over Oscar (as dull and controversial as it was), Vargas, Reid and Joppy were all top wins. It's a real shame the Oscar sweepstakes precluded a round robin between Tito, Lopez, Quartey etc. but that was the climate. The HBO/Showtime divide and the fixation on having that 0.

I'm not tearing down Oscar's record - merely stating that he's generally overrated and he wasn't viewed as someone who'd take on all-comers back in the day.

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Post by milkyboy Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:36 am

I've admitted some thought arum was matching Oscar easily prior to quartey. Some not everyone. My recollection is that Oscar demanded the quartey fight himself. It's hardly the actions of a cherry picker, and he subsequently took the Trinidad fight.  It's Oscar we're judging not arum.

I'm sure both parties are on record that they agreed the split... Believed to be 50:50 for the rematch, which considering Tito won the lottery and Oscar was the cash cow was pretty reasonable I think. It was the weight they never agreed on. Here's your boy Katz

http://m.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/no-chicken-oscar-night-de-la-hoya-kos-coley-7-article-1.868727

Merchant and Dundee tipping Mosley was a clue that Oscar had picked the wrong guy? Oscar knew all about Mosley, so did anyone with a passing interest in boxing, he was an American unbeaten world champion. How many fighters have cross-over appeal? It was a big fight.

You're trying to pitch Trinidad's reign at light middle as terrifying for Oscar. Reid was a rated and touted Olympian but a novice world champion, add to that an overmatched French stiff and Vargas. Vargas was a great performance and win. The joppy  fight was at middle.

Personally I didn't feel Vargas fought like a shot fighter against Oscar. But these things are just opinion.

It's your opinion that Oscar was scared of Trinidad. I don't see much in oscar's record to suggest he was scared of anyone, not least someone he had in most people's  eyes, already beaten.

I will say this though. Given the flak Oscar got for getting on his bike in the last rounds against Tito, there is an argument that you'd expect him to want to put  that right. I'll temper that by saying why enter long protracted negotiations for a fight you really don't want.

Irrespective of all the above. Surely you judge a fighters record for taking on challenges at the end of their championship career not halfway way through it which is when mr Katz was chucking his chicken comments about.

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Post by milkyboy Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:00 am

As an aside, it's a shame Tito quartey never happened. Their was an agreement in place before Oscar fought ike but there were some promotional contract issues.

On paper results with hindsight Trinidad is strong favourite but stylistically it would have been interesting. Most would say quartey did better against de la Hoya than Trinidad, but quartey never got to grips with Vargas albeit a weight up.

Down to whether Trinidad could impose himself physically I imagine... Quartey could fade late and Trinidad tended to come on strong so that might be the deciding factor.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:18 am

milkyboy wrote:I've admitted some thought arum was matching Oscar easily prior to quartey. Some not everyone. My recollection is that Oscar demanded the quartey fight himself. It's hardly the actions of a cherry picker, and he subsequently took the Trinidad fight.  It's Oscar we're judging not arum.

I'm sure both parties are on record that they agreed the split... Believed to be 50:50 for the rematch, which considering Tito won the lottery and Oscar was the cash cow was pretty reasonable I think. It was the weight they never agreed on. Here's your boy Katz

http://m.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/no-chicken-oscar-night-de-la-hoya-kos-coley-7-article-1.868727

Merchant and Dundee tipping Mosley was a clue that Oscar had picked the wrong guy? Oscar knew all about Mosley, so did anyone with a passing interest in boxing, he was an American unbeaten world champion. How many fighters have cross-over appeal? It was a big fight.

You're trying to pitch Trinidad's reign at light middle as terrifying for Oscar. Reid was a rated and touted Olympian but a novice world champion, add to that an overmatched French stiff and Vargas. Vargas was a great performance and win. The joppy  fight was at middle.

Personally I didn't feel Vargas fought like a shot fighter against Oscar. But these things are just opinion.

It's your opinion that Oscar was scared of Trinidad. I don't see much in oscar's record to suggest he was scared of anyone, not least someone he had in most people's  eyes, already beaten.

I will say this though. Given the flak Oscar got for getting on his bike in the last rounds against Tito, there is an argument that you'd expect him to want to put  that right. I'll temper that by saying why enter long protracted negotiations for a fight you really don't want.

Irrespective of all the above. Surely you judge a fighters record for taking on challenges at the end of their championship career not halfway way through it which is when mr Katz was chucking his chicken comments about.

I've already written that Oscar deserves credit for taking Quartey and Trinidad (although his pre-fight quotes that Quartey was his Thomas Hearns in sort of a pre-ordained path to emulating SRL were a bit ridiculous and contributed to his unpopularity in some quarters).

They agreed to a 48-52 split but Oscar wouldn't pull out of the Coley fight. They then renegotiated on 50-50 but Oscar pulled out and signed to face Mosley.

Katz isn't "my boy" and that link doesn't shine any new light on why the fight stalled?

Mosley was a 2-1 underdog against Oscar. It was a big fight - sold out The Staples Centre - but there hadn't been any sort of clamour for it before Shane got the nod and moved up to 147. Oscar was expected to be too big for Shane (it was a pit stop before a Trinidad rematch - only that didn't quite work out).

Oscar could have had the Trinidad rematch anytime he liked - so why didn't he? Why did he flee like he did against Trinidad (something he didn't do against anyone else in his career)?

Trinidad was red hot at 154. The public and experts were split over the Vargas and Reid fights when polled before hand (that link you posted illustrates the point). Trinidad was in against unbeaten former Olympians who were naturally bigger than him. He ruined both. It was a widely held theory that Trinidad's sustained beating had robbed Vargas of something. He was dropped against Rivera and wobbled by the light-punching "Shibata" Flores (with a jab, if I recall).

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:25 am

milkyboy wrote:As an aside, it's a shame Tito quartey never happened. Their was an agreement in place before Oscar fought ike but there were some promotional contract issues.

On paper results with hindsight Trinidad is strong favourite but stylistically it would have been interesting. Most would say quartey did better against de la Hoya than Trinidad, but quartey never got to grips with Vargas albeit a weight up.

Down to whether Trinidad could impose himself physically I imagine... Quartey could fade late and Trinidad tended to come on strong so that might be the deciding factor.

I'm sure it was in the works until Arum - worried it would throw some shade over De la Hoya - intervened and signed Quartey to a deal down the line.

Trinidad vs Quartey would have been immense (far better than what we ended up with when the pair faced Oscar). I had both narrowly pipping De la Hoya - Quartey would have been a nightmare for Trinidad.

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Post by milkyboy Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:22 pm

...ha, so even the quartey fight was just done to avoid oscar being shunted from the limelight now!

"Katz isn't "my boy" and that link doesn't shine any new light on why the fight stalled?"

You picked him as an expert who thought oscar was a chicken... in this article that same guy said de la hoya had intimated he'd agreed to go to a catchweight but not 154 and that weight was the only outstanding issue.

You also said  you hadn't heard that there was a two fight deal agreed, which is referenced in the article.

"King put the Reid fight on ice and Tito agreed to 147"

You say trinidad agreed to a rematch at 147. That one is news to me and is interesting if you have a reliable source.

You say oscar is the cash cow and can have the fight whenever he wants it, yet it was trinidad originally demanding the lions share of the purse... his father's input was apparently a challenge to the negotiations. It's contract negotiations between arum and king. They both pulled stunts when they couldn't get a deal over the line. But it's oscar's fault it didn't happen because he was scared.

"He deserves immense credit for taking on Felix Trinidad when they were both in their primes but after losing that one, he wouldn't entertain a rematch. He made Mosley move up two divisions (and lost) and wasn't keen on tackling Fernando Vargas until Trinidad wrecked him"

I think months of ongoing negotiations where the other fighter wants a rematch at a higher weight are 'entertaining a rematch'. He didn't make mosley move up two divisions, Mosley couldn't make lightweight and was already fighting at welter. Vargas was at a higher weight, de la hoya went up to that weight and fought him in his second fight. You think vargas was shot because he was dropped and wobbled in two winning fights after trinidad. People certainly did wonder what he might have left... doesn't mean that's why oscar took the fight as you insist. Whichever turns out vargas still had something left... he was pretty much level with oscar after 10 rounds. 4 years later he went tooth and nail with mosley.

You don't like oscar, you like tito, so at every turn on all these points you're wearing tito tinted glasses. We all do it with our favourite fighters Haz, it's human nature.

I'm tired of this one, I'll let anyone still awake draw their own conclusions from your comments as to how balanced your views on de la hoya are.

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:24 pm

Milky you have already killed Haz in this debate, no point hitting him when he is down.

He can read all the historians he wants, but every man and his dog knows Oscar took on all challengers and was a very good champion.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:34 pm

milkyboy wrote:...ha, so even the quartey fight was just done to avoid oscar being shunted from the limelight now!

"Katz isn't "my boy" and that link doesn't shine any new light on why the fight stalled?"

You picked him as an expert who thought oscar was a chicken... in this article that same guy said de la hoya had intimated he'd agreed to go to a catchweight but not 154 and that weight was the only outstanding issue.

You also said  you hadn't heard that there was a two fight deal agreed, which is referenced in the article.

"King put the Reid fight on ice and Tito agreed to 147"

You say trinidad agreed to a rematch at 147. That one is news to me and is interesting if you have a reliable source.

You say oscar is the cash cow and can have the fight whenever he wants it, yet it was trinidad originally demanding the lions share of the purse... his father's input was apparently a challenge to the negotiations. It's contract negotiations between arum and king. They both pulled stunts when they couldn't get a deal over the line. But it's oscar's fault it didn't happen because he was scared.

"He deserves immense credit for taking on Felix Trinidad when they were both in their primes but after losing that one, he wouldn't entertain a rematch. He made Mosley move up two divisions (and lost) and wasn't keen on tackling Fernando Vargas until Trinidad wrecked him"

I think months of ongoing negotiations where the other fighter wants a rematch at a higher weight are 'entertaining a rematch'. He didn't make mosley move up two divisions, Mosley couldn't make lightweight and was already fighting at welter. Vargas was at a higher weight, de la hoya went up to that weight and fought him in his second fight. You think vargas was shot because he was dropped and wobbled in two winning fights after trinidad. People certainly did wonder what he might have left... doesn't mean that's why oscar took the fight as you insist. Whichever turns out vargas still had something left... he was pretty much level with oscar after 10 rounds. 4 years later he went tooth and nail with mosley.

You don't like oscar, you like tito, so at every turn on all these points you're wearing tito tinted glasses. We all do it with our favourite fighters Haz, it's human nature.

I'm tired of this one, I'll let anyone still awake draw their own conclusions from your comments as to how balanced your views on de la hoya are.

How does that make Katz "my boy". That's just a poor attempt at a dig.

You seem a bit flustered here? I've made a series of valid points which you're attempting to refute while offering nothing to back your own theories up (which appear to be based on hindsight)?

Here's an article explaining negotiations:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/dec/19/sports/sp-45640

Here's an article quoting Arum (who explained the decision not to face Mosley was Oscar's call):

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-03-03/sports/0003030370_1_trinidad-de-la-hoya-ii-derrell-coley-felix-trinidad

Vargas was never the same fighter post-Trinidad. I watched every one of his fights coming through (I was a big fan). Oscar vowed never to fight him (until he slipped). Revisit fight reports of the Rivera and Flores fights. He was Jeff Lacy before Lacy.

Funnily enough, Oscar moved to 154 a month or two after Trinidad left. So much for the weight issue eh?


Last edited by hazharrison on Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:35 pm

AdamT wrote:Milky you have already killed Haz in this debate, no point hitting him when he is down.

He can read all the historians he wants, but every man and his dog knows Oscar took on all challengers and was a very good champion.

I thought I'd sent you back to your crayons?

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:36 pm

No mate. I think I am going to spend half my day reading about what so called experts think, then actually pretend I know something and watch boxing.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:37 pm

AdamT wrote:No mate. I think I am going to spend half my day reading about what so called experts think, then actually pretend I know something and watch boxing.

You can read?

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:39 pm

Well I can type a bit, so yeah I can just about read.

What historians do you recommend? I want to have your knowledge.

Can I also put up whatever parts of the articles I choose to back my points??

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:45 pm

Anyway Haz it has been fun, but I have sh1t to do. Have a good day! (Genuinely)

I don't take this too serious and enjoy the debate/banter!

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Post by Guest Fri 27 Nov 2015, 5:19 pm

hazharrison wrote:1. Oscar De la Hoya
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Riddick Bowe
6. Roy Jones
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Shane Mosely
10. Naseem Hamed

I take it you picked this top ten? Strange that you include Lewis, Jones & Hopkins as on another thread you claimed they were all great fighters even though you always refer to Jones as a drug cheat.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 5:28 pm

Here we go...

1. Jimmy Paul....Big things promised..Lost to Haugen..
2. Matt Hilton..kid dynamite lost to the fridge!!
3. Livingstone Bramble...Crawley and Ray gave him to high status.
4. Don Curry....Pains me to write it..
5. Iran Barkley. ..Glorified journeyman..
6. Frank Tate...Ko thought he was the heir to Hagler..
7. Bobby Czyz....Way too much hype...
8. David Haye...Never really beaten anybody decent.
9. Barry Mcguigan....Ko cover and future star...not!!
10. Mark Breland...Was going to be the next Sugar Ray..

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 5:52 pm

sohotnot wrote:
hazharrison wrote:1. Oscar De la Hoya
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Riddick Bowe
6. Roy Jones
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Shane Mosely
10. Naseem Hamed

I take it you picked this top ten? Strange that you include Lewis, Jones & Hopkins as on another thread you claimed they were all great fighters even though you always refer to Jones as a drug cheat.

It wasn't my picks (in order). I just threw a few names out there. They were all great fighters (to differing degrees). Great fighters can still be overrated.

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Post by Guest Fri 27 Nov 2015, 6:02 pm

hazharrison wrote:
sohotnot wrote:
hazharrison wrote:1. Oscar De la Hoya
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Riddick Bowe
6. Roy Jones
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Shane Mosely
10. Naseem Hamed

I take it you picked this top ten? Strange that you include Lewis, Jones & Hopkins as on another thread you claimed they were all great fighters even though you always refer to Jones as a drug cheat.

It wasn't my picks (in order). I just threw a few names out there. They were all great fighters (to differing degrees). Great fighters can still be overrated.

Fair enough.

With regards to DLH he seems to divide opinions so much that it would be hard to say he is overrated or underrated. Would have to say him, Jones and Mosely are my favorites to watch out of your list however people like to rate them. Mosely & DLH fought in a great era of boxing for me.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:33 pm

sohotnot wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
sohotnot wrote:
hazharrison wrote:1. Oscar De la Hoya
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Riddick Bowe
6. Roy Jones
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Shane Mosely
10. Naseem Hamed

I take it you picked this top ten? Strange that you include Lewis, Jones & Hopkins as on another thread you claimed they were all great fighters even though you always refer to Jones as a drug cheat.

It wasn't my picks (in order). I just threw a few names out there. They were all great fighters (to differing degrees). Great fighters can still be overrated.

Fair enough.

With regards to DLH he seems to divide opinions so much that it would be hard to say he is overrated or underrated. Would have to say him, Jones and Mosely are my favorites to watch out of your list however people like to rate them. Mosely & DLH fought in a great era of boxing for me.

The 80s were better but the 90s knocked spots off the current era.

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Post by milkyboy Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:55 pm

hazharrison wrote:
milkyboy wrote:...ha, so even the quartey fight was just done to avoid oscar being shunted from the limelight now!

"Katz isn't "my boy" and that link doesn't shine any new light on why the fight stalled?"

You picked him as an expert who thought oscar was a chicken... in this article that same guy said de la hoya had intimated he'd agreed to go to a catchweight but not 154 and that weight was the only outstanding issue.

You also said  you hadn't heard that there was a two fight deal agreed, which is referenced in the article.

"King put the Reid fight on ice and Tito agreed to 147"

You say trinidad agreed to a rematch at 147. That one is news to me and is interesting if you have a reliable source.

You say oscar is the cash cow and can have the fight whenever he wants it, yet it was trinidad originally demanding the lions share of the purse... his father's input was apparently a challenge to the negotiations. It's contract negotiations between arum and king. They both pulled stunts when they couldn't get a deal over the line. But it's oscar's fault it didn't happen because he was scared.

"He deserves immense credit for taking on Felix Trinidad when they were both in their primes but after losing that one, he wouldn't entertain a rematch. He made Mosley move up two divisions (and lost) and wasn't keen on tackling Fernando Vargas until Trinidad wrecked him"

I think months of ongoing negotiations where the other fighter wants a rematch at a higher weight are 'entertaining a rematch'. He didn't make mosley move up two divisions, Mosley couldn't make lightweight and was already fighting at welter. Vargas was at a higher weight, de la hoya went up to that weight and fought him in his second fight. You think vargas was shot because he was dropped and wobbled in two winning fights after trinidad. People certainly did wonder what he might have left... doesn't mean that's why oscar took the fight as you insist. Whichever turns out vargas still had something left... he was pretty much level with oscar after 10 rounds. 4 years later he went tooth and nail with mosley.

You don't like oscar, you like tito, so at every turn on all these points you're wearing tito tinted glasses. We all do it with our favourite fighters Haz, it's human nature.

I'm tired of this one, I'll let anyone still awake draw their own conclusions from your comments as to how balanced your views on de la hoya are.

How does that make Katz "my boy". That's just a poor attempt at a dig.

You seem a bit flustered here? I've made a series of valid points which you're attempting to refute while offering nothing to back your own theories up (which appear to be based on hindsight)?

Here's an article explaining negotiations:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/dec/19/sports/sp-45640

Here's an article quoting Arum (who explained the decision not to face Mosley was Oscar's call):

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-03-03/sports/0003030370_1_trinidad-de-la-hoya-ii-derrell-coley-felix-trinidad

Vargas was never the same fighter post-Trinidad. I watched every one of his fights coming through (I was a big fan). Oscar vowed never to fight him (until he slipped). Revisit fight reports of the Rivera and Flores fights. He was Jeff Lacy before Lacy.

Funnily enough, Oscar moved to 154 a month or two after Trinidad left. So much for the weight issue eh?

I'm flustered? I'll let others judge who's flustered haz. I called you up on a few things, you don't respond to them and quote a few articles that genuinely do add nothing to the debate and which for the record, I'd already read.

King pulled out of the first negotiations Oscar pulled out of the second set after months of wrangling and no progress on the weight issue.

You now seem to be suggesting I produce supporting evidence that Oscar wasn't a chicken, running scared of Tito. You are the one making the accusations, I'm the one pointing out that what you present as expert supported proof is just opinion. Your opinion might be right haz, but only Oscar knows the answer as to whether he was scared of Trinidad. No experts, no keyboard pundits, no one.  Just Oscar.

I'm sure you haven't just changed the angle of debate to avoid answering points you don't want to answer, as that would be beneath you  Very Happy So...

- Trinidad agreed to 147... do we have a source for this, better still an undisputed one?
- Oscar made Mosley jump two weight divisions ... presumably to say this you must believe oscar cooked up a deal to fight Mosley... rather than a return with Trinidad.... before oscar fought trinidad for the first time?


Re your specific running scared allegations:

- Oscar ran scared of Trinidad.... Do you have anything other than protracted negotiations fell down with both sides blaming the other?  Any idea why de la hoya would go to that trouble? Even 'not your boy', to avoid offence,  'straight talking' Katz is reporting oscar offering a catchweight as a compromise.
- Oscar deliberately waited until Vargas was shot... any expert opinion to back it up, or is it just your opinion because vargas had called him out lots, and oscar only took the fight when he finally went to super welter?

Happy debating i'm off for a beer.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 27 Nov 2015, 7:59 pm

Game, set and Match Milkyboy.

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:08 pm

Jeez Milky you are in top form today!

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:37 pm

milkyboy wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
milkyboy wrote:...ha, so even the quartey fight was just done to avoid oscar being shunted from the limelight now!

"Katz isn't "my boy" and that link doesn't shine any new light on why the fight stalled?"

You picked him as an expert who thought oscar was a chicken... in this article that same guy said de la hoya had intimated he'd agreed to go to a catchweight but not 154 and that weight was the only outstanding issue.

You also said  you hadn't heard that there was a two fight deal agreed, which is referenced in the article.

"King put the Reid fight on ice and Tito agreed to 147"

You say trinidad agreed to a rematch at 147. That one is news to me and is interesting if you have a reliable source.

You say oscar is the cash cow and can have the fight whenever he wants it, yet it was trinidad originally demanding the lions share of the purse... his father's input was apparently a challenge to the negotiations. It's contract negotiations between arum and king. They both pulled stunts when they couldn't get a deal over the line. But it's oscar's fault it didn't happen because he was scared.

"He deserves immense credit for taking on Felix Trinidad when they were both in their primes but after losing that one, he wouldn't entertain a rematch. He made Mosley move up two divisions (and lost) and wasn't keen on tackling Fernando Vargas until Trinidad wrecked him"

I think months of ongoing negotiations where the other fighter wants a rematch at a higher weight are 'entertaining a rematch'. He didn't make mosley move up two divisions, Mosley couldn't make lightweight and was already fighting at welter. Vargas was at a higher weight, de la hoya went up to that weight and fought him in his second fight. You think vargas was shot because he was dropped and wobbled in two winning fights after trinidad. People certainly did wonder what he might have left... doesn't mean that's why oscar took the fight as you insist. Whichever turns out vargas still had something left... he was pretty much level with oscar after 10 rounds. 4 years later he went tooth and nail with mosley.

You don't like oscar, you like tito, so at every turn on all these points you're wearing tito tinted glasses. We all do it with our favourite fighters Haz, it's human nature.

I'm tired of this one, I'll let anyone still awake draw their own conclusions from your comments as to how balanced your views on de la hoya are.

How does that make Katz "my boy". That's just a poor attempt at a dig.

You seem a bit flustered here? I've made a series of valid points which you're attempting to refute while offering nothing to back your own theories up (which appear to be based on hindsight)?

Here's an article explaining negotiations:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/dec/19/sports/sp-45640

Here's an article quoting Arum (who explained the decision not to face Mosley was Oscar's call):

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-03-03/sports/0003030370_1_trinidad-de-la-hoya-ii-derrell-coley-felix-trinidad

Vargas was never the same fighter post-Trinidad. I watched every one of his fights coming through (I was a big fan). Oscar vowed never to fight him (until he slipped). Revisit fight reports of the Rivera and Flores fights. He was Jeff Lacy before Lacy.

Funnily enough, Oscar moved to 154 a month or two after Trinidad left. So much for the weight issue eh?

I'm flustered? I'll let others judge who's flustered haz. I called you up on a few things, you don't respond to them and quote a few articles that genuinely do add nothing to the debate and which for the record, I'd already read.

King pulled out of the first negotiations Oscar pulled out of the second set after months of wrangling and no progress on the weight issue.

You now seem to be suggesting I produce supporting evidence that Oscar wasn't a chicken, running scared of Tito. You are the one making the accusations, I'm the one pointing out that what you present as expert supported proof is just opinion. Your opinion might be right haz, but only Oscar knows the answer as to whether he was scared of Trinidad. No experts, no keyboard pundits, no one.  Just Oscar.

I'm sure you haven't just changed the angle of debate to avoid answering points you don't want to answer, as that would be beneath you  Very Happy So...

- Trinidad agreed to 147... do we have a source for this, better still an undisputed one?
- Oscar made Mosley jump two weight divisions ... presumably to say this you must believe oscar cooked up a deal to fight Mosley... rather than a return with Trinidad.... before oscar fought trinidad for the first time?


Re your specific running scared allegations:

- Oscar ran scared of Trinidad.... Do you have anything other than protracted negotiations fell down with both sides blaming the other?  Any idea why de la hoya would go to that trouble? Even 'not your boy', to avoid offence,  'straight talking' Katz is reporting oscar offering a catchweight as a compromise.
- Oscar deliberately waited until Vargas was shot... any expert opinion to back it up, or is it just your opinion because vargas had called him out lots, and oscar only took the fight when he finally went to super welter?

Happy debating i'm off for a beer.

1. The source is in the article I linked (the one you'd already read). Oscar agreed to a 48-52 split and so King agreed to shelve the Reid fight and the demand to fight at 154.
2. You got me, Mosley invaded welter in '99 to chase an Oscar fight. Oscar still believed he'd be too big (as did most observers) - hence Mosley's position as 2-1 underdog.
3. Oscar could have made a Trinidad rematch at any point (as he could have made an Ike Quartey rematch - one he was quizzed about immediately afterwards but dismissed). King and Arum negotiated the rematch but, ultimately, it was Oscar's decision to go another route. Firstly, he refused to cancel the Coley fight (when Trinidad offered to cancel the Reid fight) and secondly, he made the call to fight Mosley when they renegotiated that summer. I'll pull out some BMs in a bit to offer some further "evidence" if that makes you happier.
4. Oscar publicly refused to entertain a Vargas fight due to Fernando's perceived "disrespect". After Mosley eliminated him from 147 (once again) he moved to 154 (just after Tito had left funnily enough) and suddenly forgave Vargas (who, incidentally, had looked faded in fights with Flores and Rivera). Again, will pull out some mags later to provide some "expert opinion".

Enjoy the beer! Let me know if you need any further clarification!


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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:38 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Game, set and Match Milkyboy.

The saddest cheerleader in town.

Just warming up here. Reverse the hearse (Lennox Lewis Adam/Truss).

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:41 pm

I don't like that naughty-waughty Oscar...

But I lovesy-wovesy GGG !!

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:49 pm

Haha

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 8:58 pm

Rivera fight (LA Times):

"Trinidad knocked down Vargas five times before the fight was stopped in the 12th round, leaving disturbing questions about the previously unbeaten Vargas--questions about his chin and about lasting damage from Trinidad's fists.

Those questions weren't answered in Vargas' next fight, in May, when light-hitting Wilfredo Rivera knocked down Vargas and had him in trouble before Vargas finally won on a sixth-round TKO."

Flores fight:

LA Times: "There was never any doubt who would win the fight after the second-round knockdown, but doubts still remain over Vargas' ability to regain the form he had before last December when Felix Trinidad knocked him down five times in a dominating win.

Returning to the ring in May, Vargas was knocked down by light-hitting Wilfredo Rivera before rallying to win on a sixth-round TKO.

But neither that performance nor Saturday's victory have demonstrated that Vargas is ready to take on the big-name opponents he is trying to next lure into the ring--Oscar De La Hoya or Shane Mosley."

USA Today: "Vargas had to overcome a shaky start to regain a portion of the junior middleweight title that he lost when he was stopped by Felix Trinidad last December.

Vargas, fighting for only the second time since losing to Trinidad, was hit frequently in the early rounds and appeared to be hurt by a looping right hook from the left-hander midway through the second round."

Rivera couldn't punch and Flores was his former sparring partner. I'll pull out some better stuff later but his decline was very sharp and very real - remember being shocked by it (as I was about Reid's).


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:00 pm

Game, set and match....Milky..

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:00 pm

Ffs Haz. I will give you something, you're relentless.

You're like a dog with a bone. Hopefully me Fury shows as much tomorrow.

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:01 pm

Mr Fury that is.

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Post by hazharrison Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:03 pm

AdamT wrote:Ffs Haz. I will give you something, you're relentless.

You're like a dog with a bone. Hopefully me Fury shows as much tomorrow.

My defence is impregnable, praise be to Allah (Mike Tyson Adam/Truss).

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Post by AdamT Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:05 pm

My back is broken.

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