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England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?
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Post by alfie Thu 27 Oct 2016, 10:34 am

So it is Ansari for Batty and Finn for Broad. Bats deep enough...

Only trouble I see is a distinct lack of "control" bowling : can't see Finn being in Broad's class for economy.
However I am hoping Ansari might actually prove an asset on these pitches ; he gives a bit more variety to the spin department and who knows ? He might be at least as economical as his more experienced teammate ...

Still think Batty will play a part in India.

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Post by VTR Thu 27 Oct 2016, 10:47 am

I know its not the point of the selection - but I genuinely think Finn is a better Test batsman than Broad these days!

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 27 Oct 2016, 11:17 am

VTR wrote:I know its not the point of the selection - but I genuinely think Finn is a better Test batsman than Broad these days!

Either could play in the top 4

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 27 Oct 2016, 11:26 am

alfie wrote:So it is Ansari for Batty and Finn for Broad.  Bats deep enough...

Only trouble I see is a distinct lack of "control" bowling : can't see Finn being in Broad's class for economy.  
However I am hoping Ansari might actually prove an asset on these pitches ; he gives a bit more variety to the spin department and who knows ? He might be at least as economical as his more experienced teammate ...

Still think Batty will play a part in India.

Thing is Batty wasnt noticeably more economic that the other two, and none of them really got smacked about ( well ..Ali a bit in the second innings when he chucked up some dross, but Rashid stayed fairly cheap). Ditto the seamers...Broad was actually the least economical of them in the second innings. Over the game Bangladesh scored at about 3 an over, so overall Englands control wasn't the problem ...it was their strike rate and letting partnerships drag on .

What England will miss is Broads variety and his ability to bowl a monster spell in the heat (albeit medium pace).

I guess Finn brings (in theory) a greater threat, and his height causes the ball to come at an angle the Bangladeshi batsmen wont be comfortable with on any pace pitch. Im not sure where this leaves guys like Ball in the pecking order though, must be deflating (groan) for him.

What does seem to be happening, and based on the pres confusion/speculation, is that England have come out with a big squad and a very open mind regarding selection based on performance on the tour and in the nets.

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Post by alfie Thu 27 Oct 2016, 12:06 pm

Yes I'm not really all that bothered about the bowling , Goose....obviously the absence of Broad , with Anderson already out , leaves a lot of class on the bench but they do seem to have a few options so you'd hope they can do the job (and it must help in the overall tour planning for a couple more to get a good workout.
As you say , Batty didn't actually end up any more economical than the other spinners (perhaps surprisingly ?) but I fancy he was used at critical times with economy in mind and Cook may still miss him if the others do get collared this week...we shall see.  Not sure I'd agree the spinners weren't smacked around though : the seamers kept the run rate under control but all the spinners went at over three which on that pitch was a bit high , I thought. Would hope for improvement ...

Looks as if they mean what they said about rotation. If Ansari impresses it provides a potential option for resting Woakes in India without actually weakening the batting ( presumably he is one who will struggle to play seven Tests in a row ; he was pretty lightly used in Chittagong so perhaps they've had this rotation plan sketched out rather well in advance ? Or is that reading too much into it ?

In any case the batting hasn't changed so if Ballance and Duckett can't get some runs here young Hameed might well find himself thrust into action against the Big Guns. Ah well : didn't hurt Root - or Cook.
Hope at least one of them gets going though as England will want to win this match and series regardless ; and they wouldn't really want to be 30/3 every week.

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Post by JDizzle Thu 27 Oct 2016, 12:31 pm

Haven't really seen much of Ansar bowling (definitely not in 4 day stuff), so Guildford et al will probably know better than me - but is it true he is quicker through the air than Batty?

It was noticeable that Batty made a conscious effort to bowl faster as the Test went on, so would be interesting to know if that went into their reasoning. If they fancy Ansar to carry on turning it at a faster pace than Batty.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 27 Oct 2016, 1:26 pm

Cook wrote:It was always the plan to play Ansari in one Test here. He has the ability to take the ball away from the right-handers and I've seen in the nets is he can bowl at good pace with good control. He can also bat as well, which is good."

Which rather does away with the theory that they have an open mind, more that they've decided to "give everyone a go" like at infant school.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 27 Oct 2016, 1:31 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Cook wrote:It was always the plan to play Ansari in one Test here. He has the ability to take the ball away from the right-handers and I've seen in the nets is he can bowl at good pace with good control. He can also bat as well, which is good."

Which rather does away with the theory that they have an open mind, more that they've decided to "give everyone a go" like at infant school.

I think giving players a go is right as this (rightly or wrongly) is being treated as a warm up for India. Need to have some idea of how they'll do if they need to play a test or two in India

Thus my surprise Hameed isn't being given a game
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 27 Oct 2016, 3:26 pm

To be fair I dont think he'd make a good 3rd spinner.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 27 Oct 2016, 4:01 pm

Congratulations to Ansari on selection - just be careful not to slip getting out the shower....

I would be inclined to put him behind Woakes, but ahead of Rashid, in the batting order.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 27 Oct 2016, 8:59 pm

JDizzle wrote:Haven't really seen much of Ansar bowling (definitely not in 4 day stuff), so Guildford et al will probably know better than me - but is it true he is quicker through the air than Batty?

It was noticeable that Batty made a conscious effort to bowl faster as the Test went on, so would be interesting to know if that went into their reasoning. If they fancy Ansar to carry on turning it at a faster pace than Batty.

Hi JD - I'm not sure that Ansari is quicker, not noticeably so anyway. Based on Batty's experiences in the first Test, I feel Ansari may need to go at a little bit more lick than in England. Anyway, wish him well. As well as brains, he's got nous which is more important.

Following on from a comment made the other day by MfC which I forgot to confirm - yes, Ansari is a very good fielder, both fairly close in (not slips but cover, mid wicket, etc) or out on the rope.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 27 Oct 2016, 9:15 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Congratulations to Ansari on selection - just be careful not to slip getting out the shower....

I would be inclined to put him behind Woakes, but ahead of Rashid, in the batting order.

Corporal - I remember watching on tv the build up to the 1980 FA Cup Final featuring your West Ham when Brian Clough said of the Hammers' talented but injury prone striker Stuart Pearson, ''He'll probably get hurt getting off the bus!''. To be fair and complete any story, Pearson had a good game and your boys of course won beating the Gooners. Hopefully, Ansari can do similar.

As regards batting, Zaf would be an interesting nightwatchman. If that happened, the betting boys here could do worse than put a fiver on the draw! Very Happy

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Post by JDizzle Thu 27 Oct 2016, 10:53 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Haven't really seen much of Ansar bowling (definitely not in 4 day stuff), so Guildford et al will probably know better than me - but is it true he is quicker through the air than Batty?

It was noticeable that Batty made a conscious effort to bowl faster as the Test went on, so would be interesting to know if that went into their reasoning. If they fancy Ansar to carry on turning it at a faster pace than Batty.

Hi JD - I'm not sure that Ansari is quicker, not noticeably so anyway. Based on Batty's experiences in the first Test, I feel Ansari may need to go at a little bit more lick than in England. Anyway, wish him well. As well as brains, he's got nous which is more important.

Following on from a comment made the other day by MfC which I forgot to confirm - yes, Ansari is a very good fielder, both fairly close in (not slips but cover, mid wicket, etc) or out on the rope.

Cheers Guildford. Like I say, I have not seen much of him but one of the journos on Twitter suggested his extra pace might be useful in sub continent. I believe him and the much maligned (by myself mainly!) Burger Van know each other quite well though, I understand - same age/same age group teams. I wonder if Freddie has passed on some advice about having to wait a long time for an opportunity... Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 27 Oct 2016, 10:54 pm

I for one am extremely excited for Ansari's 29 (131) on day two
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 6:41 am

Ansari mirroring my (perceived) worry about Rashid. A few decent deliveries but too many loose ones as the Surrey man goes for a run a ball 36 off his first 6 overs.

Bangladesh and Tamim especially going very well at 106/1 with 20 minutes to lunch.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 28 Oct 2016, 7:03 am

Combination of bad bowling and aggressive batting means Bangladesh are on top
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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 7:10 am

Rough couple of hours for England ! Have to praise the Bangladesh batsmen for their aggressive intent ; but really they've been served far too many poor deliveries.
The risk involved in leaving out your most experienced seamer and also (though not in Tests) most experienced spinner might be biting already...
Disappointed in Ansari I have to admit. First game so will cut him some slack but he will need to improve on that effort.

Ah well the interval might enable some regrouping. But they don't want to kill Stokes with overwork so the others are going to have to get their act together or this is going to get away fast...

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 7:11 am

Just 6 maidens in the 28 overs of the first session and all of those from the seamers. Spinners seemingly unable to apply control and exert pressure.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 7:55 am

Atherton suggested at lunch that the selection here of Ansari and Rashid was a shootout between the two for the first Test in India. Assuming that's correct, I'm far from convinced it's the right approach. Not for the first time, looking to the future and overlooking the here and now.

In line with Alfie's post, I do feel Batty's greater (first class) experience is now being missed. He wasn't as tight as I would have hoped in the previous Test but he improved as the match went on. I would have tried to build on that.

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Post by VTR Fri 28 Oct 2016, 7:56 am

Simon Kerrigan is a lot taller than the last time he played for England. Luckily we have Ansari in the squad who must be a due a debut soon with his economical bowling

Lights grenade and runs!

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:08 am

VTR - if Kerrigan hadn't had that solitary Test, it's probably true to say he would be more in contention now. Nothing like not playing to make you look a better player!

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Post by KP_fan Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:19 am

So Eng did not win the toss.....and to me toss was the only reason why Eng just scraped past the finish line in Chittagong.
I would stick  my neck out now and put BD 60-40 favorite to win this one
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Post by VTR Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:22 am

guildfordbat wrote:VTR - if Kerrigan hadn't had that solitary Test, it's probably true to say he would be more in contention now. Nothing like not playing to make you look a better player!

Agreed - obviously my comment was tongue in cheek but it's not very promising from Ansari so far. Some players, such as Kerrigan are just not made for Test cricket. I'm not writing Ansari off based on six overs, but unless he improves dramatically then he won't be selectable for the Indian Tests

Seems England's experimentation is backfiring as feared - we now have three spinners that Cook probably doesn't trust, Finn spraying it around as usual leaving probably only Stokes - not that long back off a serious injury - as just about the only reliable bowler. 1-1 is definitely beckoning and 5-0 in India (to India, not England!) wouldn't surprise anyone really

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:35 am

VTR wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:VTR - if Kerrigan hadn't had that solitary Test, it's probably true to say he would be more in contention now. Nothing like not playing to make you look a better player!

Agreed - obviously my comment was tongue in cheek but it's not very promising from Ansari so far. Some players, such as Kerrigan are just not made for Test cricket. I'm not writing Ansari off based on six overs, but unless he improves dramatically then he won't be selectable for the Indian Tests

Seems England's experimentation is backfiring as feared - we now have three spinners that Cook probably doesn't trust, Finn spraying it around as usual leaving probably only Stokes - not that long back off a serious injury - as just about the only reliable bowler. 1-1 is definitely beckoning and 5-0 in India (to India, not England!) wouldn't surprise anyone really

Lets not forget that Borthwick has an excellent test bowling average ....
In Ansaris defense though his debut so far is even worse than Shane Wanres was, which means by logic he will become an even better player (possibly)

Christ sake though these guys. Its just as well England bat to 10.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:36 am

So as I was just saying Ali is a brilliant bowler with a world class ability to take wickets at crucial times through a mixture of skill and bravery Whistle


(5 runs of the next 3 balls Rolling Eyes )

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Post by VTR Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:42 am

England's spin options then:

Batty - reliable but is about 50
Ali - part-timer/partnership breaker
Rashid - bowling average of about 70
Borthwick - more Mike Atherton than Shane Warne in terms of legspin
Kerrigan - worst debut of all time
Ansari - trying to better the above

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Post by sirfredperry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:46 am

Hardly surprising that B are doing well.This must be the weakest bowling attack England have fielded for years. (Of course, it doesn't help to be missing the 800 Test wickets Anderson and Broad bring to matches).

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 28 Oct 2016, 8:50 am

VTR wrote:England's spin options then:

Batty - reliable but is about 50
Ali - part-timer/partnership breaker
Rashid - bowling average of about 70
Borthwick - more Mike Atherton than Shane Warne in terms of legspin
Kerrigan - worst debut of all time
Ansari - trying to better the above

Not a lot you can do when you don't have the players unfortunately - long gone are the days of Swann and Panesar
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:02 am

And remarkably Moeen becomes England's leading wicket taker in this Test series.

That was for goose. Wink

Anyway, some decent bowling there - at last! 194/3 and England not that far out of it now. The day could yet belong to the side that wins the last session.

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Post by jimbohammers Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:16 am

I'm not a fan of Batty but he done ok last game, surprised to see him dropped for Ansari, who so far looks a bit out of his depth at this level

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:17 am

And now 196/4

Stokes at last rewarded for some excellent bowling. clap One more now and England are just about back in it Smile

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:18 am

Mahmadullah gone for just 13 - poor shot. Stokes claims England's fourth wicket. BAN 196-4.

Tourists slowly turning the match back in their favour?

Phenomenal control bowling by Stokes going some way to making up for the profligacy of Woakes, Ansari and Rashid.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:21 am

alfie wrote:And now 196/4

Stokes at last rewarded for some excellent bowling. clap  One more now and England are just about back in it Smile

If we can keep them to around 300 we're in the game
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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:22 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:England's spin options then:

Batty - reliable but is about 50
Ali - part-timer/partnership breaker
Rashid - bowling average of about 70
Borthwick - more Mike Atherton than Shane Warne in terms of legspin
Kerrigan - worst debut of all time
Ansari - trying to better the above

Not a lot you can do when you don't have the players unfortunately - long gone are the days of Swann and Panesar

Who were both accused of being sub par ahead of the last India tour.

How the world changes.

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:26 am

sirfredperry wrote:Hardly surprising that B are doing well.This must be the weakest bowling attack England have fielded for years. (Of course, it doesn't help to be missing the 800 Test wickets Anderson and Broad bring to matches).
 

Yes that thought did occur to me this morning...

In truth - as guildford also hinted - England have certainly taken a risk by "rotating out" their experienced bowlers : there was always potential for this to go wrong.
But with the absurd programme England have accepted in the India tour they arguably had little choice but to change the bowers around - the main quibble I have is that it might have been safer to rest Rashid rather than Batty (Control , lots of left handers to attack, experience) - but it wasn't clear cut.

One day , of course , Anderson will be gone , and planning for the future is part of the coach's remit . Guess this is part of it. But the last time Broad and Anderson both missed , West Indies made 500 and drew...

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:32 am

Ali and Stokes getting England back into it ...

And more so now as Cook takes a great catch Yahoo

Next test : Stokes can't bowl forever : Woakes (?) will need to step up when he's done...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:33 am

Moeen!
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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:38 am

Wow! Moeen claims his 3rd wicket, getting Mushfiqur for just 4.

As I type this Stokes gets Sabbir for a duck. Bangladesh having a mini collapse, now 202-6, having been 171-2.

Think England have just swung the balance back in their favour. Get rid of the top 6 and there isn't much batting left. Bangla seem to be panicking a bit now...could easily be all out for around 250.
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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:45 am

Bowling partnership of the series so far. This is exactly what England have set their attack up for : control for the seamers and attack form the spinners, encourage the batsmen to play risky shots against the turning ball.

Its amazing how rapidly its turned round after that first wicket.

Stokes really has come on remarkably this year.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:47 am

England will need a decent first innings total even if they keep this up to polish off the tail. 300? Well they have the depth to get there.

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Post by VTR Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:48 am

Very poor from Bangladesh, collapsing in the face of our two man bowling attack. England look like they could be about to get out of jail here though will have to bat well and take a lead

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:51 am

So I switched on at 196-3 or so, with England in the middle of a good spell, which has turned into a really excellent one. From 171-1 to 205-6 and England have forced themselves right back into the game. Stokes has really developped into a fine cricketer, his bowling especially impressive in these Tests. Terrific spell from him, and has built the pressure that has made BD take more risks against Moeen. Shout out also to Moeen who has been excellent in this spell. I'm particularly pleased to see him come around the wicket to the right handers, think it's something he should do more of. Last off, great reflexes from Cook for that catch!

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 9:52 am

Took 5 for 31over the last hour or so...

Pretty good comeback Smile

I do like Moeen as a bowler : he has a knack of getting wickets ...I think we must accept that he will sometimes be expensive and make sure he is paired with bowlers who can exert some control (which may not be Rashid ?...) Aah , leave that for later.

Another good Test Match it seems : not predicting the last session ; but so far two batsmen and two bowlers have shown the skills we all love to admire

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:15 am

Well that didn't take long!

Woakes gets his second wicket, getting Hom caught behind for 6. BAN 212-7. Shouldn't take long to wrap this up now. Shakib will put up some resistance, but he's rapidly running out of help.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:16 am

Ben Stokes is a very very special player, a few months ago I was advocating him being dropped from the team for being too patchy a player, the odd 50 or bowling burst here or there but the past month he's been a beast.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:17 am

212/7 as Woakes gets another.

Complete turnaround from - what was it? - about 171/1.

Doubt that Ansari will bowl again in this innings. No complaints about that but a disappointing start for him whilst England would in some ways have liked the opportunity sooner to see if he could put those first 6 overs behind him.

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:21 am

Pleased to see Woakes doing as I hoped and continuing Stokes' good works...

Still need to get Shakib

Eight now! Four for Moeen ...great review

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Post by alfie Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:22 am

guildfordbat wrote:212/7 as Woakes gets another.

Complete turnaround from - what was it? - about 171/1.

Doubt that Ansari will bowl again in this innings. No complaints about that but a disappointing start for him whilst England would in some ways have liked the opportunity sooner to see if he could put those first 6 overs behind him.

Maybe he will get some runs and have another go in the second innings with a bit more confidence...

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:23 am

Moeen gets his 4th! Mehedi lbw for 1 and BAN are 213-8

Can he get a Michelle?

This is rapidly becoming a rout.
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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 28 Oct 2016, 10:25 am

7 wickets for 40-odd runs. Tamim and Mominul must be fuming after all their good work.
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