Schmitt and cotter interviewing for lions job

Read that John spencer has confirmed that both cotter and Schmitt will be interviewed for the lions job today.this amazes me,not that I don't think they could do the job but that Schmitt is being considered whilst not committing,publicly at least for the Ireland post. Gatland remains favourite but not a one horse race I would say.just not sure what to make of this, what do other Ireland fans think this says about joes future prospects of taking Ireland to Japan for the next World Cup now?

Can't link with this iPad but here's the text

With the 2017 Lions series now under one year away, the search for the coach who will lead the tour has been narrowed down to three candidates.

After months of speculation, this evening tour manager, John Spencer, confirmed that Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Vern Cotter will all be interviewed for the position of head coach.

Spencer revealed the news in The Rugby Paper, and confirmed that Eddie Jones would have been in the running for the job, had he not stated his desire to take charge of England’s tour of Argentina.

Although Spencer did not say when the interviews would take place, he did state that an appointment would be made in September.

Gatland remains the favourite to reprise the role, but Schmidt should not be discounted as an alternative.

Indeed, not only has the Irish coach remained coy on his future, but he previously worked with Cotter at Clermont, raising the prospect of the duo once again linking up as the potential coaching team.

I really hope it's Cotter or Schmidt.

Griff wrote:I really hope it's Cotter or Schmidt.

A combo might be a good idea. Less space for favoritism too (although I guess we could end up with the Scottish contribution doubled..)

So glad Jones has ruled himself out. Much better to concentrate on the Argentina tour and continue to strengthen the England squad. I really hope they don't try and grab Gustard or Borthwick.

I can see it being Gatland as head coach with Schmidt and Cotter in the junior roles. Might as well throw three Kiwis at the problem and try and win some of the midweek games if they can.

I'm not sure why Cotter would be linked to the head role just yet, I'm not sure he's good enough. I'd certainly consider him for another coaching role with the Lions though, and I would also consider all three coaches going like Cyril says.

Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.
I am not sure that Schmidt and Cotter would be happy being subordinate to Gatland!

If Cotter and Schmidt have worked together before then that's a possibility. But I feel that there would be too much of a personality clash in that other scenario.

Would also potentially devalue the upcoming 6N if 2 or 3 senior coaches are out planning for the Lions.

At this time I would be very happy with a Schmidt, Cotter team perhaps Graham Henry as a consultant coach.

Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

yappysnap wrote:Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

On the other hand he couldn't win a 6N or get out of the group stages at the world cup... But going back to your logic then that means we should overlook the likes of England players in stellar form like Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola, etc... And select Parling, Tom Youngs, Wood, Morgan, Barritt, Ashton, Goode? Good team that...

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.  
I am not sure that Schmidt and Cotter would be happy being subordinate to Gatland!

If Cotter and Schmidt have worked together before then that's a possibility.  But I feel that there would be too much of a personality clash in that other scenario.  

Would also potentially devalue the upcoming 6N if 2 or 3 senior coaches are out planning for the Lions.  

At this time I would be very happy with a Schmidt, Cotter team perhaps Graham Henry as a consultant coach.  

Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three. When looking beyond your hatred of the man because he coaches Wales then you make an interesting point. He, Schmidt and Cotter are rivals in the 6N and in the near future might be rivals for the ABs job. Having one or two as subordinate to the other might not be a good idea. An ideal scenario would be all three to go and have somebody appointed above them in a McGeechan type role a-la 2009 - only this time we don't have crap coaches like Howley involved. Schmidt is a massive step up there.

yappysnap wrote:Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

Did he score the winning try

I'm sorry Mikey_dragon - My hatred of Gatland!!!!! Or anyone that coached Wales!!!!

You automatically assume that I'm anti welsh from that post - come on mate - take the chip off the shoulder.

mikey_dragon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

On the other hand he couldn't win a 6N or get out of the group stages at the world cup... But going back to your logic then that means we should overlook the likes of England players in stellar form like Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola, etc... And select Parling, Tom Youngs, Wood, Morgan, Barritt, Ashton, Goode? Good team that...

As you said good enough to beat the AB's one time.. At least it would let Jones have another summer with the first choice team.

No way will Cotter take a subordinate role to Gatland.

Cotter clearly is his own man and is clear about what he wants - he will also play the tactics to suit the players - not pick the players to suit his tactics

I very much doubt he will favour Scots players - he has shown a streak of ruthlessness in dropping players and in selecting on form

I think cotter / schmitt could well be a really good call

mikey_dragon wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.  
I am not sure that Schmidt and Cotter would be happy being subordinate to Gatland!

If Cotter and Schmidt have worked together before then that's a possibility.  But I feel that there would be too much of a personality clash in that other scenario.  

Would also potentially devalue the upcoming 6N if 2 or 3 senior coaches are out planning for the Lions.  

At this time I would be very happy with a Schmidt, Cotter team perhaps Graham Henry as a consultant coach.  

Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three. When looking beyond your hatred of the man because he coaches Wales then you make an interesting point. He, Schmidt and Cotter are rivals in the 6N and in the near future might be rivals for the ABs job. Having one or two as subordinate to the other might not be a good idea. An ideal scenario would be all three to go and have somebody appointed above them in a McGeechan type role a-la 2009 - only this time we don't have crap coaches like Howley involved. Schmidt is a massive step up there.

How is he the better coach? He is good yes - but also very limited tactically. Cotter has a great deal of success under his belt and is highly respected. Cotter also is not ever going to get the ABs job.
Usual hysterical accusations of bias against Wales from you. It would be laughable if not so pathetic. a real man understand critisim andcan take it as meant and can at least attempt to be constructive

I would rather it wasn't Cotter - because I want him to concentrate on Sotland. But I think he would be a very good choice indeed. I don't want Gatland because his tactics are naive, his selection is all based around favourites and he is overrated as a coach.

These Lions discussions are already bringing everyone together as one happy family

mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three

Really?

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.

In 2005. Woodward had Andy Robinson and Eddie O'Sullivan as assistants, when they were both Six Nations coaches.

England had no summer tour in 2005, while Ireland went to Japan under Niall O'Donovan.

Bugger the entire Lions thing. 2005 was an utter disgrace and anyone will do a better job.

Me, I am off to the PI's to support Wales and watch the Lions in the pub Sorted.

TJ wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.  
I am not sure that Schmidt and Cotter would be happy being subordinate to Gatland!

If Cotter and Schmidt have worked together before then that's a possibility.  But I feel that there would be too much of a personality clash in that other scenario.  

Would also potentially devalue the upcoming 6N if 2 or 3 senior coaches are out planning for the Lions.  

At this time I would be very happy with a Schmidt, Cotter team perhaps Graham Henry as a consultant coach.  

Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three. When looking beyond your hatred of the man because he coaches Wales then you make an interesting point. He, Schmidt and Cotter are rivals in the 6N and in the near future might be rivals for the ABs job. Having one or two as subordinate to the other might not be a good idea. An ideal scenario would be all three to go and have somebody appointed above them in a McGeechan type role a-la 2009 - only this time we don't have crap coaches like Howley involved. Schmidt is a massive step up there.

How is he the better coach?  He is good yes - but also very limited tactically.  Cotter has a great deal of success under his belt and is highly respected.  Cotter also is not ever going to get the ABs job.
Usual hysterical accusations of bias against Wales from you.  It would be laughable if not so pathetic.  a real man understand critisim andcan take it as meant and can at least attempt to be constructive

I would rather it wasn't Cotter - because I want him to concentrate on Sotland.  But I think he would be a very good choice indeed.  I don't want Gatland because his tactics are naive, his selection is all based around favourites and he is overrated as a coach.  

TJ has gone all Gloria Gaynor on us! "A real man needs to respect me for who I am", "A real man knows how to treat me goooood"!

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.

In 2005. Woodward had Andy Robinson and Eddie O'Sullivan as assistants, when they were both Six Nations coaches.

England had no summer tour in 2005, while Ireland went to Japan under Niall O'Donovan.

From what I recall hearing, Eddie O'Sullivan took charge of the midweek teams who hardly met the Test team on the tour as Woodward had such a large touring team.

I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the 3 people interviewing to coach the Lions against New Zealand are all from New Zealand...

For what it's worth I think Schmidt and Cotter would make a good coaching combo generally - whether they are right for the Lions I'm not so sure.

Then again, I'm not convinced Gatland is the right man either so really there are no real standout options!

Sin é wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.

In 2005. Woodward had Andy Robinson and Eddie O'Sullivan as assistants, when they were both Six Nations coaches.

England had no summer tour in 2005, while Ireland went to Japan under Niall O'Donovan.

From what I recall hearing, Eddie O'Sullivan took charge of the midweek teams who hardly met the Test team on the tour as Woodward had such a large touring team.

There were essentially two camps under Woodward, the midweek players were pretty much told they wouldn't make the Test team which was a great tactic from the great man manager and motivator

Was there not talk of another Quad-style tournament again involving Scotland like there was during the last Lions tour?

If so the last thing we need at a time when we're finally making progress is to lose our coach as well as our top players to go and get skelves on their backsides in New Zealand.

If Cotter is serious about continuing to help Scotland improve, that should be his priority.

Cyril wrote:So glad Jones has ruled himself out. Much better to concentrate on the Argentina tour and continue to strengthen the England squad. I really hope they don't try and grab Gustard or Borthwick.

I can see it being Gatland as head coach with Schmidt and Cotter in the junior roles. Might as well throw three Kiwis at the problem and try and win some of the midweek games if they can.

Part of me wishes that would rub off on the players? I get that it's easy to say while sat at the keyboard and with no prospect of ever being asked to represent them - I'm sure it's a huge honour and a rare opportunity and all that... but the Lions tours do seem a tour to far to me. I'd probably be quite glad if our players did say 'thanks but no thanks'.

Woodward tried a different way of doing things - it didn't work! Well, it was a disaster.
No successive Lions Head Coaches will likely do the same....so valuable lessons learned. Moving on....

Its always a difficult situation for a home nations head coach to be in - as when picking his squad and not selecting 'his own' players he is effectively telling them that they aren't good enough. Causes massive internal disruption.....and problems when they return to their day jobs when they have to build up those that weren't selected as Lions!

That being the case, the ideal situation as Mikey_Dragon suggested after his little 'vent' that there is a DoR type position that has overall control, then allowing other international head coaches to partner up. So, someone not currently involved in the 6N or has a stake.

It does seem that the job of Lions Head Coach has become an almost a season long fulltime post and for any coach it is a massive commitment. I think we were lucky last time that the WRU let Gatland take a sabbatical to do the job.
It also seems to have got a lot more political with fans moaning about bias from the coach towards his own players - remember the outcry when BOD was dropped for Jonathan Davies - despite the Lions going on in a series which was 1 all at the time to record their biggest ever victory over Australia. It seems a thankless task.
Whatever some fans say, the Lions will go ahead as it is the big money earner that helps keep rugby going strong in the Southern Hemisphere. For the players it is also a chance for them to become stars not just of their own country but of the whole of GB & Ireland. The likes of BOD and POC who were stellar players didn't need the Lions, although they did them proud, but would we really know the likes of John Bentley and Paul Wallace so well without the Lions?

Not the best source but apparently Schmidt has ruled himself out. Good news for Ireland if he decides to stay

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/exclusive-joe-schmidt-will-not-be-the-british-irish-lions-coach/88165

England are going to Argentina next summer. What are Wales, Ireland & Scotland up to?

mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three.

Is he better than Schmidt?

Gatland's tactics remind me of General Melchett's secret plan. Blackadder asks if this involves climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy.

Gatland's tactics against the All Blacks will be as always to give the ball to Roberts who will run very slowly towards the enemy...

Sin é wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.

In 2005. Woodward had Andy Robinson and Eddie O'Sullivan as assistants, when they were both Six Nations coaches.

England had no summer tour in 2005, while Ireland went to Japan under Niall O'Donovan.

From what I recall hearing, Eddie O'Sullivan took charge of the midweek teams who hardly met the Test team on the tour as Woodward had such a large touring team.

I try not to think too much about the tour because it's still painful now.

Alongside O'Sullivan and Robinson, we also had McGeechan (a former Scotland & Lions coach) and Jenkins (future Wales coach) in the set-up.

propdavid_london wrote:I'm sorry Mikey_dragon - My hatred of Gatland!!!!!  Or anyone that coached Wales!!!!

You automatically assume that I'm anti welsh from that post - come on mate - take the chip off the shoulder.

Come on I was just wumming you . I don't know why you'd want to push out the best coach of the three though, unless it's just a case of "Let's give someone else a go." If Gatland has nothing to do with this tour I wonder if this Lions coach will get the same resentment, even upon winning the fraking thing.

TJ wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Cyril, I am not sure that there was ever other Head International coaches being assistant coaches to others before.  
I am not sure that Schmidt and Cotter would be happy being subordinate to Gatland!

If Cotter and Schmidt have worked together before then that's a possibility.  But I feel that there would be too much of a personality clash in that other scenario.  

Would also potentially devalue the upcoming 6N if 2 or 3 senior coaches are out planning for the Lions.  

At this time I would be very happy with a Schmidt, Cotter team perhaps Graham Henry as a consultant coach.  

Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three. When looking beyond your hatred of the man because he coaches Wales then you make an interesting point. He, Schmidt and Cotter are rivals in the 6N and in the near future might be rivals for the ABs job. Having one or two as subordinate to the other might not be a good idea. An ideal scenario would be all three to go and have somebody appointed above them in a McGeechan type role a-la 2009 - only this time we don't have crap coaches like Howley involved. Schmidt is a massive step up there.

How is he the better coach?  He is good yes - but also very limited tactically.  Cotter has a great deal of success under his belt and is highly respected.  Cotter also is not ever going to get the ABs job.
Usual hysterical accusations of bias against Wales from you.  It would be laughable if not so pathetic.  a real man understand critisim andcan take it as meant and can at least attempt to be constructive

I would rather it wasn't Cotter - because I want him to concentrate on Sotland.  But I think he would be a very good choice indeed.  I don't want Gatland because his tactics are naive, his selection is all based around favourites and he is overrated as a coach.  

It's a stupid question you're asking, but we'll look at it from the most simple angle for your benefit.

Gatland's first season in the 6N he guides Wales to a grand slam. Cotter's first season in the 6N he guides Scotland to a wooden spoon. Also the former spent years with Wasps and won three major trophies. The latter spent years with Clermont, won a single major trophy and choked all the other seasons - not wholly bad with Clermont but he probably had one of the best teams to ever grace the Marcell Michelin. A coaching record speaks volumes, nobody looks back at coaching style.

Cotter is a good coach, I'm just getting at that I wouldn't throw him into the top job, especially at the expense of the far superior Gatland. My preference would be for him to take an assistant role. TBH with you I would have Gatland take an assistant role, but he'd likely only accept the top dog position on the Lions coaching staff - he's a top guy like that.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

On the other hand he couldn't win a 6N or get out of the group stages at the world cup... But going back to your logic then that means we should overlook the likes of England players in stellar form like Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola, etc... And select Parling, Tom Youngs, Wood, Morgan, Barritt, Ashton, Goode? Good team that...

As you said good enough to beat the AB's one time.. At least it would let Jones have another summer with the first choice team.

You would risk it with those odds then? I wouldn't. I would take the best form players in the 2016/17 season.

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three

Really?

Yeah for real fam. I'm not pulling your bloody leg...

Exiledinborders wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that you're trying to push out Gatland when he's the better coach of the three.

Is he better than Schmidt?

Gatland's tactics remind me of General Melchett's secret plan. Blackadder asks if this involves  climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy.

Gatland's tactics against the All Blacks will be as always to give the ball to Roberts who will run very slowly towards the enemy...

Yes fam, there are no ifs or buts about it. There's perhaps a whisker between Gatland and Schmidt, but both are superior to Cotter. See above about their rugby record's. Nobody looks back at Jake White's tactics now do they, he's remembered as a TRI-Nations and WORLD CUP winning coach .

Roberts is the best 12 in the NH currently, he'll likely start if his form should continue. Don't cry for Duncan midweek Taylor...

propdavid_london wrote:
That being the case, the ideal situation as Mikey_Dragon suggested after his little 'vent' that there is a DoR type position that has overall control, then allowing other international head coaches to partner up.  So, someone not currently involved in the 6N or has a stake.

Yes, but who could it be? Not Stuart Lancaster... The other 3 coaches would laugh at him. It has to be a guy who's a bit of a legend. I know you're thinking mikey_dragon, but I've already agreed to go to a wedding in Mexico that summer fam. I guess he would have to be from the home nations too, as we can't possibly have a Frenchman or another Kiwi.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Stu Lancaster?

He is after all the only home nations coach to have actually beaten the AB's.

On the other hand he couldn't win a 6N or get out of the group stages at the world cup... But going back to your logic then that means we should overlook the likes of England players in stellar form like Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola, etc... And select Parling, Tom Youngs, Wood, Morgan, Barritt, Ashton, Goode? Good team that...

As you said good enough to beat the AB's one time.. At least it would let Jones have another summer with the first choice team.

You would risk it with those odds then? I wouldn't. I would take the best form players in the 2016/17 season.

I'd rather the best England players didn't go.

Who is Schmitt?

Obviously NOT the Ireland coach (thankfully) but it would be a disaster for Ireland if Joe were in any way to be involved with this impending train wreck. What is it with this idiotic selection committee that stumbles on a winning formula with a coach last time and now want to scrap that and start again?

Learning from mistakes is one thing but they need to learn from success too. Eddie Jones is too selfish and shrewd to be in any way involved, but there will be English players in the team and they will need Gustard and Borthwick in the wings to remind them who turned them from losers to winners.

If Gatland isn't the head coach with Gustard and Borthwick as deputies then the selection panel will have shown they aren't fit for purpose. Who are the selectors accountable to - their bank manager? How is it that so few individuals have the power to screw up four nations' world cup chances?

Are the best coaches available really Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Vern Cotter? Where are all your British and Irish coaches standing up? What a disappointing scenario.

ebop wrote:Are the best coaches available really Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Vern Cotter? Where are all your British and Irish coaches standing up? What a disappointing scenario.

The English premiership clubs last season all had Home Unions head coaches except London Irish (Tom Coventry of NZ), and they got relegated.

Next season, if Bath do appoint Todd Blackadder then he'll be the only foreign coach.

Saracens - Mark McCall (Ireland)
Exeter - Rob Baxter
Wasps - Dai Young (Wales)
Leicester - Richard Cockerill
Saints - Jim Mallinder
Sale - Steve Diamond
Quins - Mark Mapletoft
Gloucester - David Humphreys (Ireland)
Bath - TBA
Worcester - Carl Hogg (Scotland)
Newcastle - Dean Richards
Bristol - Andy Robinson

ebop wrote:Are the best coaches available really Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Vern Cotter? Where are all your British and Irish coaches standing up? What a disappointing scenario.

Best coach working in Great Britain and Ireland by a country mile is not from Southern Hemisphere but from Ireland - Mark McCall.

Not for this tour, but I can see Rob Baxter being involved with the Lions in the future and maybe a potential successor to Eddie Jones at England.

What he's done at the Chiefs is brilliant.

But Rugby Fan, why aren't they putting their hands up for higher honours? Have any stated they have ambitions to be national coaches? I'm sure some of them are decent.

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:Are the best coaches available really Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Vern Cotter? Where are all your British and Irish coaches standing up? What a disappointing scenario.

Best coach working in Great Britain and Ireland by a country mile is not from Southern Hemisphere but from Ireland - Mark McCall.

... given the resources he has to work with, my money would be on Pat Lam.

ebop wrote:But Rugby Fan, why aren't they putting their hands up for higher honours? Have any stated they have ambitions to be national coaches? I'm sure some of them are decent.

Some of them have. Conor O'Shea left Quins to coach Italy, Steve Borthwick and Paul Gastard left Bristol and Sarries to coach England under Eddie.

Others will probably never coach internationally. Cockerill's face almost certainly wouldn't fit at a union. Dean Richards is too controversial given his history, which is a shame as he would probably be an excellent international coach.

For others, it's a matter of timing. I would not be at all surprised to see McCall, Baxter and Young coach internationally at some point, but they will be waiting for the right vacancy before taking the next step.

As an aside, O'Shea has said that he would never coach Ireland, but the timing of his move makes me wonder if he would be a contender to take over the England job when Eddie leaves. He's known to the RFU and if he can show progress for Italy, he could be a contender alongside Baxter or promotion from within.

When did Conor O'Shea say he would never coach Ireland? It doesn't sound like something he would say.

ebop wrote:But Rugby Fan, why aren't they putting their hands up for higher honours?

When Lancaster resigned, The RFU said his replacement ought to be someone with international experience. None of last season's Premiership coaches satisfied that condition. Funnily enough, there is one this year: former England & Scotland coach Andy Robinson, who runs Bristol.

The RFU hasn't raised a coach up from club rugby since Clive Woodward in 1997. Andy Robinson did have a good club record but he was appointed on the strength of his work with the national side, as was Brian Ashton after him. Martin Johnson had managed precisely nothing when he was given the job, while Lancaster had more experience working at the RFU than with a club.

Consequently, the route from club rugby to the top England job has fallen into disuse.

I wouldn't be surprised if more home nations coaches started to make a mark in world rugby. Quite a few people are popping up in specialist roles (defence/attack, forwards/backs, kicking, scrum, lineout, conditioning, skills etc). Some will be sought after just for that expertise (just as Mike Cron and Mick Byrne have helped the All Blacks) but some might shape up well enough to take on senior roles.

Incidentally, in sevens, Mike Friday (USA) and Ben Ryan (Fiji) are two of the top coaches, and several former England players are on the coaching teams of other nations.

Sin é wrote:When did Conor O'Shea say he would never coach Ireland? It doesn't sound like something he would say.

He said it in one of the interviews around taking the Italy job. The gist of it was that he cared too much about Ireland to want to take on a job that is inevitably divisive.

Personally I would like Baxter with someone non english as assistant. Maybe toonie? Baxter has shown great skill as a coach. Toonie for his mercurial genius

Gatland will allways be a limited safety first sort of coach playing limited tactics. I don't think he adds much to a good group of Welsh players. Baxter has added a lot to his team