Aviva Premiership - Round 6

First topic message reminder :

Table

Team	Played	--Won--	-Drawn-	---BP---	Points
Saracens	5	5	0	2	22
Exeter	5	4	0	3	19
Leicester	5	4	0	0	16
Harlequins	5	3	0	3	15
Wasps	5	3	0	2	14
Northampton	5	2	0	4	12
Sale Sharks	5	2	1	2	12
Bath	5	2	0	2	10
Worcester	5	2	0	2	10
Gloucester	5	2	0	1	9
Newcastle	5	0	1	0	2
London Irish	5	0	0	0	0

Fixtures:


Fri 4th Dec

19:45 Gloucester Rugby  v   Sale Sharks BT Sport
Both sides will not have been happy with their performances last week in games that failed to rise above the awful conditions. Gloucester's experiment of Twelvetrees at 10 and hook at 12 failed rather conspicuously as neither managed to add any control. Gloucester will be hoping for dry conditions in which their quick backs are more likely to thrive. Not for the first time this season, Danny Cipriani was unsuccessful with a "win-the-game" kick. After his break during the Challenge Cup matches he looked rusty, and with the court appearance hanging over him he will need to cast away all extraneous emotions and perform if Sale are to sneak anything from this game. Gloucester should win and overtake their visitors in the table, but it is hard to see either team threatening the top half of the table.


Sat 5th Dec

15:00 Harlequins  v   London Irish
Having secured a TBP at Sandy Park, Quins will be bemoaning their ill-discipline (plus attempts to run the clock down at the end of the first half) that allowed Exeter to sneak the win. Still, if you had offered them 2 points before they started their journey west they would probably have bitten your hand off. London Irish are the only team still pointless in the table, but can keep tyheir hopes up by looking at just how hard their opening fixtures have been. all five of their opponents so far finished in the top half of the table last season, and all bar Bath are their again. The trip to the Stoop continues the trend of playing form teams. Certainly Irish have no being playing as poorly as the table would suggest and, despite Quins being clear favourites, they are capable of getting something from this game.

15:00 Worcester Warriors  v   Leicester Tigers
Along with visitors Bath, Leicester did well to rise above the conditions last week and produce a game full of ambition and running - but perhaps not finishing. With Bell and Youngs both kicking far too long with the wind behind, Bath dominated territory and possession in the first half. However tigers showed real grit to hold them at bay, repeated this when down to 14 men in the second half and pulled away at the end. While the influence of Mauger can be seen in how Tigers are trying to play, the physicality with which tigers hit every tackle, ruck and maul was quintessential Cockers. They will need all that grit and fire for the visit to Sixways to face a Worcester side that are more than the sum of their parts. Wuss will be disappointed and even shocked by the score line last week. They did not play as poorly as a casual look at the score would suggest. DOC needs to avoid winding the ref up though. There were a number of 50/50 calls that went the Sarries way after some rather pointless in the refs face behaviour.


15:15 Bath Rugby  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
The top two in last years regular season have struggled for form and consistency in the league so far, both with just two wins from five games. It is hard to decide who will be more confident going into this match. Bath played some excellent rugby in absolutely dire conditions at the weekend, but allowed Leicester's physicality to seize the day. Saints in conditions almost as bad featured in perhaps the worst match of the season - but dominated their opponent up front. Bath struggled at the lineout last week, but went toe-to-toe  at scrum time with the Leicester 8, almost gaining parity. they will need to raise their game further though for the visit of Saints beast of a scrum. I fell thi smatch could be decided by the conditions. If dry and still Bath should be able to avoid arm wrestle and seize the win. Wet and heavy and Saints abrasiveness and grunbt should dominate. Both sides will not wish to lose and slide down the table, but both sides will have their eyes on potentially tricky European matches.

17:30 Wasps  v   Exeter Chiefs BT Sport
Two teams that love to run the ball. Also two teams that have shown admirable defence this season at times, Wasps most notably in Europe, Chiefs for Leicester's visit. I am fascinated to see how this match will pan out. On paper Wasps look stronger, but Exeter have continued to make a mockery of such assertions. Battle of the back rows could be seismic.


Sun 6th Dec

15:00 Newcastle Falcons  v   Saracens BT Sport
It will be a shock if Saracens fail to win this game. Falcons should not be written off though. With one eye on Europe the defending champions will continue to rotate their players. Falcons came close to beating Sarries last season in Barnet with an all action attacking game - same again could make things interesting - but they have to be precise. Lose possession when in attack and they will see just how precisely Sarries counter attack.

LondonTiger wrote:There are all sorts of things that clubs without sugar daddies (or 25k paying spectators) can do. However when one club spends £10m and another £5m there is a limit.

Who is spending 10m?

For 2017/18 season:

Base Salary Cap - £7m
Home Grown Player Credits - £600k
Injury Dispensations - £400k
Two marquee players - £1m
Academy Allowance - £100k
EPS Player Credit - £80k per player
Permissable 5% overspend - £350k

Get 7 players in the EPS and you can spend £10m without being in breach of the cap.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Would a side like Newcastle do better with a different DOR? Quite possibly.

I firmly believe yes now, but even more so his loyalty to John Wells.

but a change of coaching will not see them at the top of the table.

No it wont...but it will see a massive improvement in performance, which in turn should improve results which in turn improves league position.

We made MASSIVE progress last year, playing some real quality rugby at times (accept there was still some dirge aswell) so how come we have gone so far backwards this season. It can only be coaching...and tactics.

I think some of your improved performances last year probably came from having no converns about relegation. From the few Newcastle matches I have seen this year, they seem much more conservative now as compared to last season. I finally saw the match with Sarries and all Falcons did was kick away possession. Mindlessly and endlessly. Last seaosn they ran a lot more. Think that had anything to do with it?

LondonTiger wrote:For 2017/18 season:

Base Salary Cap - £7m
Home Grown Player Credits - £600k
Injury Dispensations - £400k
Two marquee players - £1m
Academy Allowance - £100k
EPS Player Credit - £80k per player
Permissable 5% overspend - £350k

Get 7 players in the EPS and you can spend £10m without being in breach of the cap.

Wow. I've never seen it laid out like that. Thanks. That's super helpful. So, who do we think will be spending only £5m then?

We have just about had the finances to get near the salary cap this year, so that's about £5 million I think. When it goes up, unless we have some increase in income, I doubt we'll be spending much more than we currently are.

Geordiefalcon I think you'll find that many clubs' preparation was disrupted by the RWC.

Londontiger if a team is playing well and the overall club vibe is happy then players are less inclined to leave. Sure players might leave but there should be compensation for that.

Good signings aren't just about the biggest names, one problem with many big names is that normally they are on international duty.

Good players can be unearthed if developed well by clubs - of course the academy is part of that too. Of course LI and Newcastle have suffered from talent drain but this would be less likely if both were doing well - the vicious circle.

Clubs lower down the table also can use the international window and the lack of difficult ERCC games as an advantage.

Of course having more financial muscle can help but it doesn't always. England are the case in point. Bath this season too.

Ozzy3213 if you're close to the salary cap and still at the bottom of the league surely you have to look at factors other than the salary cap for the reasons that you are not performing?


If money was all that mattered then the LTA would have churned out world class British tennis players by the bucket load, instead we British have to hang onto the coat tails of Andy Murray who wasn't developed in the British system.

Britain won the Davis Cup but it was the Andy Murray show with a few small cameos here and there from others.

As for rugby union, RFU, the most financially successful rugby union in the world but the England rugby team is more embarrassing than the football team at the moment, a real low for English rugby.

England can't buy Savea for the wing though.

Bathite wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:For 2017/18 season:

Base Salary Cap - £7m
Home Grown Player Credits - £600k
Injury Dispensations - £400k
Two marquee players - £1m
Academy Allowance - £100k
EPS Player Credit - £80k per player
Permissable 5% overspend - £350k

Get 7 players in the EPS and you can spend £10m without being in breach of the cap.

Wow. I've never seen it laid out like that. Thanks. That's super helpful. So, who do we think will be spending only £5m then?

US....im sure ours is the lowest budget. 5-6 million

Geordiefalcon I think you'll find that many clubs' preparation was disrupted by the RWC.

Ah I have no doubt about that...most clubs. But many clubs can cope with the disruption better than others....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Bathite wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:For 2017/18 season:

Base Salary Cap - £7m
Home Grown Player Credits - £600k
Injury Dispensations - £400k
Two marquee players - £1m
Academy Allowance - £100k
EPS Player Credit - £80k per player
Permissable 5% overspend - £350k

Get 7 players in the EPS and you can spend £10m without being in breach of the cap.

Wow. I've never seen it laid out like that. Thanks. That's super helpful. So, who do we think will be spending only £5m then?

US....im sure ours is the lowest budget. 5-6 million

This is why I believe the Salary Cap must include minimum spend for salaries to ensure a competitive balance financially.  And, of course, the anethema to organised Rugby:   transparency.

Ozzy3213 wrote:We have just about had the finances to get near the salary cap this year, so that's about £5 million I think.  When it goes up, unless we have some increase in income, I doubt we'll be spending much more than we currently are.

TV revenue is going up 40% next season, but I have no idea how much of the salary cap increase this will fund.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Bathite wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:For 2017/18 season:

Base Salary Cap - £7m
Home Grown Player Credits - £600k
Injury Dispensations - £400k
Two marquee players - £1m
Academy Allowance - £100k
EPS Player Credit - £80k per player
Permissable 5% overspend - £350k

Get 7 players in the EPS and you can spend £10m without being in breach of the cap.

Wow. I've never seen it laid out like that. Thanks. That's super helpful. So, who do we think will be spending only £5m then?

US....im sure ours is the lowest budget. 5-6 million

This is why I believe the Salary Cap must include minimum spend for salaries to ensure a competitive balance financially.  And, of course, the anethema to organised Rugby:   transparency.

By including a minimum spend don't you risk getting into a situation where some clubs have no choice but to get a 'sugar daddy' funding then to reach the lower limit?

At that point point I start to feel clubs are only one bloke getting bored and jumping ship away from crisis point - as so often happens in football.

I respect that we need to challenge in Europe more and that seems to be happening this season with the increase. Jeff clubs will likely challenge even more next season as well if guys like Faletau, Picamoles and Toomua are already signing.

Personally though I'd have preferred a situation where our top clubs struggle in the ECC than one where I feel we are edging closer and closer to a much smaller version of the unsustainable system seen in football.

Perhaps you ar right, mate. But we must have a level playing field financially or we will always have an underclass of clubs who are in the Premiership but can't afford to compete for players. Cannon fodder for the bigger/profitable clubs.

No matter the qualities of the coaches, teams cannot win unless they have enough quality players all of whom will want to be paid commensurate with their peers of the same quality.

The downside is this will lead to some clubs not surviving at the Premiership level because the cannot afford to compete for players. A longer term goal is an additional requirement for clubs to break even (at the least). Each must have a transparent (there's that term again) business plan to get there. If Saints can do it with a small stadium, other clubs can do it as well.

BS you make some valid points but although money isn't the be-all and end-all it's surely a major factor in a team's competitiveness? Yes money doesn't guarantee a top spot due to other factors which you've mentioned but lack of money probably means a club will stay towards the bottom.

Wasn't lack of competitiveness in Europe one of your reasons for wanting an increase in the cap?

To add to the point I made above, this might also mean the salary Cap might not be able to go up as high as some want.  It will increase, but cannot be beyond the means of the clubs in the Premiership.  As I said, this may mean some clubs cannot qualify for the Premiership on purely financial grounds, but, to me, is the only way.  The cap maximum and minimum expenditure level must increase proportional with ability to spend by all stakeholders, not only a select few.  Add in revenue targets and/or balanced budget requirements, then we have a viable league.

I agree wholeheartedly that a requirement for clubs to be breaking even would be an excellent addition.

I also like the idea of a minimum and maximum cap expenditure that are steadily raised proportionally until we reached a level where all Jeff clubs are competing on a more even playing field in the Prem but ECC clubs which draw in more money through European matches etc can afford to compete in Europe.

However I'm afraid the way the cap has been poorly policed for several season and is now being rapidly raised out of reach for many clubs means that this isn't going to happen.

You set your maximum based on keeping the minimum acceptable for all. If some want to raise the maximum it should be done by raising the level ALL can achieve.

Agree completely. Under this proposal every team have the raw ability to compete. Whether they do or not is down to purely Rugby.

On another note, Dean Richards has a policy of really bringing through players from our very good academy rather than big expensive signings.

He's brought a lot of foreign strong players initially and slowly will integrate the academy players. He has a long term plan which is something I really like.

Players like McGuigan, Harris, Mark and Scott Wilson, Sean Robinson, Kibirige, Catterick, etc etc

I know I sound unhappy at the moment..its just the performances but in general im happy with the way things are going...the recruitment and the future policy of having a side full of academy or local produced players.

I think that the cap going up will just lead to salary inflation rather than enabling teams to increase their squads. This was in the telegraph today, I take these things with a pinch of salt, but with these sort of numbers being mentioned and agents knowing that clubs can spend more, its hard to see salaries doing anything other than increasing hugely.

Five players with biggest salaries in English club rugby ( From the Telegraph, not my comments)


Manu Tuilagi, 24, centre, Leicester
£425,000: Out with a groin injury since October 2014 but Leicester still deemed it worth pushing the boat to keep the powerful centre.

John Afoa, 32, tighthead prop, Gloucester
£400,000: Became the highest-paid player in the Premiership when he signed for Gloucester in 2014 from Ulster. Value for money has been debatable.

Danny Care, 28, scrum-half, Harlequins
£320,000: Appointed club captain this season. Fell down the England pecking order but has been in resurgent form for Harlequins.

Chris Robshaw, 29, flanker, Harlequins
£320,000: England’s World Cup captain is adored at Harlequins where he recently committed his future as part of a triple contract signing.

Mike Brown, 30, full-back, Harlequins
£320,000: Among a select band of England players to enhance their reputations at the World Cup and a ferocious competitor for club and country.

GeordieFalcon wrote:On another note, Dean Richards has a policy of really bringing through players from our very good academy rather than big expensive signings.

He's brought a lot of foreign strong players initially and slowly will integrate the academy players. He has a long term plan which is something I really like.

Players like McGuigan, Harris, Mark and Scott Wilson, Sean Robinson, Kibirige, Catterick, etc etc

I know I sound unhappy at the moment..its just the performances but in general im happy with the way things are going...the recruitment and the future policy of having a side full of academy or local produced players.

Really? Never noticed.............