Teaching Pro's

Just canvassing opinion as usual guys and gals. This time on teaching pro's and their methods.

Im sure many of you have had lessons and others not (natural athletes you lot)

But as a result of knowing a fair few PGA pros that are full time teachers these days I have been able to witness them teach and also just from looking at guys on the range getting lessons, I have been astounded in what I have seen.

I grew up around golf and was fortunate enough to work my youth in a proshop in summer holidays for a pro called Brian Impitt now he was a very good coach he would look at what a player naturally has and work with that and get them to work on making their natural work and repeat, he did very little technical stuff with guys teaching them in lehmans terms and making sure they had all the basics right and he got great results and helped produce many young players that are now PGA regostered pro's themselves and others very low handicaps.

But there has been a huge change, now most pro's I see teach virtually the same things as each other, whether this is as a by product of what they learn at the PGA academy or not i don't know but all those I have witnessed recently seem intent on making sure they make the guys they are working with effectively scrapping their natural swings and building them a swing that is purely taught to them from a text book, which in my opinion cannot work for everyone surely.

This also got me thinking is this why many of the top teachers (guys on tour) stay at the top of their profession so so long as they have their own methods, ideas and thesis on the golf swing, I mean Haney, Harmon, Leadbetter, Foley and Torrance clearly do not teach the same as each other you can tell the difference in the mechanics they teach and is this why PGA guys dom't break through as often as they should into coaching on the tour, because they have a mindset they have been taught and not elaborated on that with their own research and ideas.

HAve you found that you get more out of one pro than another for anything i have mentioned here or am i talking garbage (which is a distinct possibility)

I had lots of lessons when I first took up the game, and from the age of 8 to 14 I always kept with the same tutor. Unfortunately he left my club, and we had to look elsewhere. I went to another coach and in the first lesson he tried to tell me to change all that I had been taught for the last 6 years. I didn't want to, as I was already playing off 3, and told him that I simply wanted to hone the swing I already had. I only had one lesson with him.

Over the years I have had a few lessons with different pros, and each and every time they have tried to alter my swing from lesson 1 for no reason other that to justify their hourly fee. It's almost as if they're teaching from a textbook, instead of learning about swing mechanics and working with what they've been given. They need to appreciate that golfers aren't robots, and what works for one player won't necessarily work for another.

Personally, I find golf lessons a complete waste of money unless you start playing golf under the guidance of one teacher, and manage to stay with him/her throughout your entire golfing career.

My sentiments and point exactly Marcus

Intent on teaching their way the way they learnt at the Acadmey because that is the move and swings sequences it shows in the text books, they are not taking into account what is right for the player, after all you can teach someone 6foot 2" to swing the same way as a guy a foot shorter, or teach men and women to swing exactly the same due to physical limitations. There is surely no actual right or wrong way just the right way for the individual.

It seems a lot is done in this method to get series of lessons booked so guys have to comeback to complete the rebuild process, if someone told me i had to change my swing to conform with their teachings the lesson would end within the first 5 minutes, and his fee would stay in my pocket, if someone requests a rebuild then thats different. I think teachers should spend time watching the swing of the pupil to learn it and then make only the required adjustments

Exactly. You need to find a pro who knows your swing, can tell when you're swinging well, and most importantly knows WHY you're swinging it badly.

Pros who want to rebuild a swing from lesson 1 are lazy. They're simply regurgitating technique from the handbook in a systematic manner, and only really care about pocketing their fee at the end of the lesson.

For proof of this, all you need to do is watch golf on TV... If the technique advised in the PGA manual was some sort of "magic swing", guaranteed to hit the ball straight and long, then every single swing would look the same. As it is, every swing you see is different, and that's because they work with coaches who know and appreciate that each swing is different.

I've had a couple of lessons from a couple of club pro's and both were inadequate as far as I was concerned. As Marcus has stated, the 2nd bloke wanted to undo the stuff the 1st bloke put in place. The upshot was a waste of money because it was like they were following a set instruction manual and no way was I able to conform.

I actually learnt a hell of a lot more and used with great affect, stuff my golf fitter/builder showed me. I was astonished to learn just how much knowledge the guy had, and the easy way he put his points over. I was there so he could make me some clubs to suit my game etc, and he was a breath of fresh air. he knew everything about swing mechanic,s and he just gave me a couple of very simple tips which have stayed with me, and would imagine that what he told me would be fairly bespoke to me, because I'm different from everyone else. In that respect we're all unique so would guess that many of the club pro's/teachers are no good, unless they have experience to enable them to adapt what they know to each individual, instead of trying to make us into clones.

I fully accept that there will be many great teachers at various locations, but feel these will now be in a minority.

my take on this is not the norm.

go to a pro when you feel you are swinging and playing well. tell him you are pretty happy with your current form. if he is any good he will take notes and if he can improve your game he will but the best reason for doing this is when your game goes south go back and he should know how you were swinging when you first came to him and wont have to throw the book at you.

the local pro i used as a junior (free lessons ) had a look at my swing last year and he said to me "good to see your grip is not as strong now but you are still a hitter not a swinger"........18 years between lessons!!!!!!

he still teaches the same things tho. he is a get your back to the target man.

Fully agree with all of you. Ideally the professional should spend some time simply observing and analysing a player on separate occasions, to get an idea of how they swing, change their game in different conditions, and perhaps most importantly speaking to them about how they feel whilst going through the swing. Problem is, that takes some time and effort, which isn't always available...Mav is absolutely right about too many teaching from the textbook. It's not a lack of knowledge, as I'm sure they all know a ton about the theory regarding swing fundamentals and whatnot, but rather than misapplication of that understanding. Every golfer is different, both physically and mentally, and they'll take to certain approaches different. A 'softly softly' approach is surely more beneficial for most, with small tweaks instead of wholesale changes - people have a 'base level' that it's unwise to alter, and instead specific attributes should be built upon, whilst other weaknesses are ironed out via small alterations. It'd perhaps mean fewer lessons (and a small cash-flow...), but it's the best approach.

In my experience, this applies to other sports too, surely? The best tennis coaches that I've seen have all tried to work with the player as a person (rather than just a slab of clay designed to be moulded as and when), and applying different aspects of the textbook theory to them as is appropriate. Building on natural strengths and gradually coaxing away the technical deficiencies, within reason. Not everyone can have a 'perfect' technique - is there even such a thing, especially in golf? See Swingers vs Winners thread, I guess.

And maybe I'm wrong in this comparison, but I think this applies outside of sport too - I'm a piano tutor, and feel quite strongly about this, especially having witnessed some truly poor teaching methods in my time...too many people going by the book, rather than getting inventive. The greatest joy that I take from tutoring someone is working with them personally, as an individual - if they fancy working in a more flexible and fun environment, and want to mash on the keyboard with abandon initially, then great! Whatever helps them learn the best. It's akin to a puzzle, figuring out what makes a person tick, and then plotting out the right approach to help them enjoy what they're doing, and try to stoke up a passion for playing the piano. If I couldn't help people genuinely enjoy what they're interested in, then I'd have no business being a tutor.

Sorry for the rambling guys...great topic anyway.

I did post on this subject on the other board,but would like to add a little more.
I've recently started playing again after a 20 year lay off.I'm Pensioner,with all the older gentleman's ache's and pains.This is what i took to a Pro for a lesson just to start me off again and to help sort one problem.
I'm basicaly self taught.I know what makes it work for me.Its simple with no swing thaughts other than to remind myself to take a strong grip.(i sometimes forget)
I explained to the Pro what i wanted just to tune up a bit and just to be able to enjoy playing.I was hitting the ball fat and couldn't get out of it.
The Pro said i needed a rebuild.I just didn't go back.
I've sorted it myself.Just a weight transfer issue.
I've no doubt there are some great pro's out there.On the BBC606 site i suggested that maybe a list of great pro's and their location would be benificial to the younger and more ambitious player than me.
I won't be going to a teacher again simply because it isn't neccessary,not because i don't trust them.
I don't practice on the range or anything like that.I just play.On the range i just get bored stiff with it.
It suits me the way i go about it.I don't have any great aspirations other than to keep the ball in play,avoid slow play,and,most of all,enjoy it.

wolfrunna wrote:...The Pro said i needed a rebuild.I just didn't go back...

Could you see the dollar/pound signs in his eyes as he thought of all the lessons he'd be commissioned to do for your 'rebuild'? Many of them are over-rated. They set themselves up as a purveyor of some sort of black magic that only they understand; it's not that hard a game in many ways but it does need a lot of time on the practice range/course.

Anyone seen the YouTube skit below?

Golf is easy!

Navy

I watched that video link. If you think that golf is all about geometrically opposed centrifugal forces swinging on a balanced snap plane then you clearly know nothing about golf. EVERYONE knows that you need to have a layered power follow through with lagged angles caused by the deflection of the bounce of the soleplate which results in a firm left side.

Sorry mate, you've gone right down in my estimation! :606laugh:

drive4show wrote:Navy

I watched that video link. If you think that golf is all about geometrically opposed centrifugal forces swinging on a balanced snap plane then you clearly know nothing about golf. EVERYONE knows that you need to have a layered power follow through with lagged angles caused by the deflection of the bounce of the soleplate which results in a firm left side.

Sorry mate, you've gone right down in my estimation! :606laugh:

The bit I like (apart from the taking the micky) is the way he tops it so perfectly and catches the ball so smoothly as it pops up. Wonder how many takes it took.

Navy

Yeah, I had to watch it a couple of times to work out how he did that. At first I thought he flopped it up by opening his wedge then realised that he'd topped it hard into the ground.

You gotta be good to do that to order

wolfrunna wrote:I've no doubt there are some great pro's out there.On the BBC606 site i suggested that maybe a list of great pro's and their location would be benificial to the younger and more ambitious player than me.

im happy to name a few if others wish to create a thread to also do the same to help everyone

Not a bad shout guy's, maybe we should have a sticky where we can put reccomends by area for teachers, equipment, fitters, clothing, shoes, buggies and most importantly must play courses. The Reference Section

Doc wrote:Not a bad shout guy's, maybe we should have a sticky where we can put reccomends by area for teachers, equipment, fitters, clothing, shoes, buggies and most importantly must play courses. The Reference Section

:friend: Sounds spot on to me

Fantastic idea, sounds like it'd be really useful. Permanently stickied at the top of the forum, y'mean?

Watch this space

Up and coming teaching pro to keep an eye on ............... Stewart Craig from Scotland. He coaches Solheim Cup player Becky Brewerton and has worked with one or two of the others on the LPGA. He was also involved with Paul Hurrion in developing the Pro Stance training aid.

He is a rising star ........... just needs one of the big boys to start working with him !!

My game (not that I was very good) was ruined by a terrible pro last January. I had been making good progress with another pro, but needed an emergency tune up for a winter golf break and my usual pro was away on holiday. I explained I just wanted a quick tune up to fix a wild hook and he basically tried to get me doing a stack and tilt as the solution. My golf break was ruined, I didn't know what I was going to do next when I was over the ball and ruined my season last year. The lesson here is find one that works well for you and stick with it.

Just found out Nick Moncur is back in the UK. He's a top drawer coach. Look at his website.

I had lessons from probably 10 different pros over the years and found no value from the lessons. I then turned to golf swings on Youtube and studied them. From that I was able to teach myself the swing and now have a 7 handicap, which could be lower but putting doesn't interest me very much. If you go on Youtube and search under douboug you will find my channel where in my favourites I have uploaded some videos of swings that I took at tournaments and some videos that others have taken as well. If you want a DVD that explains the swing well (and certainly a lot better than any other DVD that I have seen), go to smashgolfblog.com (in which I have no financial or other interest whatsoever) and order the DVD or at least read the postings. That blog explains a mechanically sound swing based on the swing of the late Mike Austin. In my view, the basic golf swing can be taught to a reasonably athletic person in a couple of hours if you know how to explain it properly.