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England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?
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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 9:53 am

Bangladesh have had their moments in this test. They are not the old test side that would just given in even before the first ball. But there is a very long way to go even now.
A special performance from Ben Stokes, and more significantly, an old style collapse of 6-28 in the first innings is what did them in this test.

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 9:55 am

Think this next wicket is the key. Haven't been many runs added after six down in this match ...even by England - their best was 99 in the first innings.
Sabbir has taken the attack back to England : I'd fancy it can't last - but we shall see...

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 9:57 am

msp83 wrote:Bangladesh have had their moments in this test. They are not the old test side that would just given in even before the first ball. But there is a very long way to go even now.
A special performance from Ben Stokes, and more significantly, an old style collapse of 6-28 in the first innings is what did them in this test.

Yes : one would generally say a team cannot lose 6/27 at any time and expect to win a Test Match. On the other hand : teams do not usually survive the loss of their top four for under fifty in both innings and go on to win...

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:00 am

I'd say its 95 % England even at this stage. All that they need is one wicket and then the gate should open quickly. The Bangladesh lower order is not good with the bat, can't expect them to contribute particularly in a pressure situation.
I said it before, but the way they have treated young Nassir Hossain who averages 37 in test cricket, is just obnoxious! And can't figure out why is it that they don't give Mosaddek Hossain, a man who averages 58 in Bangladesh FC cricket isn't given a proper look in as far as tests are concerned. There are not many players who averages even in the high 40s as far as their FC cricket is concerned. Both Nassir and Mosaddek are handy spin options as well. Could so easily have come in for one of the seamers.
Interestingly, they both aren't even in the squad. Instead, they've picked Shuvagata Hom, an absolute rubbish of a test player, substandard with the bat, atrocious with the ball!!

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:02 am

Alfie, A top order collapse is the norm rather than the exception with England in recent times. A collective contribution from the top order is really the exception...... Root or Cook might play their part regularly, but there is nothing collective from the top order, think they believe top order collapse Is a fundamental ground work for success these days!

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:04 am

In fact it has to be believed that there is a very strong reason they keep picking Vince or Ballance or Hales in test matches, it is the assured contribution to a top order melt down!

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:26 am

Early collapses , yes...but normally Cook or Root will get at least one big score in a match...

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Post by KO-KING Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:35 am

Anyone else feel like rashids action is a bit dodgy

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:52 am

I know this won't surprise goose but I would be looking to bring Batty on again soon. Utilise his experience and confidence of 2 wickets so far.

We can't wait too long now. Bangladesh need 85 more currently. Get that under 60 with still 5 (maybe even 4) left and we're really going to be sweating.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:59 am

A miss by Bairstow off Broad. I thought very hard but a chance nonetheless.

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:11 am

Getting a bit tight.

Need a wicket soon or a surprise result looms...

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:13 am

Bangla progressing quite serenely. England's bowlers posing next to no threat...the lone chance dropped by Bairstow (I guess he really does have to have at least 1 per match).

Hosts should have this very nearly wrapped up by close of play. Can't say they haven't deserved this win. England's batting continuing to be very patchy - reliant on one or two good individual displays. Bowling erratic at best...a certain amount of control, the odd good delivery but lots of dross or non-threatening stuff in between.

Sad to see our bowlers continuing to struggle on sub-continent pitches.
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:25 am

67 runs or 5 wickets to win.

Both teams have 1 review left, could be important.

Batty back on as I wanted but expensive.

Edit: However, he gets a wicket!! 59 runs or 4 wickets needed now. Pendulum swings in favour of England.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:26 am

A real fizzer from Batty has Mushfiqur ballooning a catch to Ballance! BAN 227-6.

Batty's 3rd of the innings. Have England just forced the door open...or is it too little, too late? Not much batting to come for Ban.

I'd like to think my previous post contributed to the breakthrough (Trebell stylee). Wink
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:35 am

dyrewolfe wrote:A real fizzer from Batty has Mushfiqur ballooning a catch to Ballance! BAN 227-6.

Batty's 3rd of the innings. Have England just forced the door open...or is it too little, too late? Not much batting to come for Ban.

I'd like to think my previous post contributed to the breakthrough (Trebell stylee). Wink

Batty's 4 match wickets (and hopefully still counting Wink ) have all come from decent balls. The rest of the time he certainly hasn't been rubbish but there have been a few too short or slow. If he can increasingly cut those out, he could have a very good winter tour.

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:38 am

Batty getting that break perhaps jut in time ? Sabbir still looms as the match winner for Bangladesh if he can find support...

Can Batty win it for England ?

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:42 am

guildfordbat wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:A real fizzer from Batty has Mushfiqur ballooning a catch to Ballance! BAN 227-6.

Batty's 3rd of the innings. Have England just forced the door open...or is it too little, too late? Not much batting to come for Ban.

I'd like to think my previous post contributed to the breakthrough (Trebell stylee). Wink

Batty's 4 match wickets (and hopefully still counting Wink ) have all come from decent balls. The rest of the time he certainly hasn't been rubbish but there have been a few too short or slow. If he can increasingly cut those out, he could have a very good winter tour.

I wasn't on about Batty specifically - I meant our bowling attack in general. Our spinners have all got wickets but often been quite expensive. Our seamers have offered more control but rarely looked like getting wickets.


And of course as I type this Broad gets Mehedi Rolling Eyes Bangla now 234-7 and still needing 52 more runs. Hutch door well and truly open now.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:44 am

Broad gets Mehedi lbw. Thought that looked (very) out. Bangladesh waste their last review. They could regret that although get them back in another 9 overs once 80 have been bowled - think that's right.

52 runs or 3 wickets needed from here ....

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:51 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:A real fizzer from Batty has Mushfiqur ballooning a catch to Ballance! BAN 227-6.

Batty's 3rd of the innings. Have England just forced the door open...or is it too little, too late? Not much batting to come for Ban.

I'd like to think my previous post contributed to the breakthrough (Trebell stylee). Wink

Batty's 4 match wickets (and hopefully still counting Wink ) have all come from decent balls. The rest of the time he certainly hasn't been rubbish but there have been a few too short or slow. If he can increasingly cut those out, he could have a very good winter tour.

I wasn't on about Batty specifically - I meant our bowling attack in general. Our spinners have all got wickets but often been quite expensive. Our seamers have offered more control but rarely looked like getting wickets.


And of course as I type this Broad gets Mehedi Rolling Eyes Bangla now 234-7 and still needing 52 more runs. Hutch door well and truly open now.


Hi dyre - yep, I realised that. It was just me who was specifically on about Batty - some of the audience expect that! Wink

Batty now off with Broad and Stokes operating in tandem. Wouldn't have been my call but we should have enough quality with the ball to get numbers 9, 10 and jack before the impressive Sabbir guides Bangladesh over the line.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:54 am

Broad strikes again to remove Kamrul for 0! Ballance with the catch. Bangla 238-8.

Suddenly momentum is back with England.
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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:56 am

Seems it is Broad - well rested most of the match ! - who is the man to have the (final ?) say...

England apparently not trusting spin in favor of reverse ; seemingly a good call !

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:06 pm

Not sure Sabir is thinking this through. He's just taking the singles and letting Taijul face the heat. Not sure Taijul has the quality to stick around for long.
Think Sabir should now go for the bowling. Otherwise this just could be over pretty soon.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:06 pm

And if only they batted a bit more sensibly in that first innings! Bangladesh would be left to wonder.......

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:08 pm

Going to be an anxious night for everyone if we don't get a result in this next 8 overs...

Sabbir has played a blinder but its asking a lot to do it on his own now. Batty back to bowl to the number ten.

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:11 pm

Nearly ! Slips just too close to catch those...

OK , Jordan might have Smile

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:15 pm

Wonderful spell from Broad , though he won't be allowed to continue in this light .

Sabbir to go for glory against Batty now ?

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:15 pm

9 on the reel from Broad. Cracking effort with his two wickets fully deserved.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:17 pm

The new ball is very close. The spinners have done better with the new ball, so though only 33 more to go, England shouldn't be too bothered........

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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:19 pm

In fact it's Taijul going for it ! And putting Batty away...

Are Bangladesh going to do it after all ?

Not today : Cook cannot trust his spinners so he's forced the bad light call.

33 runs or two wickets ? Your guess is as good as mine...

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Post by KO-KING Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:21 pm

Excellent call by Cook

Still England favourite

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:25 pm

alfie wrote:In fact it's Taijul going for it !  And putting Batty away...

Are Bangladesh going to do it after all ?

Not today : Cook cannot trust his spinners so he's forced the bad light call.

33 runs or two wickets ?  Your guess is as good as mine...


Have to say I think momentum has swung back to Bangladesh now. Taijul's made it clear he's not going to be anyone's bunny.

Unless England get on top of Bangla straight away, keep runs to a minimum and put pressure on them to score, I think they will happily milk England's bowling now that the end is in sight.

To win, England needed to run through the tail today.
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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:25 pm

msp83 wrote:The new ball is very close. The spinners have done better with the new ball, so though only 33 more to go, England shouldn't be too bothered........

When it gets down to 33 runs I think anyone has to be at least a little "bothered" . Only takes a few good hits...a lucky edge or two.
Don't think any of the combatants will sleep too easily tonight.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:30 pm

alfie wrote:In fact it's Taijul going for it !  And putting Batty away...

Are Bangladesh going to do it after all ?

Not today : Cook cannot trust his spinners so he's forced the bad light call.

33 runs or two wickets ?  Your guess is as good as mine...

And who is going to bowl in the morning? And do we take the new ball?

On Sky, James Taylor going along with Rob Key's suggestion that Cook didn't trust his spinners enough. ''Field set for Adil suggested he (Cook) had no confidence whatsoever in him'' - Taylor.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 23 Oct 2016, 1:03 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:In fact it's Taijul going for it !  And putting Batty away...

Are Bangladesh going to do it after all ?

Not today : Cook cannot trust his spinners so he's forced the bad light call.

33 runs or two wickets ?  Your guess is as good as mine...

And who is going to bowl in the morning? And do we take the new ball?

On Sky, James Taylor going along with Rob Key's suggestion that Cook didn't trust his spinners enough. ''Field set for Adil suggested he (Cook) had no confidence whatsoever in him'' - Taylor.

Well he needs to trust them because we need to take the new ball and them to win the game. Cook has been a fantastic captain in recent times but he gave away far too many singles early in thus Bangladesh innings with defensive field placings.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 23 Oct 2016, 1:16 pm

I am not a believer in moral wins.....so won't grant that to brave BD.

What I can say though had Eng not won the toss....they would have lost.
They could still lose after having set 286 in the 4th inning on a square turning minefield
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Post by alfie Sun 23 Oct 2016, 1:27 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:In fact it's Taijul going for it !  And putting Batty away...

Are Bangladesh going to do it after all ?

Not today : Cook cannot trust his spinners so he's forced the bad light call.

33 runs or two wickets ?  Your guess is as good as mine...

And who is going to bowl in the morning? And do we take the new ball?

On Sky, James Taylor going along with Rob Key's suggestion that Cook didn't trust his spinners enough. ''Field set for Adil suggested he (Cook) had no confidence whatsoever in him'' - Taylor.

Well he needs to trust them because we need to take the new ball and them to win the game. Cook has been a fantastic captain in recent times but he gave away far too many singles early in thus Bangladesh innings with defensive field placings.


Maybe. On the other hand if the old ball reverses for Stokes and Broad in the morning it might be tough for these two to start again...actually it could be a bit of a dilemma as there are so few runs left to play with - couple of loose overs from Rashid and it might be all over.
I suspect they will start with seam. What they do at 80 overs will be partly down to how the batsmen are approaching their task. But if he does turn to spin it will probably be Batty. Doubt we will see Rashid against the well set Sabbir and a left hander.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 2:04 pm

The pitch has been a very fine one. Very lively, and it has been turn more than inconsistent bounce so far. Batsmen with good spin playing abilities and good temperament have managed to find ways to score runs, seamers who have got the skill to reverse have done well.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Oct 2016, 2:06 pm

Think it is going to be the inexperience of Bangladesh and pressure of the situation that is the biggest advantage for England. The closer they get, the greater will be the pressure on the batsman. And 33 are a fair few runs to be made for the last 2 wickets, remember Bangladesh managed only 28 for their last 6 wickets in their first innings, a passage in which they well and truly lost the game.......

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 23 Oct 2016, 5:00 pm

I think its fair to say cook hasnt trusted his attacking spinners, but then nor have they earnt that.
Moeen is possibly the most frustrating having delivered the best individual overs and some absolute dross.

Broad has been very unlucky, a lot of near misses off his bowling and both he and stokes have made the best of conditions in different ways.

If england do lose then you could either blame it on cook for underusing the spinners or the spinners for failing to take advantage of a perfect platform.

Or of course on the top 4s batting ....

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Post by wisden Sun 23 Oct 2016, 6:45 pm

It can't be said that Cook didn't under use the spinners...He bowled them long spells and he gave them all a fair opportunity...It's not his fault that they let him down, Cook for once can't really be at fault here...

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 23 Oct 2016, 9:30 pm

wisden wrote:It can't be said that Cook didn't under use the spinners...He bowled them long spells and he gave them all a fair opportunity...It's not his fault that they let him down, Cook for once can't really be at fault here...

Yep, whilst I would have liked to have seen a few more overs from England's spinners today, I accept it's understandable that Cook didn't feel the same. They've each had a reasonable opportunity and have actually bowled almost the same number of overs in this Test with pretty similar returns.

Match analyses to end of day 4:
Batty 34/4/116/4. Ave: 29.00 Econ: 3.41
Moeen 36/6/135/5. Ave: 27.00 Econ: 3.75
Rashid 33/3/113/3. Ave: 37.67 Econ: 3.42

Nothing terrible about the above stats but equally they're some way off being outstanding and probably not good enough to win a series in Asia. Connected with a few too many runs conceded (I had particularly hoped that Batty would go at more like 2.4 an over), not enough maidens bowled to apply pressure - just 13 out of the combined 103 overs.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:00 pm

Sorry but watching the play I thought the field was too defensive from the beginning, far too many singles given up easily, thus the lack of maidens (and economy rates up).

Thought all the spinners bowled pretty well - nothing spectacular admittedly.

Think you give it two overs of seam to see if it reverses, if it doesn't you take the new ball and trust the spinners.
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Post by JDizzle Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:53 pm

To be fair to Cook, on a pitch where runs are at a premium, you can't really afford to go attacking and give up a host of boundaries. It is a massive concern with the 6 Tests we have coming up in Asia though.

You go with your two guns tomorrow morning - Broad and Stokes. Although I would have Rashid perma-ready, and if you get the tail ender on strike to start an over I would be tempted just to get him on. As that should be his calling card.

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Post by alfie Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:25 am

So Stokes does the job clap

Somehow fitting the two final wickets are decided by DRS/Dharmasena lbw calls...

Have to feel for Bangladesh , especially Sabbir , left high and dry.

Top game of cricket ...England relieved ...and not much doubt who will be MotM.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:51 am

Missed it ..doh!

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:19 am

Full credit to B'desh for putting up such a good fight. But surely England would have won far more comfortably if they had had even one decent spinner. Can't see England playing both Batty and Rashid in the next Test, or in India.

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Post by SimonofSurrey Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:47 am

Ok, so my moniker may be a bit of a giveaway, but I would be inclined to bring in Hameed and Ansari for Ballance and Rashid next test. Importantly, Cook seems not to trust Rashid as a Test bowler. Ansari took four in his pre-Test outing and has always looked a class act. He is also as likely as any to add a few essential middle/late order runs: he has opened the batting for Surrey in the four day game. Woakes's runs may have saved him as the luxury third seamer. And it is surely time to give Hameed a run as opener, in the next game and in India. Ballance is not going to re-discover his early Test career mojo on South Asian wickets.

My 11 for Dhaka:

Cook, Hameed, Root, Duckett, Ali, Stokes, Bairstow, Woakes, Ansari, Broad, Batty.

In principle, batting right the way down the order and a minimum of six genuine bowling options.


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Post by VTR Mon 24 Oct 2016, 10:15 am

I suspect Rashid and possibly Ballance will be given one more game to turn it round, now that England are ahead in the series

Not saying that I would agree with that, though I think Rashid deserves another game, Ballance has had a run of games and has looked a shadow of the player from a couple of years ago

Very good win in the end anyway - Stokes with a telling late effort in the final three innings of the match was the difference between the sides and his best all-round performance for England so far

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Post by alfie Mon 24 Oct 2016, 10:26 am

Simon , that XI doesn't look too bad , though I would really be happier if we could get Root back down to four- which I accept probably isn't going to happen with two new boys in the top four (I would agree to replace Ballance : not certain Bayliss will but we will see soon enough)
Ansari for Rashid makes sense in terms of form in the lead up - I suspect he might have enjoyed the pitch in this match ; wonder if the same will apply next week ? But it might be seen as a little harsh and frankly I think Ansari will have to wait a while yet. (Ideally he'd replace Batty to give a full set of spin types but that isn't going to happen at this time - nor should it. Even though Batty didn't quite bring the control some were hoping for he did take some very vital wickets ; and is probably still the most "trustworthy" of the spin options.
If I had a guess I'd say Hameed for Ballance will be the only change. But Rashid will need to have an improved showing with the Indian tour looming.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:06 am

I see the third spinner as the luxury much more than the third seamer.

Having that third seamer enabled England to bowl broad and Stokes a significant amount. On another day it may have been Woakes who was doing the damage. And all round the seamers were the ones controlling the run rate. Without three they would have been much more reliant on the spinners.

Two spinners however should be able to shoulder 30 overs each in an innings without falling apart. Yes each offers a different challenge, but as it panned out Batty hasnt been offering that much more control than Rashid and Moeen did .. the control all came from the seamers, and a fairly even split of wickets too.
With Root offering a bit of occasional option bowling there could be an argument for a radical change and ditching Batty for a specialist batsman (Hameed). It wont happen of course.

Id agree Rashid needs to improve his bowling as the front line strike option, but we are talking one test here.

Again Ill re-iterate my arguments regarding bringing Hameed in ..
..does that really fill you with confidence that it would strengthen the top 4? On the evidence of 20 first class games in which hes struggled for scoring shots against weak bowling?
Who do England think has the most potential to fill the openers spot : I assume Duckett. Shunting him down the order to 4/5 with Hameed in at 2 for a temporary patch up doesn't solve that. Sticking him at 3 and Hammed at 2 leaves them looking even more exposed.
Its classic deck chair shuffling, OK Ballance isnt playing well but the combinations without him look even worse on paper.
Cook finding some form could help a lot.

I expect the side to remain unchanged for the next test, after that there may be a need for changes come the India series if the same problems still persist.



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