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Sir Muhammad

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Post by Atila Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:46 am

Muhammad Ali knighthood petition gathering pace with Anthony Joshua and London mayor Boris Johnson among those calling for boxing legend to be honoured
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/boxing/article-3466162/Muhammad-Ali-knighthood-petition-gathering-pace-Anthony-Joshua-London-mayor-Boris-Johnson-calling-boxing-legend-honoured.html

The petition launched for boxing legend Muhammad Ali to receive an honorary knighthood is quickly gathering pace.

Ali is due in London in the next few days to open a major exhibition at the O2 Arena dedicated to his life and career; and 12,000 people have already signed a Change.org campaign set up by former world heavyweight champion David Haye.

London mayor Boris Johnson, Olympic boxing champions Anthony Joshua and Nicola Adams, and Hollywood actor Luke Evans, are among those demanding Britain honours the star widely regarded as 'The Greatest' in his sport.

As well as for his prowess in the ring, Ali is also lauded for his contribution towards the fight against racism, while his refusal to fight in the Vietnam war confirmed his status as a pop culture icon.

Olympic gold medallist Joshua, now bidding to win the world heavyweight title, told the London Evening Standard: 'What makes Ali such a role model is the battles he had to go through. He was fighting through the civil rights movement.

'He was more than just a boxer, he was a leader for many people.'

Conservative Party MP Johnson added: 'As a child, bashing the top of an old ropey black and white telly, I would sit mesmerised by grainy images of a hero who seemed to float above his opponents: the grace, guile, speed of hand.

'From race relations to religious freedom, he fought tireless and principled struggles all his life. I can't think of a more fitting recipient of an honorary knighthood.'

Previous non-UK nationals to have received honorary knighthoods include the late broadcaster Terry Wogan, U2 lead singer Bono and film director Steven Spielberg.

Ali, now aged 74 suffering from Parkinson's disease, won 56 of his 61 professional fights and became the undisputed world heavyweight champion hanging up his gloves in 1981.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 10:42 am

It's been given to worse, but he shouldn't get it.


'From race relations to religious freedom, he fought tireless and principled struggles all his life'

Boris obviously didn't realise when Ali made those venomous remarks in

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 10:49 am

Those venomous (racist) remarks to Parky in the first interview, he actually meant them. And he certainly never read Ali's playboy interview when he says black women who sleep with white men should be killed. Or realised that Ali addressed the KKK on behalf of the NoI, to discuss their mutual interests. And we're not when starting on Ali being a member of a deeply racist and sectarian organisation like the NoI.

But that was his youth.

Ali was not the human rights activist he's been made out to be, in hindsight. He was a bitter, angry young man with immense talent and amazing fortitude. And for that he deserves all the accolades he gets.

But to pretend he was some sort of MLK is a joke.

It's pure popularism to capture the black vote. But, as I said, there's been worse get knighthoods.

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Post by Rowley Sun 28 Feb 2016, 10:59 am

Agree with much of what you say Happy. The deification of Ali has already gone too far, he is a truly great fighter and as an individual is clearly more good than bad, but frigging hell where will it all end. He has a book published on him seemingly daily, some centre named after him daily almost as regularly and now this. Balance seems to have gone completely out of the window when assessing Ali's contribution to society.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 11:06 am

It was that comment that triggered me, because he wasn't deeply principled in those issues his entire life. He was a bitter man for nearly all his career in the spotlight, as a boxer. His views on race were truly abbhorant during that period.

Now, I can understand his views given where he was brought up but they weren't nice. He wasn't even a nice bloke to his wife, parading his mistress in front of the world's media, rather than his missus, during the rumble in the jungle.

None of this distracts from his talent or achievements but doesn't make him a human rights activist akin to MLK or Mandela.


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Post by milkyboy Sun 28 Feb 2016, 11:24 am

Fair points... I mean if Ali actually wanted a knighthood, surely a few quid donated to whichever party is in power, would be a less controversial way.

He was an angry, naive and impressionable young man when thrust into the limelight... And  a symptom of his time, place and position.  I agree that the human rights stuff needs to be treated with a firm note of caution. But then he was an icon and hero to many of all creeds and colours so as sporting ambassadors go it's a different story.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

One has to remember Ali grew up in the South......It's a fact ignorant types on here seem to forget "Seemingly daily"..

Blacks were treated scandalously in the South...Lynchings, Couldn't use toilets, theaters, restaurants, shops, inferior schools, beaten up and killed with no redress from authorities that were white.... inferior schools, no chance of decent jobs....

Who could blame anybody for being bitter or anti-white.....

Johnson's civil rights bill didn't get passed until 64.....and power of enforcement was very weak.....Kennedy's bill but he didn't have the clout to get it through !!.

However Ali displayed many generous acts towards white people....forged relationships with white people that stood the test of time.....Became a good ambassador and made Boxing one of the most popular sports of it's day....

Knighthoods are a Brit thing and stupid they are too......So I don't think he should get one..

The deification can't go far enough for me..


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Post by kingraf Sun 28 Feb 2016, 12:06 pm

Can Americans get knighthood? Genuinely ignorant on the subject. Thought it was a commonwealth thing
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Post by Dipper Brown Sun 28 Feb 2016, 12:08 pm

Truss, you're right about knighthoods being stupid. I say this as a Welsh socialist but it's part of all that quaint, archaic nonsense that people associate with the UK. Couldn't be further from the culture I identify as British. Good on David Bowie for turning it down!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 12:15 pm

Talking about socialists.....Bernie got murdered last night..

Game over.......

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 1:42 pm

Truss, I don't think anybody is denying the context or not acknowledging it.

But that doesn't detract from the fact he wasn't principled. Angry and bitter is not principled, however understandable it may be.

In fact, his bitterness made him the very opposite of principled, a reactionary. Reacting against his injustice with an equal but opposite, as evident from his own admission of talking to the clan.

As I said, I can understand why he was bitter but a principled person is more reflective and avoids the reactionary because they're aware they become the very thing they despise. Ali did that.

He was so angry and brainwashed by the NoI he didn't even realise the hypocrisy of taking the name Mohammad. 'Threw of his 'white' slave name to take on another slave masters name isn't bright. But he wasn't a white slave master.

On a totally trivial note. Clay was Ali's 'slave name', but surely his parents named him Cassius. I wonder how they felt about him shrugging off the name they gave him?

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Post by Atila Sun 28 Feb 2016, 1:52 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One has to remember Ali grew up in the South......It's a fact  ignorant types on here seem to forget "Seemingly daily"..

Blacks were treated scandalously in the South...Lynchings, Couldn't use toilets, theaters, restaurants, shops, inferior schools, beaten up and killed with no redress from authorities that were white.... inferior schools, no chance of decent jobs....

Who could blame anybody for being bitter or anti-white.....

Johnson's civil rights bill didn't get passed until 64.....and power of enforcement was very weak.....Kennedy's bill but he didn't have the clout to get it through !!.

However Ali displayed many generous acts towards white people....forged relationships with white people that stood the test of time.....Became a good ambassador and made Boxing one of the most popular sports of it's day....

Knighthoods are a Brit thing and stupid they are too......So I don't think he should get one..

The deification can't go far enough for me..

Really agree with the bit in bold. Which is why I too cut him some slack for things he said when he was young.

Yep, knighthoods are stupid too.

Who cares what his parents thought about him changing his name? Plenty of famous people have changed their names. Do we wonder what their parents thought about it? Let him call himself what he wants.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 1:54 pm

Principled enough to not go to Vietnam even though his career was in jeopardy..

I said I couldn't blame anybody being bitter and angry...Never said he was..

Our formative years are very important...Ali managed to find a way to transcend color later on and considering the trying times he grew up in I'm willing to cut him slack..

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:11 pm

'Principled enough to not go to Vietnam even though his career was in jeopardy'

Principled suggests he had a moral compass and stuck to it. How did not going to Vietnam fit in with that moral consistency?

There are numerous bitter, petty or stupid reasons to not go. Simple anger at the US state, because the NoI told him etc.

Sorry, Ali lied in his youth, and often. About throwing the medal in the river, his 'slave name', to his wife (very publicly).

Just because Ali said he did it in principle doesn't make it so. He supposedly threw his medal in the river out of principle.

If you give him slack because he was from the south, you must have adored Frazier!

Again, I understand his bitterness and anger but don't totally justify his actions. He should have had the self awareness to realise what a hypocrite he was. But I can cut him slack.

But I don't see any evidence for him being consistent and, therefore, principled.

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Post by AdamT Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:17 pm

Muhammad Ali was loved in Britain before anywhere. I'd say knight him. Greatest sports icon ever.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:21 pm

You must be one helluva guy not to have lied in your youth..Happy..

As for Vietnam he was a conscientious objector.....You question his stance from a negative position which you are entitled to do..

Think you are being a little harsh buddy...


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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:42 pm

Happytravelling wrote:Those venomous (racist) remarks to Parky in the first interview, he actually meant them. And he certainly never read Ali's playboy interview when he says black women who sleep with white men should be killed. Or realised that Ali addressed the KKK on behalf of the NoI, to discuss their mutual interests. And we're not when starting on Ali being a member of a deeply racist and sectarian organisation like the NoI.

But that was his youth.

Ali was not the human rights activist he's been made out to be, in hindsight. He was a bitter, angry young man with immense talent and amazing fortitude. And for that he deserves all the accolades he gets.

But to pretend he was some sort of MLK is a joke.

It's pure popularism to capture the black vote. But, as I said, there's been worse get knighthoods.

Judging a man from the past by your modern perspectives.

Ali represented a voice which developed among African Americans of that time who's mouthpiece was Malcolm X a friend of Ali at the time. This voice
demanded that blacks should have the same rights as everybody else, to be respected and enjoy the same social status as everyone else and they were not going to beg for it.

MLK represented another voice for African Americans which wanted the same things but from a pacifist standpoint. MLK got a holiday and a famous speech for his efforts.

Both voices were necessary and needed, Ali preferred the former don't judge him for it. It grew out of the 60's which was a very remarkable decade where people of all types expressed themselves, if only people had the same spirit today.

I think Ali became more then a sportsman and he is a hero from our sport so I would welcome Ali getting a knighthood, saying that if it was offered back in the early 70's he more then likely would have declined lol.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:44 pm

I did but I never pretended to be a flag bearer for mortality and have never been offered up as one. If somebody did, I'd happily put them straight. I would never allow the promulgation of such a myth. To do so would be hypocritical.

Ali isn't just guilty of a few, insignificant white lies. He's guilty of whoppers and gross hypocrisy into the bargain. How long did he perpetuate the 'principled' myth about throwing the medal in the river? What sort of shister takes his mistress to his greatest ever moment, leaves his wife and family at home and thinks his wife won't find out! I'd like to see you carry that off with Mrs truss!

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:49 pm

'Judging a man from the past by your modern perspectives.'

No, I'm judging Ali by his own hypocrisy. He was bitter about the racism he felt but gave huge support to the NoI, a racist and anti semetic organisation. Hated the results of segregation, but spoke to the KKK about his shared views on the subject.

I have no problems honouring his significant achievements. But his myth portrays him more and more like MLK and Mandela with every passing documentary. Two men who were truly principled. As was Louis, for that matter.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:49 pm

Happytravelling wrote:I did but I never pretended to be a flag bearer for mortality and have never been offered up as one. If somebody did, I'd happily put them straight. I would never allow the promulgation of such a myth. To do so would be hypocritical.

Ali isn't just guilty of a few, insignificant white lies. He's guilty of whoppers and gross hypocrisy into the bargain. How long did he perpetuate the 'principled' myth about throwing the medal in the river? What sort of shister takes his mistress to his greatest ever moment, leaves his wife and family at home and thinks his wife won't find out! I'd like to see you carry that off with Mrs truss!

You don't want Ali getting a knighthood but Jimmy Savile is ok???

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:50 pm

Let's strip all the people with knighthoods who have cheated on their Wives..

Probably be about five left...

Like I said you are a product of your upbringing....and his was in a City full of hate...

My guess is your upbringing was somewhat easier..

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Post by Rowley Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:50 pm

Grow up one two. At what point has he said that?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:53 pm

You have to cut Ali a lot of slack for his attitude in his early years, in context it is understandable and justified to hold such views, easy in 2016 to say he was wrong that however isn't true of the 50's and 60's.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 2:58 pm

Truss, so your saying the tougher your upbringing the more latitude you have to do wrong? Frazier had a much tougher upbringing than Ali so how much slack should he get?

He didn't just have a sneaky affair, he left his wife and kids at home to find out about his affair on the world news, as he paraded her around Zaire. As heartless acts of infidelity goes, that's about as bad as it gets.

Just how did all those every day, principled African Americans in the southern states ever get about their daily lives without having affairs etc.?

Truss, I can cut him some slack on some of his anger and bitterness, stuff undertaken in the heat of the moment, but stuff like addressing the KKK, lying about the medal and making it was a matter of principle, doing the dirty on his wife was just selfish, self serving and deliberate.

As a person, it just means he's fallible, and we all are. But this is an thread debating about he was principled and deserves honouring for that.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:04 pm

Hammer, I cut him some slack. I'm not sure I can justify him joining the NoI or addressing the kkk, as it is so overwhelmingly inconsistent with his challenge to the prejudices he faced. In effect, it suggests he wasn't opposed to prejudice, just prejudice against himself, that is he wasn't principled just self serving.

I've no great problem with him being self serving. The majority of people are. I have problem with dressing it up as principle, when it obviously wasnt.

But perhaps, I am principled in believing deception and lying are not to be admired

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:06 pm

Happytravelling wrote:'Judging a man from the past by your modern perspectives.'

No, I'm judging Ali by his own hypocrisy. He was bitter about the racism he felt but gave huge support to the NoI, a racist and anti semetic organisation. Hated the results of segregation, but spoke to the KKK about his shared views on the subject.

I have no problems honouring his significant achievements. But his myth portrays him more and more like MLK and Mandela with every passing documentary. Two men who were truly principled. As was Louis, for that matter.

Your hero's, not my hero's

Remember a Native American talking about the celebrated hero's of American folklore who, important and loved by white European Americans, were hated by Native Americans and were seen as villains. Both peoples have different histories in America but to get along without conflict they had to except each others past and beliefs. This is no different for African Americans. They have their own identity, you cant expect people to adopt your identity, beliefs, or even culture to make you happy.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:06 pm

Happytravelling wrote:Truss, so your saying the tougher your upbringing the more latitude you have to do wrong? Frazier had a much tougher upbringing than Ali so how much slack should he get?
.

I'm saying everyone is a product of their upbringing.....If I'm treated appallingly by a race of people I'm going to bear grudges..

I've had an affair and I was old enough to know better...

We all make mistakes...and I imagine Ali has regrets as we all do..

However lots of white people adore him and many are friends..

Different times mate..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:10 pm

Unless you're in that position it's hard to be overly critical regardless of that HT, as a white male I cannot fully appreciate what it must have been like to a be a black man in the Southern states. Prejudice does create prejudice in reverse and it's much of Martin Luther King's greatness as a human being that he was able to rise above it in order to unite rather than segregate.

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Post by Lance Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:11 pm

If Ali has principles then he should turn his knighthood down. I worked in the music industry for 30 years so I know what some people have done in order to be part of this elite. Saville is not some one off freak, there's plenty of skeletons to be uncovered if National Security were to allow it

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:13 pm

I do appreciate he is a product. Most abusers are a product of abuse etc. But you can't say it's OK to abuse because you've been abused. That's a viscous cycle and, as I've said, reactionary and not principled.

I understand your point. But if you follow your logic to conclusion, the more abused the more you can forgive. Where does that end?

But he was by no means the most abused person in the south. He was one of the darlings of the US Olympic boxing team. So, if you cut him slack for supporting the NoI etc. How much slack do you give those with greater grievance. Frazier was not a pampered amateur, he came from real, dirty poor share croppers.

Ali matured, no doubt. But his early views were hypocritical and often vile.

He wasn't deeply principled his whole life, which was my original point.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:17 pm

People keep mentioning MLK but Ali was not a follower of MLK's principles.

King had a positive message that was full of hope, love and the chance for a better tomorrow. While King was saying ''I have a dream'' Malcolm X was saying ''...by any means necessary'' as I said before both voices sprung out of the climate of the times and both were able to elevate the people mentally and socially.

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Post by jimdig Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:19 pm

I don't think it's really fair on him being knighted, he's in no fit state to wield a sword. Isis must be Poopie themselves.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:20 pm

Sorry Hammer, that's slightly weak. MLK and literally millions of poor African Americans managed to show integrity and moral fortitude to not react to hate with hate.

I appreciate this is not easy and I give people slack for reaching. But the point people are trying to make is Ali was principled, more so than average. He wasn't.

I'm not being overly critical. Even Ali, if he held any principles as he claimed, must have realised the NoI were racist and certainly must have realised the KKK were. Fighting racism by siding with racists must have occurred to him was hypocrisy.

Who thinks the way to combat racism is to side with racists?

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:30 pm

Happytravelling wrote:Sorry Hammer, that's slightly weak. MLK and literally millions of poor African Americans managed to show integrity and moral fortitude to not react to hate with hate.

I appreciate this is not easy and I give people slack for reaching. But the point people are trying to make is Ali was principled, more so than average. He wasn't.

I'm not being overly critical. Even Ali, if he held any principles as he claimed, must have realised the NoI were racist and certainly must have realised the KKK were. Fighting racism by siding with racists must have occurred to him was hypocrisy.

Who thinks the way to combat racism is to side with racists?

You are quite naive.

You cant judge him for his beliefs or companions you have to appreciate the times that he lived in back then. Also Ali cut all ties with the NOi but back then they offered a voice to African Americans at a turbulent time for them. You would know this if you were able to understand the climate.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 3:44 pm

Happytravelling wrote:Sorry Hammer, that's slightly weak. MLK and literally millions of poor African Americans managed to show integrity and moral fortitude to not react to hate with hate.

I appreciate this is not easy and I give people slack for reaching. But the point people are trying to make is Ali was principled, more so than average. He wasn't.

I'm not being overly critical. Even Ali, if he held any principles as he claimed, must have realised the NoI were racist and certainly must have realised the KKK were. Fighting racism by siding with racists must have occurred to him was hypocrisy.

Who thinks the way to combat racism is to side with racists?

No one has said he's more principled than anyone else..

But he has made principled stances...

If you're looking for plenty of Mother Teresa characters in this life...You'll be disappointed..


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Post by Kareem61 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 5:47 pm

Does onetwo just spend his time trying to bait people on here? As Rowley has already stated, grow up!

I think, having read this thread that people are missing the point happy is making. There's a lot of hyperbole thrown around with regards to Ali. Great boxer? Obviously. Did he transcend the sport? Most certainly. But worthy of a knighthood on the grounds listed above? Not for me.

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Post by kingraf Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:20 pm

Mandela was no better in his youth though. Okay he didn't work with a KKK equivalent, but he was quite happy to begin a war for equality if need be. Its funny that; seems growing up in a hostile setting in turn makes you more likely to be hostile.

I have a lot of respect for MLK but being a pacifist doesn't make you the sole bastion of liberation.
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Post by kingraf Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Happytravelling wrote:Sorry Hammer, that's slightly weak. MLK and literally millions of poor African Americans managed to show integrity and moral fortitude to not react to hate with hate.

I appreciate this is not easy and I give people slack for reaching. But the point people are trying to make is Ali was principled, more so than average. He wasn't.

I'm not being overly critical. Even Ali, if he held any principles as he claimed, must have realised the NoI were racist and certainly must have realised the KKK were. Fighting racism by siding with racists must have occurred to him was hypocrisy.

Who thinks the way to combat racism is to side with racists?

No one has said he's more principled than anyone else..

But he has made principled stances...

If you're looking for plenty of Mother Teresa characters in this life...You'll be disappointed..


Mother Teresa. If ever a human was over rated.
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Post by milkyboy Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:25 pm

...indeed raf... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The difference often depends on who gets to write the history.

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Sir Muhammad Empty Re: Sir Muhammad

Post by Rowley Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:39 pm

I think the pont HT is making, and he is welcome to correct me if wrong, is that when it comes to Ali so many of his actions so much has been airbrushed or rewritten to fit the Saint Ali narrative it gets hugely frustrating. Nobody is arguing joining the noi is not understandable in the context of the times but this does not change the fact they were a racist segregationist organisation with some shamefully bigoted views on women, as such whilst joining them may have taken balls it hardly warrants praise.

Similarly his treatment of Frazier was shameful. Frazier was a decent man who lets not forget campaigned for Ali to be reinstated when banned yet Ali mocked him tirelessly, and even when it was apparent this had hurt joe personally and damaged his public image Ali did little to try to undo the damage.

For me awards such as the proposed knighthood only serve to perpetuate the Saint Ali myth, rather than allowing for an honest appraisal of his character and standing. He is not a bad man by any stretch but nor is he the myth perpetuated by both the press and indeed Ali to some extent.

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Sir Muhammad Empty Re: Sir Muhammad

Post by kingraf Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:39 pm

milkyboy wrote:...indeed raf... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The difference often depends on who gets to write the history.


100%. History really is written by the winner. Winners aren't always forthright with the truth. Remember watching an animé (hush down) where one of the characters (it was a prelude to a war between Marines and Pirates) said "Justice will prevail? Of course it will. Whoever wins this war will become the law!"

Ali's views in his youth are obviously out of vogue, but to pretend its illogical for any person who was faced with what he was faced to be angry.
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Post by AlexHuckerby Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:52 pm

Yes because Frazier was clearly such a political guy?

I think there are many myths about the greatness of Ali. But, he was a good person overall.


NoI had an idea of complete segregation, blacks to live with blacks. Reason being, it was extremely difficult and seriously trying times attempting to integrate. I couldn't possibly imagine being a black male in the 50's and 60's, of course Ali could be disgusted when his attention was brought to the horrible things white people were doing AND GETTING AWAY WITH, in terms of lynching mobs and general HORRENDOUS behaviour towards black people. Throughout history, first slaves then 60 years after slavery is abolished in the 1920's 1 in 5 Americans were part of the KKK. In some ways the NoI and the KKK wanted similar things, segregation, it was at the time a genuine solution andni can see how you can come to that conclusion. Not saying it's the right thing to do, but I can see how as a black person seeing and hearing all these horrendous things happen you would turn to that. As for what he did with his wife etc. Well, it's not good, it's not clever or funny. But at the end of the day, that's his business with his wife and their personal lives. Towards the mid 60's you have to remember how much hate and negative energy was driven towards Ali. It can make a person feel as though it's him and a few fellow supporters are against the world. You have to remember the stand that America had on the Vietnam war at one point, villifying Ali, to later make him come out looking a saint, but during those difficult times there is understandable hate and for a person who probably wasn't the most academically gifted and a little easier to nudge in a direction he could end up with the views he had. Not saying everyone would, but simply saying Frazier had a harder upbringing (and I'm well aware of what his upbringing was) still doesn't mean he has experienced and learned the same things as Ali which makes a person different. The thing is I can forgive with Ali is his heart was genuinely in the right place, he did want peace, he wanted real freedom for black people, he did work with MLK when MLK started fighting the Vietnam war himself and he used Ali as a poster boy to gather black Americans. Too many black Americans put on the front lines to die for a country that they were treated as second class citizens in made no sense, and I can see the fight.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

What do you mean many myths about his greatness ??

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Post by AlexHuckerby Sun 28 Feb 2016, 7:00 pm

Rowley wrote:I think the pont HT is making, and he is welcome to correct me if wrong, is that when it comes to Ali so many of his actions so much has been airbrushed or rewritten to fit the Saint Ali narrative it gets hugely frustrating. Nobody is arguing joining the noi is not understandable in the context of the times but this does not change the fact they were a racist segregationist organisation with some shamefully bigoted views on women, as such whilst joining them may have taken balls it hardly warrants praise.

Similarly his treatment of Frazier was shameful. Frazier was a decent man who lets not forget campaigned for Ali to be reinstated when banned yet Ali mocked him tirelessly, and even when it was apparent this had hurt joe personally and damaged his public image Ali did little  to try to undo the damage.

For me awards such as the proposed knighthood only serve to perpetuate the Saint Ali myth, rather than allowing for an honest appraisal of his character and standing. He is not a bad man by any stretch but nor is he the myth perpetuated by both the press and indeed Ali to some extent.

I think when it came to Ali and selling fights, all the antics etc. Were jokes, there was of course a competitive rivalry there also, but I don't think Ali at the time truly realised how much it hurt Frazier. Ali was the one who wanted to be friends after, it showed to me it was all just fun and games to Ali who didn't really realise how much it hurt him, the uncle Tom comments etc. Constantly talking about how ugly Joe was and stupid he was (which Frazier wasn't really) he was incredibly disrespectful but I don't think Ali saw it as that and justified it as something that came part and parcel with boxing. Ali clearly had spiteful moments in his career, the Terrell fight and the Patterson fight showed this, but generally I don't think he meant it all with a genuine spite with Frazier. He clearly had increidble admiration and respect for Joe. "They told me you was all washed up Joe"

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 7:06 pm

Oh I do..Ali could be spiteful and Uncle Tom was the worst thing you could have called a black man back then....

Frazier had visited Nixon at the White house and Ali and his clan used that to show he was a white symbol...

Ali treated Frazier poorly....I think he regretted it..

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 28 Feb 2016, 8:19 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh I do..Ali could be spiteful and Uncle Tom was the worst thing you could have called a black man back then....

Frazier had visited Nixon at the White house and Ali and his clan used that to show he was a white symbol...

Ali treated Frazier poorly....I think he regretted it..

Ali gave Frazier 3 of his biggest paydays.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Sun 28 Feb 2016, 9:05 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What do you mean many myths about his greatness ??

Outside of the ring, I mean. Yeah, sure he was a great character and stuff, but what the general population nowadays see him as this guy that was an all smiling great guy. Don't think that was necessarily the case. No one is like that. All I mean really.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 28 Feb 2016, 9:38 pm

You've got a point........I guess it's human nature when someone isn't relevant or a threat anymore to remember their good qualities in and out of the ring......

Just like all fighters get better after they have been retired a while......

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Post by TopHat24/7 Mon 29 Feb 2016, 9:59 am

Happytravelling wrote:Truss, I don't think anybody is denying the context or not acknowledging it.

But that doesn't detract from the fact he wasn't principled. Angry and bitter is not principled, however understandable it may be.

In fact, his bitterness made him the very opposite of principled, a reactionary. Reacting against his injustice with an equal but opposite, as evident from his own admission of talking to the clan.

As I said, I can understand why he was bitter but a principled person is more reflective and avoids the reactionary because they're aware they become the very thing they despise. Ali did that.

He was so angry and brainwashed by the NoI he didn't even realise the hypocrisy of taking the name Mohammad. 'Threw of his 'white' slave name to take on another slave masters name isn't bright. But he wasn't a white slave master.

On a totally trivial note. Clay was Ali's 'slave name', but surely his parents named him Cassius. I wonder how they felt about him shrugging off the name they gave him?

Good luck pushing water uphill....

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Post by Guest Mon 29 Feb 2016, 10:19 am

Ali was once quoted as saying that anyone who thinks in their 50's the same way they did in their 20's has wasted 30 years of their life. You never know, maybe Tyson Fury will turn out to be a champion for gay and feminist rights in 30 years time.

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