BBC Northern Ireland

As far as I can tell, BBCNI televise nigh on (if not) all of Ulster's home games.

We know that the broadcast income of the PrO'12 is c.€14m.

We know that BBC Wales pay £4.5m and Sky £5.5m. So that's £10m. So around €12m, dependent upon the day of the week. We're told that TG4 pay €900,000 and Alba £150,000 (so call that €1.1m for ease of figures).

Therefore, is BBCNI paying the difference? That would be £750,000 tops for 11 games.

Am I close? Does anybody have the figures?

BBC would have the figures, you tried asking?

No. Not yet.

Is this another pointless, meaningless whinge I see? I think so.

Pete330v2 wrote:Is this another pointless, meaningless whinge I see? I think so.

Yip, rather than using FoI to ask the question of those with the figures he thought he'd stir the pot some more using guessing

Pete330v2 wrote:Is this another pointless, meaningless whinge I see? I think so.

It's flushing out how much BBC NI contribute to the pot. With so much talk about increasing the broadcaster income for the PrO'12, shouldn't you see this kind of thing as important?

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Is this another pointless, meaningless whinge I see? I think so.

Yip, rather than using FoI to ask the question of those with the figures he thought he'd stir the pot some more using guessing

It's hardly guessing.

Who should I address the FoI to in BBC NI?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Is this another pointless, meaningless whinge I see? I think so.

Yip, rather than using FoI to ask the question of those with the figures he thought he'd stir the pot some more using guessing

It's hardly guessing.

Who should I address the FoI to in BBC NI?

Write to Jim Allister, at TUV HQ he'll bloody love you or hit Jamie Bryson up on Twitter, he's in the know these days

PhilBB wrote:As far as I can tell, BBCNI televise nigh on (if not) all of Ulster's home games.

We know that the broadcast income of the PrO'12 is c.€14m.

We know that BBC Wales pay £4.5m and Sky £5.5m. So that's £10m. So around €12m, dependent upon the day of the week. We're told that TG4 pay €900,000 and Alba £150,000 (so call that €1.1m for ease of figures).

Therefore, is BBCNI paying the difference? That would be £750,000 tops for 11 games.

Am I close? Does anybody have the figures?

Do you have the facts backing your claim that Wales pay £4.5 million?

marty2086 wrote:

Write to Jim Allister, at TUV HQ he'll bloody love you or hit Jamie Bryson up on Twitter, he's in the know these days

@JamieBrysonCPNI ?

Who is Allister?

Munchkin wrote:
Do you have the facts backing your claim that Wales pay £4.5 million?

Only what is reported in the press.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Do you have the facts backing your claim that Wales pay £4.5 million?

Only what is reported in the press.

So that would be no then.

Thanks.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Do you have the facts backing your claim that Wales pay £4.5 million?

Only what is reported in the press.

So that would be no then.

Thanks.

Really? Ok. Interesting take on things.

Therefore, we have no proof of anybody paying anything.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Do you have the facts backing your claim that Wales pay £4.5 million?

Only what is reported in the press.

So that would be no then.

Thanks.

Really? Ok. Interesting take on things.

Therefore, we have no proof of anybody paying anything.

We can get an idea, but I'm not convinced the Regions are pulling in £4.5 million. So we have SKY paying roughly £5.5 million as primary broadcaster, and we are supposed to believe that BBC Wales are paying close to that for 4 Regions? If they are, BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators.

BBC NI has had competition for broadcasting rights. Whatever they pay, it won't be peanuts.

The next PRO12 broadcasting deal will be substantially more than we get at present, if Anayi is to be believed. Maybe better to wait until then before ranting about who pays what, although that may not suit your agenda of pulling PRO12 down whatever the cost to the Regions.

Munchkin wrote:

We can get an idea, but I'm not convinced the Regions are pulling in £4.5 million. So we have SKY paying roughly £5.5 million as primary broadcaster, and we are supposed to believe that BBC Wales are paying close to that for 4 Regions? If they are, BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators.

BBC NI has had competition for broadcasting rights. Whatever they pay, it won't be peanuts.

The next PRO12 broadcasting deal will be substantially more than we get at present, if Anayi is to be believed. Maybe better to wait until then before ranting about who pays what, although that may not suit your agenda of pulling PRO12 down whatever the cost to the Regions.

Before we progress, I'd say the incredibly poor negotiators are the Pro12 who signed up to these deals when you consider what others got. Rugby is cheap TV to show.

Who competed with BBCNI for broadcasting rights?

I'm not sure how you can say that BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators and then claim support for the idea that the next TV deal will bring in the bucks.

Even if the BBC Wales / S4C deal is £3.5m, there still seems to be a huge shortfall coming out of the island of Ireland. And that's before we consider the joke in Scotland.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

We can get an idea, but I'm not convinced the Regions are pulling in £4.5 million. So we have SKY paying roughly £5.5 million as primary broadcaster, and we are supposed to believe that BBC Wales are paying close to that for 4 Regions? If they are, BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators.

BBC NI has had competition for broadcasting rights. Whatever they pay, it won't be peanuts.

The next PRO12 broadcasting deal will be substantially more than we get at present, if Anayi is to be believed. Maybe better to wait until then before ranting about who pays what, although that may not suit your agenda of pulling PRO12 down whatever the cost to the Regions.

Before we progress, I'd say the incredibly poor negotiators are the Pro12 who signed up to these deals when you consider what others got. Rugby is cheap TV to show.

Who competed with BBCNI for broadcasting rights?

I'm not sure how you can say that BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators and then claim support for the idea that the next TV deal will bring in the bucks.

Even if the BBC Wales / S4C deal is £3.5m, there still seems to be a huge shortfall coming out of the island of Ireland. And that's before we consider the joke in Scotland.

If the PRO12 negotiated a £4.5 million deal for the Regions, I would say they are fantastic negotiators, but don't let that little fact prevent your rant at them.

Munchkin wrote:

If the PRO12 negotiated a £4.5 million deal for the Regions, I would say they are fantastic negotiators, but don't let that little fact prevent your rant at them.

You would? Ok.

To make that judgement, please let me know:

a) the viewing figures
b) the comparative cost of the broadcast
c) the requirement to produce Welsh interest TV

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

If the PRO12 negotiated a £4.5 million deal for the Regions, I would say they are fantastic negotiators, but don't let that little fact prevent your rant at them.

You would? Ok.

To make that judgement, please let me know:

a) the viewing figures
b) the comparative cost of the broadcast
c) the requirement to produce Welsh interest TV

I don't need to answer all of that. All I need to know is SKY pay £5.5 million for primary rights (comparable costs). That's why I believe your claim of £4.5 million is highly questionable.

Munchkin wrote:We can get an idea, but I'm not convinced the Regions are pulling in £4.5 million. So we have SKY paying roughly £5.5 million as primary broadcaster, and we are supposed to believe that BBC Wales are paying close to that for 4 Regions? If they are, BBC Wales are incredibly poor negotiators.

BBC NI has had competition for broadcasting rights. Whatever they pay, it won't be peanuts.

The next PRO12 broadcasting deal will be substantially more than we get at present, if Anayi is to be believed. Maybe better to wait until then before ranting about who pays what, although that may not suit your agenda of pulling PRO12 down whatever the cost to the Regions.

The Pro12 fills a huge programming hole for S4C, all BBC regions need to fill quotas for local programming. Not only does the Pro12 do that for S4C, it pulls in ratings way above anything else they programme. Means that its worth a lot to them to keep them on air.

Who was BBC NIs competition? UTV?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Write to Jim Allister, at TUV HQ he'll bloody love you or hit Jamie Bryson up on Twitter, he's in the know these days

@JamieBrysonCPNI ?

Who is Allister?

That's the fella

Jim Allister, leader of the TUV. You googled Bryson but not Jim Allister TUV?
Hes a self righteous pontificating firebrand that constantly asks questions on spending and fails to put them in context

Munchkin wrote:

I don't need to answer all of that. All I need to know is SKY pay £5.5 million for primary rights (comparable costs). That's why I believe your claim of £4.5 million is highly questionable.

Sorry, but you do have to answer all of that to know whether BBC overpaid. Sky paid in AFTER BBC paid, so you can't even use Sky as the market yardstick.

marty2086 wrote:
The Pro12 fills a huge programming hole for S4C, all BBC regions need to fill quotas for local programming. Not only does the Pro12 do that for S4C, it pulls in ratings way above anything else they programme. Means that its worth a lot to them to keep them on air.

Who was BBC NIs competition? UTV?

I don't know who was BBC NI's competition. Do you know?

PrO'12 doesn't pull in ratings way above anything else on S4C, of course.

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1065/language/eng/

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I don't need to answer all of that. All I need to know is SKY pay £5.5 million for primary rights (comparable costs). That's why I believe your claim of £4.5 million is highly questionable.

Sorry, but you do have to answer all of that to know whether BBC overpaid. Sky paid in AFTER BBC paid, so you can't even use Sky as the market yardstick.

This is like A Few Good Men all over again

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The Pro12 fills a huge programming hole for S4C, all BBC regions need to fill quotas for local programming. Not only does the Pro12 do that for S4C, it pulls in ratings way above anything else they programme. Means that its worth a lot to them to keep them on air.

Who was BBC NIs competition? UTV?

I don't know who was BBC NI's competition. Do you know?

PrO'12 doesn't pull in ratings way above anything else on S4C, of course.

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1065/language/eng/

Nice of you to pick the week they show what was essentially a dead rubber

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1049/language/eng/

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The Pro12 fills a huge programming hole for S4C, all BBC regions need to fill quotas for local programming. Not only does the Pro12 do that for S4C, it pulls in ratings way above anything else they programme. Means that its worth a lot to them to keep them on air.

Who was BBC NIs competition? UTV?

I don't know who was BBC NI's competition. Do you know?

PrO'12 doesn't pull in ratings way above anything else on S4C, of course.

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1065/language/eng/

There you go Phill I've highlighted the pertinent sections to answer your question, read from the bottom up if that helps

The TV rights to the PRO12 were negotiated first for a primary broadcaster, then terrestrial, i.e. a primary broadcaster who could televise matches in the four relevant territories.

BBC NI pay £15 million pounds for the rights to the PRO12 however £14 million of that is directly syphoned to IRFU headquarters in Dublin via Ulster Rugby, this is used to buy the IRFU committee special green IRFU blazers made of real emeralds and lined with gold cloth and with diamond encrusted buttons.
The IRFU committee wear these when the PRO12 members get together and the SRU, WRU and IRU are so dazzled and overawed by these wonderful garments that they willingly submit to their bejewelled Irish overlords and agree to all their proposals whatever the detriment to their own countries.
But you knew that anyway didn't you Phil ?

marty2086 wrote:
Nice of you to pick the week they show what was essentially a dead rubber

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1049/language/eng/

So the best you could find for 'way above' was a 4% increase in one week?

Top stuff.

Pete330v2 wrote:

There you go Phill I've highlighted the pertinent sections to answer your question, read from the bottom up if that helps

So what did UTV bid?

PhilBB wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

There you go Phill I've highlighted the pertinent sections to answer your question, read from the bottom up if that helps

So what did UTV bid?

£75 and a round of Guinness for the Ulster squad every time they win, with two rounds if they beat a Welsh team and a bottle of Black Bush every time the ref gives a wrong decision in favour of Ulster.

Age: 54.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Nice of you to pick the week they show what was essentially a dead rubber

https://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1049/language/eng/

So the best you could find for 'way above' was a 4% increase in one week?

Top stuff.

Picking the first week I saw yeah it was the best I could do

marty2086 wrote:
Picking the first week I saw yeah it was the best I could do

My mistake, I'd given you the credit of doing some research. Instead, you picked one week that didn't support your claim and took that to support your claim and to present it as the norm.

That's some chutzpah.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Picking the first week I saw yeah it was the best I could do

My mistake, I'd given you the credit of doing some research. Instead, you picked one week that didn't support your claim and took that to support your claim and to present it as the norm.

That's some chutzpah.

And maybe some take things too literally

marty2086 wrote:

And maybe some take things too literally

Ah, the old 'don't take too literally the words I deliberately choose to make my point' wriggle.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And maybe some take things too literally

Ah, the old 'don't take too literally the words I deliberately choose to make my point' wriggle.

Its called hyperbole, I could always be proven wrong then disappear and then reappear a week later and try arguing the same points over like some do

marty2086 wrote:
Its called hyperbole, I could always be proven wrong then disappear and then reappear a week later and try arguing the same points over like some do

You could do. But if that was a dig at me, you've got that wrong too.

Hyperbole? Too literally?

If you weren't a coward, you'd just write 'I got that wrong', but we've been here before with you.

Listen up, if you want revert to name calling go to the play ground

marty2086 wrote:Listen up, if you want revert to name calling go to the play ground

You took me to the play ground through the way you write and comprehend.

Please up your game.

BBC Wales/S4C bid for all the Welsh matches of the four teams - that's more than any other TV station.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Listen up, if you want revert to name calling go to the play ground

You took me to the play ground through the way you write and comprehend.

Please up your game.

Don't like how I write don't read it but that's no excuse for what is essentially childish bullying tactics

marty2086 wrote:
Don't like how I write don't read it but that's no excuse for what is essentially childish bullying tactics

Pointing out your errors in your snide, inaccurate, stupid responses to me is not bullying.

It's kicking away the puppy snapping at my ankles whilst he slides in a puddle of his own pee.

Is there any point in engaging with such an arrogant and venomous character such as PhilBB? It is a waste of time to even talk to such people. They are more interested in listening to themselves than actually having a discussion or debate. Other people can actually discuss these things in a civil manner.

Ignoring him might encourage him to crawl back to Gwlad and serve his own puffed up "journalist" career there.

How much do you think theyd pay to broadcast you lot squabbling?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there any point in engaging with such an arrogant and venomous character such as PhilBB? It is a waste of time to even talk to such people. They are more interested in listening to themselves than actually having a discussion or debate. Other people can actually discuss these things in a civil manner.

Ignoring him might encourage him to crawl back to Gwlad and serve his own puffed up "journalist" career there.

With his inability to comprehend logic, context and the big picture and his abusive nature I think hes making a pitch for a job at the Sun or Fail. With his condescending nature its likely the latter

marty2086 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there any point in engaging with such an arrogant and venomous character such as PhilBB? It is a waste of time to even talk to such people. They are more interested in listening to themselves than actually having a discussion or debate. Other people can actually discuss these things in a civil manner.

Ignoring him might encourage him to crawl back to Gwlad and serve his own puffed up "journalist" career there.

With his inability to comprehend logic, context and the big picture and his abusive nature I think hes making a pitch for a job at the Sun or Fail. With his condescending nature its likely the latter

So don't engage with him and he might move on. Or he will try to be even more provocative and get himself banned. Either way, not engaging with him will starve him of the attention he craves.

The TV rights to the PRO12 were negotiated first for a primary broadcaster i.e. a broadcaster who could televise matches in the four relevant territories - Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland.

The reported deal was worth 20m over four years.  It gave Sky primary rights on which matches it wanted to televise in Wales, Scotland or Ireland.   Up to a maximum of 30 matches per season, not including the playoffs.

This was negotiated first.

The next biggest deal was with BBC Wales, in partnership with S4C for whom BBC Wales is contractually obliged to provide a certain number of hours of programming each year.    The combined annual budget of BBC Wales/S4c is in the order of 160m.   The Welsh TV territory covers four teams.   BBC Wales want to cover all the home games of the Welsh teams that were not selected exclusively by Sky.  (Secondary rights on some matches allow for co-broadcasting with a terrestrial partner in the four TV territories).

BBC Wales/S4C bid for all the Welsh matches of the four teams and Celtic Rugby negotiated a price based on what they wanted.   As can be seen from this season's schedule, BBC Wales/S4C have more matches than any other terrestrial broadcaster since they were willing to pay for them.

In the Republic of Ireland TV territory, there are three teams.  RTE, the national public service broadcaster, chose to opt out from the rights once Sky announced they had got the primary rights.   It was left to TV3 and to TG4, minor stations at the time with relatively small spending budgets to pitch if they wanted to.  Tv3 chose not to.  TG4, as a niche Irish language channel, chose to continue showing the Irish team matches that Sky were not broadcasting.   They bid for these matches.   Their annual budget is around 40m - about 25% of the Welsh budget.   Their price is 1m approx.

BBC Alba is also a small budget station, with two teams to cover, with their selection restricted to what remained after Sky had made their pick.

BBC Northern Ireland has one team in its broadcast territory with on average 9 regular season games to show.   Their budget and price reflects the market accordingly.  (Ulster TV does not do rugby.)

BBC Wales/S4C with their much bigger annual budget, and greater amount of teams will always be the bigger terrestrial player, until such time as the market changes and another competitor emerges.

The TV market in Ireland has changed since the last TV rights were negotiated  and the value and viewership (satellite and terrestrial) has increased across the four TV territories.  BBC is the dominant terrestrial force in three of them.

As Anayi remarked in his BBC Radio Five interview, the PRO12 will be looking for a bigger number the next time.

As a postscript, it was reported previously in media that the Welsh teams benefit proportionately from the overall amount that the terrestrial TV deals bring in.  Thus, if BBC Wales deal brings in 3 times as much as other stations, then the WRU gets a proportionate portion of these overall monies.   The Sky monies are distributed by number of teams per union.

Pot Hale wrote:The TV rights to the PRO12 were negotiated first for a primary broadcaster i.e. a broadcaster who could televise matches in the four relevant territories - Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland.

The reported deal was worth 20m over four years.  It gave Sky primary rights on which matches it wanted to televise in Wales, Scotland or Ireland.   Up to a maximum of 30 matches per season, not including the playoffs.

This was negotiated first.

The next biggest deal was with BBC Wales, in partnership with S4C for whom BBC Wales is contractually obliged to provide a certain number of hours of programming each year.    The combined annual budget of BBC Wales/S4c is in the order of 160m.   The Welsh TV territory covers four teams.   BBC Wales want to cover all the home games of the Welsh teams that were not selected exclusively by Sky.  (Secondary rights on some matches allow for co-broadcasting with a terrestrial partner in the four TV territories).

BBC Wales/S4C bid for all the Welsh matches of the four teams and Celtic Rugby negotiated a price based on what they wanted.   As can be seen from this season's schedule, BBC Wales/S4C have more matches than any other terrestrial broadcaster since they were willing to pay for them.

In the Republic of Ireland TV territory, there are three teams.  RTE, the national public service broadcaster, chose to opt out from the rights once Sky announced they had got the primary rights.   It was left to TV3 and to TG4, minor stations at the time with relatively small spending budgets to pitch if they wanted to.  Tv3 chose not to.  TG4, as a niche Irish language channel, chose to continue showing the Irish team matches that Sky were not broadcasting.   They bid for these matches.   Their annual budget is around 40m - about 25% of the Welsh budget.   Their price is 1m approx.

BBC Alba is also a small budget station, with two teams to cover, with their selection restricted to what remained after Sky had made their pick.

BBC Northern Ireland has one team in its broadcast territory with on average 9 regular season games to show.   Their budget and price reflects the market accordingly.  (Ulster TV does not do rugby.)

BBC Wales/S4C with their much bigger annual budget, and greater amount of teams will always be the bigger terrestrial player, until such time as the market changes and another competitor emerges.

The TV market in Ireland has changed since the last TV rights were negotiated  and the value and viewership (satellite and terrestrial) has increased across the four TV territories.  BBC is the dominant terrestrial force in three of them.

As Anayi remarked in his BBC Radio Five interview, the PRO12 will be looking for a bigger number the next time.

As a postscript, it was reported previously in media that the Welsh teams benefit proportionately from the overall amount that the terrestrial TV deals bring in.  Thus, if BBC Wales deal brings in 3 times as much as other stations, then the WRU gets a proportionate portion of these overall monies.   The Sky monies are distributed by number of teams per union.

PH, isn't part of the BBC Wales deal that if for instance Sky get match Leinster v Ospreys the opposite match has to have the option of BBC  lWales covering it? Or is that only for Regions matches against each other, I seem to remember reading something like that a while ago.