England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

I don't think Haskell is doing much differently. The big difference is he's been trusted over a run of games. Previously he'd have a good game, then an OK one, and immediately he's dropped for a crocked Moody or powder puff Wood, or someone else clearly without his physical attributes.

He was also held back by the idiotic and depressingly predictable English response to him being somewhat of an extrovert (yes, and a tool) and this Brand Hask idea.

If Jones has done anything I'd suggest it's to put some trust in him and clearly ignore totally irrelevant bilge like whether doing a few videos and some godawful 'banter' (an awful term) is consistent with the team's supposed 'culture'.

Would also say we really don't have a like for like replacement for him, but I'd be tempted to Hughes there.

Hood83 wrote:Would also say we really don't have a like for like replacement for him, but I'd be tempted to Hughes there.

I think the only question mark would be work rate. Haskell does work very hard. I get the impression that Hughes, while very powerful (and good at turnovers etc) drifts in and out of games

A replacement for Haskell to smash the breakdown would be Carl Fearns. He would probably need to raise fitness levels but if he achieved that, would then fulfil that specific role with aplomb.

lostinwales wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Would also say we really don't have a like for like replacement for him, but I'd be tempted to Hughes there.

I think the only question mark would be work rate. Haskell does work very hard. I get the impression that Hughes, while very powerful (and good at turnovers etc) drifts in and out of games

Yeah I think that's a fair point

Recwatcher16 wrote:A replacement for Haskell to smash the breakdown would be Carl Fearns. He would probably need to raise fitness levels but if he achieved that, would then fulfil that specific role with aplomb.

Won't be picked whilst playing in France though. Maybe after he joins Tigers next season.

Agree on the Hughes point. Wasps are using him as an impact sub at the minute. He can make a huge impact but seemingly not for 80 minutes.

Clifford is already in the squad so is highly thought of. Mike Williams at Tigers can certainly bring the physicality but won't attack the breakdown as much but he will be another lineout option.

How old is Carl Fearns? Clifford was injured against Chiefs (not sure how serious).
I am sure that in another year they would have sorted out the Underhill situation - but for now EJ should really just be looking at that back-up Wasps BR of Thompson, Sam Jones and find out if Dai Youngs lad wants to play for England.....(suspect I know the answer to that one).

Thoughts from the weekend for England -
That performance from LCD on the weekend demonstrates what he can bring to the England squad.
Still a lot of competition from George and Taylor is the up and coming from Saxons squad.
Care and Clifford are at risk of being dropped.
Ben Teo was apparently very impressive in the game against Gloucester - anyone see him in the last game?
Eastmond got a run out and did well for Wasps in a game that was a bit of a cricket score and Daly got a brace of tries.
Ben Youngs shows a bit of his old self by sniping round the fringes of the Falcons defence.
Ford also looks to have his mojo back but which no.9 would he best combine with?

I am watching the highlights tonight but I hope that Brown came through that game unscathed - Any news on when Farrell will be back and playing for Sarries? Lozowski looks to be doing very well but I would like to see Faz get a bit of gametime before coming back into the EPS.

propdavid_london wrote:How old is Carl Fearns?  Clifford was injured against Chiefs (not sure how serious).
I am sure that in another year they would have sorted out the Underhill situation - but for now EJ should really just be looking at that back-up Wasps BR of Thompson, Sam Jones and find out if Dai Youngs lad wants to play for England.....(suspect I know the answer to that one).

He has played for Wales U20s against France so cannot qualify for England.

Cheers LT - thought that's where his loyalties lay - Its more of a surprise that France doesn't have an A-side.

From a Quins perspective I'd be surprised if any other then Robshaw and Briwn get picked

Given Clifford has been in and around the squad for (nearly?) all of Jones games I'd be surprised he was left out now with Haskells injury. It's him, Harrison, Hughes and Itoje vying for that back row spot. Him and Hughes offer the best bench option too.

True, but he's having a real case of second season syndrome at the moment. Just seems to really struggle to effect games from 8 this season, I think it's a bit early for him, he needs to add a bit more weight to his frame and then he'll be class.

Reminds me a bit of Gaskell who was highly rated through all age grades, went straight into the Sale 1st team but has only now really started to kick on and look quality at Wasps.

True. I'm maybe seeing this from a bit too much of an ooutsiders perspective but how much of it is due to the changes in coaching? Would being back under the wing of Jones help a bit?

From the weekends highlights programme it looked like James Chisholm makes more of an impact at the moment.
I guess this is also the 1st season that Quins might be more dependent on Clifford starting rather than coming off the bench! In any event Clifford needs to up his game if he wants to push for EJs selection.

According to Flatman - Slade and LCD bossed that particular game - so for me that can only be good for England competition.

Watching some of those Wade tries against Bristol really made me think about if there is a spot for him in the EPS - what he brings to the team is something that no one else really has at the moment - but does that make up for his perceived fragility in defence?
I don't know if anyone questions his commitment, but his positioning is sometimes out. Would he get a chance in the upcoming Nov series?
Watson is the incumbent, Rokko looks to be firing well, Yard is average in a quins side lacking confidence, Nowell is out injured as is May. Ashton is out of the picture. It could be time to introduce Wade to top tier internationals - if EJs takes the risk.

propdavid_london wrote:From the weekends highlights programme it looked like James Chisholm makes more of an impact at the moment.  
I guess this is also the 1st season that Quins might be more dependent on Clifford starting rather than coming off the bench! In any event Clifford needs to up his game if he wants to push for EJs selection.

According to Flatman - Slade and LCD bossed that particular game - so for me that can only be good for England competition.

Watching some of those Wade tries against Bristol really made me think about if there is a spot for him in the EPS - what he brings to the team is something that no one else really has at the moment - but does that make up for his perceived fragility in defence?  
I don't know if anyone questions his commitment, but his positioning is sometimes out.  Would he get a chance in the upcoming Nov series?  
Watson is the incumbent, Rokko looks to be firing well, Yard is average in a quins side lacking confidence, Nowell is out injured as is May.  Ashton is out of the picture.  It could be time to introduce Wade to top tier internationals - if EJs takes the risk.

Would seem that Roko will be next in line. The other big question is fullback. Will Brown be up to speed by the time the AI come up? Would that mean more chances for Goode to show his lack of international quality....

A back 3 containing Goode and Wade might be one step too far as far as defense goes, and might actively work against Wade being picked.

There are other options for EJ to look at though!
I am not sure when EJ will pick his squad - but there are 5 top level games for Quins before 22nd Oct against Edinburgh, Stade Francais, Saints, Wasps and Sarries. (Crazy run of games for Quins)
If you come through those games unscathed and will good to solid performances then I suspect you will still be in EJs consideration.

Other options are the long term suggestion of moving Watson to FB. Hammersly and Haley are held in high regard, with Haley doing well on the Saxons before injury.

Wade may well get his chance - If he doesn't get one soon then it might be a case of never for him!

I would definitely consider Haley, but he's out with the Saxons injury still isn't he? Hammersely I don't get, overall game doesn't look good enough. A much lesser version of Goode (who does deservce a chance under Jones).

I've heard more than I have seen about Hammersly. Although on the occasions Ive seen a televised match he has looked pretty solid and excellent on the counter. Haley though I was extremely impressed with though and one to watch - that's a shame if he is still out though ( I guess I haven't seen him for Sale yet).
Goode obviously offers something or else he wouldn't be in the squad....Good eye for a gap and good boot on him.
Chris Pennel is out of the picture also being injured and not played yet as far as I am aware.

Back of my mind though is that for FBs you don't always need that 'magic man'. What you need is someone who is a rock in defence, excellent positionally and has a big boot for clearance. If needed has the pace to hit the line and take it into traffic if needed.
Basically Brown (in form). But others like that that spring to mind are Percy Montgomery too.

propdavid_london wrote:From the weekends highlights programme it looked like James Chisholm makes more of an impact at the moment.  
I guess this is also the 1st season that Quins might be more dependent on Clifford starting rather than coming off the bench! In any event Clifford needs to up his game if he wants to push for EJs selection.

I was wondering about Baby Chis. Sounds like he made a big impact, and in physical terms he's similar to Underhill, albeit without quite the same instinct for the breakdown. Eddie hasn't namechecked him, but he did tour with the Saxons. Doesn't play 7 that often, though.#

Clifford just seems a bit lost, which is a real shame given his talent. I think the Quins pack has a big problem at lock, where Horwill just doesn't seem to gel with the hookers and other locks, and the rest of our locking stock is very inexperienced. I think that puts more of a burden on the back row and Clifford hasn't got the freedom to play the way he can. Should ultimately be good experience for him - if he can learn to control the game like Easter it will make him much more of an all court player.

That's the thing though - not just 2nd rows - but the lack of a Nick Easter to do a lot of the gnarly stuff means that Clifford isn't getting the reviews he's had in the past. Perhaps the England setup will give him the freedom to roam a little bit more - but in the back of my mind I see Clifford as another younger and slightly more skilful Tom Wood - he's another one of those rangy, very fast back rowers (favoured by bomber) and sometimes you just need a brute (a la Hask). Or a Pocock.

I would guess in the backrow Vunipola and Robshaw would be first choices.  Haskell in his current re-incarnation will be missed.  Interestingly there are a number of heavy weight choices (e.g. Hughes) but though I have not seen much of the AP this season I have been quite impressed with Sam Jones and Guy Thompson of Wasps and having a lighter but more dynamic backrow.

Hughes would certainly give more power and weight and was good in the tight, but should England try to become more dynamic?

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Hammersley is nowhere near ready IMO.

He is a silky gliding runner when he gets the chance but im not sure the rest of his game is good enough...especially his kicking which is so frustrating!

He needs to improve to be considered, and we have a couple of others coming through who look better!

The back row ultimately depends on where Jones wants to take England.

He's made it quite clear he wants us to have a big aggressive pack. We showed in Aus that it can win big games already, but still have lots of developing to do..ie bringing more of an attacking game.

Im not sure you'll see him pushing for a smaller dynamic pack anytime soon. It'll be much of the same, with a suffocating brutal defence, - but with more emphasis on using the ball better when we have it.

Dare I say a team that resembles that of the '03 era.

Unless Nowell actually start playing at fullback soon or stocks in this position are getting slightly old and tired. If Brown get injured/ fails to recover form, who is there? Goode is a given, but he would need back if he was to be first choice. Foden looks out of the picture now. I agree that Hammersley isn't there yet, he just doesn't seem a good fit for England at the moment. I also agree with the others who have mentioned Haley, they bloke is a talent and I've said before that I believe he will be England first choice in the not massively distant future. He is however, injured. I wouldn't say it is a cause for worry yet, but there are clouds on that particular horizon.

Not sure who the tree pulling number 6's are anymore, we appear to have gone in an entirely different direction with Haskell being somewhat of a throwback.

To me the solution would be to have Itoje there, for such a tall man his work on the deck is excellent. Would he do enough to negate the need for a proper 7? I'm not sure.

What about Harrison. He got a shock in the brief Oz appearance...he knows what is required now. Could he make it?

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Harrison. He got a shock in the brief Oz appearance...he knows what is required now. Could he make it?

If he's 'tearing up trees' at the moment he might. I am not sure he is. But long term he has as much chance as anyone to get established.

How about:

4 Itoje
5 Kruis
7 Launchbury

Or as ive heard elsewhere...Sam Jones at Wasps who has pretty much been playing Haskells role very well in his absence.

I know everyone likes to write off Lawes but in the 3rd test who did EJ bring on to increase the physicality in defense that was missing with Haskell's absence? Unless I'm mistaken didn't Lawes see more action in Aus than Launchbury? If Itoje does start at 6 then fitness and form permitting then I think there is more chance of Lawes starting alongside Kruis (if fit) in the second row. Given a simple (Haskell-esq) game plan, basically told to tackle anything that moves.

I agree overall that Launchbury is the better player of the two but EJ will pick the best 15 players that he feels will fit best together to achieve his gameplan and get the result, and not just select the best 15 individual players available and hope they mold into a team. Once Haskell is back then Lawes would probably become 4th choice lock again.


GF - Lauchbury at 7? I know he played 6 when he first broke into the Wasps first 15 but I think he's an out and out second row now. Does he have the pace to play in the backrow at international level? Not convinced.

I'd take Lawes as a lock tbh.

He has the experience of the Int game, is quick and physical and people seem to ignore just how good his offloads are, I can think of three tries for England where he's thrown a tough offload while drawing the defenders and taking a hit. Something our centres often struggle to do. Everyone judges him on that one stint at 6 which was poor.

I'd probably have a pack of 4. Launchbury 5. Kruis 6. Itoje 19. Lawes

Lawes showed impressive physicality vs Sarries so I would agree with that B91212.

As a short term solution Itoje if stays fit will probably move to 6.

Shame really we've got a decent locks but lack any real 7. Even Haskell isn't a proper 7.

As for FB, I hope Goode can stake his claim at full back because he's consistently been one of the best FBs at club level in the last few years. He has such a good rugby brain.

I know international level is different but if Haskell can be improved there's hope for others.

B91212 wrote:I know everyone likes to write off Lawes but in the 3rd test who did EJ bring on to increase the physicality in defense that was missing with Haskell's absence? Unless I'm mistaken didn't Lawes see more action in Aus than Launchbury? If Itoje does start at 6 then fitness and form permitting then I think there is more chance of Lawes starting alongside Kruis (if fit) in the second row. Given a simple (Haskell-esq) game plan, basically told to tackle anything that moves.

I agree overall that Launchbury is the better player of the two but EJ will pick the best 15 players that he feels will fit best together to achieve his gameplan and get the result, and not just select the best 15 individual players available and hope they mold into a team. Once Haskell is back then Lawes would probably become 4th choice lock again.


GF - Lauchbury at 7? I know he played 6 when he first broke into the Wasps first 15 but I think he's an out and out second row now. Does he have the pace to play in the backrow at international level? Not convinced.

Ah I was just having a laugh and putting a big lump in at 7 like Jones did with Haskell. Its not something I would genuinely consider as he's a lock only now.

I still cant help thinking Hughes will be in the thinking for that role....

What about Ewers??

Ewers needs to establish himself for the Chiefs as he seems to have had niggling injuries for the last season and a bit.  If fit he is in the mix.  Also Armand - per his stats he is 6' 3" and 18St +, so not a lightweight.  Is Tom Wood completely out of the picture at 6?  What Eddie Jones seems to be able to do is give a clear game plan to a player which enables them to thrive - Haskell is the main beneficiary, but Hartley would also fall into that category.

I think we are lucky to have 4 genuine international class second rows, with 2 or 3 others who could do a job in Attwood, Lees, Pattinson, etc.

We are lacking a world class 7 - Haskell does a good job with a simple game plan, but I don't think is the long term solution if England want to expand their game.  As a short term solution Robshaw can play their, but the same issues arise - they are basically tackling machines.

I am a bit more optimistic about 6 and think we have a few viable options there.  My only concern would be that a non specialist 6 is found out as Lawes was in his awful game against Wales.

Wood I believe was told by EJ that he was distinctly average - that's not something that makes me think that he is even in contention.

Who are you thinking of as the long term no.6's nipnip?

Ouch!!

Not pulling punches there!

I think in terms of beating NZ we should refer back to 2002

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFctRUpALko

We need a real back row WITH PACE and a back line that scores TRYS

I think you mean a TEAM with power, pace and skill and scores tries.

beshocked wrote:As for FB, I hope Goode can stake his claim at full back because he's consistently been one of the best FBs at club level in the last few years. He has such a good rugby brain.

I agree he deserves another go but worry about the balance of the backs as Goode's a playmaker when we already have Ford and Farrell in the backline. Ideally a flyer would be a better fit although none are putting their hand up at the moment.

yappysnap wrote:I'd take Lawes as a lock tbh.

He has the experience of the Int game, is quick and physical and people seem to ignore just how good his offloads are, I can think of three tries for England where he's thrown a tough offload while drawing the defenders and taking a hit. Something our centres often struggle to do. Everyone judges him on that one stint at 6 which was poor.

I'd probably have a pack of 4. Launchbury 5. Kruis 6. Itoje 19. Lawes

Listening to Lawes on the BT rugby podcast earlier he stated that EJ has told him to work on his carrying ability among other things.

[quote="B91212"]

beshocked wrote:As for FB, I hope Goode can stake his claim at full back because he's consistently been one of the best FBs at club level in the last few years. He has such a good rugby brain.

I agree he deserves another go but worry about the balance of the backs as Goode's a playmaker when we already have Ford and Farrell in the backline. Ideally more of a flyer type would be a better fit at 15 although none are putting their hand up at the moment.

Unless Jones considers moving Watson back to full back, but with both May and Nowell missing 2 new wings may be a bit of a push.

B91212 I think your point exposes our weakness in the centres.

Need to play Farrell at centre to make up for it.

Similar with calls for Itoje in the backrow.

The weaknesses at 7 and 12 are still there.

As for full back no one has managed to challenge either Brown or Goode as the full back choices.

Preferably I'd play someone with more guile in the centres than Farrell but not as if there's anyone screaming to be England's 12.

Was hoping H.Mallinder would be getting gametime for Saints but his own father doesn't seem to rate him.

I like Brown, he has his strengths but too often I think he lacks guile, Goode has guile but not perhaps the raw physicality of Brown but if you had a bruiser in at 12, Goode could fit in nicely.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unless Jones considers moving Watson back to full back, but with both May and Nowell missing 2 new wings may be a bit of a push.

Well, any replacement wings are unlikely to be completely new - having been in the environment. I am thinking Yarde and Roko here.

To be fair, when fit and on form both Joseph and Ford are very quick and have a good step. Goode and Farrel are both slower but bring other bits to the backline. Throw in Roko and Watson and that's a pretty good backline.

Wouldn't want it facing SA though, Goode's weakness under the high ball along side Roko's. With the general lack of physicality in that backline could be a disaster.

Sadly our only physical backs are Manu who's out of form and Burrel who's injured.

Found this nice little highlight of BrownvGoode from last season https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mnS3VC4HKZo

Goode should never start another England game barring injury disaster

Too slow, too weak, and his little jink jink SPLAT routine makes me want to put my foot through the TV every time I see it at international level

propdavid_london wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unless Jones considers moving Watson back to full back, but with both May and Nowell missing 2 new wings may be a bit of a push.

Well, any replacement wings are unlikely to be completely new - having been in the environment.  I am thinking Yarde and Roko here.  

New ish to Jones though. Think Rokoduguni is still stuck on that one NZ cap isn't he?

It would seem that Roko should be next in line. He's on great form and has been around the team for a while.

I suspect that we will end up with Goode as FB by default, because it feels like too soon for Brown to be considered after his illness etc, and Haley is out. Who knows, Goode might surprise us all, but we have been here far too many times.

So, according to Quins website - Clifford is having surgery on his ankle and is out for up to 10wks.
With Hask out our back row options are narrowing slightly.