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CONTROVERSY AND CONSPIRACY – IT’S ALL IN YOUR HEAD

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milkyboy
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Post by Derbymanc Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:25 am

The last couple of weeks have seen two massive fights come off that have had us all salivating but unfortunately both seem to have left a dark stain with a lot of fans.

Vasyl Lomanchenko won this weekends bout with the heavy handed Walters in what some class as a strange ending, Walters refusing to come out for the 8th round, this led to more than a few people dubbing it the 2nd No Mas incident and accusing the fighter of lacking the heart when the going gets rough.(In this case the tough didn’t get going)
Whilst I can understand the sentiment it does ignore the fact that Walters was being bullied around the ring (something he’s not used to) and looked out of his depth against the possible future p4p king.

Maybe him and/or his corner decided enough was enough, (we’ve all shouted about how someone should stop a fight at some point) and that there was nothing going to happen other than a prolonged beating and/or a brutal knockout.

Yes it’s a disappointment and there was a slight chance Walters could find that one punch but if his mind-set had turned to ‘survival’ then it was never going to happen and he could have been seriously hurt. Hopefully he’ll go away, reassess, rebuild and be back again in the future.

Seemingly to some the biggest controversy ever in boxing happened the week before when Andre Ward won a razor thin decision against the big punching Sergey Kovalev, although you’d be forgiven for thinking that he won 12 rounds without throwing a punch if you’ve wandered online to discuss it. I’m not really sure why it’s caused such an upset throughout the boxing community as there was 1 point in it and in my opinion it could have gone either way.

Despite not being much of a fan of Ward (I’ll be honest I find him boring,) I had him 1 or 2 up by the end BUT if it had been given to Kovalev, I wouldn’t have been complaining the way some have.

continued at http://www.topclassboxing.co.uk/Articles/controversy_and_conspiracy_its_all_in_your_head.html

I know i know, i don't normally put a few up but what can i say i got nowt better to do, next up is the joys of coaching :-)

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:16 am

You put up nice balanced articles. Fair play and I enjoy reading them. You don't like Ward, but you're not hammering him.

It was a close fight, but the debate has been done to death. People are still crying robbery in the Mayweather Pacquaio fight, so I doubt this will be different.

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Post by Derbymanc Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

Gotta be honest Adam I didn't really see the vitriol that some people have spouted on this one with the Pac May bout. I'm just hoping we have a rematch and it's as good as the first one (I enjoyed that)

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:27 am

You enjoyed May/Pac??

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Post by TopHat24/7 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:35 am

Like DeGale-Groves, if there's only a couple of rounds in it (90% of scorecards I've seen have it 2 rounds either way max, apart from Lederman) it's madness to call it a robbery. Pathetic too.

Trying to find a way to watch the Loma fight. Disappointing ending but meant to have been absolute poetry whilst it lasted....

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Post by Derbymanc Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:43 am

I did Adam, thought it was a cracking defensive display that if i'm honest, if i hadn't learnt about it on the coaching course i may have dismissed it as boring

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:45 am

Forget the scorecards and watch what Ward tries to get away with

That's the real robbery

Unless we agree that fouling (Ignoring the UNIFIED rules of boxing) is allowed in boxing and then I can agree with you

If you allow all that, I agree its a close fight as I said when we had the debate before

But I'm sorry I can't ignore it, because I believe in respecting the sport

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:45 am

Derbymanc wrote:I did Adam, thought it was a cracking defensive display that if i'm honest, if i hadn't learnt about it on the coaching course i may have dismissed it as boring

Glad to hear someone else wasn't let down, watching two tremendous boxers try and out think the other.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:45 am

Derbymanc wrote:I did Adam, thought it was a cracking defensive display that if i'm honest, if i hadn't learnt about it on the coaching course i may have dismissed it as boring

The May vs Pac was a highly technical matchup and very competitive

I have been trying to show people on this forum that for a long time

Its a great rewatch

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:47 am

Floyd won a lot easier than you think Kov did. There was no question he took at least 8 rounds. Though that debate has been done.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:49 am

AdamT wrote:Floyd won a lot easier than you think Kov did. There was no question he took at least 8 rounds. Though that debate has been done.

Even if you think Floyd wins 8 rounds, he didn't win "easy"

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:51 am

Ok

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Post by Derbymanc Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:52 am

It's no probs BF, as i said i still think Kov/Ward was close and don't argue either way, unfortunately holdings a part of the sport and they know that some get away with it more than others, Kov had no answer for it (rightly or wrongly) and with the ref not punishing it you can't take it into account when scoring (well you can but i didn't :-)

I think Floyd embarassed Manny as seen by the amount of excuse that did fly around (and seem to show their face every once in a while). It was in my eyes an absolute boxing clinic and from a technical standpoint (and I was still learning defensively at the time) was amazing. It's a shame that some people didn't see that but then again i'm not sure i would have if i hadn't been shown those aspects beforehand.

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:54 am

Derbymanc wrote:It's no probs BF, as i said i still think Kov/Ward was close and don't argue either way, unfortunately holdings a part of the sport and they know that some get away with it more than others, Kov had no answer for it (rightly or wrongly) and with the ref not punishing it you can't take it into account when scoring (well you can but i didn't :-)

I think Floyd embarassed Manny as seen by the amount of excuse that did fly around (and seem to show their face every once in a while). It was in my eyes an absolute boxing clinic and from a technical standpoint (and I was still learning defensively at the time) was amazing. It's a shame that some people didn't see that but then again i'm not sure i would have if i hadn't been shown those aspects beforehand.

Floyd did make him look pretty ordinary at times. Pac in 09 would of probably won with workrate. Though Floyd was much better then too, so who knows.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:56 am

Derbymanc wrote:It's no probs BF, as i said i still think Kov/Ward was close and don't argue either way, unfortunately holdings a part of the sport and they know that some get away with it more than others, Kov had no answer for it (rightly or wrongly) and with the ref not punishing it you can't take it into account when scoring (well you can but i didn't :-)

I think Floyd embarassed Manny as seen by the amount of excuse that did fly around (and seem to show their face every once in a while). It was in my eyes an absolute boxing clinic and from a technical standpoint (and I was still learning defensively at the time) was amazing. It's a shame that some people didn't see that but then again i'm not sure i would have if i hadn't been shown those aspects beforehand.

Holding and hitting isn't

Neither is headbutting, which was avoided by Kovalev at least 35 times

But you are right, if you score it based on what was allowed to go on then its a close fight, if they ain't called as fouls, then I agree its a close fight

But having seen it, its pretty bad, I wish I hadn't tbh

Re Pacquiao vs Mayweather, I strongly disagree with you and so do many people, other people agree with you lets just leave it at that, again unless you bring some evidence to the table you ain't gonna convince me that Pacquiao got schooled

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Post by Derbymanc Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:00 pm

I'd have Floyd winning 9 times out of 10, not to say Pac's no good as he is 2nd behind Floyd, just think it was (and is under appreciated) how good defensively he was.

I'd like to see Pac retire now as I think until he does the won't get the recognition either

It's no probs BF88, we've all got our own opinions and I respect yours as much as everyone else's. If we all saw things the same way we'd never have anything to discuss :-) and to be fair with so many people having the differing opinions (especially in regards to the Floyd fight) you can see why both are and should be considered greats of our time.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:02 pm

But surely it's not up to the judges to decide that Ward is fouling, but the referee? Allowing judges to simultaneously judge and referee a fight opens a whole new can of worms.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:03 pm

They are definitely the two greatest fighters I have ever seen and as much as Adam didn't realise I'm a Floyd and Manny fan, I haven't missed a single one of their fights since I started watching boxing in 2007

The only reason I interact is to try and learn something new

Don't sleep on Manny's defence as well, he was exceptional defensively that night as well


Last edited by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:03 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:But surely it's not up to the judges to decide that Ward is fouling, but the referee? Allowing judges to simultaneously judge and referee a fight opens a whole new can of worms.

Its not it is the referee, I think the judges can ignore Knockdown calls if the ref calls one and they can see its bs but don't quote me on that one

But you make a very good point, if the ref doesn't call it fouling, then they have to call it like it is

Kudos to you sir OK

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:30 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:They are definitely the two greatest fighters I have ever seen and as much as Adam didn't realise I'm a Floyd and Manny fan, I haven't missed a single one of their fights since I started watching boxing in 2007

The only reason I interact is to try and learn something new

Don't sleep on Manny's defence as well, he was exceptional defensively that night as well

I have watched Floyd since the 90's and Manny early 2000's. Floyd and Jones are the two best, then Manny in my eyes.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:56 pm

AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:They are definitely the two greatest fighters I have ever seen and as much as Adam didn't realise I'm a Floyd and Manny fan, I haven't missed a single one of their fights since I started watching boxing in 2007

The only reason I interact is to try and learn something new

Don't sleep on Manny's defence as well, he was exceptional defensively that night as well

I have watched Floyd since the 90's and Manny early 2000's. Floyd and Jones are the two best, then Manny in my eyes.

Adding Jones to the mix is a good point

He was a phenomenon as well, unreal athletic gifts

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:57 pm

He is unbelievable.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:59 pm

AdamT wrote:He is unbelievable.

Like I said he gets over looked because of all the loses after moving back down, but I don't really care about that, after he moved up to heavyweight he was already secure

I remember reading a BBC article back in the day, they had him as their number 10 greatest of all time on some lists

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:03 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:He is unbelievable.

Like I said he gets over looked because of all the loses after moving back down, but I don't really care about that, after he moved up to heavyweight he was already secure

I remember reading a BBC article back in the day, they had him as their number 10 greatest of all time on some lists

He might be the best I've ever seen. Not fundamentally, but his freaky speed and reflexes were sensational. He had power and full confidence in his ability too.

A man that started at 160 and became a 4 weight World champ. A f***ing unbelievable achievement.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:29 pm

Chin precludes him from the very top rank though

Or do we just ignore that now if we like a fighter?

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:35 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Chin precludes him from the very top rank though

Or do we just ignore that now if we like a fighter?

He was better than any fighter currently operating in any division, bar maybe Manny Pacquaio at his peak.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:36 pm

But in his prime he didn't get hit on the chin, so its a moot point

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:45 pm

So we just cherry pick the parts of a career we like and ignore the bits we don't now?

Far as I'm concerned Roy was bang in his prime when he got knocked out

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:48 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:So we just cherry pick the parts of a career we like and ignore the bits we don't now?

Far as I'm concerned Roy was bang in his prime when he got knocked out

Rolling Eyes

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:07 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:So we just cherry pick the parts of a career we like and ignore the bits we don't now?

Far as I'm concerned Roy was bang in his prime when he got knocked out

Did you watch him fight or are you just going by Boxrec because nobody can believe he was at his best when he started to lose and considering at his best he wasn't dropped your comment about his chin is a bit clueless.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:09 pm

Everyone knows that guys are not the same after moving a considerable amount of weight off

History tells us fighters are never the same

In fact I'm a bit worried for Brook if I'm honest

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:16 pm

Roy's win over Bernard doesn't quite have the sheen it did any more

Bernard played with by Kovalev and Bernard ducked Ward they're both a notch above Bernard

Ward can nullify Jones ala Griffin but Ward is a country mile ahead of Griffin and well in my honest opinion Kov has the best feet Jones will have seen and Roy can't stop Sergy let's put it that way..

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:39 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Roy's win over Bernard doesn't quite have the sheen it did any more

Bernard played with by Kovalev and Bernard ducked Ward they're both a notch above Bernard

Ward can nullify Jones ala Griffin but Ward is a country mile ahead of Griffin and well in my honest opinion Kov has the best feet Jones will have seen and Roy can't stop Sergy let's put it that way..

Can't he?

I thought he still punched hard at Light Heavy

Ward would have no chance against jones IMO

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Post by TopHat24/7 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:41 pm

a la Griffin? Behave.

The guy had decent success before cutting and running when RJJ started to get on top of him. Then got KTFO in the rematch.

Not sure I can even make sense of your second line....

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:03 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:a la Griffin? Behave.

The guy had decent success before cutting and running when RJJ started to get on top of him. Then got KTFO in the rematch.

Not sure I can even make sense of your second line....

That KO was an absolute peach

One of my favourite of all time

Like Lewis, its the ultimate revenge

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Post by milkyboy Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:25 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Roy's win over Bernard doesn't quite have the sheen it did any more

Bernard played with by Kovalev and Bernard ducked Ward they're both a notch above Bernard

Ward can nullify Jones ala Griffin but Ward is a country mile ahead of Griffin and well in my honest opinion Kov has the best feet Jones will have seen and Roy can't stop Sergy let's put it that way..

I've seen you spout this a couple of times recently hermy. You really suggesting kovalev beating a 50 year old Hopkins devalues jones beating Hopkins in his 20s? Really?

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:32 pm

We'll think about it for a second

Roy beat a green (for the sake of argument) Hopkins and Kovalev beat a Hopkins who had not too long gone taken apart a pre Kov Pascal

Not a lot between the two versions imo some say the older version the more wily just saying

But both good wins Roy's and Kovalev's doesn't diminish the win just puts it into perspective

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Post by milkyboy Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:11 pm

I thought about it for a second. It was a second longer than I needed. I don't know how old you are hermy, but there were 3 1/2 years between pascal 2 and kov. That's a lot for a guy in his 30's... but for one in his 40's? Regardless of that, He drew the first fight with pascal a year earlier. The idea that prime Hopkins wouldnt box pascals ears off is ridiculous.

There is an argument that Bernard hadn't learnt all his tricks when he fought Roy. But he fought and looked his age against kov. So, show me someone who thinks the near 50 year old version is better and I'll show you someone who dksab Very Happy

Berbick beating Ali doesn't put Tyson berbick or Ali foreman into perspective.

Kovalev was simply the best fighter Hopkins had fought since calzaghe, 6 1/2 years earlier... and he was past his prime then.

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:33 pm

Kovalev is very good and his power and super jabs are quite the weapons. I just don't see him landing on prime Roy.

I don't see Ward doing much with him either. He really was that talented. I think at his peak he was better than Floyd. Not defensively, but certainly offensively.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:37 pm

Let's see what Bernard does in his next fight shall we before we come to any conclusions because prior to Kovalev nobody was able to do that to him since Roy

Not as over the hill as you suggest when he boxed Kovalev, Milky. Kov just the style to beat Roy  for me but we'll never know

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:40 pm

Kovalev is very good, but you overrate him just a tad. I can think of two better fighters from Eastern Europe.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:44 pm

When I see him completely dominated then I'll accept i overrate him

Trouble is no one at 75 is able to do so if he beats Stevenson and Beteebiev then I'm right, if either of those two beat him then you're right

I didn't see Govozdyck the other day but some think he's good too so if Sergy beats those three then he's an exceptional light heavy imo

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:47 pm

Until Sergey beats Ward, he will rate behind him Imo.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:50 pm

Who are the two fighters from Eastern Europe that you rate ahead of him?

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:51 pm

GGG and Vasyl.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:53 pm

Yeah those are two decent operators all right. What about Usyk where do you rate him or do you need to see a bit more of him first?

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Post by AdamT Tue 29 Nov 2016, 5:54 pm

Definitely a bit more.

I do think Eastern fighters are becoming the best in the sport. Very fe w weaknesses in these guys.

Most have great amateur backgrounds.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:00 pm

I thought Kazakhstan was Asia but yes Eastern Europeans are taking over!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:01 pm

milkyboy wrote:I thought about it for a second. It was a second longer than I needed. I don't know how old you are hermy, but there were 3 1/2 years between pascal 2 and kov. That's a lot for a guy in his 30's... but for one in his 40's? Regardless of that, He drew the first fight with pascal a year earlier. The idea that prime Hopkins wouldnt box pascals ears off is ridiculous.

There is an argument that Bernard hadn't learnt all his tricks when he fought Roy. But he fought and looked his age against kov. So, show me someone who thinks the near 50 year old version is better and I'll show you someone who dksab Very Happy

Berbick beating Ali doesn't put Tyson berbick or Ali foreman into perspective.

Kovalev was simply the best fighter Hopkins had fought since calzaghe, 6 1/2 years earlier... and he was past his prime then.

Pretty much spot on, anybody suggesting that a 50 year old Hopkins is the equal or better of the version Jones beat is living in cloud cuckoo land.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:04 pm

You Jones fanboys eh..

He's a part of your childhood isn't he..

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