England v South Africa, 12 November

First topic message reminder :

       
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA

Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).

GeordieFalcon wrote:So assuming it's
6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Billy

Does Jones tweak the back row instructions?  Or does Wood try to play the pressing ruck player and tackler with the likes of Launchbury, Mako (outstanding this season) etc covering Itoje as extra turnover breakdown man...

I think Gustard, as much as Jones, will insist on keeping the defensive role for one forward to stand 3rd defender out from the ruck (i.e. the first man after the guard and shield) and just tackle any forwards who run down that channel 10metres out from the ruck.

It's been a key part of his defence structure at Sarries and now England. He's had one back row player who will almost always set-up there on key defensive phases to rush-up, leading the line speed in defence. For Sarries it tended to be Jacques Burger, until now Haskell has been doing it for England under Gustard.

I think we will see that similar role being performed. Probably by Wood but maybe split with Robshaw a bit more.

Is wood a strong enough player physically to play that role?

I mean Burger, Haskell are other more physical and aggressive than Wood.

Maybe Lawes will do that role from 5?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is wood a strong enough player physically to play that role?

I mean Burger, Haskell are other more physical and aggressive than Wood.

Agreed. If you want a blindside, then they need to be a brick wall (which Haskell is) and Wood is not, excellent though he may be at other things.

beshocked wrote:Good quality 3rd choices is ideal but Webber didn't qualify as that! Not good enough and yet he was picked. I wouldn't applaud picking a player not good enough to get past a journeyman at his club. You are claiming Webber was experienced but he barely had any starts. Merely scraps off the bench. England's strength in depth at hooker was poor in the RWC.

Daly is only picked it seems because Joseph is not fully fit. So now we'll have a non fully fit player on the bench?

I would say Daly has been the form OS centre this year & apart from having a cannonball left leg can cover the back 3 if EJs is considering a 6:2 split on the bench. So probably Care, Teo/Joseph on the bench.

Interestingly David Flatman reported that Daly had missed the most tackles in the Prem this season, and put that down to defending at 13 and the problems that caused...

That was in a piece all about how good JJ was though, so not sure how true, and a little awkward after all the talking up that it came out the day before JJ seems to have been benched.

JJ is a very strong defensive player to compliment his attacking ability. Quality player.

Wasps fans are probably best to report on Dalys defending. But in all honesty, if Jones and Gustard are making the call they must be happy with it and will probably have a plan anyway.

Besides his attacking is great....let them worry about trying to stop his speed and his kicking!

Exactly Geordie - & u have to be in a position to tackle in order to miss one. His pace is electric & I hope he takes his chance.

Very excited to see Daly get a start, have been a big fan of his for a while now. Ball in hand, he is as exciting as any OS centre we have and, as has been stated, he has a huge boot and the fact that he is left footed also is a great plus for variety in the kicking game, especially in defensive areas. Nice bonus as well that he can cover full back if anything was to happen to Brown.

Another use of Daly has been his chase from ko & he either claims the ball or nails the player.
I can see it being used as a weapon in play to with OF inside him.

If that's the case, between him and May the SA kickoff receiving better look out

So is it?

1 Mako
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Billy

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Nowell / May
15 Brown

England match-day 23 for the Old Mutual Wealth Series game against South Africa

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 52 caps)
14. Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 9 caps)
13. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 5 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 43 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 19 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 61 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 35 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 75 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 35 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 49 caps)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 51 caps)
7. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 42 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 29 caps)

Replacements
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 8 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 42 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, uncapped)
19. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, uncapped)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 62 caps)
22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
23. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks) and Tommy Taylor (Wasps) are included in the squad as travelling reserves.

All makes sense but interesting to see 2 centers on the bench. Looks like EJ is ready to make changes early again if needed

It's still good team in the circumstances but two centres on the bench.....

No specialist wing or full back cover. I just hope it doesn't bite England in the backside.

lostinwales we'll see if Jones is ready to make changes if needed.

If Hartley goes off who would you select as captain? You know who I would pick.

Rob Webber?

Forward replacements look promising, and other than Daly its what we all expected, lets see how it goes on the day

Any ideas when SA name their side?

Damn Im good

BamBam wrote:Rob Webber?

Billy Vunipola.

Wouldn't be my ideal choice (of course if Itoje was fit it would be him) but he's one of the vice captains.

Farrell shouldn't be anywhere near the captaincy. Brown wouldn't be my choice either.

I'd have Launchbury instead of Farrell or Brown as a vice captain.

There's going to be explosions off the bench with sinkler and Hughes!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Damn Im good

Bravo

GeordieFalcon wrote:There's going to be explosions off the bench with sinkler and Hughes!!!

I hope not. Would not be ideal for Sinckler to get himself sin binned in his first appearance for England.

The forwards on the bench do look like good impact players but need to keep their discipline. Too often you see people too pumped up, too excited and doing something stupid.

Of course more experienced props like Mako and Marler got a YC in their last games so they need to not doing something stupid either.

Joe Launch or Billy would be the obvious choices if/when Mr Hartley goes off.

Beshocked

I was referring more to the carrying abilities of them both.....

Fluxy wrote:England match-day 23 for the Old Mutual Wealth Series game against South Africa

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 52 caps)
14. Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 9 caps)
13. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 5 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 43 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 19 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 61 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 35 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 75 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 35 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 49 caps)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 51 caps)
7. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 42 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 29 caps)

Replacements
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 8 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 42 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, uncapped)
19. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, uncapped)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 62 caps)
22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
23. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks) and Tommy Taylor (Wasps) are included in the squad as travelling reserves.

Hello Stuart? Stuart? Is that... you... Mr Lancaster?

It is a decent enough team, it is virtually the same one employed by Lancaster that had a something like a 75% win rate against the Northern Hemisphere sides. Lets hope Eddie can harden them up to go that little bit further to beat the Southern Hemisphere sides, it's easy to forget that whilst Bombers record wasn't great against the big three England were practically always within 5-7 points of winning against them.

Got to be a real concern if Robshaw or Wood goes down early. There's no backrow cover to offer their work rate round the field. Big ask for them to do a full 80 against an SA pack as well.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Joe Launch or Billy would be the obvious choices if/when Mr Hartley goes off.

3 vice captains named, which does not include Launchbury. I suspect of the 3 Faz would be captain (ahead of Brown and Billy) if of course he is still on the pitch.

LondonTiger wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Joe Launch or Billy would be the obvious choices if/when Mr Hartley goes off.

3 vice captains named, which does not include Launchbury. I suspect of the 3 Faz would be captain (ahead of Brown and Billy) if of course he is still on the pitch.

beshocked wrote:It's still good team in the circumstances but two centres on the bench.....

No specialist wing or full back cover. I just hope it doesn't bite England in the backside.

lostinwales we'll see if Jones is ready to make changes if needed.

If Hartley goes off who would you select as captain? You know who I would pick.

Specialist wing cover always seems like a luxury. In this case I think that JJ and Daly could both shift to the wing without major issues, and Daly to fullback is pretty exciting too.

And we know that EJ will make changes if he thinks its necessary.

As for captain I do think its the most important thing that Hartley brings, but as this team has matured there are more leaders than there used to be. As said Billy would be fine. Farrell has filled in for spells without problems and then there is always a certain ex captain...

If Hartley goes off, Billy will be captain I think, but he'll have lots of leadership to help him with those mentioned above but also Ford, George, Launchbury, Wood (touted as England captain once upon a time) and maybe Care.

Also, lots of those players, like Launch and Robshaw, are also good followers

formerly known as Sam wrote:Got to be a real concern if Robshaw or Wood goes down early. There's no backrow cover to offer their work rate round the field. Big ask for them to do a full 80 against an SA pack as well.

It would be Lawes to flanker if it's early I think. Not ideal but bearable in a crisis

GeordieFalcon wrote:There's going to be explosions off the bench with sinkler and Hughes!!!

Yep! And George no slouch either

formerly known as Sam wrote:Got to be a real concern if Robshaw or Wood goes down early. There's no backrow cover to offer their work rate round the field. Big ask for them to do a full 80 against an SA pack as well.

Attwood on, then Launchbury to back row. Hughes is also there.

Nit ideal at all but offers size and power.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:There's going to be explosions off the bench with sinkler and Hughes!!!

Yep! And George no slouch either

Sorry yes indeed!!!

Can anyone remember who took over as captain when Hartley went off in Australia? I know that Billy, Farrell & Brown have been joint vice captains for the entire year, but cannot for the life of me remember who took over in the past.

I'm pretty sure it was Billy

BamBam wrote:I'm pretty sure it was Billy

While I was sure I saw Farrell take over

Not that it really matters, as really the main decision the skipper makes is what to do with penalties, and if Hartley was off Farrell would decide that anyway irrespective of captaincy.

The Springbok team to face England at Twickenham:

15. Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles (Japan)), 39 caps, 45 points
14. Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), 4 caps, 13 points
13. Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), uncapped
12. Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), 20 caps, 10 points
11. JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers (England)), 69 caps, 120 points
10. Patrick Lambie (vice-captain) (Cell C Sharks), 53 caps, 137 points
9. Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls), 5 caps, 0 points
8. Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes (Japan)), 12 caps, 15 points
7. Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), 17 caps, 15 points
6. Willem Alberts (Stade Francais (France)), 41 caps, 35 points
5. Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), 25 caps, 20 points
4. Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), 53 caps, 10 points
3. Vincent Koch (Saracens (England)), 7 caps, 0 points
2. Adriaan Strauss (captain) (Vodacom Blue Bulls), 63 caps, 30 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), 84 caps, 10 points
Replacements
16. Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), 3 caps, 0 points
17. Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux (France)), 7 caps, 0 points
18. Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), 4 caps, 0 points
19. Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams (Japan)), 4 caps, 0 points
20. Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), 2 caps, 0 points
21. Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), 8 caps, 0 points
22. Johan Goosen (Racing 92 (France)), 10 caps, 20 points
23. Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears (Japan)), 9 caps, 0 points

http://www.sarugby.net/news/springboks-shuffle-team-clash-england/

That is a big old pack .. De Jager, Etzebeth, then Alberts and PDST playing flanker

Interesting sub plot - Koch will packing against his future fellow frontrower team mate, Mako. More than just bragging rights will be on offer.

Also interesting that he topped the tackle stats for his new club in the LV Cup -

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/vincent-koch-zach-mercer-and-george-worth-top-the-anglo-welsh-cup-opta-rankings/

Pack looks too big, not mobile with a very unbalanced back 5. And no Van Rensburg :o

ChequeredJersey wrote:Pack looks too big, not mobile with a very unbalanced back 5. And no Van Rensburg :o

I actually think this is a pretty shrewd move by AC.

Eng have no fetcher so that gives him a bit of a liberty to lose one from his team. Additionally his back is right up against the wall, they have a few injuries, they're struggling for any sort of cohesion and they are underdogs according to the rankings too.

Because of that, he probably thinks that they will struggle to impose any sort of game plan on ENG. EJ has consistently trumpeted that he would like ENG to be brutal and for the pack to dominate. What I think AC is doing is essentially calling EJ's bluff and saying right then, if that's what you want, we will match it, then what have you got?

If Eng then suddenly have to change things on the fly and start playing this wide expansive game to move the Big Boks around then cracks may start to appear. So far, we haven't really seen that from Eng and they've been drilled for a different game plan.

Of course if ENG can unlock their running game then he may look a bit stupid but I think AC has played his hand pretty well here and given the Saffas an excellent chance of keeping it a tight game.

What Eddie Jones SAYS means very very little

True, but watching all of ENG's Games under him I'd say it's pretty fair to say they are playing a forwards based game.

The England pack is also big. And there is Hughes to come on the pitch as well. There could be some huge collisions

Looks a bit like irresistible force meets immovable object.

Interesting that Faf de Klerk, who saved the series for SA vs Ireland is only on the bench.

I think England have shown that they can score through the backs as well as play a forward based game, though they lack the fluidity of the All Blacks. However, it's a new backline so I expect things to be pretty direct. One potential area of strength is that England have some serious power on the bench to bring on - the whole substitute front row offers carrying and tackling, plus there's Hughes, and then Care to shake things up if it becomes an arm wrestle.

Every one lacks the fluidity of the all blacks.

England have used their wings well so far, and scored a lot in the final 20. Both those factors should be enough if we're leading by the 60min mark.

I would also say that Brown is currently in better form then he has been this year, and Yarde seems to be learning to work very well with him.