Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November

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IRELAND v NEW ZEALAND
19 November 2016
KO: 17:30
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports 2

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Mathieu Raynal (France), Ian Davies (Wales)
Television match official: Jon Mason (Wales)
Assessor: Chris White (England)

A. Head to Head

29 Played 29
1 Won 27
1 Drawn 1
27 Lost 1
310 Points 812

B. Recent Form 

5 November 2016
Soldier Field, Chicago IL
40–29 to Ireland

24 November 2013 
Aviva Stadium, Dublin 
22 – 24 to New Zealand 

23 June 2012 
Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 
60 – 0 to New Zealand 

16 June 2012 
Rugby League Park, Christchurch 
22 – 19 to New Zealand

9 June 2012 
Eden Park, Auckland 
42 – 10 to New Zealand

20 November 2010 
Aviva Stadium, Dublin 
18 – 38 to New Zealand 

C. Teams

IRELAND 

R Kearney; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong; D Toner, D Ryan; CJ Stander, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, C Healy, F Bealham, I Henderson, J van der Flier, K Marmion, P Jackson, G Ringrose.

NEW ZEALAND

B Smith; I Dagg, M Fekitoa, A Lienert-Brown, J Savea; B Barrett, A Smith; J Moody, D Coles, O Franks; B Retallick, S Whitelock; L Squire, S Can, K Read (capt).

Replacements: C Taylor, W Crockett, C Faumuina, S Barrett, A Savea, TJ Perenara, A Cruden, W Naholo.

emack2 wrote:I wish the moaning of the Ireland fans would cease they denigrate a
fantastic Irish effort.Open both eyes close your ears to the disgraceful
one eyed commentary.
Then watch the match with a open mind,a game played at high speed
by both sides.High tackles,late early tackles,neck rolls,etc were happening
by BOTH SIDES.
Aron Smiths yellow was a joke,nothing more than a technical point.
High tackles to strip the ball or not allow off loading is standard by
ALL sides since League defence coaches have been employed.
IRB is now trying to introduce tackling above the waist to become
illegal good luck with that

I disagree with you completely and find this an exceedingly condescending and patronising message. Just my opinion, but NZ played that game with the kind of thuggery levels not seen since perhaps Corne Krige's Boks in 2002(?). The were hurting from the Chicago defeat and determined to impose themselves physically on the Irish. It could have backfired on them with a stronger ref, but as it was the tactics worked perfectly to secure the win. However they are a better team than that and did not have to resort to thuggery.

I would expect NZ fans to leap to their teams defence, we all do that for our own teams, but for a supposed neutral to show such a one-eyed apologist approach is disappointing. I know the game has changed over the last 40 years, and there is a lot less thuggery than there once was as cameras pick up most things. However players of yesteryear will look at the sort of challenge Sam Cane put in and ponder the condemnation they received for much milder challenges (ie Paul Ringer).

Emack isnt a neutral. He is an AB fan.

Just something I`d like to point out didn't the Ireland coach instigate
the Choke tackle.?which by it`s inference is technically illegal.
As already stated the High tackle is pure league given the game now
is a hybrid.
Most of the tackles by both sides were borderline High if you say
there were to many high tackles I agree.
The Cane incident doesn't look look like a high tackle deserving a
red card.Fekitoa will get a suspension possibly a long one, Cane
before he fell looked as if he`d been punched.
Ireland were no choir boys and given the status of the match it
was going to be no holds barred.

emack2 wrote:Just something I`d like to point out didn't the Ireland coach instigate
the Choke tackle.?which by it`s inference is technically illegal.
As already stated the High tackle is pure league given the game now
is a hybrid.
Most of the tackles by both sides were borderline High if you say
there were to many high tackles I agree.
The Cane incident doesn't look look like a high tackle deserving a
red card.Fekitoa will get a suspension possibly a long one, Cane
before he fell looked as if he`d been punched.
Ireland were no choir boys and given the status of the match it
was going to be no holds barred.

Whataboutery at its finest.

This game was shown in Sky in the UK, wasn't it. I can't seem to find it on demand.

cakeordeath wrote:This game was shown in Sky in the UK, wasn't it. I can't seem to find it on demand.

You can watch it on YouTube.

LondonTiger wrote:NZ played that game with the kind of thuggery levels not seen since perhaps Corne Krige's Boks in 2002(?)

That 2002 game (where England won 53-3) SA were absolutely horrendous. The worst example of thuggery in the 'modern' game. Even after the red card there were so many passages of play where SA were animals. Krige's face smash on Dawson followed by the knee drop on Vickery in particular. If a citing officer were present the hearings would have lasted the whole of the following week!

Much of the SA anger was based on them being a poor (by SA standards) side coming up against an England outfit at the peak of their powers. With NZ it was definitely a case of seeing Ireland as a threat and having to resort to dubious tactics. It tends to happen when they're up against it (often they have no need as they're comfortably better).

emack2 wrote:Just something I`d like to point out didn't the Ireland coach instigate
the Choke tackle.?which by it`s inference is technically illegal.
As already stated the High tackle is pure league given the game now
is a hybrid.
Most of the tackles by both sides were borderline High if you say
there were to many high tackles I agree.
The Cane incident doesn't look look like a high tackle deserving a
red card.Fekitoa will get a suspension possibly a long one, Cane
before he fell looked as if he`d been punched.
Ireland were no choir boys and given the status of the match it
was going to be no holds barred.

If a maul is held up by using a players head or neck it's a penalty.

I make no bones about my All Blacks support,never have one eyed
apologist?
People saying NZ were deliberately trying to injure key players I
take exception too.Cue Bod Lions spear tackle rant.
IF you can`t beat a side with 14 men for 20 minutes conceding just
3 points in each well?
As for the show boat "try" long after the Ref had whistled an offence
then asking for the TMO was a joke.
Ireland played superbly over both matches don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.
When the side picked for Chicago the weakest AB side since 2009
I predicted the loss,and could have predicted the areas they`d exploit.

emack2 wrote:don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.

It's just as well NZ fans have never complained after a loss and always respect refereeing decisions and circumstances then

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:They are saying in the press today that it is unlikely that Cain will be sanctioned. They say that the WRB would have too much egg on their face if Cain was sanctioned and that would show the ref up to have been on the incompetent side of the job. Incompetent officials immediately after the WRB had issued an edict to tighten up on head shots is something they would find to hard to live with. Another cover-up is on the cards.

I doubt he will either. Im sure it wasnt intentional and it does look bad in slow motion. However, Henshaw was ducking down as he spun out of the other challenge and it happened quite quick.

It was however reckless and a yellow at the time would have been fair.

I'm not at all sure it wasn't intentional given the way Cane was also launching himself (shoulder first) into rucks.
Add to that Dagg's shoulder to Stander's head and Dagg targetting Zebo in the ruck forcing both players off.
Then there was Coles dipping his shoulder to hit Murray's head, and Ardie Savea replacing Cane's shoulder with his own exocet rucking. The conclusion is that there were far too many examples of ABs hitting Ireland players with their shoulders for it not to be intentional or co-ordinated.

emack2 wrote:I make no bones about my All Blacks support,never have one eyed
apologist?
People saying NZ were deliberately trying to injure key players I
take exception too.Cue Bod Lions spear tackle rant.
IF you can`t beat a side with 14 men for 20 minutes conceding just
3 points in each well?
As for the show boat "try" long after the Ref had whistled an offence
then asking for the TMO was a joke.
Ireland played superbly over both matches don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.
When the side picked for Chicago the weakest AB side since 2009
I predicted the loss,and could have predicted the areas they`d exploit.

They were deliberately trying to injure players. That's rugby, but it's how they were trying to injure players. The shoulder charges aiming high, and the high tackles, were deliberate. Dagg should have been sent off, for example. It appears that it was a tactic, which goes against the World Rugby directive issued just 10 days prior.

Cyril wrote:

emack2 wrote:don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.

It's just as well NZ fans have never complained after a loss and always respect refereeing decisions and circumstances then

Yup, can't remember a single incident or indeed anyone on this very thread hypocritically moaning and stamping their feet when Wayne Barnes dare ref a match with NZ.

And hello Wayne! Was wondering when you'd pop in.

Wayne always makes an entrance in these debates, rather like Jake White always making an appearance in the 'vacant International coaching position' threads

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

emack2 wrote:don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.

It's just as well NZ fans have never complained after a loss and always respect refereeing decisions and circumstances then

Yup, can't remember a single incident or indeed anyone on this very thread hypocritically moaning and stamping their feet when Wayne Barnes dare ref a match with NZ.

Wayne Barnes actually wasnt allowed ref NZ for a few years. I wish Ireland had the same sway with world rugby as NZ do.

SecretFly wrote:And hello Wayne!     Was wondering when you'd pop in.

Wayne always makes an entrance in these debates, rather like Jake White always making an appearance in the 'vacant International coaching position' threads

Well he is the worlds worst ref. He is the Eddie the Eagle of international rugby refereeing.

First point of contact - fist to the head

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And hello Wayne!     Was wondering when you'd pop in.

Wayne always makes an entrance in these debates, rather like Jake White always making an appearance in the 'vacant International coaching position' threads

Well he is the worlds worst ref. He is the Eddie the Eagle of international rugby refereeing.

Ireland aspire to be like NZ. Don't become like their fans

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Ban him for life, I say!

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And hello Wayne!     Was wondering when you'd pop in.

Wayne always makes an entrance in these debates, rather like Jake White always making an appearance in the 'vacant International coaching position' threads

Well he is the worlds worst ref. He is the Eddie the Eagle of international rugby refereeing.

Ireland aspire to be like NZ. Don't become like their fans

With success comes arrogance.............. as some of us would have a memory of....

I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

Could we get back to Peyper...and his officials?

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And hello Wayne!     Was wondering when you'd pop in.

Wayne always makes an entrance in these debates, rather like Jake White always making an appearance in the 'vacant International coaching position' threads

Well he is the worlds worst ref. He is the Eddie the Eagle of international rugby refereeing.

Ireland aspire to be like NZ. Don't become like their fans

With success comes arrogance.............. as some of us would have a memory of....

We English are born arrogant, don't you know? Success is just a bonus

Yes, let's stay focused on Peyper and his partner in crime, Mason.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

It would be interesting to see who Ireland played in those games. Perhaps they would have lost most of them anyway?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

emack2 wrote:don`t sully the memories
of your sides efforts be proud of them.

It's just as well NZ fans have never complained after a loss and always respect refereeing decisions and circumstances then

Yup, can't remember a single incident or indeed anyone on this very thread hypocritically moaning and stamping their feet when Wayne Barnes dare ref a match with NZ.

Wayne Barnes actually wasnt allowed ref NZ for a few years. I wish Ireland had the same sway with world rugby as NZ do.

Yeah a few Irish fans were annoyed by him actually imposing the laws as well!

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve. However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

Glad I'm bringing NZ and Irish fans back together though!

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

It would be interesting to see who Ireland played in those games. Perhaps they would have lost most of them anyway?

Most of them were v Wales where he grew up.

Same man, 14 secs in to the game

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

What do you think a fair outcome in this scenario would have been?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

What do you think a fair outcome in this scenario would have been?

For making contact to the head with a closed fist is it not a red card?

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

I think the weight of 'alleged' incidents of a dubious nature during the game is considered to be on Ireland's side. That's probably about it. As regards the other stuff about 'this site'............. you don't tune into the Pro12 threads too often it seems Wise man - not for the squeamish.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

It would be interesting to see who Ireland played in those games. Perhaps they would have lost most of them anyway?

Oh Crap, Cyril! You opened the tiniest of chinks in the armour there! The sharks will smell it!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

It would be interesting to see who Ireland played in those games. Perhaps they would have lost most of them anyway?

Most of them were v Wales where he grew up.

I hear he holidays in Provence, has a liking for pasta and takes bagpipe lessons. He's tried the craic but it's not to his taste

You sound like Phill from the club boards with your tinfoil hat.

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

I think the weight of 'alleged' incidents of a dubious nature during the game is considered to be on Ireland's side.  That's probably about it.  As regards the other stuff about 'this site'............. you don't tune into the Pro12 threads too often it seems   Wise man - not for the squeamish.  

No - I mean there are far more Irish fans on this site compared to kiwi fans, so there is ineveitably going to be a stronger feeling of wrongdoings against the Irish compared to NZ. From reading this thread my opinion is that if you bring something up that an Irish player has done, you are merely justifying any actions that NZ carried out.

Can't say I've ever had to bring myself to watch 80 mins of a Pro12 game either....sorry

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

chewed_mintie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

What do you think a fair outcome in this scenario would have been?

For making contact to the head with a closed fist is it not a red card?

On the video does Cane's head not come towards Henshaw's fist rather than the other way round? Looks like that to me. It is also fairly clear that Henshaw wasnt aware that Cane was even there before he was knocked out. The shoulder to the face also came before Henshaw's hand made very minimal impact if any at all with Cane's face.

If you believe Henshaw deserved a red card then you must believe that Cane deserved one for shouldering Henshaw in the face?

chewed_mintie wrote:

Can't say I've ever had to bring myself to watch 80 mins of a Pro12 game either....sorry

Oh never mind about the games, chewed - I was referring more to the Love bombing all things Irish get on those threads. We blush

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm convinced Barnes is biased against Ireland. We have only won something like 4 from 14 games he has reffed. I also dont like his style of refereeing. He has too much impact on the games he refs.

It would be interesting to see who Ireland played in those games. Perhaps they would have lost most of them anyway?

Most of them were v Wales where he grew up.

I hear he holidays in Provence, has a liking for pasta and takes bagpipe lessons. He's tried the craic but it's not to his taste

You sound like Phill from the club boards with your tinfoil hat.

A FrancoScottoWelshofile? Well I never!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Is this for balance?

With the weight of support firmly on Ireland's side on this site I think balance will be difficult to achieve.  However, I have only posted a picture explaining the first point of contact from an incident which people pretend does not exist

What do you think a fair outcome in this scenario would have been?

For making contact to the head with a closed fist is it not a red card?

On the video does Cane's head not come towards Henshaw's fist rather than the other way round? Looks like that to me. It is also fairly clear that Henshaw wasnt aware that Cane was even there before he was knocked out. The shoulder to the face also came before Henshaw's hand made very minimal impact if any at all with Cane's face.

If you believe Henshaw deserved a red card then you must believe that Cane deserved one for shouldering Henshaw in the face?

Sorry Guns, what video are you referring to? I have posted a picture of Sexton's closed fist making contact with Barrett's head when in the act of scoring. I haven't mentioned Henshaw or Cane anywhere...

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

Can't have been anything in it. He wasn't cited. A bit like Dagg ...

SecretFly wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

Can't say I've ever had to bring myself to watch 80 mins of a Pro12 game either....sorry

Oh never mind about the games, chewed - I was referring more to the Love bombing all things Irish get on those threads.  We blush  

I'm a big fan of the Irish anyway secretfly, love getting over there and especially love our games against the Irish. It's a pity that the 'relationship' has descended so quickly after the mutual love-in of Chicago.

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

Isn't that a bit like the shoulder to shoulder posts and pics earlier on? Don't folks here require 20 angles before they admit that what they are looking at is actually what happened?

So give us the 19 more angles there, chewed. My vision is blurred until I get them..

Munchkin wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

Can't have been anything in it. He wasn't cited. A bit like Dagg ...

So why are we talking about either incident?

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

No I see a blur which doesn't show contact it shows possible contact

chewed_mintie wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

Can't have been anything in it. He wasn't cited. A bit like Dagg ...

So why are we talking about either incident?

You brought it up.

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:

First point of contact - fist to the head

Sorry wheres the fist? And wheres the contact with the head?

Think you need to enlarge the picture, then take off any special coloured glasses you are wearing.  His fist is quite clearly making contact with Barrett's cheek and jaw

No I see a blur which doesn't show contact it shows possible contact

It becomes more apparent when you watch the video