EU exit - So folks what are you all thinking?

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to know what you all think and what way you will be voting.

Will it have an affect on rugby (from point of view of bringing in non-British players, coaches for example).
Will sterling devalue so that it will be impossible for English clubs to compete with French Euro clubs
What about Scotland? Will this push them out of the UK?
How about Ulster fans - are you looking forward to the reinstallation of the Border?

Let's not forget about the massive spike in racist incidents being reported.
It's not like running a campaign based on the fear and scapegoating foreigners then actually winning was going to cause any issues was it.

A Campaign based on Fear?

Which side exclusively involved themselves in such a campaign?

And can we take a moment to applaud all the areas that voted out, even tho they receive £100s of millions in European funding each year and now want the government to foot the bill. I'm looking at you Cornwall and Wales

SecretFly wrote:A Campaign based on Fear?

Which side exclusively involved themselves in such a campaign?

They both did. And they were both a bunch of lying Poopie .

But I was taking issue with the fear of foreigners angle one side took

Seriously? Sh#tehawks is such a good insult. Why change it to poopie

they just want the bragging rights in their old age of having been Tory leader / PM.

It's worse than that - it's all just a big House competition at Eton, somewhere in Whitehall there's a innocuous door, it leads to a beatiful sweeping staircase, at the top of this there is a long panelled corridor (Nazi-gold works of art on the wall) which leads to a beautiful room which is tastefully appointed (the biscuits are MUCH better than the RFU ones), it's populated by very powerful individuals that are definetly not in the public eye.

If BoJo (an appellation I despise as much as the actual individual) gets into No 10 it'll be

"50 points to Griffendore"

That's all it is.

TrailApe wrote:

they just want the bragging rights in their old age of having been Tory leader / PM.

It's worse than that - it's all just a big House competition at Eton, somewhere in Whitehall there's a innocuous door, it leads to a beatiful sweeping staircase, at the top of this there is a long panelled corridor (Nazi-gold works of art on the wall) which leads to a beautiful room which is tastefully appointed (the biscuits are MUCH better than the RFU ones), it's populated by very powerful individuals that are definetly not in the public eye.

If BoJo (an appellation I despise as much as the actual individual) gets into No 10 it'll be

"50 points to Griffendore"

That's all it is.

Good work Ape.

carpet baboon wrote:Let's not forget about the massive spike in racist incidents being reported.
It's not like running a campaign based on the fear and scapegoating foreigners then actually winning was going to cause any issues was it.

Has there been? I can't find any reports on that. Any link?

Have no links to official figures, but my best friend who is a DI in the police says incidents reported on Friday were large enough for them to be concerned.

Also someone on Facebook (now I don't take anything on there as a fact), but they would seem to have collected over 150 incidents of "we won go home" type incidents.

Will be intresting to see official figures in the next few weeks

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales?CMP=fb_gu

About the increase in racist incidents

The media reaction is comical. Like a spoilt brat getting his toys taken away. They're spouting all kinds of nonsense now and all of a sudden, democracy doesn't count anymore.

profitius wrote:The media reaction is comical. Like a spoilt brat getting his toys taken away. They're spouting all kinds of nonsense now and all of a sudden, democracy doesn't count anymore.

Don't be surprised to see more referendums on this until the elite get the right answer from the people, like what happened with the Lisbon treaty. I'm already seeing petitions with hundreds of thousands of signatures trying to get another referendum.

There is no point in another referendum. It's in no way legally binding to start with and look at Boris and gove. not one of them has the balls to invoke article 50.
It will stay just the way it is

carpet baboon wrote:There is no point in another referendum. It's in no way legally binding to start with and look at Boris and gove. not one of them has the balls to invoke article 50.
It will stay just the way it is

I thought that after we voted NO to the lisbon treaty. They don't give a damn what the people vote for, this "Brexit" is far from over.

Until someone invoked article 50 nothing at all will change.
And no one seems to want to formally do that.

carpet baboon wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales?CMP=fb_gu

About the increase in racist incidents

The political landscape has changed dramatically.

The working class left no longer exists in England, hence the destruction of the Labour party.

The Tories are now the center left in English politics and the opposition parties, UKIP excepted, do not represent the right wing views in middle England.

Unfortunately the media and mainstream politicians want to brush it under the carpet but this is the rise of English nationalism and unless they start to address this and show leadership much more social unrest and racially motivated violence is on it's way.

The leave campaign did not win because of the discontent of small business, farmers, fishermen etc. with the EU they won because of the working class English/Welsh vote and what they voted far was not some renegotiation of terms with Europe - what they voted for was an end to immigration and reduction (or even removal) of foreigners in the UK.

Anyone who thinks this result is a victory for either the UK, or democracy will be in for a shock over the next few years. This was an anti-establishment, anti-migrant vote.

Looking at how the Establishment is dealing with the aftermath - both in the UK and in Europe - is it any wonder that a sense of anti-establishment is growing?  Who asserts that the 'establishment' aren't the main concern?  Who claims that the establishment present the Moral highground?

It seems that the establishment, at least in the England bit, won't even listen to their own electorate and practically Insist that any Party Leader/Prime Minister - Labour or Conservative (for that's all they'll allow in) - must have a clipped accent of Etonion gravitas.  

Nationalists?  Westminister is full of them.... that's why Corbyn is too much of a commoner to suit their "Hear! Hear!" and "My Right Honourable" habits.  He doesn't look or sound properly English enough for the Party animals so they'll hang him against the wishes of the very people they'll want voting for them in the next election.

The establishment have gone wild, right across Europe, and the people get blamed for finally having a say on what they think of it all?  

SecretFly wrote:Looking at how the Establishment is dealing with the aftermath - both in the UK and in Europe - is it any wonder that a sense of anti-establishment is growing?  Who asserts that the 'establishment' aren't the main concern?  Who claims that the establishment present the Moral highground?

It seems that the establishment, at least in the England bit, won't even listen to their own electorate and practically Insist that any Party Leader/Prime Minister - Labour or Conservative (for that's all they'll allow in) - must have a clipped accent of Etonion gravitas.  

Nationalists?  Westminister is full of them.... that's why Corbyn is too much of a commoner to suit their "Hear! Hear!" and "My Right Honourable" habits.  He doesn't look or sound properly English enough for the Party animals so they'll hang him against the wishes of the very people they'll want voting for them in the next election.

The establishment have gone wild, right across Europe, and the people get blamed for finally having a say on what they think of it all?  

This vote hasn't hurt the establishment but given power to some of the most establishment types possible.
Who will put ego and power before everything else. The world is burning but it's ok as they got the job they wanted.
And it's the people who voted for some sort of change will get shafted first. And then the establishment will find someone else to blame other than themselves

SecretFly wrote:
The establishment have gone wild, right across Europe, and the people get blamed for finally having a say on what they think of it all?  

And what is it you think the people have said?

The biggest irony for me is that two countries within the United kingdom voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, and not only are they being told they have to go along with the wishes of the largest Country, they are being denied their own independence referendums, as Westminister controls the power to grant this.

Yet the sovereign sapping overlords of the EU have to sit patiently for the UK to invoke article 50.

But yet people praise this as a victory for democracy and sovereignty.

Many of the 17.5 million who voted leave won't be appeased when the UK leave the EU, they will be empowered and when it becomes apparent that any change in the UKs political relationship with the EU won't remove foreigners from Britain, I suspect they will take to the streets to do it themselves.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The establishment have gone wild, right across Europe, and the people get blamed for finally having a say on what they think of it all?  

And what is it you think the people have said?

The people have said the EU doesn't work.  That's what the people have said.  You can come up with as many distinct and variable practical reasons/excuses used over the campaign (and they've all been covered - from immigration to sovereignty to the claim that more money goes to Europe than ever comes back, to the NHS etc). But the one wholesome fact is that the Exiters have said the EU (as it stands) isn't the model of mutual cooperation they want.

Europe is Europe - the EU doesn't own the copyright to the title or the reality.  The EU is a governmental project currently operating within Europe.  And increasingly, the peoples of Europe are saying it isn't a project they want to continue as is.

Plus - this notion that being Inside is the best way of guaranteeing 'Reform' of the EU is, in my view, codswallop - it's just fantasy.  When you're in (at official/ministerial/civil service levels), you're part of the cosy sect that don't want to accept less power - back to the turkeys voting for Christmas analogy; they don't.

Any rebel that goes to the EU to fight against the speed to Empire, most of them disappear.  Most of them are lost and consumed by all the nice expenses and cheek kisses they get from all the beautiful MEPs strolling around the corridors of power.  We've had a few firebrands that promised they'd go to the EU to fight against the 'system'.................................................................................................................................................................................... the search party is still out looking for them to see where they got to

The only way to stir the EU pot is to throw some shock waves its way.  The UK has thrown one.  I hope and trust they won't be the last.

SecretFly wrote:But the one wholesome fact is that the Exiters have said the EU (as it stands) isn't the model of mutual cooperation they want.

That might be a wholesome fact but that isn't' what people voted for.

You might want to dismiss it but what people voted for, outside the business/political classes, is an end to immigration, specifically from Muslims, more money for the NHS specifically and public services generally and more jobs, specifically unskilled work with higher salaries.

This vote won't secure any of it.

Do you really think an unemployed builder in Stockport or pensioner in Hull care about EU reform or a redrafting of Britain's trade conditions with the Europe?

It IS the fact.  They voted against an EU they don't want.  That's the only fact.... the rest is speculation about the details of the specific reasons.  

Nobody can insist on any specific reasons but each and every individual voter themselves.  And I'd guarantee that if each and every Leave voter was asked why, the vast majority would have some broad overview that would simply state they weren't happy with the way the EU was going.

So don't change what I'm saying, rodders.  
The Leavers wanted to Leave.  
The EU doesn't interest them - as it stands.  

I didn't ever say that I feel they want reform - the reform angle is for people in the Remain camp;  that was their baby.  "Let's stay in to reform from the inside if necessary."

So when I talk about the fantasy of reform from within, I'm talking very specifically to Remain voters, not Leave ones.

Hells bells it's the return of stagflation, thanks a bunch brexiteers.

https://next.ft.com/content/22ead913-2e91-3bda-be07-71e3f1283897

They voted against an EU they don't want. That's the only fact

I dunno Fly, that's whats on the scoreboard, you can't argue with that but I still feel a loads of folks voted just to have a go at The Man.

This part of the world has no real problems with immigration, unemployment/poverty yes and the whole region is a net benefiter from the EU, yet only Newcastle voted to stay.

I think there is something more behind this vote and if our career politicians think they know better than the people who vote them in and therefore can disregard what they say - then I can see a clash of wills coming up. It's going to be carnage.

Or - the people who got off their arse for the first time and voted this time go back to their indifference and we get a Parliament voted in by a small minority of the population, which could be even more worrying as the political class go in one direction and the self imposed unfranchised go off in another.

Scary times ahead.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

profitius wrote:The media reaction is comical. Like a spoilt brat getting his toys taken away. They're spouting all kinds of nonsense now and all of a sudden, democracy doesn't count anymore.

Don't be surprised to see more referendums on this until the elite get the right answer from the people, like what happened with the Lisbon treaty. I'm already seeing petitions with hundreds of thousands of signatures trying to get another referendum.

Is that hundreds of thousands of the elite?

And anybody who thinks that we'd get the same result if we held the referendum again tomorrow needs their head examined.

TrailApe wrote:

They voted against an EU they don't want.  That's the only fact

I dunno Fly, that's whats on the scoreboard, you can't argue with that but I still feel a loads of folks voted just to have a go at The Man.

This part of the world has no real problems with immigration, unemployment/poverty yes and the whole region is a net benefiter from the EU, yet only Newcastle voted to stay.

I think there is something more behind this vote and if our career politicians think they know better than the people who vote them in and therefore can disregard what they say - then I can see a clash of wills coming up. It's going to be carnage.

Or - the people who got off their arse for the first time and voted this time go back to their indifference and we get a Parliament voted in by a small minority of the population, which could be even more worrying as the political class go in one direction and the self imposed unfranchised go off in another.

Scary times ahead.

Yup

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

profitius wrote:The media reaction is comical. Like a spoilt brat getting his toys taken away. They're spouting all kinds of nonsense now and all of a sudden, democracy doesn't count anymore.

Don't be surprised to see more referendums on this until the elite get the right answer from the people, like what happened with the Lisbon treaty. I'm already seeing petitions with hundreds of thousands of signatures trying to get another referendum.

Yup they only care about democracy once it suits them.


The only thing that might stop a second referendum is the size of Britain. Ireland is a small country they could bully but if it happened in Britain there would be a hell of storm kicked up.

Eh? I think the elite (both British & Europe) got the answer they wanted the first time. France in particular are delighted to see the back of the UK. The EU (France & Germany) are in the driving seat now.

Its hard to see how the UK can even negotiate a trade deal with the EU considering the big issue seems to have been freedom of movement/immigration.

As for democracy - what is democratic about taking Scotland and NI out of a Union they want to remain in?

Sin é wrote:Eh? I think the elite (both British & Europe) got the answer they wanted the first time. France in particular are delighted to see the back of the UK. The EU (France & Germany) are in the driving seat now.

Its hard to see how the UK can even negotiate a trade deal with the EU considering the big issue seems to have been freedom of movement/immigration.

Britain has a circle it can't square - it is vital for business and the economy to have access to the single market, even the leading Brixiteers and Euro sceptics have said this is their wish but if you listen to the comments of a lot of working class voters, what they have voted on is an end to immigration, both EU and non EU, not a renegotiation.

England is badly divided - neither of the main parties has either a leader or a mandate to govern, let alone negotiate with the other EU countries. Therefore I expect them to stall on article 50 and call another general election for early next year.

In the meantime I suspect, if this political vacuum continues, we will witness the revival of the the English national front and escalating social unrest, whilst the economy slips into recession.

It really is s*ite or bust for the UK now, the only outcome is and end to free movement of people and access to the single market - but this is the one deal the EU cannot afford to give if it wishes to remain intact. It will be interesting to see who backs down but I cannot see the UK having the stronger hand or resolve here.

The only positive I'd say is that in NI we are used to seeing these political Mexican standoffs and more often than not some compromise is found to safe face even if it seems impossible that one can be found.

These are interesting times indeed.

The weird use of the word 'Nationalism' over the last number of months is ...................... well................... weird.

Interesting but worrying times ahead I think...

I voted to remain and have been watching the carnage in horror since Friday morning. I am hoping against hope that out of the wreckage a pragmatic way forward will be be found. I think you are correct Rodders when you say that compromises will be made and this is because of the importance of each side to the other. Europe will prosper more with a strong UK alongside it and Europe will still want the ability to influence UK policy - I'm pretty sure that they'll end up with that influence when the dust settles. There will be the Anglophobes (they are already apparent) who see this as an opportunity for a dig or two or a chance for a political soundbite that plays well at home but I think pragmatism/capitalism will win through in the end.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Europe as a whole - will the actions of the UK divert its course? In the UK can the Scots Parliament stop us leaving? (I must admit to hoping they can!) Will we ever have a credible opposition party in the UK? If there is a general election soon will there be a party running on pro Europe/anti-Brexit ticket? What happens if they win - does article 50 never get triggered?

???

At least the markets appear to be bouncing back for now.

SecretFly wrote:The weird use of the word 'Nationalism' over the last number of months is ...................... well................... weird.

There is another 'ism' that could be used in place, perhaps more applicable, but people are not ready to acknowledge it.

Just saw on Sky News a Scottish MEP give a very impassioned speech in European Parliament on Scotland's wish to remain in the EU. Got a great response. An NI MEP (Sinn Fein) also made a similar effort, but didn't get as good a response as the Scottish MEP.

Some interesting background in Irish Times today about UK relationship with the EU by Peter Sutherland.

Peter Sutherland wrote:
A couple of days ago, European Commission president Jean- Claude Juncker commented that the marriage of the United Kingdom with the European Union had never been a happy one and the divorce would not be amicable.

As to the first of these points, from the outset 60 years ago, in the lead-up to the European Coal and Steel Community of 1951 the continental powers (supported by the United States secretary of state) deliberately kept Britain in the dark because they knew it would oppose the whole idea.

Later, in the lead-up to the conclusion of the Treaty of Rome at the discussions held in Messina on the potential advance, Britain sent a relatively low-level civil servant who, before the end, stood up from the table and left early.

Since this inauspicious beginning the essential antagonism of much of the political establishment and print media in Britain and the European project has remained constant and virulent. Scarcely ever has there been a concerted good word been uttered about European integration and there has been constant opposition to virtually all proposed advances (except to the internal market and enlargement).

Furthermore the United Kingdom has always basically opposed budget increases and the common policies of the European Union such as those in agriculture and to provide regional or social transfers from the richer states to the poorer. The amazing thing is that notwithstanding this negative backdrop the British people (who are basically moderate and tolerant) still returned, in the EU referendum, a vote of 48 per cent in favour of remaining in the union.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/peter-sutherland-little-reason-to-delay-talks-on-britain-s-eu-exit-1.2701875

*Peter Sutherland is a former EU Commissioner, has headed up the World Trade Organisation and is a former chairman of Goldman Sachs. Think he is also an independent director of World Rugby.

The British Gov. should be on the blower to him pretty sharp to head up their trade negotiations.

What 'ism' would that be, rodders? And would Gibraltar be one of them?

stub wrote:In the UK can the Scots Parliament stop us leaving? (I must admit to hoping they can!) Will we ever have a credible opposition party in the UK? If there is a general election soon will there be a party running on pro Europe/anti-Brexit ticket? What happens if they win - does article 50 never get triggered?

No to the first one and not any time soon to the second.

The final one is my prediction - Boris (who is pro Europe despite what he says), May or Hunt will win an election with an EU-lite mandate and come away with a similar deal as Cameron after taking the article 50 bluff off the table.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The weird use of the word 'Nationalism' over the last number of months is ...................... well................... weird.

There is another 'ism' that could be used in place, perhaps more applicable, but people are not ready to acknowledge it.  

That's certainly lurking under (and sometimes not so far under) the surface in all countries unfortunately. It's ugly when you see it but reminds us all that we have to work hard to resist these isms.

Sin é wrote:Just saw on Sky News a Scottish MEP give a very impassioned speech in European Parliament on Scotland's wish to remain in the EU. Got a great response. An NI MEP (Sinn Fein) also made a similar effort, but didn't get as good a response as the Scottish MEP.

Two nice bedfellows. 'Independence' seekers both that both passionately speak about wanting the EU to hold its hand and take care of them.

A crazy world of mixed up principles.

SecretFly wrote:What 'ism' would that be, rodders?  And would Gibraltar be one of them?

Ask the Polish, Spanish, Italians etc. in middle England who are now packing their bags to go somewhere they are welcome.

rodders wrote:

stub wrote:In the UK can the Scots Parliament stop us leaving? (I must admit to hoping they can!) Will we ever have a credible opposition party in the UK? If there is a general election soon will there be a party running on pro Europe/anti-Brexit ticket? What happens if they win - does article 50 never get triggered?

No to the first one and not any time soon to the second.

The final one is my prediction - Boris (who is pro Europe despite what he says), May or Hunt will win an election with an EU-lite mandate and come away with a similar deal as Cameron after taking the article 50 bluff off the table.

I think that's the best we can realistically hope for in the short term.

But please, PLEASE, not Hunt!!

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:What 'ism' would that be, rodders?  And would Gibraltar be one of them?

Ask the Polish, Spanish, Italians etc. in middle England who are now packing their bags to go somewhere they are welcome.

No I'm asking you. You're here, they're not. Is Gibraltar an example of this 'ism'?

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:What 'ism' would that be, rodders?  And would Gibraltar be one of them?

Ask the Polish, Spanish, Italians etc. in middle England who are now packing their bags to go somewhere they are welcome.

No I'm asking you.  You're here, they're not.  Is Gibraltar an example of this 'ism'?

Whats the beef with the EU fly, is it those bloody water charges or do you want the poles out too?

Answer the question rodders. I'm patient.

Sinn Fein's on your side after all. I'm in the minority on this one.

As for the EU, what's my beef with it? Ask the UK Referendum majority.

Rods, he is one of the baby boomers!

SecretFly wrote:As for the EU, what's my beef with it?  Ask the UK Referendum majority.  

I would but they either are too busy heckling Polish people or else they've cleared of to live in the south of France.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:As for the EU, what's my beef with it?  Ask the UK Referendum majority.  

I would but they either are too busy heckling Polish people or else they've cleared of to live in the south of France.

Oh they're off to vote for Marine Le Pen? The ripple effect?

Great plan.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just saw on Sky News a Scottish MEP give a very impassioned speech in European Parliament on Scotland's wish to remain in the EU. Got a great response. An NI MEP (Sinn Fein) also made a similar effort, but didn't get as good a response as the Scottish MEP.

Two nice bedfellows.  'Independence' seekers both that both passionately speak about wanting the EU to hold its hand and take care of them.  

A crazy world of mixed up principles.

Mo more so than Corbyn who was forced into supporting the EU he wants to leave and has to try and act like he didn't support Scottish indepenace and sympathise with Irish Republicanism....yet is somehow coming out of all this cast as the honest principled one (with a rubbish jacket)

Its not a million miles from Aaron "I know all about Scotland" Shingler

Gooseberry wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just saw on Sky News a Scottish MEP give a very impassioned speech in European Parliament on Scotland's wish to remain in the EU. Got a great response. An NI MEP (Sinn Fein) also made a similar effort, but didn't get as good a response as the Scottish MEP.

Two nice bedfellows.  'Independence' seekers both that both passionately speak about wanting the EU to hold its hand and take care of them.  

A crazy world of mixed up principles.

Mo more so than Corbyn who was forced into supporting the EU he wants to leave and has to try and act like he didn't support Scottish indepenace and sympathise with Irish Republicanism....yet is somehow coming out of all this cast as the honest principled one (with a rubbish jacket)

Its not a million miles from Aaron "I know all about Scotland" Shingler

Totally agree Goose. It's a bizarre world right now. But sure all we can do is sit in wonder - take it all in and remember it as best we can. The grandkids will want to hear all about it.

Sin é wrote:Just saw on Sky News a Scottish MEP give a very impassioned speech in European Parliament on Scotland's wish to remain in the EU. Got a great response. An NI MEP (Sinn Fein) also made a similar effort, but didn't get as good a response as the Scottish MEP.

Some interesting background in Irish Times today about UK relationship with the EU by Peter Sutherland.

Peter Sutherland wrote:
A couple of days ago, European Commission president Jean- Claude Juncker commented that the marriage of the United Kingdom with the European Union had never been a happy one and the divorce would not be amicable.

As to the first of these points, from the outset 60 years ago, in the lead-up to the European Coal and Steel Community of 1951 the continental powers (supported by the United States secretary of state) deliberately kept Britain in the dark because they knew it would oppose the whole idea.

Later, in the lead-up to the conclusion of the Treaty of Rome at the discussions held in Messina on the potential advance, Britain sent a relatively low-level civil servant who, before the end, stood up from the table and left early.

Since this inauspicious beginning the essential antagonism of much of the political establishment and print media in Britain and the European project has remained constant and virulent. Scarcely ever has there been a concerted good word been uttered about European integration and there has been constant opposition to virtually all proposed advances (except to the internal market and enlargement).

Furthermore the United Kingdom has always basically opposed budget increases and the common policies of the European Union such as those in agriculture and to provide regional or social transfers from the richer states to the poorer. The amazing thing is that notwithstanding this negative backdrop the British people (who are basically moderate and tolerant) still returned, in the EU referendum, a vote of 48 per cent in favour of remaining in the union.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/peter-sutherland-little-reason-to-delay-talks-on-britain-s-eu-exit-1.2701875

*Peter Sutherland is a former EU Commissioner, has headed up the World Trade Organisation and is a former chairman of Goldman Sachs. Think he is also an independent director of World Rugby.

The British Gov. should be on the blower to him pretty sharp to head up their trade negotiations.

Peter Sutherland likes telling people what to do. He works for the globalists and is a globalist.

profitius

So what? He is very influenctial. His opinion is not to be ignored.