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Sir Muhammad

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Post by Atila Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:46 am

First topic message reminder :

Muhammad Ali knighthood petition gathering pace with Anthony Joshua and London mayor Boris Johnson among those calling for boxing legend to be honoured
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/boxing/article-3466162/Muhammad-Ali-knighthood-petition-gathering-pace-Anthony-Joshua-London-mayor-Boris-Johnson-calling-boxing-legend-honoured.html

The petition launched for boxing legend Muhammad Ali to receive an honorary knighthood is quickly gathering pace.

Ali is due in London in the next few days to open a major exhibition at the O2 Arena dedicated to his life and career; and 12,000 people have already signed a Change.org campaign set up by former world heavyweight champion David Haye.

London mayor Boris Johnson, Olympic boxing champions Anthony Joshua and Nicola Adams, and Hollywood actor Luke Evans, are among those demanding Britain honours the star widely regarded as 'The Greatest' in his sport.

As well as for his prowess in the ring, Ali is also lauded for his contribution towards the fight against racism, while his refusal to fight in the Vietnam war confirmed his status as a pop culture icon.

Olympic gold medallist Joshua, now bidding to win the world heavyweight title, told the London Evening Standard: 'What makes Ali such a role model is the battles he had to go through. He was fighting through the civil rights movement.

'He was more than just a boxer, he was a leader for many people.'

Conservative Party MP Johnson added: 'As a child, bashing the top of an old ropey black and white telly, I would sit mesmerised by grainy images of a hero who seemed to float above his opponents: the grace, guile, speed of hand.

'From race relations to religious freedom, he fought tireless and principled struggles all his life. I can't think of a more fitting recipient of an honorary knighthood.'

Previous non-UK nationals to have received honorary knighthoods include the late broadcaster Terry Wogan, U2 lead singer Bono and film director Steven Spielberg.

Ali, now aged 74 suffering from Parkinson's disease, won 56 of his 61 professional fights and became the undisputed world heavyweight champion hanging up his gloves in 1981.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:02 am

Happytravelling wrote:'Now you say I am defending Ali's racism. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I DID SO.'

The numerous points where you tried to deminish Ali's violent racism by seeking equivalence with Churchill's (by modern standards) clumsy comments.

'Churchil said worse things then Ali that pretty much revealed him as a white supremacist and you call them mistakes???'

You're pretending that clearly advocating killing people just because of racial indiscretions is better than implying that some cultures are inferior (which has potential subjectivity).

Haha mate go to bed your views are disgusting.

I brought up Churchill to express the point that great men revered the world over have said or done things that run counter to our western beliefs today but that does not make them any less of a hero. If you don't think Ali inspired, supported, and elevated people in a positive way then you are alone in that regard. Many people who knew Ali who were white, Jewish etc were well aware of his views back then but they knew the real man and the social climate at the time and they still admire the man and would shut you down in an instant.


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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:02 am

I still can't believe you try to draw equivalence between Ali's call to murder based on skin color and Churchill's comment that stone age cultures of America and Australia were subsumed by the modern, industrial cultures.

If you think Churchill's comments were worse, as you say. You truly are blinkered.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:12 am

Happytravelling wrote:I still can't believe you try to draw equivalence between Ali's call to murder based on skin color and Churchill's comment that stone age cultures of America and Australia were subsumed by the modern, industrial cultures.

If you think Churchill's comments were worse, as you say. You truly are blinkered.

Again you defend Churchills statement on the treatment of Aborigine and Native American Indians as a matter of technological advancements. As I have said before say this to one of the above and you will get a rebuke of your deranged claims.

I will say it again Ali made racist, vulgar statements but you cant seem to say the same of Churchills which is WHY I suspect your motives.

Maube you should understand historical developments from both sides of the fence

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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:14 am

And now you reach for subjective statements and insults!

Trump has lots of supporters to. Your point?

Again, I go back to my first objection, that the article said Ali deserved a knighthood because of his lifetime commitment to civil rights. I protested because I didn't believe he had. You argued with me and eventually admitted, yes, he was racist and, questionably, had an interest in civil rights. So, you agreed with me but argued anyway.

So, you didn't have an argument and we finished with insults and subjective statements about 'everybody' knowing Ali was great (even if, along the way we established that the public's view was based on lies etc).

You don't get logical argument and discussion do you?

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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:24 am

'Again you defend Churchills statement on the treatment of Aborigine and Native American Indians as a matter of technological advancements. As I have said before say this to one of the above and you will get a rebuke of your deranged claims.'

I don't try and defend his comments at all. I simply point out it's subjectivity. You speak for nations and tell me American Indians and Aboriginals are deeply offended by this. I'm glad for your self appointed post as ambassador for these people.

'I will say it again Ali made racist, vulgar statements but you cant seem to say the same of Churchills which is WHY I suspect your motives.'

You are a brazen liar. You clearly said what Churchill said was worse! Let me remind you:

'Churchil said worse things then Ali that pretty much revealed him as a white supremacist and you call them mistakes???'

So, have you admitted Ali said vulgar statements or have you deliberately tried to obfuscate the argument by pretending they were not that bad by relating them to Churchill? And you FAILED!

Sorry, I need to sleep and arguing you round in circles is getting dull.

Anybody reading this argument will see your paucity of argument, so I'm happy.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:24 am

'Again you defend Churchills statement on the treatment of Aborigine and Native American Indians as a matter of technological advancements. As I have said before say this to one of the above and you will get a rebuke of your deranged claims.'

I don't try and defend his comments at all. I simply point out it's subjectivity. You speak for nations and tell me American Indians and Aboriginals are deeply offended by this. I'm glad for your self appointed post as ambassador for these people.

'I will say it again Ali made racist, vulgar statements but you cant seem to say the same of Churchills which is WHY I suspect your motives.'

You are a brazen liar. You clearly said what Churchill said was worse! Let me remind you:

'Churchil said worse things then Ali that pretty much revealed him as a white supremacist and you call them mistakes???'

So, have you admitted Ali said vulgar statements or have you deliberately tried to obfuscate the argument by pretending they were not that bad by relating them to Churchill? And you FAILED!

Sorry, I need to sleep and arguing you round in circles is getting dull.

Anybody reading this argument will see your paucity of argument, so I'm happy.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:58 pm

I hope the MODS take a look at your disgusting statements.

They (Adam) seem more then happy to single me out but you can obviously get away with your vile views that only a coward would type.

Tell me, was the holocost driven by an extreme hate for European Jews or is there a more plausible explanation for the final solution according to your twisted ideology.

I bet you feel real tough sitting behind your keyboard you might feel right at home signing up to the many various neo nazi websites like stormfront that like you view the systematic murder, r***, and enslavement of native Black and Indian people with a vile twisted sense of national pride.

You really are a real POS.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:01 pm

Shut the f*ck up ONETWO.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:02 pm

You know what you can do Hammersmith

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Post by Rowley Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:10 pm

Keep it civil. This is an interesting subject. Just because someone hold an opposing view to you does not necessarily make them racist. Insults will only see the thread locked and folk banned, which nobody wants to see.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:18 pm

Rowley wrote:Keep it civil. This is an interesting subject. Just because someone hold an opposing view to you does not necessarily make them racist. Insults will only see the thread locked and folk banned, which nobody wants to see.

Fair enough

I take back my insults caught up in the moment.

but I think happy has strange views. On the one hand he chastises Ali's comments back in the 70's which is fair enough but then he defends other obvious racist comments made by other hero's of the past. Why is it that Churchills endorsement of white supremacy are according to happy a mistake but Ali's are clear statements of intended racism.

Something to think about.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:22 pm

It's the fact you are unable to appreciate the difference between being an imperialist which Churchill was and being a white supremacist which he was not.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:39 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's the fact you are unable to appreciate the difference between being an imperialist which Churchill was and being a white supremacist which he was not.

Its the fact that you need to separate the 2 in the first place. When Churchill talks about ''A higher grade of race'' annexing another what do you think he was getting at. I understand that its difficult to look back at ones past and accept the events that took place but no 1 race has been pure as snow, all races have committed heinous acts of genocide as was perpetrated against the native American Indians and the Aboriginal blacks of Australia.

We have been conditioned to think that white supremacy started and finished with Hitler but infact this ideology was practised in the Americas, South Africa, Australia, the Congo, Namibia, New Zealand, Ethiopia, India etc. Only our history books refer to these events as the Imperial age.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:49 pm

Onetwo, the fact you can't see you've contradicted yourself tends to highlight you're not too discerning in this subject.

You clearly stated a page ago that Ali was not racist. You then said, above:

'I will say it again Ali made racist, vulgar statements'

I reiterate, he was a member of a racist organisation and gave it significant sums of money (not to mention publicity and validity), he made deeply racist comments and he held meetings with the KKK to discuss their similar views. If you support racists, make racist comments and keep the company of racists, you're a racist. But you've been desperately trying to deny that point, despite, eventually, admitting to all the points.

Now, he wouldn't be the first young person to grow up and leave extremism behind, and good on him. Better to realise eventually than not at all. But we've clearly established that the period that most people attribute to his works in human rights was a period he was, in fact, a racist.

Now, onto Churchill. Whose comments you said were worse. There's no doubt Churchill was an imperialist but that doesn't necessarily make him a racist.

As I pointed out, there is context and so with it some subjectivity to his statements about naive Americans and Aboriginals. They were pre industrial cultures. At no point does he mention their skin colour or even their intellectual or moral inferiority. So, you've no evidence from that quote alone it was racist. That's you transposing into it.

Now, Ali said if a BLACK person slept with a WHITE person they should be killed. Not only is it plainly racist (although you tried to pretend he wasn't) it's violently racist.

Sorry I couldn't find the full interview. I saw the transcript a little while ago. It had a number of questions where Ali gave racist and vile answers. I think it was only black women who slept with white men deserved death. Black men who slept with white women got a lesser punishment.

But, as you can see, my comments are still here and others agree with what I've said.

So, you need to look to yourself and your own biases and prejudices because you seem to think killing people because they fratinised with other races is less racist than saying pre industrial cultures were bound to get overwhelmed by industrial cultures, as is happening in the world as we speak. Which is truly disturbing.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:16 pm

I know exactly what I have said throughout this thread I said Ali is not a racist but he did make racist comments when younger. I have also tried to stress that this does not make Ali any less of an inspirational figure regardless of your misgivings I brought up Churchil to express the point that Churchil has also said things that are racist and worse imo but I still except he was and is an inspirational figure.

Let me put it this way for you.

YOUR hero's, NOT my hero's

Euro Americans celebrate Christopher Columbus native Americans see him as a villain get it.

You call Ali a racist and I will happily say the same about Churchill going by his statements but we're they heroic inspirational figires??? I say ABSOLUTELY.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:29 pm

As for your views being allowed to be freely posted I say fine it's not my website but I will challenge these views where ever they raise their heads.

You have defended Churchills statement where he disregarded the plight of both the aboriginal and native American Indians by what he labelled and I qoute a "higher grade of race". You say he was talking from a cultural/technological Imperialistic standpoint.

So tell me happy from what standpoint do you see was the holocaust?

Was that a simple question of German imperialism? Or did they hate the Jews for being Jews? As the were the master race after all a sort of higher grade race if you like.

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Post by Happytravelling Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:53 pm

You really don't know when to give up, do you?

'I said Ali is not a racist but he did make racist comments when younger.'

Semantics, the last resort of the lost cause. Only, he didn't JUST make racist comments did he? He was a member and major benefactor of a racist organisation. You don't deny this.

He is on film admitting he held council with the deeply racist organisation (although few members admit it. Like you are with Ali) the KKK on their similar views. Again, you don't deny that.

So, you admit he made deeply racist comments, admit he was a member and funded a racist group and admit he had meetings with racists to discuss their similarities BUT you still maintain he wasn't a racist....

Sounds like it's that last step you're struggling with and you're in denial because of your hero worship.

For the record, Churchill isn't a hero of mine. I've argued his failings plenty of times but, in my opinion, he was more worthy of the epithet hero and less of a racist than Ali was in his youth.

Further, you continue writing in this board but don't value the opinions of the mods. Another odd contradiction. You're full of them!

But you finally lose it when you draw parallels with the final solution. Please, slap yourself. You need it. If you can't see the difference between a mandated, racially motivated extermination of people and a review of historic circumstance you're a lost cause in this debate.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:50 pm

Haha happy it's been a pleasure debating with you. You are a warped individual but that's fine.

Don't take defeat to badly I hope to argue with you on other topics.It is apt that we are engaging each other on the boxing forum . You are the equivalent of a brave proud fighter who is throwing aimlessly in the dying seconds despite getting outclassed and takeing 1 hell of a beating. I thought the mods would intervene like a good ref should but I will have to end this here and now.

You have avoided my questions and you have been found out you are babbling now.


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Post by aja424 Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:15 am

Why do you not class Christopher Columbus as a hero?

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Post by Duty281 Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:49 am

Happytravelling wrote:You really don't know when to give up, do you?

'I said Ali is not a racist but he did make racist comments when younger.'

Semantics, the last resort of the lost cause. Only, he didn't JUST make racist comments did he? He was a member and major benefactor of a racist organisation. You don't deny this.

He is on film admitting he held council with the deeply racist organisation (although few members admit it. Like you are with Ali) the KKK on their similar views. Again, you don't deny that.

So, you admit he made deeply racist comments, admit he was a member and funded a racist group and admit he had meetings with racists to discuss their similarities BUT you still maintain he wasn't a racist....

Sounds like it's that last step you're struggling with and you're in denial because of your hero worship.

For the record, Churchill isn't a hero of mine. I've argued his failings plenty of times but, in my opinion, he was more worthy of the epithet hero and less of a racist than Ali was in his youth.

Further, you continue writing in this board but don't value the opinions of the mods. Another odd contradiction. You're full of them!

But you finally lose it when you draw parallels with the final solution. Please, slap yourself. You need it. If you can't see the difference between a mandated, racially motivated extermination of people and a review of historic circumstance you're a lost cause in this debate.

My good fellow, you're absolutely wasted on debating the idiotic ramblings of OneTwo.

Well done on showing him up, though. thumbsup

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Post by Atila Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:10 am

Duty281 wrote:
Happytravelling wrote:You really don't know when to give up, do you?

'I said Ali is not a racist but he did make racist comments when younger.'

Semantics, the last resort of the lost cause. Only, he didn't JUST make racist comments did he? He was a member and major benefactor of a racist organisation. You don't deny this.

He is on film admitting he held council with the deeply racist organisation (although few members admit it. Like you are with Ali) the KKK on their similar views. Again, you don't deny that.

So, you admit he made deeply racist comments, admit he was a member and funded a racist group and admit he had meetings with racists to discuss their similarities BUT you still maintain he wasn't a racist....

Sounds like it's that last step you're struggling with and you're in denial because of your hero worship.

For the record, Churchill isn't a hero of mine. I've argued his failings plenty of times but, in my opinion, he was more worthy of the epithet hero and less of a racist than Ali was in his youth.

Further, you continue writing in this board but don't value the opinions of the mods. Another odd contradiction. You're full of them!

But you finally lose it when you draw parallels with the final solution. Please, slap yourself. You need it. If you can't see the difference between a mandated, racially motivated extermination of people and a review of historic circumstance you're a lost cause in this debate.

My good fellow, you're absolutely wasted on debating the idiotic ramblings of OneTwo.

Well done on showing him up, though. thumbsup
Nothing wrong at all with ONETWO's opinions. To be honest, the more posts that I read from Happytravelling, the more I think that Ali should be knighted and given a wing at Buckingham Palace.

While I'm at it, I don't even see why ONETWO was given a two day ban for his earlier comments on this thread.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:11 am

Thanks atila I have had no support on this thread.

Just to clarify my point...

Ali is imo a hero and he was a symbol for inspiration for all peoples not just blacks but yes he said things that run counter to out beliefs today but time has passed and he matured and has done an awful lot for charity and causes all over the world. To me his name should not be muddied for his beliefs in his youth and I brought up Churchill because like Ali he said some very questionable statements that offend me but I still see the importance of the man he was a great leader.

I think happy should try and see life through the eyes of others and empathize a little .

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Post by kingraf Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:22 am

Chris Columbus is a hero? He didn't even really discover America! At best he's a poor navigator
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Post by Rowley Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:32 pm

I think my big bug bear with the whole Ali thing is for me there are two Ali's. For the last 30 years there has been Ali mk II who has come to represent a lot of things, all of them largely laudable, such as peace, love and understanding to quote Elvis Costello. Ali is rightly and fairly commended for his commitment to these.

Where I get slightly frustrated is the airbrushing out of history or desire to super impose these values onto Ali mk I and to suggest he always represented these things, as quite clearly as a young man he did not represent or champion these things. I should say I cannot even begin to imagine what it is like growing up as a black man in the South of America in the 60s (neither can anyone else on here I might add) and in the circumstances he grew up in segregation may well have seems a sensible and practical path to pursue, but to dress it up as consistent with the man and his values now is just balderdash.

As I say I would not especially criticise Ali for the man he was at 21, I dread to think anyone would have given me a platform for the arse gravy I dare say I spouted as a kid, Ali is guilty of no less than being young. What irritates me is those who seek to beatify the man pretending some of the more unpleasant things he said or did, did not happen. He did meet with the KKK, he did treat Frazier shamefully and undeservedly badly and his views and treatment of women was at times nigh on Neanderthal. As I say, he is probably guilty of little more than being young, but to pretend he was the man he is now then is disingenuous and a completely false narrative.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:50 pm

Oh dear. A well thought out well considered sensible balanced and structured post.

Sadly not being African-American (whom nobody on here is as far as I'm aware, even the arch protagonist) your post will be considered at best, worthless, and at worst, racist.

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Post by huw Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:06 pm

On the Ali KKK thing, my feeling on this is that Ali didn't feel there would ever be equality and instead opted for a complete separation. This doesn't make him a racist although the times he grew up in and the things he would have witnessed in a very backwards time would have been enough to justify him actually being a racist (it would have been hard not to be).

The Vietnam war thing I see as a bit different. Always felt that Ali was scared to go to Vietnam and didn't trust his government not to get him killed - he was very outspoken and they could have had him killed there very quietly to get rid of a mouthy problem.

For me the objector side of things was fed to him by NOI who were happy to use him for the publicity / glamour that went with him. It seems to me like a lot of the things he was saying and doing were the teachings a young man was given at a time he was receptive to such teachings. Almost like brain washing.

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Post by Sidestep Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:11 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Haha happy it's been a pleasure debating with you. You are a warped individual but that's fine.

Don't take defeat to badly I hope to argue with you on other topics.It is apt that we are engaging each other on the boxing forum . You are the equivalent of a brave proud fighter who is throwing aimlessly in the dying seconds despite getting outclassed and takeing 1 hell of a beating. I thought the mods would intervene like a good ref should but I will have to end this here and now.

You have avoided my questions and you have been found out you are babbling now.


wow..   that was a painfully desperate reply.  I hate being made to look wrong as well...Does anyone remember when Jab Judah threw that chair after Kostya Tszyu?

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Post by kingraf Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:44 pm

huw wrote:On the Ali KKK thing, my feeling on this is that Ali didn't feel there would ever be equality and instead opted for a complete separation. This doesn't make him a racist although the times he grew up in and the things he would have witnessed in a very backwards time would have been enough to justify him actually being a racist (it would have been hard not to be).

The Vietnam war thing I see as a bit different. Always felt that Ali was scared to go to Vietnam and didn't trust his government not to get him killed - he was very outspoken and they could have had him killed there very quietly to get rid of a mouthy problem.

For me the objector side of things was fed to him by NOI who were happy to use him for the publicity / glamour that went with him. It seems to me like a lot of the things he was saying and doing were the teachings a young man was given at a time he was receptive to such teachings. Almost like brain washing.

To be honest, I'm pretty satisfied if he stopped at "I just don't wanna go". Its a crazy world when going halfway around the world to die for a cause you don't understand is seen as brave (and this is not meant in a disrespectful way to anyone who is or has been in the forces). Couple years ago a couple dozen SA soldiers died in Congo (I think, might have been CAR) and everyone was so sad, and congratulated them for putting their lives on the line for their country, which is all well and good, but what the FVCK were they doing there in the first place?? Same thing happens in the States, watch any talk show where a woman or man says my husband fought in Iraq, and the audience will go into cued applause and the host will say something along the lines of "We appreciate your husband for fighting for our freedom".... WHAT? You invaded the wrong fvcking country!!
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:36 pm

Happytravelling wrote:

But the quote exemplifies the myth that Rowley and I are challenging, one where he becomes more saintly with passing years.

I think he's a more simple and less flattering character than his fans wish to believe, that's all.

These weren't principled stands, he was just a young, angry man who realised principles were a more socially acceptable justification, so that's the line he spun. Doesn't really make him better or worse than many young men.

But, it doesn't make him principled, during that period. And I gave many examples where he was anything but.

Obviously he's matured with age and it would be odd if he didn't. But the reasons people give for his 'greatness' are not what he did when he got older, they are his refusal to take the draft etc and they do it for erroneous reasons.

And sorry, I don't swallow the shpeel that he should be forgiven everything because he was black and from the south. I can understand him being angry but siding with racists against racism is a clear hypocrisy that shows he wasn't measured and principled. Frazier was also black and from a much more disadvantaged background..

1. No one is saying he should be forgiven everything......We are saying there are mitigating circumstances for his conduct.......as you well know.

2. You don't know the reasons many people give to his greatness......It suits your argument to go with this one ..For me as well as I'm sure many others... it's the whole package..

3. What you think is principled may be different to what I and others think...Your version isn't the bottom line...

4. You are making a lot of assumptions about what motivated and drove Ali............You don't know the guy inside.....

Your argument is mainly supposition and conjecture to suit your negative opinion about the guy.......

TRUSSMAN66

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