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Wales 6 Nations Squad

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:11 pm

Forwards:
Rob Evans (Scarlets), Paul James (Ospreys), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Racing 92), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Dominic Day (Bath Rugby), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Blues), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), James King (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (CAPT) (Cardiff Blues).
Backs:
Aled Davies (Scarlets) *, Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Priestland (Bath Rugby), Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues), Jonathan Davies (Clermont Auvergne), Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons), Jamie Roberts (Harlequins), Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Tom James (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton Saints), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Matthew Morgan (Bristol Rugby), Liam Williams (Scarlets).
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Post by BamBam Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:13 pm

Looks pretty uncontroversial

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:14 pm

Yup - bar Cuthbert still being there...

I also thought Jake Ball was crocked ?
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:15 pm

munkian wrote:Yup - bar Cuthbert still being there...

I also thought Jake Ball was crocked ?

Ball is possibly due back during the tournament, much like Webb.
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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:21 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:Yup - bar Cuthbert still being there...

I also thought Jake Ball was crocked ?

Ball is possibly due back during the tournament, much like Webb.

OK
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:25 pm

Can understand Ball being selected, why would you leave out a 'wrecking ball' of a second row? I've already expressed my feeling on the No.9 selection. Can't understand the selection of Cuthbert either, but even worse has to be Josh Turnbull!

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:27 pm

The squad will be cut at some point.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:30 pm

Munk, I doubt the squad will be 'cut', but I believe the RSA says that player that are not intended to be used on match day (and I assume travelling reserve) are to be released to their region at the start of the week. So odds are all bar 25-26 of them will be back at the regions early on.
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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:34 pm

Fairy nuff.

I'd have thought Dee or Hewitt would have made the cut.
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Post by BamBam Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:36 pm

This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:38 pm

BamBam wrote:This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

Honestly have no idea - I'd rather focus on the rugby than the politics Wink
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Post by chris_501 Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Can understand Ball being selected, why would you leave out a 'wrecking ball' of a second row? I've already expressed my feeling on the No.9 selection. Can't understand the selection of Cuthbert either, but even worse has to be Josh Turnbull!

I actually like the Turnbull selection. We aren't blessed with many physical 6's and I think he's had a good season so far for Cardiff/ Blues.

I agree though that it would have been a good time to bring in Hewitt at the expense of Cuthbert.

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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:44 pm

munkian wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:Yup - bar Cuthbert still being there...

I also thought Jake Ball was crocked ?

Ball is possibly due back during the tournament, much like Webb.

OK

But Ball has been selected, Webb has not.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:48 pm

munkian wrote:
BamBam wrote:This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

Honestly have no idea - I'd rather focus on the rugby than the politics  Wink

That is down to when players moved away, and when they signed contracts etc. Apparently it will kick in properly for next years 6Ns.....
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:48 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
munkian wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:Yup - bar Cuthbert still being there...

I also thought Jake Ball was crocked ?

Ball is possibly due back during the tournament, much like Webb.

OK

But Ball has been selected, Webb has not.

Ah, well, um......guess I better learn to read before I post. Doh
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Post by Guest Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:54 pm

munkian wrote:Fairy nuff.

I'd have thought Dee or Hewitt would have made the cut.

Elliott Dee doesn't really have his case helped when he mixes games with TRT, in my opinion. Hewitt is pretty unlucky though yes.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:59 pm

BamBam wrote:This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

I count one wildcard in Priestland. I believe that Gatland's Law that was implemented this season doesn't effect those already outside of Wales.

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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:01 pm

BamBam wrote:This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

Gatlands Law or the Participation Agreement talks about limiting the selection of players who have chosen to play for sides outside Wales in preference to the Welsh Regions. It is important that this agreement is not retrospective so does not affect players on existing contracts.

By my reckoning this rule only affects two players, Roberts and Priestland and the agreement currently allows for two picks, rising to three next season when a lot more players are likely to be caught in this. These include: Faletau, Charteris, Francis, and North, so some tough choices will be needed. From that list I would chose Roberts, Faletau and North, but I suspect the bad feeling left by Faletau's departure may result in him being one of the victims?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:01 pm

chris_501 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Can understand Ball being selected, why would you leave out a 'wrecking ball' of a second row? I've already expressed my feeling on the No.9 selection. Can't understand the selection of Cuthbert either, but even worse has to be Josh Turnbull!

I actually like the Turnbull selection. We aren't blessed with many physical 6's and I think he's had a good season so far for Cardiff/ Blues.

I agree though that it would have been a good time to bring in Hewitt at the expense of Cuthbert.

He walks around the pitch.

Yeah I would agree with that. If Gatland reverts back to his world cup selection then it should be North, Amos and Anscombe in the back 3 with no sign of Cuthbert Smile.

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Post by True Raven Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:07 pm

Still don't understand why Baker, Rhodri Jones and Thornton have been giving NDC for the next couple of years when they dont look likely to break into that squad anytime soon. Money wasted that could have been used to pay that extra 25k to Faletau......

Feel sorry for Patchell considering i don't think Anscombe is a far superior player and that hes been injured since the world cup and Patchell has played almost every game(??)

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
chris_501 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Can understand Ball being selected, why would you leave out a 'wrecking ball' of a second row? I've already expressed my feeling on the No.9 selection. Can't understand the selection of Cuthbert either, but even worse has to be Josh Turnbull!

I actually like the Turnbull selection. We aren't blessed with many physical 6's and I think he's had a good season so far for Cardiff/ Blues.

I agree though that it would have been a good time to bring in Hewitt at the expense of Cuthbert.

He walks around the pitch.

Yeah I would agree with that. If Gatland reverts back to his world cup selection then it should be North, Amos and Anscombe in the back 3 with no sign of Cuthbert Smile.

Plus Amos has a kicking game and can mix up positioning with Anscombe/Morgan/Sanjay
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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:17 pm

True Raven wrote:Still don't understand why Baker, Rhodri Jones and Thornton have been giving NDC for the next couple of years when they dont look likely to break into that squad anytime soon.  Money wasted that could have been used to pay that extra 25k to Faletau......

Feel sorry for Patchell considering i don't think Anscombe is a far superior player and that hes been injured since the world cup and Patchell has played almost every game(??)

Agreed, some of the NDCs just seemed for the sake of it - is Day really a better long term prospect than Thornton ?

Patchel is a far better all rounder than Morgan - if he wanted 'x' factor he should cap Hewitt.
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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:37 pm

munkian wrote:
True Raven wrote:Still don't understand why Baker, Rhodri Jones and Thornton have been giving NDC for the next couple of years when they dont look likely to break into that squad anytime soon.  Money wasted that could have been used to pay that extra 25k to Faletau......

Feel sorry for Patchell considering i don't think Anscombe is a far superior player and that hes been injured since the world cup and Patchell has played almost every game(??)

Agreed, some of the NDCs just seemed for the sake of it - is Day really a better long term prospect than Thornton ?

Patchel is a far better all rounder than Morgan - if he wanted 'x' factor he should cap Hewitt.

I agree on Patchell, who I think is a better 10 than Anscombe, I not seen enough of Thornton who seems to be a bit of a fringe player at the Ospreys so can't really make a comment. Baker seems also to have slipped down the rankings, but Rhodri is coming back from a very long injury break stretching back to Xmas 2014. Prior to that injury he was beginning to show some signs that he may make a success of the transition from loose to tight head. He will benefit from staying at the Scarlets and getting some game time when Samson is away.

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Post by True Raven Tue 19 Jan 2016, 1:58 pm

I would have dropped Cuthbert too just for his own good. Guy needs to rebuild his confidence and not have 70,000 odd fans jeering him

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Post by BamBam Tue 19 Jan 2016, 2:06 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
BamBam wrote:This isn't intended as a wind up, but I count 10 players who play outside of Wales

How does that fit with "Gatland's law"?

Gatlands Law or the Participation Agreement talks about limiting the selection of players who have chosen to play for sides outside Wales in preference to the Welsh Regions. It is important that this agreement is not retrospective so does not affect players on existing contracts.

By my reckoning this rule only affects two players, Roberts and Priestland and the agreement currently allows for two picks, rising to three next season when a lot more players are likely to be caught in this. These include:  Faletau, Charteris, Francis, and North, so some tough choices will be needed. From that list I would chose Roberts, Faletau and North, but I suspect the bad feeling left by Faletau's departure may result in him being one of the victims?

That explains it!

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Post by GavinDragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 2:33 pm

Gatland likes abbrasive hookers who carry well and get over the gainline.

Dacey > Dee in that regard so I am not shocked by Dee's omission.

And Ashton, while in good form, has not been scintilating. Needs more performances like the Blues game to be seriously considered.

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 2:44 pm

'scintilating' or not he's still in much better form than Cuthbert and possibly North
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Post by gog1992 Tue 19 Jan 2016, 2:59 pm

I feel sorry for Rhys Patchell classy player. He would offer so much more than Anscombe would. I hope that Gatland's doing what he did to Biggar and leaving him out to push him so he improves himself.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:06 pm

IMO Ashton's form has been slightly better than Tom James' and a whole lot better than Cuthbert's.

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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:16 pm

I know back row is highly contested but I would have liked to see Ollie Griffiths given a shot too.
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:18 pm

munkian wrote:I know back row is highly contested but I would have liked to see Ollie Griffiths given a shot too.

I just posted on our thread asking where he was, because he's not in the Wales U20s team either...

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:18 pm

The fact that Priestland has had a change of heart shows his head is not in the right place - He has become a distinctly average player and his performances for Bath have been average at best. Compare that with Patchell playing well in a poor team and it just doesn't seem fair IMO. I'll also buck the trend and suggest the young blonde Scarlets SH is a good player but not much more than that.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:21 pm

I'll agree on Priestland vs Patchell debate too, although I've noticed that Patchell can still be quite erratic in some games. Probably still a better option than Priestland though!

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:28 pm

Roberts and Davies to renew their centre partnership - Amos and North with Liam W at FB all being fit and well. The rest seem to pick themselves.

thumbsup

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:31 pm

I would say that Priestland's U-Turn was down to being asked by the coaching staff, seeing as he has filled in at fullback before for Wales, and we are down to only a currently unfit Sanjay as proper fullback, Gats would like to have him on the bench. Also personally I see Patchell has the same as Priestland but younger.
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Post by munkian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:I know back row is highly contested but I would have liked to see Ollie Griffiths given a shot too.

I just posted on our thread asking where he was, because he's not in the Wales U20s team either...

Im guessing he is injured then ? Dragons are rubbish with injury news
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:42 pm

If he's the same as Priestland only younger then he should be in. He is far more assertive and confident than RP and he has more physicality about him. RP is just one of Gats favs, we've seen it before with the likes of Gareth Cooper. This is a good opportunity to develop the likes of Patchell, maybe next year when he joins the Scarlets and plays with Scott and JD outside him

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Post by Guest Tue 19 Jan 2016, 3:53 pm

munkian wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:I know back row is highly contested but I would have liked to see Ollie Griffiths given a shot too.

I just posted on our thread asking where he was, because he's not in the Wales U20s team either...

Im guessing he is injured then ? Dragons are rubbish with injury news

They released an update last week and he wasn't on there. But two Newport fans said he was injured, one going as far as to say he was on crutches. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned by Kirwan or Davey, if that is true.

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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 4:14 pm

Huge squad, a lot of these guys will be just holding tackle bags!

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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 4:59 pm

True Raven wrote:I would have dropped Cuthbert too just for his own good.  Guy needs to rebuild his confidence and not have 70,000 odd fans jeering him

People who jeer and boo their own players are not fans. I am sure most true rugby fans would be embarrassed to be classed in the same group as the soccer style fans who boo and jeer their own players.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 19 Jan 2016, 5:23 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
True Raven wrote:I would have dropped Cuthbert too just for his own good.  Guy needs to rebuild his confidence and not have 70,000 odd fans jeering him

People who jeer and boo their own players are not fans. I am sure most true rugby fans would be embarrassed to be classed in the same group as the soccer style fans who boo and jeer their own players.

There are plenty of those at Wales games these days.

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Post by True Raven Tue 19 Jan 2016, 6:08 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
True Raven wrote:I would have dropped Cuthbert too just for his own good.  Guy needs to rebuild his confidence and not have 70,000 odd fans jeering him

People who jeer and boo their own players are not fans. I am sure most true rugby fans would be embarrassed to be classed in the same group as the soccer style fans who boo and jeer their own players.

There are plenty of those at Wales games these days.

Exactly, first mistake he makes, people in the stadium will be on his back (ala what happens to priestland). Under Danny Wilson he seems to be slowly getting better. Leave him at the blues and get Hewitt into the environment or even Dirksen

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Post by Guest Tue 19 Jan 2016, 6:54 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:IMO Ashton's form has been slightly better than Tom James' and a whole lot better than Cuthbert's.

I think the problem with this is that Hewitt's a young, small player who is relatively inexperienced at pro12 level, let alone international, which is a significant step up. The other two have played internationally, Cuthbert significantly so, and Tom James has played to a standard between international and pro12 whilst at Exeter. They were both intended to play in the World Cup as well. Experience counts for something, although not at the expense of other factors.

One of those is the types of players in question. James and Cuthbert are very similar: poor footballers who are good with space to run into. Hewitt can operate in smaller spaces, using his agility, but he cannot use his bulk in these circumstances like the other two can when unable to step out of trouble. On top of this, you must also consider the significant differences between Test rugby and Pro12 rugby. Where in a league game, a Dragons winger may receive the ball 4 or 5 times in good attacking positions where they are coming onto the ball at pace, attacking the gainline, the same player may get one opportunity, or none at all, playing for Wales. This is exacerbated by Wales' poor midfield distribution from Roberts, and arguably Jon Davies when he plays alongside him, but also because of the gameplan Gatland favours.

Therefore, if your winger is not getting the ball where he can break down the wing or finish off an overlap, what is he doing? He is fielding up and unders, cross field kicks, returning kicks to the backfield (both through running and kicking it back), tackling, clearing out/shielding rucks in your own 22, and hopefully coming infield to receive a ball off the inside shoulder. The vast majority of those attributes do not favour an inexperienced winger with Hewitt's build, not least one who shows attacking prowess in his domestic league and second tier of Europe, but who is far from consistent in either.

I understand why Hewitt hasn't been picked. That said, I'm loathe to support Cuthbert's inclusion, he is nothing short of atrocious; whilst I understand the necessity to play him in the World Cup, I cannot fathom how he is still being selected. Tom James, on the other hand, deserves his place. In my opinion, had he not been injured in the training camps, he would have started against England. Not only does Gatland like throwing a curveball like that in the big games from time to time, he's also a more effective version of Cuthbert, so it seems reasonable he would have opted for James over Amos who, despite his deceptive tenacity and strength for his size, was still in danger of being outgunned by a big English side. Also, Tom James is a very good defender; against NZ in 2010 (I think, without checking, may well have been his most recent cap as well?) he did nothing with ball in hand, but was very solid all game, never taking a backward step or looking ill at ease (or tackling with his fingers/hands like North, or hoping they run into his back, like Cuthbert).

I should point out, this is my assessment of Gatland's Wales, in many ways a coach antithetical to the values and style of Welsh rugby, which evidently has its positives and negatives for the country. He clearly does not favour fleet footed players over larger, more solid ones, despite the tendency of Welsh fans to venerate those who have the former. Also- and this is important- simply showing signs of being a good player should not necessitate a call up to the national side. I know there is a hypocrisy in place when certain players appear to be picked regardless of form or effectiveness, yet there is something to be said for earning a place in the team, and that should not be six months into your first or second season of showing signs of pedigree, rather than consistent class, which would merit a call up.

If I were to select the squad, I would certainly not have Cuthbert in it, but equally I would not select Hewitt, as it is too soon. Let him develop.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 7:07 pm

Well you don't get experience if the coach isn't willing to give it I guess.

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Post by True Raven Tue 19 Jan 2016, 7:21 pm

miaow wrote:

I know there is a hypocrisy in place when certain players appear to be picked regardless of form or effectiveness, yet there is something to be said for earning a place in the team, and that should not be six months into your first or second season of showing signs of pedigree, rather than consistent class, which would merit a call up.

If I were to select the squad, I would certainly not have Cuthbert in it, but equally I would not select Hewitt, as it is too soon. Let him develop.

In an ideal world I'd agree but we don't have halfpenny available, liam williams has barely played since March , Eli walker is short of confidence, steff Evans is a full back on the wing so it leaves cuthbert, Hewitt and Dirksen left to fill the fourt wing spot in the squad. I'm not advocating Hewitt to start but training with the squad can't hurt or even playing against the scots or Italians

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Post by Seagultaf Tue 19 Jan 2016, 7:37 pm

Eli Walker is made of glass, if he could get himself fully fit and free from injuries for a few months he could be a Wales starter. North is playing reasonably well for Northampton but his Wales form has dropped through the floor. Cuthbert is still way off form, James is a bit like Cuthbert, good with the ball and a liability without it. Amos and Liam are recovering from injuries. So no problem at wing!

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 7:41 pm

True Raven wrote:
miaow wrote:

I know there is a hypocrisy in place when certain players appear to be picked regardless of form or effectiveness, yet there is something to be said for earning a place in the team, and that should not be six months into your first or second season of showing signs of pedigree, rather than consistent class, which would merit a call up.

If I were to select the squad, I would certainly not have Cuthbert in it, but equally I would not select Hewitt, as it is too soon. Let him develop.

In an ideal world I'd agree but we don't have halfpenny available, liam williams has barely played since March , Eli walker is short of confidence, steff Evans is a full back on the wing so it leaves cuthbert, Hewitt and Dirksen left to fill the fourt wing spot in the squad.  I'm not advocating Hewitt to start but training with the squad can't hurt or even playing against the scots or Italians

The thing is though, his 'inexperience' was alluded to as being a factor when it's not. You should also note, miaow, that Hewitt is more experienced than Halfpenny and North when they made their debuts Smile.

I wouldn't have had Cuthbert or Dirksen there Raven, both very limited players.

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Post by Fanster Tue 19 Jan 2016, 8:04 pm

I'm going to make a case FOR Cuthbert...

Firstly, with so much disruption at FB, with halfpenny the williams getting crocked, Anscombe covering, talk of Amos and Morgan, the last thing you want to do is disrupt the unit more, Cuthbert and North have been stalwarts, and it looks likely that one of Anscombe, Amos or Morgan have to either start, or play considerably. All three are inexperienced at this level, and new to the international squad, therefore having 2 experienced wings, despite their current form makes sense to negate a weakness in the unit.

On form I would hav gone with James, then Hewitt, however neither of these players have had much exposure to this system and ethos in place, and both would be in line for a starting birth in Ireland.

Once Liam Williams is fully fit, and / or halfpenny returns you can consider ditching an experienced wing in poor form, until then its safety first.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Jan 2016, 8:17 pm

I really don't get this. There was a case FOR Cuthbert during the world cup because of 'his experience' coupled with team Wales' injuries and we all know how that went for him, unless you were sat under a rock the whole time. So how is there still a case FOR Cuthbert, how can their possibly be a case when his form is still that bad?!


Last edited by mikey_dragon on Tue 19 Jan 2016, 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Fanster Tue 19 Jan 2016, 8:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I really don't get this. There was a case FOR Cuthbert during the world cup because of 'his experience' coupled team Wales' injuries and we all know how that went for him, unless you were sat under a rock the whole time. So how is there still a case FOR Cuthbert, how can their possibly be a case when his form is still that bad?!

Because it's better the devil you know, would you prefer Morgan and Anscombe, or Hewitt to be on the park in Dublin? Sexton and co would have a field day with that side of the park, and even if it didn't prove disastrous it would put us on the back foot from the off.

I'm not saying Cuthbert is good, or that I like him, but there is a strong case of reducing disruption to a unit when it's already disrupted.

I think this is the reason we continually see Lydiate over Tipuric, Lydiate is a constant, whereas Warburtons style of play gets him injured constantly. It's better to have ready made replacements than to totally disrupt units.

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