606 Selects Englands EPS for 2016 6Ns - Take 2

First topic message reminder :

Name your 33 man EPS squad.
It must include 22 of the following players.
Keep any injured players in as they can be replaced later - but state who you would have on standby.

I will add up and produce the consensus next week.

Current Squad


Props
Kieran Brookes
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Mako Vunipola
David Wilson

Hookers
Jamie George
Rob Webber
Tom Youngs

Second rows
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Geoff Parling

Back rows
James Haskell
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Billy Vunipola
Tom Wood
Calum Clark

Scrum halves
Danny Care
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly halves
Owen Farrell
George Ford

Centres
Brad Barritt
Sam Burgess
Jonathan Joseph
Henry Slade
Luther Burrell

Back three
Mike Brown
Alex Goode
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Cole, Brookes, Thomas, Sinckler, Collier, Wilson....in no particular order.

England should have no concerns around the tighthead position, particularly when you consider the depth (or lack thereof) faced by rival 6 Nations sides.

No concerns? Listing a bunch of THs doesn't mean anything.

Cole - has basically been the first choice for years by default, regardless of form.
Brookes - playing well but not proven as a starter at international level.
Thomas - again unproven as starter, is he in form?
Wilson - still mostly unproven as a starter because Cole has owned the 3 shirt, again is he in form?
Collier - is he good enough at club level let alone international level?
Sinckler - young hot head, potentially talented but inexperienced, still has a lot to prove.

When you look more in depth I think TH is not an area of strength yet.

You have players who might make it but there's no guarantee.

Lock looks probably the most healthy position but then again balance will be interesting.

England has the problem of depth but who to support?

It's all relative Beshocked. Scotland has one good tighthead, W Nel, and the others are all proven not to be good enough. Ireland - Mike Ross is reliable but close to drawing a pension. Wales - Samson Lee is their best, and has been in awful form this season.

Cole is a proven international quality tighthead with lots of experience. Off the bench (admittedly) I think at times Wilson and Brookes have looked better, in fact there's a good case for Brookes starting in the 6 Nations. That's three tightheads already who would have a decent case to start for England's 6 Nations competitors, and I haven't started on Thomas and Sinckler who have both shown more potential than anything Scotland, Ireland and Wales have beyond their starting choices (in my opinion). I'd certainly take them ahead of Jon Welsh and Moray Low who have both played club and international rugby and never looked anthing other than military medium.

You need to watch the Falcons then mate. We've been rather dire so far this season but Jon Welsh has been class.

Hopefully that victory this weekend where we played very well can kickstart the season for us.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The problem is there's no bloody 12's!

Id give Hill a shot. Young, he owns his club spot and is a real potential for the future.

And hes about 6'1 and 16+ stone so decent size aswell.

Yes Hill is a bright prospect, probably his greatest feature is his low error count. When you contrast that to Burrell and Twelvetrees its so good to see a 12 who doesn't constantly knock on, throw forward passes or give silly pens away.

Should he be rushed though?

Sgt Pooly and yappysnap your attitude is why England will revel in mediocrity. England need to aspire to be the best in the world. That means picking players who have that potential to be the best - identify it then develop.

2nd season syndrome? Sure... starting lock for the in form side in Europe, hasn't been in a losing side since the narrow loss to Clermont last season...yes.. I agree. Of course you probably think the rest of the Saracens pack have been carrying Itoje. I assure you that Mccall is a tough DOR who will only pick players performing regardless of international experience. Brown and Hamilton - two very experienced players are getting less game time than Itoje.

Geordiefalcon Mark Wilson isn't on the radar.

FES I think that just shows how poor THs are in the NH in my opinion because I think Nel and Lee are overrated. Mike Ross is mediocre. Cole has basically owned the England 3 shirt by default. Doesn't matter if he plays well or not.  Perhaps Brookes will push Cole but there's no guarantee. There's a significant drop in experience.


Daly has looked promising this season but unproven at international level. I don't think he's anymore exciting than any other England prospects but because he's flashy he's fashionable.

I guess the answer is to try him - I agree. Daly is not the only young player who should have an opportunity though.

Seems to be quite a bit of double standards on here.

Saying Itoje isn't ready but wanting Hill and Daly in the EPS.....

Personally I want all 3 to be in the EPS. Don't necessarily need to start vs Scotland but need to be given opportunities to prove their worth.

yappysnap wrote:Yes Hill is a bright prospect, probably his greatest feature is his low error count. When you contrast that to Burrell and Twelvetrees its so good to see a 12 who doesn't constantly knock on, throw forward passes or give silly pens away.

Should he be rushed though?

No maybes not in an ideal world...but in an ideal world we'd have an experienced 12 in there.

Only Barritt stands out as that who is "dependable"

I thought Lancaster was getting it in the neck for not going all out for the short term win in order for us to be in a better place longer term?

He's into his third season of Prem rugby having not looked out of place in any of them - started 34 of his 41 AP appearances so he wasn't eased in.

He featured for the Saxons as well and has shown up well in ERCC games this season. It's a shame he didn't feature against Clermont this weekend however. With the Chiefs scrum going backwards it would have been a good test to see how he coped.

The main fear with rushing young players is that they wont quite be ready for the step up in physicality at Test level. I'd say that Hill should be fine in that regard though as he is a big bloke and hurls himself into everything.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly and yappysnap your attitude is why England will revel in mediocrity. England need to aspire to be the best in the world. That means picking players who have that potential to be the best - identify it then develop.

2nd season syndrome? Sure... starting lock for the in form side in Europe, hasn't been in a losing side since the narrow loss to Clermont last season...yes.. I agree. Of course you probably think the rest of the Saracens pack have been carrying Itoje. I assure you that Mccall is a tough DOR who will only pick players performing regardless of international experience. Brown and Hamilton - two very experienced players are getting less game time than Itoje.

Geordiefalcon Mark Wilson isn't on the radar.

FES I think that just shows how poor THs are in the NH in my opinion because I think Nel and Lee are overrated. Mike Ross is mediocre. Cole has basically owned the England 3 shirt by default. Doesn't matter if he plays well or not.  Perhaps Brookes will push Cole but there's no guarantee. There's a significant drop in experience.


Daly has looked promising this season but unproven at international level. I don't think he's anymore exciting than any other England prospects but because he's flashy he's fashionable.

I guess the answer is to try him - I agree. Daly is not the only young player who should have an opportunity though.

Seems to be quite a bit of double standards on here.

Saying Itoje isn't ready but wanting Hill and Daly in the EPS.....

Personally I want all 3 to be in the EPS. Don't necessarily need to start vs Scotland but need to be given opportunities to prove their worth.

Silly. There is no shortage of quality locks and some good options at 6. With the injury/form situation center is different and we are scrabbling around for options. Maybe if Itoje switched to 12 we would be considering him.

beshocked wrote:

Geordiefalcon Mark Wilson isn't on the radar.

So a strong, hard carrying, hard tackling mobile flanker with good hands who has shone consistently in a poor performing team is not on the radar.

No probs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Geordiefalcon Mark Wilson isn't on the radar.

So a strong, hard carrying, hard tackling mobile flanker with good hands who has shone consistently in a poor performing team is not on the radar.

No probs.

I am sure if he played for a, err different, london based, team he might be..

Wilson has as much chance as Itoje in real terms as neither are quite good enough.

Your probably right Sgt...Saxons at best for Wilson, but I just don't agree that he isn't on the radar.

no 7 & 1/2 Lancaster gets it in the neck from me for poor selection and management. Picking players out of position and at the wrong time.

There's a time to try out new players and not.

Picking Nowell vs France away then not picking him in the RWC when he was playing much better.

Ignoring players like George,Itoje,Ksevic and Ewers in the RWC warm ups.

We are talking about Daly now but he was another player not tried by Lancaster in the RWC warm ups.

Fast tracking Burgess and throwing him to the wolves - horrific man management.

Playing Barritt and Farrell out of position.

There is no short of quality 13s - Joseph,Tuilagi and Burrell yet Daly is practically seen as a shoo in in the EPS despite being in the same boat as others.

I think Daly should be given an opportunity but he's not the only player.

Geordiefalcon what does he offer that no one else does? Every player needs to have a unique selling point. What makes him stand out?

lostinwales quality locks okay let's go through them.

Launchbury - assured
Parling - underpowered
Kitchener - unproven but good prospect
Slater - unproven but good prospect
Kruis - playing well but has he got the potential to be world class? Not convinced
Attwood - flattered to deceive at international level can he deliver the physicality England crave.
Itoje - hugely talented player with massive potential but unproven at international level.
Lawes - not in good form, poor RWC but more experienced than rivals.

I just don't think England can continue to ignore him.

Sgt Pooly Wilson is nowhere near as good as Itoje. Only your Falcons bias would make you think so. Either shows how highly you think of Wilson or how poor you think Itoje is. From your posts it does seem like the latter.

beshocked wrote:
Geordiefalcon what does he offer that no one else does? Every player needs to have a unique selling point. What makes him stand out?

You need to watch him to see that Beshocked.

beshocked wrote:
Launchbury - assured
Parling - underpowered
Kitchener - unproven but good prospect
Slater - unproven but good prospect
Kruis - playing well but has he got the potential to be world class? Not convinced
Attwood - flattered to deceive at international level can he deliver the physicality England crave.
Itoje - hugely talented player with massive potential but unproven at international level.
Lawes - not in good form, poor RWC but more experienced than rivals.

Also, I really don't want to argue or get picky....but how come Slater, Kitchener are a good prospects but unproven at all...launchbury only assured yet Itoje is Hugely Talented with Massive potential yet unproven only at international level.

I would say Slater and Kitchener are both more proven at club level than Itojes half a season or so.

He could be very good however my only live viewing of him the other week when i saw him in the Falcons v Sarries  game and he just didn't stand out for me. I thought both Robinson and Kruis played better. And Robinson is a million Miles from England selection and Kruis is a debater....

So pick players with potential in low pressure games?

TBF to May he was very good in those warm up games. He got his chance as Lancaster saw his form as better than Nowells, the same way Nowell got in.

I'm not overly fussed when players get their chance in regards to importance or opposition. If they're good enough and fit what you're looking for go for it. The question is though Scotland away with anew coach and a statement to make. I would still be looking to get the best set piece because if that goes and they put us under pressure they'll grow in confidence.

Cards on the table it's who partners Launchbury at lock as hes nailed on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cards on the table it's who partners Launchbury at lock as hes nailed on.

I agree, and that other needs to be a lineout demon...which then leads to Kitchener, Lawes, maybe Slater....

Attwood hasn't brought his game to this level but might be worth one more chance and is a lineout man.

When I said Launchbury is assured, I meant assured as a squad member and likely starter.

Geordiefalcon I watched Falcons vs Sarries game and Wilson just didn't stand out for me...

Itoje is only 21 and he just seems to get better and better, the others have made slower progress to international level bar perhaps Launchbury. Slater and Kitchener - still haven't made the step up. Not saying they can't but Itoje is the rising star.

I also prefer Itoje to Kruis as I feel Itoje has more potential.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cards on the table it's who partners Launchbury at lock as hes nailed on.

And here in lies Itoje's problem. He is not strong in the lineout and does not call, a very under valued skill.

I'm not Falcons biased in the slightest. I watch them every week, I know how garbage they are.

Itoje has more potential than them all. He'd probably make the bench but I think we'll see him at 6 at first. The others are just further on.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cards on the table it's who partners Launchbury at lock as hes nailed on.

And here in lies Itoje's problem. He is not strong in the lineout and does not call, a very under valued skill.

I'm not Falcons biased in the slightest. I watch them every week, I know how garbage they are.

Amen Brother

No 7&1/2 wrote:So pick players with potential in low pressure games?

TBF to May he was very good in those warm up games. He got his chance as Lancaster saw his form as better than Nowells, the same way Nowell got in.

I'm not overly fussed when players get their chance in regards to importance or opposition. If they're good enough and fit what you're looking for go for it. The question is though Scotland away with anew coach and a statement to make. I would still be looking to get the best set piece because if that goes and they put us under pressure they'll grow in confidence.

Pick players at the right time. It's not hard, except for Lancaster.

May was mediocre in the RWC and was poor in the 6 nations, world class in training though - nailed on starter.....


Nowell - good club form and strong in the 6 nations - dropped by Lancaster...

That's Lancaster logic.

Geordiefalcon you think Attwood is a lineout demon?

No hes ok in the lineout.

Even you can admit May was good in the warm ups? Can I just check you did understand the point I made on the training thing as you seem under the presumption its the only thing that matters?

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So pick players with potential in low pressure games?

TBF to May he was very good in those warm up games. He got his chance as Lancaster saw his form as better than Nowells, the same way Nowell got in.

I'm not overly fussed when players get their chance in regards to importance or opposition. If they're good enough and fit what you're looking for go for it. The question is though Scotland away with anew coach and a statement to make. I would still be looking to get the best set piece because if that goes and they put us under pressure they'll grow in confidence.

Pick players at the right time. It's not hard, except for Lancaster.

May was mediocre in the RWC and was poor in the 6 nations, world class in training though - nailed on starter.....


Nowell - good club form and strong in the 6 nations - dropped by Lancaster...

That's Lancaster logic.

Geordiefalcon you think Attwood is a lineout demon?

That makes him better than the rest of the RWC England squad. I think its difficult to judge any of them on that debacle...as we'd have to scrap the entire 50 odd players...but we can only do 11

beshocked wrote:When I said Launchbury is assured, I meant assured as a squad member and likely starter.

Geordiefalcon I watched Falcons vs Sarries game and Wilson just didn't stand out for me...

Itoje is only 21 and he just seems to get better and better, the others have made slower progress to international level bar perhaps Launchbury. Slater and Kitchener - still haven't made the step up. Not saying they can't but Itoje is the rising star.

I also prefer Itoje to Kruis as I feel Itoje has more potential.

No they haven't but that may well be as much to do with what Lancaster et al wanted (and in terms of Slater having a bad injury at the wrong time last season). After all Brad Thorne had some very complimentary things to say about Kitchener while he was there (The 'would have been capped by the AB's' one comes to mind.)

This doesn't mean that they should be picked. It does mean that they should be under consideration. We are also talking about tight forwards. They don't tend to mature too early, and Itoje is still very young.

To risk going around in circles again and again, Itoje is still a hell of a prospect, but there are other options available who might well be better now.

Attwood is a strong lineout technician, much better than Itoje anyway.

I'm no May fan but he played well pre WC and deserved his starting spot. Hindsight eh

Slater was excellent for Tigers not only round the park but also at the line-out on Saturday. From when Kitchener went off with a head assessment he ran the line-out and took many of the throws himself, doing both very well.

If Jones is looking to secure a set-piece platform from scrum and line-out then he must be right near the top of his thoughts. He is an anchor in the scrum, excellent in mauls, a strong jumper and a good carrier. Not to mention a leader which a new side needs.

Totally agree Carlos, I'm a big Slater fan.

A partnership of Launchury/Slater could be fantastic if the lineout functions well enough. All the Leicester locks can lead the line as far as I'm aware.

Who goes 6 with that lock pairing.

7 - Probably a fetcher now
8 - Neither Morgan nor Billy can jump

So 6 will have to be a lineout option.

no 7 & 1/2 further on? That's garbage. Kitchener and Slater have just as much international experience.

Sgt Pooly strong enough in the lineout to be part of one of the top lineouts in England and with Borthwick in charge of the lineout I don't see the lineout being an issue.

Who has better lineout stats - Saracens or Bath? It's all and good saying Attwood is a strong lineout technician - the Bath lineout was poor last season, is it any better now?

May looked world class in training according to Lancaster. Doesn't mean he deserved to start ahead of Nowell.

lostinwales when do you pick him then? Wait till he's 25? 30? Should it really be an advantage for a forward to be 25 + before being picked instead of actual experience?

Slater is 27 and Kitchener is 26 - it seems to be they are favoured because they are older, not because they are more experienced (their international experience is the same = zero).

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 further on? That's garbage. Kitchener and Slater have just as much international experience.

Sgt Pooly strong enough in the lineout to be part of one of the top lineouts in England and with Borthwick in charge of the lineout I don't see the lineout being an issue.

Who has better lineout stats - Saracens or Bath? It's all and good saying Attwood is a strong lineout technician - the Bath lineout was poor last season, is it any better now?

May looked world class in training according to Lancaster. Doesn't mean he deserved to start ahead of Nowell.

lostinwales when do you pick him then? Wait till he's 25? 30? Should it really be an advantage for a forward to be 25 + before being picked instead of actual experience?

Slater is 27 and Kitchener is 26 - it seems to be they are favoured because they are older, not because they are more experienced (their international experience is the same = zero).

beshocked as you say none of them are capped but Slater et al are all more experienced and further along than Itoje yes. You really not rate May in the warm ups?

Well guys its all ifs and buts at the moment.

When is the EPS named?

And are we bringing in a scrum coach ?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Totally agree Carlos, I'm a big Slater fan.

A partnership of Launchury/Slater could be fantastic if the lineout functions well enough. All the Leicester locks can lead the line as far as I'm aware.

I'm not certain if Barrow can, as a Falcons fan you may know that better than myself? Given Kitch, Croft and Slater have all been in the side whilst he's been here he hasn't needed to if he can. All three of those guys call the line-out and jump very well though.

Its all gone quiet on the scrum coach. Has he been briefed to go all English?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Who goes 6 with that lock pairing.

7 - Probably a fetcher now
8 - Neither Morgan nor Billy can jump

So 6 will have to be a lineout option.

Robshaw at 6 can jump well enough for a third option usually jumping at the tail.

The line-out problems recently haven't been because of lack of options, they have been due to a lack of confidence in throwing to the middle.

Throwing to the front massively limits attacking options either off the top or from the maul. Throwing to the tail is high risk, high reward. If you overly rely on it then your set piece is left at the mercy of the weather especially.

We need to regain faith in throwing to the middle. It is the hardest place to win line-out ball as it is usually contested but in order to have a function line-out you have to throw there more often than not.

Winning ball in the middle doesn't require three jumpers. Sides with the best line-outs at the RWC tended to have one strong leading jumper and another good jumper in the middle. They just executed basic skills and hit their marks.

Throwing to the tail and using movement with multiple jumpers is good to mix things up but if it is over relied on then things get messy very quickly.

Kruis is the lineout leader at Saracens but you obviously know this. Launchbury foes not lead the line at Wasps.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well guys its all ifs and buts at the moment.

When is the EPS named?

And are we bringing in a scrum coach ?

I'm sure they'll teach him, he didn't at Falcons.

On the line out breakdown, if we take Mr Youngs away from the situation, I'm sure we'll be fine. The line out has never been a issue until he became involved tbh.

I'd hope so on teaching Barrow to call the line-out Sarge. With Kitch, Slater and Croft already capable of calling and Fitzgerald jumping more regularly than him he may have to wait a bit to get much chance there though.

I'll hold my tongue on Youngs as a Tigers fan! It's a subject we have all done to death. With Hartley looking likely as captain for the 6 Nations and George deserving a chance I feel you will get your wish anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its all gone quiet on the scrum coach. Has he been briefed to go all English?

good point.
Maybe the RFU have learned to handle these things with a bit more care?

no 7 & 1/2 those two aren't further along. More experienced? International experience = Zero. All three are playing high level games in the ERCC this season.

I don't care if May is world class in warm ups or training I want him to perform consistently in proper international matches.

Sgt Pooly Kruis is the leader yes but it doesn't make anyone else incapable of the role. Kruis is not the only lineout jumper at Saracens.

As for T.Youngs, perhaps Borthwick will be able to help ickle Tom at the lineout. Hopefully if so he could be a good impact player off the bench.

Ok, just better players at the moment whose strengths are where England are falling short. Are warm ups not useful then, not a real test?

Fingers crossed Carlos, he's the root of all evil! Lol

So Beshocked....Kruis is the line out leader and primary jumper of a very good Saracens line out. Itoje occasionally offers himself as a jumper and you're calling for him to play alongside Launchbury(who is an occasional lumper and doesn't run the line).

Hopefully Jones cares more about our set piece.

1.Marler, Mako
2.Hartley, George, Youngs
3.Cole, Brookes, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Kitchener, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Haskell
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Billy V, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson
10.Farrell, Ford

11.Nowell, May
12.Burrell, Hill
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Rokoduguni
15.Brown, Pennell

That's how I see things going with guys in regular font nailed on, in italics likely to picked and in bold the players I'd go for but am not as certain will be there.

Second row was probably the hardest to put in categories. I'd say that Lawes, Kitchener and Slater are all likely in that individually it wouldn't be a shock to see them picked. However I wouldn't be surprised if all three weren't there with Kruis, Attwood and Itoje also in the mix.

no 7 & 1/2 better players at the moment? Debatable. Depends where you feel England fell short.

I feel England fell short in the lineout,breakdown, leadership - Itoje can add there I believe depending if you pick him at lock or 6. At lock it would be about more at the breakdown, at 6 an additional lineout option.

Sgt Pooly not necessarily calling for him to be along Launchbury, could if it works, could be a bench option. Depends on the balance of the pack doesn't it?

A 4,5,6 of Launchbury,Itoje and Slater has 3 lineout options.

I am suggesting that you keep an open mind.

king carlos said even Robshaw could be a lineout option at 6.

Itoje should be bench at best.

Launchbury, Kitchener, Attwood, Slater and Kruis all ahead at lock

Itoje will find it easier at 6. The main experienced players would be Wood, Robshaw and Haskell, 2 of which most have written off.

Very good squad Carlos, I doubt you'll be very far away.

That looks a very good squad carlos regards simpson at scrum half, i would say yes. but think Wigglesworth will be the third choice to be honest.