NZ v Ireland, Chicago, 4 November 2016

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IRELAND v NEW ZEALAND
5 November 2016
15:00 CDT / 20:00 GMT
Soldier Field, Chicago, USA

Live on eir Sport and BT Sport

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant Referees: Luke Pearce (England), Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO: Rowan Kitt (England)

A. Head to Head

28 Played 28
0 Won 27
1 Drawn 1
27 Lost 0
310 Points 812

B. Recent Form

24 November 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
22 – 24 to New Zealand

23 June 2012
Waikato Stadium, Hamilton
60 – 0 to New Zealand

16 June 2012
Rugby League Park, Christchurch
22 – 19 to New Zealand

9 June 2012
Eden Park, Auckland
42 – 10 to New Zealand

20 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
18 – 38 to New Zealand

C. Teams


NEW ZEALAND 

1. Joe Moody
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Patrick Tuipulotu
5. Jerome Kaino
6. Liam Squire
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read – captain
9. Aaron Smith
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. George Moala
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Ofa Tu’ungafasi
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Scott Barrett
20. Ardie Savea
21. TJ Perenara
22. Aaron Cruden
23. Malakai Fekitoa


IRELAND

1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Furlong
4 Ryan
5 Toner
6 Stander
7 Murphy
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Henshaw
13 Payne
14 Trimble
15 Kearney
16 Cronin
17 Healy
18 Bealham
19 Dillane
20 van der Flier
21 Marmion
22 Carbery
23 Ringrose

munkian wrote:Sexton getting injured is standard isn't it ?

Where did Kearney find his form from ?

Yeah it is though he does often play more than 60 minutes or whatever it was.

Kearney was good because the game plan suited him. Lots of box kicks by Ireland but not that many kicks to him. Thats the beauty of Schmidt, he gets his teams to play to their strengths rather than looking for square peg solutions to round hole problems.

rapidsnowman wrote:If Ireland had been without their 2 best locks, it wouldn't have had a mention win, lose or draw.

Arguably they were without one of them in Henderson.

Yeah plus we were without arguably our two best backrow players in POM and SOB and lost another one early in the game and still bossed the AB pack.

munkian wrote:Sexton getting injured is standard isn't it ?

Where did Kearney find this form from ?

He scented the ABs were close when the Irish coaches let him out of his cage. They only took his face mask off right before exiting the tunnel.

Nice article from the NZ Herald of all places with a good interview from Grant Fox at the bottom. Its worth a listen.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11743128

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah plus we were without arguably our two best backrow players in POM and SOB and lost another one early in the game and still bossed the AB pack.

How does POM get back in? I thought Stander and Heaslip were immense.

Heaslip has won just about everything now, bar a World Cup.

rapidsnowman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah plus we were without arguably our two best backrow players in POM and SOB and lost another one early in the game and still bossed the AB pack.

How does POM get back in? I thought Stander and Heaslip were immense.

Heaslip has won just about everything now, bar a World Cup.

Not sure he'll still be around when we lift it in 2019 sadly.

Although he is a freak of nature when it comes to fitness so maybe...

rapidsnowman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah plus we were without arguably our two best backrow players in POM and SOB and lost another one early in the game and still bossed the AB pack.

How does POM get back in? I thought Stander and Heaslip were immense.

Heaslip has won just about everything now, bar a World Cup.

Rotation? What did Joe say to an interviewer at the weekend (can't remember if it was to an Irish or Kiwi interviewer)? He was asked what he learned from that 2013 oh-so-close game that he took with him to the next AB encounter. And he said he took with him the fact that you have to have more than 15 players and more than 22; that you need about 30 players, ready and able to go, ready and able to slide in there when called upon.
Now obviously, he didn't mean on the one day or in the one game; so it's obvious he means that Ireland have to have a group of players ready to do their bit then perhaps get a rest and then go again - but relying on the engines of distinct players through a series of games is not the way to build consistency for us.
Why do we keep wanting a distinct side playing all tough games? Why not trust to the notion that one guy rests, the other guy takes over - equal merits if bringing a little difference in terms of being a different player.

I'm delighted that Heaslip keeps raising the single digit finger to people who have consistently tried to undermine his importance and contribution to Ireland.
A serious warrior with Always the right attitude to game day. A giggler and unwound guy off the field but a serious operator on field. He may have bad games but this is the guy who never stops, so it's allowable if his bones or mind is grinding a little in some games. Doesn't impede his determination though.

Thoroughly deserved win for Ireland, a huge congratulatory pat on the back from me.

No complaints as an AB supporter, we were outplayed but still had enough fire to roar back into contention. On another day Ireland may have folded but not that day. Well done for getting the monkey off your backs. I hope the Guinness was tasting sweet on Saturday.

On another note, time for me to claim my irish heritage through my great-great grandmother, who was ½ Irish and ½ Lakota Sioux Indian who lived in Standing Rock (part of the great Sitting Bull’s group and she later came to NZ to live) where we now see another group of underdogs from a proud nation battling against the weight of history (and corporate greed). If this win tells us anything, it is not to write off the underdog ever!

I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

SecretFly wrote:I'm delighted that Heaslip keeps raising the single digit finger to people who have consistently tried to undermine his importance and contribution to Ireland.    
A serious warrior with Always the right attitude to game day.  A giggler and unwound guy off the field but a serious operator on field.  He may have bad games but this is the guy who never stops, so it's allowable if his bones or mind is grinding a little in some games.  Doesn't impede his determination though.

Thats because he hasn't always had the right attitude. He was a rubbish captain and I'd argue that a lot of the middle period of his career he was coasting at best without any real competition for his position.

But when he's good he's very good.

Golden wrote:I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

I'm no fan of this attitude - any game I watch I'm saying to myself "just free-kick 'em"

If they're unfit then that's the player's problem.

chewed_mintie wrote:

Golden wrote:I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

I'm no fan of this attitude - any game I watch I'm saying to myself "just free-kick 'em"

If they're unfit then that's the player's problem.

Who said they were unfit? I think the way they finished the game shows that they are actually quite fit. The problem wasn't one of fitness but of injury, and injuries effected the AB's just as much.

Munchkin wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

Golden wrote:I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

I'm no fan of this attitude - any game I watch I'm saying to myself "just free-kick 'em"

If they're unfit then that's the player's problem.

Who said they were unfit? I think the way they finished the game shows that they are actually quite fit. The problem wasn't one of fitness but of injury, and injuries effected the AB's just as much.

It's a general view Munchkin. I just want to see a fast game and I don't want time wasted either. If I had my way I would bring in place a 30 sec rule for scrums to be set, give an incentive to get set quicker. If one isn't set then free kick them. League have a rule where if one team sets up for the scrum and the other is not ready (ie still walking over) the clock is stopped. Stop teams decamping before a lineout too...just speed the game up!

rapidsnowman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah plus we were without arguably our two best backrow players in POM and SOB and lost another one early in the game and still bossed the AB pack.

How does POM get back in? I thought Stander and Heaslip were immense.

Heaslip has won just about everything now, bar a World Cup.

I agree however, POM is generally considered a key player and leader. Not a bad man to have on the bench in any case.

SecretFly wrote:

Golden wrote:Drinks are on Pot Hale so

I'm boring.  I've already moved on - my mind is already sitting in Joe's Monday Morning Inquisition office ready for serious 'what can we improve on? - where did we fail?' work.

The ABs will learn quickly - they'll adapt, they'll quickly work out what they did wrong - and it'll be an even bigger task to stick with them next time.  Yeah - I'm getting greedy, I'm staying sober;)

Great result for Ireland and the players were immense, but the Monday Morning Inquisition has plenty on the agenda;

- We conceded too many points
- Healy was lost in the defensive line on more than one occasion picking up the wrong man
- vdF should have started ahead of Jordi based on the contribution of both on the field
- Bealham shouldn't be letting himself get lifted out of the scrum so comically
- a couple of Murray's box kicks (and sextons, and joeys) were too long giving the back to a very dangerous back 3
- lineout (on ours and theirs) could have been better

Also, let's take the positive out of the result, not fall into the trap of defaulting to this lineup and continue to try new things;

- Rob played great, we know what he can do, let's rest him and try Payne at full back
- Lets blood Ringrose in the centres
- let's give vdf a fair crack (he's the form flanker arguably)
- Lets stop forcing 80 minutes out of Murray, we need other options getting experience there.

On a side note, that might have been the best game I've seen Zebo play for Ireland.

chewed_mintie wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

Golden wrote:I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

I'm no fan of this attitude - any game I watch I'm saying to myself "just free-kick 'em"

If they're unfit then that's the player's problem.

Who said they were unfit? I think the way they finished the game shows that they are actually quite fit. The problem wasn't one of fitness but of injury, and injuries effected the AB's just as much.

It's a general view Munchkin.  I just want to see a fast game and I don't want time wasted either.  If I had my way I would bring in place a 30 sec rule for scrums to be set, give an incentive to get set quicker.  If one isn't set then free kick them.  League have a rule where if one team sets up for the scrum and the other is not ready (ie still walking over) the clock is stopped.  Stop teams decamping before a lineout too...just speed the game up!

I agree. We would all like to see a much more flowing game without too many interruptions, allowing for injuries. As a spectacle I think the game was a great success though. It certainly had us all on the edge of our seats

Slowing the game down/breaking play is a tactic teams use to gain advantage. I'm not sure I can say Ireland were guilty of that yesterday, but it is a tactic many sides use, from time to time. I think more time is wasted on use of TMO. Some refs are much better at dealing with this than others, like Owens.

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'm delighted that Heaslip keeps raising the single digit finger to people who have consistently tried to undermine his importance and contribution to Ireland.    
A serious warrior with Always the right attitude to game day.  A giggler and unwound guy off the field but a serious operator on field.  He may have bad games but this is the guy who never stops, so it's allowable if his bones or mind is grinding a little in some games.  Doesn't impede his determination though.

Thats because he hasn't always had the right attitude. He was a rubbish captain and I'd argue that a lot of the middle period of his career he was coasting at best without any real competition for his position.

But when he's good he's very good.

He went through a year or two when he was all bad temper and frowns seemingly both on and off the field. I was impatient with the seeming constant foul mood, yes. Maybe it was a bad personal time, who knows. If you've lived long enough, you have them.
As regard the Captaincy. Maybe he had difficulty with the expectation levels that came with the role. I'd say even now that Rory is uncomfortable with aspects of it. But I'd say it was a much more natural role for Heaslip (who is always a bit of a Captain on the field regardless of 'armband') than it ever was for total Individualist BOD.

chewed_mintie wrote:

Golden wrote:I liked towards the end when the Ref was giving out to Heaslip that Irish players were down at every break in play delaying the game and he responds "Well its been a tough game".

I'm no fan of this attitude - any game I watch I'm saying to myself "just free-kick 'em"

If they're unfit then that's the player's problem.

If memory serves me right; I think the ref then mumbled something about either he or the ABs wanting the game played quicker (or quickly) and didn't Heaslip offer another morsel then?  Something along the lines of "Well we're trying to play it quick too."  And he was right.  In the end the ABs were getting in the way of our attempts to chase in for one last try

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'm delighted that Heaslip keeps raising the single digit finger to people who have consistently tried to undermine his importance and contribution to Ireland.    
A serious warrior with Always the right attitude to game day.  A giggler and unwound guy off the field but a serious operator on field.  He may have bad games but this is the guy who never stops, so it's allowable if his bones or mind is grinding a little in some games.  Doesn't impede his determination though.

Thats because he hasn't always had the right attitude. He was a rubbish captain and I'd argue that a lot of the middle period of his career he was coasting at best without any real competition for his position.

But when he's good he's very good.

He went through a year or two when he was all bad temper and frowns seemingly both on and off the field.  I was impatient with the seeming constant foul mood, yes.  Maybe it was a bad personal time, who knows.  If you've lived long enough, you have them.  
As regard the Captaincy.  Maybe he had difficulty with the expectation levels that came with the role.  I'd say even now that Rory is uncomfortable with aspects of it.  But I'd say it was a much more natural role for Heaslip (who is always a bit of a Captain on the field regardless of 'armband') than it ever was for total Individualist BOD.

We had something similar with Nick Easter. Great leader on the pitch but a failure as captain. Maybe just unlucky/ unsuitable in his case rather than lack of effort but it didn't work.

Heaslip wasnt a failure as a captain just because we lost some games when he was captain. His main stint as captain was in 2013 in Kidney's last year in charge. I dont think Heaslip deserved to take the blame for the poor results there at all. Ireland were a shambles that year in many ways.

His record as captain is 6 wins 5 losses and one draw. Its not that bad.

GunsGerms wrote:Heaslip wasnt a failure as a captain just because we lost some games when he was captain. His main stint as captain was in 2013 in Kidney's last year in charge. I dont think Heaslip deserved to take the blame for the poor results there at all. Ireland were a shambles that year in many ways.

His record as captain is 6 wins 5 losses and one draw. Its not that bad.

Its just an opinion. Another opinion is that win rates are rarely a reflection of any single factor (captaincy and coaching included). As you said Ireland had other problems at that time, but he didn't seem particularly engaged or a great leader.

Not trying to argue that he was the perfect captain but rather that he wasnt as bad as it universally seems to be accepted. One thing that Heaslip has in spades that a good captain needs is a calm head. He rarely if ever gets ruffled and yet can soak up huge amounts of pressure. Secondly he is very experienced and is ever present. I wouldn't be too worried if he had to deputise for Ireland. However, he wouldnt be as vocal or revered as the likes of Sexton nor POC and probably not as consistent as Best who is exceptional.

Rewatched the match last night and noticed a few things I missed on the day.

- our starting front row were phenomenal at the break down. I think it was a huge factor in the first half and a lot of the reason they couldn't get quick ball and ensured a decent first half lead
- our system f up for te first NZ try was immediately fixed. I think hendhaw was most at fault and rather than it being a negative, the system was excellent after that and henshaw was arguably our best player (after Murray)
- I hate to give him stick as he's always someone with way too much criticism and go forward he was great but I feel farrel will be tearing into Kearney for his tackling.
- we had 3 debutants in our 22 and the debutant with meaningful gametime didn't look out of place (carberry). It felt very NZ of us
- reading some Munster fan comments on Murray I felt it was hyperbolic. Rewatching the match I was wrong. It may we'll be the greatest scrum half performance I've ever seen from anyone. In a culture where the scrumhalf is always the lesser of the Irish half backs Murray is redefining the position. Our best current player.
- best has grown as a captain. I liked a lot of his interaction with the ref and compared to the at times too arrogant attitude of read, best got the better of the ref in general
- the ref in general play favored Ireland slightly but overall he missed some big calls for NZ cards (yellow should have been a red, NZ deserved at least one team yellow). Delighted after the fact that there was no card to dilute the importance of the win.
- NZ fans, media, coach, players both at the match and the following days were wonderful to a man and woman and a credit to their country.

After the match the Irish team did a lap of the pitch but they didn't dwell on it in the way past teams might where this is a one off. And the supporters around us were delirious but also focused on the next NZ match and the potential winning of a pseudo-series against NZ. My brother and I booked flights to Chicago nearly on a whim and it's still surreal to have been there. The emotion was wild.

Murray knew he was playing the best of the best. The team knew that they had to attack the ABs to even have a hope of staying reasonably close to them.  Murray therefore knew he had to play to the height of his ability and he knew he had to keep the tempo UP and ACCURATE for 80.  
He is a central figure in sustaining Tempo.  I've always said that he must accept that responsibility and become more consistently UP tempo.  If such a pace can trouble the ABs then it is good enough for all teams, from Canada, to Italy, to Scotland to England.

Murray is at his best and most alert and tricksty when he ups his and the team's tempo.  So I've been critical of him in the past when he's chosen to cruise at a canter pace against certain sides. The blueprint for the ABs should suit all opponents.

wolfball wrote:

After the match the Irish team did a lap of the pitch but they didn't dwell on it in the way past teams might where this is a one off. And the supporters around us were delirious but also focused on the next NZ match and the potential winning of a pseudo-series against NZ. My brother and I booked flights to Chicago nearly on a whim and it's still surreal to have been there. The emotion was wild.

That was actually quite pointed. Of course there was some emotional release, and not all of it after the game ended. Some players chose to let that tension out when they knew the ABs had no time left to get back. But overall I was struck by the quick come-down from the players. A great day and probably emotionally shattered but also acknowledging it was still just one game in a pretty tough series of games during this AI season.

Murray was great. I think that performance puts him in the Lions team.

SecretFly wrote:  A great day and probably emotionally shattered but also acknowledging it was still just one game in a pretty tough series of games during this AI season.

Scratch that, I don't we never win another game...lap it up boys

TJ wrote:Murray was great.  I think that performance puts him in the Lions team.

He is the best scrum half in the world right now.

GunsGerms wrote:

TJ wrote:Murray was great.  I think that performance puts him in the Lions team.

He is the best scrum half in the world right now.

Hard to argue with that really after that performance

How much Guinness do you have to drink before you qualify to be Irish... After the Welsh performance on Saturday, I think I may have consumed enough before the All Blacks performed their haka..  

                                                                                                                                                                                         

No9 wrote:How much Guinness do you have to drink before you qualify to be Irish... After the Welsh performance on Saturday, I think I may have consumed enough before the All Blacks performed their haka..  

                                                                                                                                                                                         

3 years worth. That's what Ah You, Payne and Stander did