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Brook - A Big What If, but What If?

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Post by Rowley on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:14 pm

Not the most original of threads as I suspect we have posed the question before, particularly around the time Brits go into fights as underdogs. However, given the fight at the weekend this seems an apposite time to pose the question again, namely was Kell Brook to do the unexpected and beat Golovkin how would it rank in terms of the all-time best wins by British fighters?

My own instinct without giving it mountains of thought is it must surely rank pretty highly. In its pros column it seemingly has plenty to commend it. Firstly Kell is skipping two weights, without a warm up to go face to face with the generally accepted best middleweight in the world, a fighter who is also considered by most to be in the top five P4P currently. He is also unbeaten and whilst he is no spring chicken thus far he has shown no signs of slowing down or regressing. I think it would be fair to say most would consider him to be at his peak.

It should also not be forgotten that skipping from welter to middle and going straight into a title shot is pretty unusual and was even in the days prior to the existence of the light middleweight division. Suspect I am doing a couple of fighters a gross disservice, but a bit of digging suggests only Ryan, Walker, Griffiths and Napoles have attempted to do likewise. Pretty exalted company to be keeping and obviously one heck of an achievement if he pulls it off.

Also whilst Brook has looked the part at welter, the truth remains that Shawn Porter aside his record is pretty lacking in depth. Seems fair to say the gap in class between the likes of Dan, Bizier and Gavin and Golovkin is of Grand Canyon proportions. Putting aside the difference in weight think it is reasonable to say Brook has not faced anywhere near the kind of opponents or quality to prepare him for what he will face Saturday night.

In the negative column against the win there is not really too much. Whilst he has looked the absolute real deal in what he has done so far the argument that Golovkin has not really fought anyone of genuine top tier ability is one that does have some validity. The reason for this are hopefully too tedious and thoroughly debated to warrant revisiting here, but whatever the reason the statement does have some degree of merit. My own view though is it would be harsh, was Kell to get the win, to suggest Golovkin was a hype job or overrated. His amateur record is enough to suggest he is not a product of fortunate or well-chosen matchmaking, but his record is the result of genuine talent. Whilst he has not had the likes of Hagler or Hopkins to prove his worth against he has made a lot of solid enough fighters look remarkably ordinary.

The only other possible negative against the win is that Kell has home advantage. One can argue how much of an advantage this represents, but I suspect most would agree it represents one to some degree. He has no travel or jet lag to contend with, can live and train in familiar surroundings and come fight night will have a hugely partisan crowd behind him. As Kostya Tszyu and Lucien Bute found out to their detriment a partisan British crowd can make quite a racket and an intimidating atmosphere. There also remains the possibility, already floated elsewhere, that in coming to the UK just six days before the fight Golovkin has made something of a miscalculation.

There have been some notable wins by Brits over the years. Honeyghan against Curry surely deserves a mention (contain yourself Truss) and has the advantage of being away from home. The same can be said of Stracey against Napoles. Whilst Napoles was probably slipping a bit, he went into the lion’s den in Mexico City to achieve his win. Going back a good few years Peerless Jim Driscoll handing the brilliant Abe Attell a boxing lesson was a terrific win, albeit in a non-title affair. The aforementioned Hatton Tszyu remains a fantastic win, as does the tragic but no less stunning win by Benn over McClelland. There are surely countless others that warrant a mention and putting them in order is probably a task for someone of far greater patience than myself.

Whilst I don’t think Kell will get the win, should I be wrong I think there has to be an argument that Kell’s achievement would rank right alongside any of those mentioned above and personally I think there is an argument to be made it might just sit on top of the pile. What does anybody else think?



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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:24 pm

How high would it rank? Up there with Honeyghan Curry I would have thought would it surpass that win it might indeed but long way to go yet

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:28 pm

Honey did it away from home but same division Kell at home but jumping two categories so who knows

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Post by Atila on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:35 pm

No doubt it would be an excellent win, but still behind Turpin beating Robinson for me.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:38 pm

Interesting thread and it's a tough one......

First of all will he be a great ??.....Common sense says that Brook should become a great fighter if he pulls off a miracle win.....Number 1 welter to number 1 middle....

BUT........Problem is Golovkin hasn't fought a top calibre opposition so whilst we all think he's the very top grade...Chances are he'll be "overrated" by the non forgiving fans as soon as he loses.....Let's face it... if Brook does win GGG will have been overrated.....I had Brook beating the marauding but not too talented Porter by one round.....This "Schooling" Hearn talks about I've yet to see..

Also is GGG and Porter enough really to make you great.......

Should he win Brook will need a few defences to hop over the great line.....But he won't have to do much......

As regards the win...........It'll be the best win by a Brit I can remember.....Curry was a great win for Lloyd but very few bought into it Stateside because Curry looked like s**t....

Everyone will buy Brook though..........Hope he wins....I'll be watching....

But there is more chance of seeing a Tsunami on the moon...


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 6:39 pm

Be right up there with any of the fights Jeff mentions but a notch behind Turpin Robinson as you say which remains (probably for all time) the greatest British upset

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Post by 3fingers on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:48 pm

Its not up for debate. he is not going to win. He edges speed, has equal timing, and better reflexes. The power, accuracy, strength, footwork, patience, chin and determination will make brooke wilt mentally, then physically.

Happy to listen/debate how brooke can win

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Post by Pedro147 on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 10:16 pm

How do people rate Glenn Catley's win over Beyer? Even now he never gets much a mention on boards or on TV.

He had no problem travelling and despite not being an elite fighter he had some good wins but the Beyer win must be right up there with great wins considering the expectation of Catley winning going into the fight?

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Post by 3fingers on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 11:28 pm

Good win, not great. Beyer, Woodall and Catley were all around the same level - 'Tier 3/4 world champions'. No disrespect intended.

You have:
Tier 1 Champions - Ali, Robinson, Mayweather etc.

Tier 2 Champions - Benn, Gatti, Canelo etc

...then you have Tier 3/4 Champions.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 8:14 am

This would have to be up there with one of the best wins by a British fighter

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 9:20 am

3fingers wrote:Good win, not great. Beyer, Woodall and Catley were all around the same level - 'Tier 3/4 world champions'. No disrespect intended.

You have:
Tier 1 Champions - Ali, Robinson, Mayweather etc.

Tier 2 Champions - Benn, Gatti, Canelo etc

...then you have Tier 3/4 Champions.

Like the idea of Tiers but I think you'll need more than four.......Benn and Gatti in a second tier ???.....

Canelo is higher than them two for me..........Trout, Lara and Cotto takes care of that......

If Ali, Robbo and Mayweather and all the very cream go in Tier 1.....Where do we put Curry, Rosario, Camacho and Mccallum ?

With Gatti and Benn ??

Benn v McClellan was an excellent win for Benn he showed a lot of heart that night but sadly he couldn't really enjoy the moment....

.....But personally I think Brook's win over G would rate much higher than Benn v McClellan as Kronk did the old Mugabi trick with Gerald.....After Gerald lost a couple early they took a decision to feed him with guys that stayed right in front of him........Jackson and Mugabi being good examples.......(Golovkin has shown he can deal with different styles)....Hard to really know how good McClellan was........Jackson was his best win and he was humiliated by Graham......Could almost have had three 10-8s until the lottery win...........As for Mugabi he was ordinary but had a punch and was well gone by the time McClellan beat him.....Gave up on Mugabi when I saw him struggle with Hard rock Green...........Though he did better against Marv than I expected......(We all expected)...

Golovkin is a better fighter than McClellan and Kosta........Another win I rate highly too for Hatton.


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Post by milkyboy on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 9:45 am

It's a tricky one. Turpin Robinson is the benchmark... and a hell of a benchmark. For me it would be the biggest shock I've witnessed in terms of a british fighter winning a world title in my lifetime.... along with napoles Stracey... I rated honeyghan so although I expected Curry to win I wasn't shocked.

The stracey win gets downgraded retrospectively by the assumption that stracey was never that great and that napoles was past it and retired immediately. Likewise Mcguigan caught pedrosa at the end of his career (he lost his next fight and retired) and hatton with Tszyu (never fought again). Timing was everything. These are things that are easier to see retrospectively.

Golovkin has been hugely dominant but hasn't beaten any fighters of any great esteem... should Brook pull this off, there is the potential for  GGG to be labelled a flat-track bully and for the win to be downgraded. It would depend on what both go on to achieve afterwards.

In other words, these things normally get a clearer assessment at the end of fighters careers, so it will be too early to tell. At face value though, knowing what we know about both fighters currently... add in the weight... and its potentially a bigger achievement than all of them.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 2:11 pm

Yes...Mickey Duff seemed to be an expert at seeing opportunities...........Got Napoles and Curry at the right time.....

Caught a ring rusty and fading Hagler with Mugabi.....Didn't quite come off..

Good cornerman too.............His work in Honey and Mugabi's corner was exceptional....Eddie Futch and Steward are others who calmed fighters down and focused them..even Adam Booth who is the best over here for me........Much prefer a cool voice than a screamer like Angelo Dundee......Last thing a stressed fighter needs to hear is stress in the corner..

Biggest upset...................Fitz beating Corbett needs to be up there......

My favorite fight and great bit of captured history

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