Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

Well the danger is always that life happens and he might refocus his entire life after two years in France.... were he to go.

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:Connacht are all but guaranteed 18pts so will go through.

Not if they get hammered in Toulouse they wont

They are on 13pts with Zebre to play in Galway.

Even if they lose to Toulouse they will finish on 18.

Given Toulouse play Wasps at the Ricoh they could be done at that stage, Connacht could yet win the pool.

All 3 could end up on 18 if Wasps hammer Toulouse in England and Toulouse hammer Connacht in France so not guaranteed 2nd place with 18 points

Good point!

Whichever team finishes 2nd in pool 2 will have a better points difference or tries scored than Ulster even if tied on 18 points. Ulster had 18 points last year and that wasn't enough to qualify, this year it could be higher. If Ulster scored two TBP wins they would have a decent chance of qualification, but they got out-muscled by both Bordeau and Exeter already this season so the chances of that are tiny.

The Great Aukster wrote:Whichever team finishes 2nd in pool 2 will have a better points difference or tries scored than Ulster even if tied on 18 points. Ulster had 18 points last year and that wasn't enough to qualify, this year it could be higher. If Ulster scored two TBP wins they would have a decent chance of qualification, but they got out-muscled by both Bordeau and Exeter already this season so the chances of that are tiny.

Exeter are out though and may not risk front line players and if Ulster beat Exeter and Clermont beat Bordeaux that means Bordeaux will be out and will probably do the same

Don't forget Ulster had the better of Bordeaux for most of the game over there then fell apart

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Whichever team finishes 2nd in pool 2 will have a better points difference or tries scored than Ulster even if tied on 18 points. Ulster had 18 points last year and that wasn't enough to qualify, this year it could be higher. If Ulster scored two TBP wins they would have a decent chance of qualification, but they got out-muscled by both Bordeau and Exeter already this season so the chances of that are tiny.

Exeter are out though and may not risk front line players and if Ulster beat Exeter and Clermont beat Bordeaux that means Bordeaux will be out and will probably do the same

Don't forget Ulster had the better of Bordeaux for most of the game over there then fell apart

I'd put money on the Ulster v Bordeaux game being a different story. We'll be better prepared and really up for the physical challenge they bring.......in theory.

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Whichever team finishes 2nd in pool 2 will have a better points difference or tries scored than Ulster even if tied on 18 points. Ulster had 18 points last year and that wasn't enough to qualify, this year it could be higher. If Ulster scored two TBP wins they would have a decent chance of qualification, but they got out-muscled by both Bordeau and Exeter already this season so the chances of that are tiny.

Exeter are out though and may not risk front line players and if Ulster beat Exeter and Clermont beat Bordeaux that means Bordeaux will be out and will probably do the same

Don't forget Ulster had the better of Bordeaux for most of the game over there then fell apart

I'd put money on the Ulster v Bordeaux game being a different story. We'll be better prepared and really up for the physical challenge they bring.......in theory.

That was the theory on Saturday too Pete, seems we were so prepared we were too relaxed about it

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Whichever team finishes 2nd in pool 2 will have a better points difference or tries scored than Ulster even if tied on 18 points. Ulster had 18 points last year and that wasn't enough to qualify, this year it could be higher. If Ulster scored two TBP wins they would have a decent chance of qualification, but they got out-muscled by both Bordeau and Exeter already this season so the chances of that are tiny.

Exeter are out though and may not risk front line players and if Ulster beat Exeter and Clermont beat Bordeaux that means Bordeaux will be out and will probably do the same

Don't forget Ulster had the better of Bordeaux for most of the game over there then fell apart

I'd put money on the Ulster v Bordeaux game being a different story. We'll be better prepared and really up for the physical challenge they bring.......in theory.

I agree Bordeaux in Belfast will be a different story, but not just for Ulster. It was only when BB realised they had to out-muscle Ulster that they changed their plan and won the game up front - next time they'll do that from the off.

In theory Exeter are no more out for round 5 than they were for round 4 and that didn't stop them putting in a performance in France. They and Baxter will still want a performance at Sandy Park so getting a result there will require bodies on the line with the possibly of a few being stretchered off.

Group 2 is almost certainly irrelevant to Ulsters chances of qualifying for the knock out stages as I indicated above.

If Leinster at home to Montpellier and Saracens at home to Toulon do the business we will almost certainly finish with more points than the 2 French sides

It is groups 3 and 4 to watch out for not Group 2
As for Bordeaux if they lose to Clermont they will not bother trying at Ravenhill, Exeters attitude is key to our chances

I agree. We are hoping that Leinster and Sarries win their games, and they should, and we manage to beat Exeter. I'm not so confident about that game though.

2 teams will definitely come out of Group 2 what I would dispute is that Connacht will be one of them.

They still need a performance in Toulouse - I'd say 50/50
Wasps are a shoe in

Wasps will win the group.

If Toulouse pick up a losing bonus point against Wasps then Connacht will need to either keep Toulouse to 4 points, while picking up a losing bonus point themselves. If Toulouse get nothing from their Wasp's game then all Connacht need is the losing bonus point. As it's a game that will see either side qualify, Toulouse will throw everything at them. Really tough game for Connacht.

Does anyone know where Notch is?
He hasn't posted in a while.

Pete330v2 wrote:Does anyone know where Notch is?
He hasn't posted in a while.

Hes in Panto as Widow Twanky

Haven't heard much from Nucifora recently maybe Notch took a trip to see him lol

Notch is Dan Touhy...?

Someone just told me there's a match tomorrow. It's against a club called Leinster. Is this true?

Are they coached by yer man Cockerill?

Nah Clive it's that one coached by the starsign

Wee P/Pienaar selected ahead of Herron.
Herron hasn't impressed? Or Marshall getting game time since he's our No1 SH next year???

Our backrow v their backrow. Will we even see any possession?
I have to stop this pessimistic stuff. We will win this.....

O'Brien, Van der Flier and Heaslip v Ross, Reidy and Wilson
No Ruan/Paddy partnership
Why the pessimism, Pete?

When Kiss took Wilson off last week, I thought it was because Les finally realised he was crap, but it turns out he was just saving him...

Why exactly did we put a full strength team out against a severely weakened Connacht yet put out a weakened team against a strong Leinster?

Surely it would have made more sense to at least rest some last week or have them on the bench if needs be and then start them this week?

Our full strength team couldn't get a home bonus point against a severely weakened Connacht side so Kiss puts out a weakened Ulster side away to a full strength Leinster?
The bookies have Leinster by 11. I'd be happily surprised if we could keep it that close.
That being said remember last year when we send our academy to play Mumster....or was that the previous year?

I seem to remember us doing it against Leinster too about 3 years ago when we played a load of inexperienced and fringe players and won

I know its to do with Player Management but why couldnt say Jackson be rested last week and come back this week and Best and Henry rested last week

I think the weather last week would have made a TBP hard going

Resting players against a weak Connacht side only increases the chances of them sneaking a win and in fairness, even our full strength side would struggle against Leinster right now.
It's a case of having one sure win from two or the high possibility of two losses.
Let's not do Connacht a disservice by suggesting Players like Paul Marshall, Roger, Clive Ross, herron could win against them, even weakened as they were.

Clive Im talking about going out to win both games not just one rather than testing players, given though that theres no news on Jackson signing a new contract yet and Pienaar going we may need to test Herron pretty soon though

Also what does it say to the players when selection is telling them that we need to be at full strength to beat what almost amounts to Connachts third string and we dont think we can win in Dublin? And we wonder why we play that way come play off time

I want to see calculated changes, what would we have lost last week having Herring start at 2? Having him and Best available this week would have given us some real strength this week and meant Rory could have recharged going into this week too

No thread for the match... Oh well, best of luck Ulster, hope ye get the win

No passion, Paul Marshall could not get on the team for any other AP or Pro 12 club. He should be released to reinforce to the IRFU how little quality we have at 9

Couldn't agree more with Marty's comments above. Players should have been rested last week. It's brainless. The current scoreline proves that right now. 17-0 and no obvious way for Ulster to do anything about it.

This is awful for Ulster, Paul Marshalls passing is woeful, guys are having to check their runs because hes playing it above, behind and below them

toml wrote:No passion, Paul Marshall could not get on the team for any other AP or Pro 12 club. He should be released to reinforce to the IRFU how little quality we have at 9

He's embarrassingly bad Tom but Irish qualified which will benefit Ulster and Ireland when he's our starting 9. No wait ....

toml wrote:No passion, Paul Marshall could not get on the team for any other AP or Pro 12 club. He should be released to reinforce to the IRFU how little quality we have at 9

Sure isn't that why they want rid of Poenaar? Stopping the progression of a 9 for Ulster and Ireland

Things would be easier for Ulster if Lacey was penalising Leinster for coming in from the side like he has Ulster, the only time he has was when they already had an advantage, at least one scrum should have seen a penalty for Ulster too and Triggs pulled down a maul right in front of him and nothing given

Plus why did no one get Tommy Bowe some gloves for xmas, seems his hand eye coordination isnt what it used to be

When will we be allowed to use the full vocabulary of the english language on this forum? There are words to describe this Ulster performance that would be very apt.

Twice Clive Ross butchered a two on one

Good grief this is some of the worst....

Piutau must be embarrassed to be playing among some of these...

Much better looking attack with Ruan at 9,
Simpson looked decent, Piatau on his own in the backs.

Paul Marshall should do the right thing and retire from pro rugby, he is like a rabbit in the headlights, he looked scared today and he can't seem to pass in front of his man. He should go and Play for Belfast Harlequins.

Think McCloskey was good in attack too, Cave was ok and Trimble was putting in big hits

The big thing is that Ulster can not seem to handle a fast and aggressive defence and tthst goes back to the training ground

Simpson seemed to stabilise the scrum when he came on and carried well which is a good sign

The annoying thing is that Leinster tank us with a bunch of children being stand out players for them. And we showcase our homegrown like Clive Ross and Paul Marshall and look embarrassing.
The IRFU seems to believe that if they force us to do without Pienaar, we will somehow just force ourselves to produce the talent Leinster does.
We were only ever capable of competing with Leinster (or others in Europe because we were supplementing with foreign talent).
Sad truth is Ulster home grown is as bad as ever. If we played an inter pro competition with IQ only, we might even come last of the four.
Ulster are in BIG BIG trouble as the NIQ quota decreases over the next few years.
100% agree that Ulster need to improve in bringing through talent. Just very strongly disagree that Pienaar is not the problem. Far from it.

Leinster had a strong side out. We didn't. That said, we are not a team, but a pathetic mess. Coaching is a joke, and the future is looking grim.

Only positive is that we managed to keep Leinster from a bonus point win.

We've become a side of individuals on the pitch waiting for the 2 or 3 players with and class or mindset to win games for us. We need to become a team again and that lies with the coaching.

Think Petes hit the nail on the head, individually very few were poor but theres no cohesion and theres no real link up play that will have teams thinking. It was all too easy to defend

I think it's the realisation that our squad is pretty poor and that we aren't producing a huge amount of new talent (in the pack especially) combined with our NIQ quota being reduced and Pienaar being taken away without even an OK replacement in sight.
Its all starting to worry me. Could be a long painful decline ahead, and players like Piutau and Coetzee will jump ship whether a renewal is allowed or not.
We will no longer convince anyone of substance to sign for this club in its current make up.

Its not so much not producing its not bloody using them especially in the pack. Would Simpson have played at all today if everyone wasnt injured? Warwick probably would have been the tighthead back up otherwise

We've locks and backrows who never see any game time in the first XV and we play a poor version of Wilson at 6 who apparently gets picked for his experience even though its of little use these days, we've played Reidy at 8 and hes done well but the long term gain is getting depth in the backrow and that involves playing young guys

Of the 13 Ulster forwards in the match, probably only Pete Browne would cause any sort of selection dilemma if they were lumped in with their Leinster counterparts. The usual witch hunt against Paul Marshall is laughable given that Ruan has also been struggling behind a marginally better pack most of the season.

The trouble is that's it's not the coaches denying academy players a chance - that would be easily rectified with an new coaching set-up. There may be one or two players who lost out but in general Ulster aren't producing the players at school's level. The evidence is manfest in Ulster's low representation at age grade levels. The evidence is also manifest in the inability of the Ulster clubs to compete in the highest levels of the AIL.

The Great Aukster wrote:Of the 13 Ulster forwards in the match, probably only Pete Browne would cause any sort of selection dilemma if they were lumped in with their Leinster counterparts. The usual witch hunt against Paul Marshall is laughable given that Ruan has also been struggling behind a marginally better pack most of the season.

The trouble is that's it's not the coaches denying academy players a chance - that would be easily rectified with an new coaching set-up. There may be one or two players who lost out but in general Ulster aren't producing the players at school's level. The evidence is manfest in Ulster's low representation at age grade levels. The evidence is also manifest in the inability of the Ulster clubs to compete in the highest levels of the AIL.

Can't argue with the under age representation logic. I would however counter with which youngsters you feel have looked massively out of their depth on debut? I can't really think of any. Sam Arnold wasn't amazing but was certainly passable - and was 18.

Almost to a man they've at least looked Pro12 level on their debuts. Contrast that with how few we've actually managed to push on after promising beginnings. 2nd and 3rd season syndromes. Case in point, Tommy Seymor. I always liked the look of Seymor, and while I understood why on a game by game basis he didn't get more minutes that sort of short term thinking has lead us to lose a player who is being touted for the B&I Lions. We haven't felt that loss because we're spoilt for choice in the backline but it doesn't make Ulster management failings in this area less. It speaks to some piss poor coaching that Glasgow and Scotland can get that out of him and yet he struggled to make our bench.

Indeed you could say that of many, many players. Bowe had to leave us to reach his potential, and I'd argue that Trimble looks twice the player he was since Schmidt has taken over Ireland. Would Jackson be the player he is without Pienaar's guidance? How many solely Ulster driven success stories can we point to from a coaching perspective?

The problem is across the board I'd say. Crap coaching from bottom to top.

Also, we've been very excited the past few seasons about our home grown centers, and yet the reality is that McCloskey, Olding and Marshall could all be behind Henshaw, Ringrose, Aki, Payne, Reid internationally over the next few seasons.

Redman wrote: Case in point, Tommy Seymor.  I always liked the look of Seymor, and while I understood why on a game by game basis he didn't get more minutes that sort of short term thinking has lead us to lose a player who is being touted for the B&I Lions.  We haven't felt that loss because we're spoilt for choice in the backline but it doesn't make Ulster management failings in this area less.  It speaks to some piss poor coaching that Glasgow and Scotland can get that out of him and yet he struggled to make our bench.  

Who was Seymour going to get minutes ahead of? The amount of wingers Ulster had before Seymour left meant someone was going to miss out somewhere, with Trimble and Danielli the preferred options at that time with guys like Smith and McCrea also there, Gilroy was the pick of the wingers coming through and there was also guys like Allen, Cochrane, Gaston too with Whitten who could also cover the wing

Glasgow were able to offer more game time plus a realistic shot at Scotland selection

Redman wrote:Indeed you could say that of many, many players.  Bowe had to leave us to reach his potential, and I'd argue that Trimble looks twice the player he was since Schmidt has taken over Ireland.  Would Jackson be the player he is without Pienaar's guidance?  How many solely Ulster driven success stories can we point to from a coaching perspective?

Bowe left like quite a few did around that time because Ulster were a mess at the time so he could well have reached his potential at Ulster and was already an established international when he left

Trimble was also a regular at international level and it was under Kidney he fell out of favour, Joe gave him him a few areas to work on and refined his game and to say he's twice the player is a bit disrespectful to him

Jacksons jobs made easier by having Pienaar in the team as anyones would be but he was tipped for big things at school and was running the attack at Ulster from early on

Redman wrote:The problem is across the board I'd say.  Crap coaching from bottom to top.  

Id agree about the coaching, especially in the forwards as they dont seem to know that they need to help out their team mates at the breakdown. Our scrum is inconsistent

clivemcl wrote:Also, we've been very excited the past few seasons about our home grown centers, and yet the reality is that McCloskey, Olding and Marshall could all be behind Henshaw, Ringrose, Aki, Payne, Reid internationally over the next few seasons.

Ulsters centres problem seems to be staying fit as much as anything as Olding and Marshall have been ahead of Reid in recent squads and Ringrose only to miss out through injury.

The summer tour will be telling though if everyones fit as to who Joe sees as his preferred options going forward

The summer tour will though be influenced this time by potential Lions selections choosing Joe's preferred options for him.

Angus Lloyd (on loan from Ulster) is staying with Munster until the end of the season. He should get a good bit of game time with Munster as he is now 3rd in the pecking order behind Murray and Duncan Williams.