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Which Saracens players should be in the England squad?

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Which Saracens players should be in the England squad? Empty Which Saracens players should be in the England squad?

Post by Matty the Sarrie Thu 02 Jun 2011, 10:02 pm

Obviously there are now a host of talented English players at Saracens, all who have had mega seasons and won the Premiership to prove it. Which ones do you believe deserve to be in the England squad, out of:

Owen Farrell
Andy Saull
Brad Barritt
Steve Borthwick
Mouritz Botha
Matt Stevens
James Short
Alex Goode
Jamie George

I believe that all have the credentials to play for England, now or in the future. But then I am a Sarries fan, and see them every week, where there could be players who deserve to be in it ahead of them!

Thoughts?

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Post by TackleBag Thu 02 Jun 2011, 10:13 pm

For me, the only Saracens that have a chance of being in the England WC squad are Barritt, Stevens and Strettle.

Barritt is an ideal 12 for England. Solid defensively and has a good kicking game.
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Post by Matty the Sarrie Thu 02 Jun 2011, 10:16 pm

TackleBag wrote:
Barritt is an ideal 12 for England. Solid defensively and has a good kicking game.

I have been saying that for the last two years. How Hape got in the team ahead of him is a disgrace.

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Post by snoopster Thu 02 Jun 2011, 10:50 pm

Owen Farrell - Saxons (he's limited currently but does the basics very well and needs bringing on - not up to first team standard yet but if he keeps developing as he has then he will be in a couple of years)
Andy Saull - Saxons (just missing out - there are a lot of good backrows for England qualified and he's in the queue waiting his chance_
Brad Barritt - Should be competing with Allen for the inside centre spot, ahead of Hape.
Steve Borthwick - please no, he's solid and tries hard but just not good enough to be more than a stop gap at international level.
Mouritz Botha - Not English in my view (not that he's a bad player I'm just not afan of players who move as adults and qualify)
Matt Stevens - Should be in the squad
James Short - Looks like he should be in the Saxons, I've not seen enough of him to really know but he looks very promising.
Alex Goode - Should be in the squad, back up to Foden ahead of Armitage
Jamie George - heard good things but not seen enough of. Very young for a front row still so probably in the Under 20s for now (or is he too old?)

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Post by DaDubs1 Thu 02 Jun 2011, 10:52 pm

Surely it'll be atleast another 3 years till a Saracens player is qualified for England?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 03 Jun 2011, 10:40 am

Farrel...not ready and not so good he demands a place
Saull ... not good enough, theres a ton of England backrow players who have peformed at international level. As it is someone will be dissapointed to be left at home
Barrit...yeah maybe
Borthwick...If Palmer wasnt fit Id have him back on playing and lineout leadership grounds ( England really struggled without him making the calls) but it could be disruptive to have him around the squad. As it is we know hes never going to set the world on fire, Id rather have someone who could add some real fire.
Botha...not good enough to justify inclussion in the senior squad
Stevens ... should and probably will be in the 40 if not the final 32
Short...No way near the senior squad
Goode...should be Fodens understudy and go to the world cup. Surely must be ahead of Armitage now
Strettle ... Is the bound to go to the world cup as they now consider Banahan a center. Makes him 3rd in the wing pecking order.


Theres only two Saracens players Id be suprised to not see in teh England WC squad. A third is a probable, and fourth a possible. Th others would have to rely on injuries to get there.

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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 11:18 am

Stevens should be in the squad. Barritt should be in the squad. Strettle should be in the squad. No others.
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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 11:39 am

snoopster wrote:Brad Barritt - Should be competing with Allen for the inside centre spot, ahead of Hape.

Mouritz Botha - Not English in my view (not that he's a bad player I'm just not afan of players who move as adults and qualify)

Matt Stevens - Should be in the squad


Err, Barritt and Stevens moved moved here as adults and you say should be in the squad, yet Botha shouldn't, as he moved here as an adult. Doh

Nothing like contradicting your own argument is there.

🤦

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Post by snoopster Fri 03 Jun 2011, 12:21 pm

Both were qualified before moving here.

Please pay attention to what people have said if you are going to claim they wrong 🤦


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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 12:36 pm

So Brad Barritt born in Durban, played all of his junior rugby in South Africa, played for South Africa U21's in the 2006 U21 Rugby World Championship, then played for the Emerging Springboks in the 2007 IRB Nations Cup before coming to England because Francois Steyn took his place in the Sharks team is ok, on the basis that he for one reason or another holds a UK passport making him eligible to play for England,

But

Mouritz Botha who was born in Vryheid, played all of his junior rugby in South Africa, did not represent South Africa at any level beofre coming to England in about 2005 and played amateur rugby for Bedford Athletic, before getting picked up by Bedford Blues and then Saracens, and qualifies through residency having been here for about 6 years is not ok because he doesn't hold a UK passport.


Utter nonsense point of view to hold mate, sorry but it is.
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Post by snoopster Fri 03 Jun 2011, 1:11 pm

You can disagree with my view point if you like - just don't spout nonsense by failing to read half of my reason as you did.

For me, I find your view point utter nonsense (not least as you admit you don't even know how Barritt qualifies for England) as I see a clear difference in sporting terms between someone who has been raised by an English parent regardless of place of birth and someone who moved over here as an adult to make money out of rugby and stayed long enough to qualify.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 1:17 pm

So just because he has an English parent that makes him a bona fide Englishman then does it? Despite the fact that he has repesented South Africa and clearly would have stayed there had he not lost his place in the Sharks team. How is that better than a man who has no ties to this country, but packs up and comes over, plays amateur rugby here and qualifies as per the existing rules.

Barritt is no more English than Botha is. They both speak with a South African accent, and are South Africans. They both qualify to play for England, albeit by different means. How you can possibly belive that one is ok to play for England and one is not is beyond me. Either they both are, or they both are not.
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Post by snoopster Fri 03 Jun 2011, 2:16 pm

albeit by different means.

And yet despite you knowing there is a clear difference you can't understand why someone should see them as different?

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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 2:24 pm

No, I can't. they were both born abroad, they both spent their formative years abroad, they both played professional rugby abroad before arriving here as adults, because both failed to hold down a starting berth in their team abroad.

Just because one has a UK passport and one qualified through residency I do not see them being any different.

Do you really think that Barritt suddenly, having represented the Springboks at a number of levels thought to himself, "actually old chap, do you know what, I'm English, I'm going to go 'home' to England and become an England international."

No, Sarries offered him more £££'s than he was getting in Durban where he was struggling to make the team as a result of the emergence of Francois Steyn.

He is no more English than Nelson Mandela, just because he holds a UK passport. Every person born in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is entitled to hold a UK passport, but they are not all English either.
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Post by Glas a du Fri 03 Jun 2011, 2:31 pm

Britz is quite good.
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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 2:33 pm

Glas a du wrote:Britz is quite good.

Sadly he's capped Glas or we'd definitely have him Wink
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Post by Glas a du Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:03 pm

LDCPete wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Britz is quite good.

Sadly he's capped Glas or we'd definitely have him Wink

Sorry Pete, it's Friday and it's hot. I think the phrase I'm looking for is hook, line and sinker!

Yahoo

(your force do play the obvious game, don't they?)
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Post by snoopster Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:18 pm

LDCPete Today at 2:24 pm

No, I can't.

I know, you are making it painfully clear that you can't grasp that other people don't think like you do.

Just because one has a UK passport and one qualified through residency I do not see them being any different.

Seems we're pretty clear you don't see them as being any different and I'm sure there are people who agree with you - now take a deep breath and try to understand that I do see them as different as do other people.

This is a really pointless carry on, isn't it?

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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:19 pm

I think the phrase is agree to disagree.
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Post by B91212 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:22 pm

Owen Farrell - Too soon, looks a good prospect
Andy Saull - Probably the leading specialist open side in England at the moment (better than S. Armitage in my view) but England don't play with a specialist 7 and won't make the squad.
Brad Barritt - Agree with others, should have been given a run at 12 long before now. Won't make the squad but hope he becomes England's 12 after the WC.
Steve Borthwick - No thanks, not enough to his all round game.
Mouritz Botha - Don't agree with the 3 year residency rule (should be at least 6) although regardless of that don't think he is an better than Robson or Day, who are behind Lawes, Shaw, Deacon & Palmer
Matt Stevens - Should make the final squad and can see him making the first choice 22 as reserve prop.
James Short - Good prospect but not even close
Alex Goode - Agree with others, should be back up to Foden and can play 10 in an emergency meaning England only need to take Flood & Wilkinson to the WC and leave extra space in the squad in another position
Jamie George - See James Short

Add David Strettle - Not convinced. I know the stats say he's beaten the most defenders but I would much rather have Simpson-Daniel ahead of him. Think he will make the squad though as the 3rd winger.


Last edited by B91212 on Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by bathmad Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:25 pm

Stevens, Barritt, Strettle, Goode.

Done.

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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 3:25 pm

Goode is an interesting one. Provides cover in multiple places and could be a good bolter. If he gets it it will be by skin of his teeth.
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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 4:41 pm

snoopster wrote:LDCPete Today at 2:24 pm

No, I can't.

I know, you are making it painfully clear that you can't grasp that other people don't think like you do.

Just because one has a UK passport and one qualified through residency I do not see them being any different.

Seems we're pretty clear you don't see them as being any different and I'm sure there are people who agree with you - now take a deep breath and try to understand that I do see them as different as do other people.

This is a really pointless carry on, isn't it?


I appreciate perfectly well that others may not think like me, but I obviously had the mistakenly held belief that this was a debating forum and if you disagreed with somebody you argued your point and explained your reasons for holding that opinion. If as you say, it is a pointless carry on, then what exactly are we all doing here?
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Post by snoopster Fri 03 Jun 2011, 4:56 pm

No problem with debating - it seemed to have very quickly got to the point we'd both made our views clear though so there didn't seem much point in keeping repeating them but slightly more angrily each time.

We'd cleared up that though you think I'm being inconsitent I don't since you missed out part of what I said to make it work. What do you think there is too add?

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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 5:01 pm

Pete, there is a difference between debating an issue and flogging a dead horse Smile
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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 5:45 pm

Fair enough, but a couple of points for the record.

1. Apologies if my posts came across as being angry because I wasn't and they were not intended to be.

2. I didn't think we had come to a natural end as a result of differing opinions and my next point was going to be opening up the whole 'qualification' issue as I thought that despite disagreeing we were having a decent debate.


Anyhow, in answer to the original question, only Stevens, Barritt and Goode should be near the WC squad and none of them are a given.
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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 5:46 pm

You have a new challenger Pete. What are your views of the qualification issue. To be honest we probably agree.
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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 03 Jun 2011, 5:54 pm

Stag, I'll start a thread on it in a bit after the kids are in bed to save hijacking this one any further.
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Post by red_stag Fri 03 Jun 2011, 5:55 pm

We had a big debate about it yesterday too - mainly Leinsters Richardt Strauss qualifying for Ireland.
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Post by Countnefarious Sat 04 Jun 2011, 12:29 am

I think Quins' Robsen and Brown deserve to be in ahead of Botha and Goode.

To be fair, Botha and Robsen are pretty evenly matched, but, given their equal abilities, I'd opt for the "English man." Wink

Goode is good (had to), but he lacks the consistency of the ridiculously underrated Mike Brown who has actually been the form fullback in the premiership this season. ALWAYS breaks the first line of defense, ALWAYS makes his tackles, ALWAYS takes the high ball, etc. Goode has moments of magic (when he's on he's really on) but I don't think he's as dependable or as commited to the cause as Brown. As I say, Goode is a quality player, but surely Brown should be considered next in line behind Foden. TBH I see Abendanon as third choice FB, ahead of Goode.

Stevens and Barrett should go to the WC, and I actually prefer Short to Strettle. Probably a tad unlikely for him though since he's not even been picked for the Saxons.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 04 Jun 2011, 8:32 am

red_stag wrote:Pete, there is a difference between debating an issue and flogging a dead horse Smile

Neigh Erm

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Post by Tom-Dick-Harry Sun 05 Jun 2011, 2:36 pm

I would prefer Goode to be picked over Brown because whoever is picked will almost certainly not be starting and in that case it is more useful to have a player who can cover at both fly-half and fullback in an emergency plus Goode does offer more options than Brown on the pitch in terms of his kicking,.

I'm not sure Barritt is what England need as a backup centre I would prefer someone with more pace.

As for Botha he is so unlucky why he is always subbed when he outperforms Bothwick every week I will never know.

I would say Goode, Strettle, Stevens make it with Barritt and Botha just missing out

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Post by Countnefarious Sun 05 Jun 2011, 9:04 pm

If Wilkinson and Brown were on the bench then there'd be no no need for someone that can play both FH AND FB. Wilkinson could cover FH and centre, and IF Banahahan is playing centre, he could move to wing if needed. No problems.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 05 Jun 2011, 9:53 pm

Alex Goode should be in the squad, we need a backup to Foden/Armatage.
the chyances are unless Armatage changes his ways he will not be going to NZ because he we be banned for so many games.

Brad Barrit should be in the squad for a centre spot.

David Strettle in the squad back up for the wing spot. But having watched the Saxons yesterday Miles Benjamin, Charlie Sharples are realy knocking on the door.

Matt Stevens Deffo in the full england squad.

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