The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Page 6 of 21 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 21  Next

Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by GunsGermsV2 Fri 13 Jan 2017, 12:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

GunsGermsV2

Posts : 2550
Join date : 2016-11-15

Back to top Go down


Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Scottrf Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:19 pm

He's differentiating between 'deliberately losing games' and not making every effort (or using every tactic) in order to win.

Scottrf

Posts : 14268
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:39 pm

Not really what I would say is sacrificing but still terrible coaching.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:47 pm

Farrell is a better goal kicker than Halfpenny.

Hammersmith harrier

Posts : 12060
Join date : 2013-09-26

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by TJ Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:51 pm

So for 10 for the lions can we have Farrells steadfastness with Biggars kicking from hand and Russells ability to do magic tricks with the ball?


TJ

Posts : 7940
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:53 pm

Farrell is better from hand than Biggar. Ford better than both. Russel doesn't do magic tricks.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is better from hand than Biggar. Ford better than both. Russel doesn't do magic tricks.

I don't know. Have you seen his bird?

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 16647
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 40
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by TJ Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:59 pm

7 1/2 - have you watched the Racing games? He bamboozled the opposition and they just didn't know what he was going to do with his magic tricks ( Ok clever 10 plays)

TJ

Posts : 7940
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:00 pm

Yup watched it. He's not a magician. Given you downplayed Farrell cutting through Scarlets and setting up tries maybe you just built it up too much?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by TJ Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:02 pm

Did you not think it was a great display of rugby from him tho?

TJ

Posts : 7940
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:07 pm

He's a good player. I guess I'm expecting too much. I mean Farrell pulls Saracens out of the fire and it's ignored or explained away and it's simply a stock solid fly half display.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by the-goon Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:09 pm

TJ wrote:7 1/2 - have you watched the Racing games?  He bamboozled the opposition and they just didn't know what he was going to do with his magic tricks ( Ok clever 10 plays)

So 2 games is sufficient to build up Russell, and 1 game (if you ignore all the good things he did in it) sufficient to write off play down (better choice of words) Farrell?

This is the Racing who are 9th in the top 14 and last in the ERC group? Wow, stop the presses.

Why not cherry pick any of the games Farrell has been instrumental in Saracens' ERC and Prem titles (at 10) or England's 14 wins in a row (from 10 and mainly 12)? That also included beating Racing in the REC final, and beating them well.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is laughable. I think you still think he is the same player as he was in 2012.

the-goon

Posts : 801
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by TJ Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:13 pm

The goon - give me a game to watch where Farrell was instrumental at 10 ( against top opposition) and I'll watch it. I'll happily eat humble pie on here if I see something different

I'll keep on saying tho - what he does is very good, its what he is unable to do that means to me he will not be a ten I think worth a lions place

And please note I have said over and over again Russell is not lions material - too inconsitent and too many mistakes and needs players around him familiar with his game

TJ

Posts : 7940
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:16 pm

There's just been a game where he makes dummies, breaks which create tries and saves the game for Saracens yet you say you didn't see the incidents despite watching the whole game. May be easier to explain what you want to see him doing.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by rodders Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:19 pm

Look can we please keep the Irish and Scots out of this sham, especially as Gats has no intention of picking any anyways.

I suggest we henceforth rename the B&I Lions to the Alun wyn Jones Anglo-Welsh Wildcats to show some respect to the great Lions of yesteryear.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 40

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by beshocked Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:20 pm

Agree with no 7 & 1/2.

Farrell assisted in both Ashton's tries.

Only need to watch the brief highlights on the Sarries website to see that.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Scottrf Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:22 pm

rodders wrote:Look can we please keep the Irish and Scots out of this sham, especially as Gats has no intention of picking any anyways.

I suggest we henceforth rename the B&I Lions to the Alun wyn Jones Anglo-Welsh Wildcats to show some respect to the great Lions of yesteryear.
Are you real or a parody account?

Scottrf

Posts : 14268
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by True Raven Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is better from hand than Biggar. Ford better than both. Russel doesn't do magic tricks.
laughing

True Raven

Posts : 1011
Join date : 2015-12-27

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:27 pm

They are. Don't particularly rate Biggar s kicking from hand at all.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by SecretFly Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:28 pm

rodders wrote:Look can we please keep the Irish and Scots out of this sham, especially as Gats has no intention of picking any anyways.

I suggest we henceforth rename the B&I Lions to the Alun wyn Jones Anglo-Welsh Wildcats to show some respect to the great Lions of yesteryear.

laughing

Stop making fun of the Institution!  Don't you know grown men still cry when told of the Elephant hunting antics of yonder B&W heros of Lions yesteryears!

I do though think The Alun Wyn Jones Acrobatic Travelling Welsh and Token Scot Poolside Bum'n'Towel Jamboree is probably easier on the tongue though.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What exactly did you mean then miaow by willing to sacrifice?  

Not "deliberately lose a game".

He's shown himself willing to keep his tactical hand close to his chest, and let the result take care of itself, rather than absolutely trying to win every single game, instead targeting "important" ones (an attitude that would see him quickly removed from All Blacks Head Coach if he were to repeat it there, incidentally).

Placing less emphasis on the win by not preparing you team as best as possible when there's a more important game on the horizon is nothing new. It happens regularly in football when managers field weakened teams in cup games, and it infuriates fans as it is devaluing a competition as well as hindering your own side. But coaches see the bigger picture, and the bigger prize, and don't see it this way, and see it as a benefit. Hence why many fans are conflicted.

In the 2015 6 Nations in particular, there's no doubt he would have wanted to win the tournament, but he wasn't going to do that by overly impacting on the RWC chances. He did only fitness drills, trying to get the players into adequate physical shape as much as he could so there would be less of a leap come the Summer. Tactically, it's a risk to hope you'll "get it right on the night" by tinkering in the Summer before a RWC, but it is exactly what he did in 2011 quite dramatically, and though the overhaul was less so in 2015, there was a marked tactical difference between the 6 Nations and the RWC. This is partly because the Welsh squad and players have honed his basic principles fairly well, and it's then only necessary to slightly deviate from historical performances, and focus upon tactics that are specifically made for your opponents, in this case England and Australia.

It's a sacrifice, no doubt, but not a total one, and certainly not "deliberately losing" games, as that would call into account his credibility.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:30 pm

TJ wrote:So for 10 for the lions can we have Farrells steadfastness with Biggars kicking from hand and Russells ability to do magic tricks with the ball?


Dan Parks then?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by SecretFly Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:30 pm

Scottrf wrote:
rodders wrote:Look can we please keep the Irish and Scots out of this sham, especially as Gats has no intention of picking any anyways.

I suggest we henceforth rename the B&I Lions to the Alun wyn Jones Anglo-Welsh Wildcats to show some respect to the great Lions of yesteryear.
Are you real or a parody account?

Unfortunately, he's 101% real. He shows despicable levels of disrespect to our great game and probably deserves a public whipping. But Brussels bloody well banned a damn good thrashing for his kind.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by beshocked Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:34 pm

The bigger prize? Wales didn't win a trophy for beating England in the RWC.

They failed to defeat Australia or SA. The sacrifice wasn't worth it.

It's a problem when a 47% win ratio is lauded.

Supposedly Gatland wins the big games. Australia,NZ and SA seem to have not got the message....

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by True Raven Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:They are. Don't particularly rate Biggar s kicking from hand at all.

I just think its hilarious how much of a hypocrite you are.

This thread has now been hijacked by people having a go at TJ because he doesnt rate Farrell and then you decide to make a statement and favour your countrys fly halfs over others without any facts to back that statement up

True Raven

Posts : 1011
Join date : 2015-12-27

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by the-goon Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:42 pm

TJ wrote:The goon - give me a game to watch where Farrell was instrumental at 10 ( against top opposition) and I'll watch it.  I'll happily eat humble pie on here if I see something different

I'll keep on saying tho - what he does is very good, its what he is unable to do that means to me he will not be a ten I think worth a lions place

And please note I have said over and over again Russell is not lions material - too inconsitent and too many mistakes and needs players around him familiar with his game

Here's a nice break that sets up a try. Away to Ulster, not too shabby. Won with a BP as well. They were better then than Racing are now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJD94045awo

He was class in all 3 of the England games in Aus (and played 10 in one of them), they would be good places to start.

FH play isn't all about show-boating, flash plays and line breaks. It's about game management, playing in the right areas, executing the game plan, bringing others into play, defence (tackling and management) as well as being a threat yourself. Farrell is good in all and exceptional in others. Quality player. X factor is great, but these are the basics. You don't pick a prop who can't scrummage no matter how good around the park, same for your 10.

If Sexton isn't fit or playing well, Farrell starts in my opinion.

the-goon

Posts : 801
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:45 pm

beshocked wrote:The bigger prize? Wales didn't win a trophy for beating England in the RWC.

They failed to defeat Australia or SA. The sacrifice wasn't worth it.

It's a problem when a 47% win ratio is lauded.

Supposedly Gatland wins the big games. Australia,NZ and SA seem to have not got the message....

We've beaten SA the last two times we've played them in the Autumn internationals. Whistle

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:48 pm

Just reading down through the last page or so of this thread I am beginning to be quite corncerned that New Zealand are going into this test series somewhat underpowered at first five eight, you (The Lions) seem to have so many available number 10s of International standard, whereas we only have Cruden, Barrett and Sopoaga.

aucklandlaurie

Posts : 7527
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 64
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by the-goon Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:Just reading down through the last page or so of this thread I am beginning to be quite corncerned that New Zealand are going into this test series somewhat underpowered at first five eight, you (The Lions) seem to have so many available number 10s of International standard, whereas we only have Cruden, Barrett and Sopoaga.

Yeah, if we could pick all our options it would be 60 v 15... Would be still win?

the-goon

Posts : 801
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by beshocked Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:53 pm

Griff wrote:
beshocked wrote:The bigger prize? Wales didn't win a trophy for beating England in the RWC.

They failed to defeat Australia or SA. The sacrifice wasn't worth it.

It's a problem when a 47% win ratio is lauded.

Supposedly Gatland wins the big games. Australia,NZ and SA seem to have not got the message....

We've beaten SA the last two times we've played them in the Autumn internationals. Whistle

Gatland wasn't in charge in one of them.

His record vs South Africa is played 11 - won 1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Gatland

His record is not that impressive.

Sorry 47% was for Ireland, 50% is his welsh record.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 18 Jan 2017, 3:59 pm

the-goon wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Just reading down through the last page or so of this thread I am beginning to be quite corncerned that New Zealand are going into this test series somewhat underpowered at first five eight, you (The Lions) seem to have so many available number 10s of International standard, whereas we only have Cruden, Barrett and Sopoaga.

Yeah, if we could pick all our options it would be 60 v 15... Would be still win?

 Winning?? I'm not worried about winning,I'm more worried about how we'are going to feed them all.

aucklandlaurie

Posts : 7527
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 64
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by the-goon Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:02 pm

True Raven wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They are. Don't particularly rate Biggar s kicking from hand at all.

I just think its hilarious how much of a hypocrite you are.

This thread has now been hijacked by people having a go at TJ because he doesnt rate Farrell and then you decide to make a statement and favour your countrys fly halfs over others without any facts to back that statement up

Bit harsh.

Kicking from hand is pretty hard to judge statistically. Are there even stats of kicks out on the full, missed touch on pens, poor up and unders, and kicks that didn't hit grass, allowed easy counter attacks, etc...

It's prob one of the most subjective skills I can think of, so many factors come into it. Was it the right decision to kick, what type of kick was attempted, was it executed well, ok, poorly, etc...

Also, judging Farrell's kicking vs Biggar is mutually exclusive to defending him against someone who he disagrees with. Unless, he is accussing TJ of not rating OF based on nationality, and then not rating DB based on nationality... I don't think this is the case with either poster, well I can't see it.

the-goon

Posts : 801
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by TJ Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:02 pm

miaow wrote:
TJ wrote:So for 10 for the lions can we have Farrells steadfastness with Biggars kicking from hand and Russells ability to do magic tricks with the ball?


Dan Parks then?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

TJ

Posts : 7940
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:04 pm

So again miaow a terrible coach if he isn't preparing his teams sufficiently. Sacrificing which is giving up the win before the game even starts sounds like deliberately losing to me. In reality he does neither.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:09 pm

What facts are available to judge the quality of kicking from hand Raven? What for instance would you use to say that Biggar is better as I assume you believe that to be the case?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by the-goon Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:10 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
the-goon wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Just reading down through the last page or so of this thread I am beginning to be quite corncerned that New Zealand are going into this test series somewhat underpowered at first five eight, you (The Lions) seem to have so many available number 10s of International standard, whereas we only have Cruden, Barrett and Sopoaga.

Yeah, if we could pick all our options it would be 60 v 15... Would be still win?

 Winning?? I'm not worried about winning,I'm more worried about how we'are going to feed them all.

Don't you have more sheep than people??

the-goon

Posts : 801
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:10 pm

beshocked wrote:The bigger prize? Wales didn't win a trophy for beating England in the RWC.

They failed to defeat Australia or SA. The sacrifice wasn't worth it.

It's a problem when a 47% win ratio is lauded.

Supposedly Gatland wins the big games. Australia,NZ and SA seem to have not got the message....

Son of God you're hard work!

No, they didn't win a prize. Nor did England win a prize for beating Wales in the 2015 Six Nations. Not everything has to have a "prize", there's a spectrum of success, not a binary of success or failure.

In beating England, at home, in their own World Cup, that's some achievement. To then, for all intents and purposes, lay down the foundation to go on and beat Australia by taking them on at the set piece, particularly the lineout, to top the group and therefore have a much easier passage to the final, would it have been worth sacrificing giving away tactical details for those two teams to analyse from their 2015 6 Nations performance? When the alternative is 3rd in the group and Gatland potentially fired, no. I'm not going to repeat that point, it's so obvious.

Now, I'd like to think that Wales practice situations where they have slow ball in the opposition 22, even camped on the opposition's line, and are able to engineer a try scoring opportunity. I'd particularly hope that such prepared tactics become significantly easier when the opposition has two fewer players than you, and even then, that the players are able enough to score without the need of a strike move with a two man advantage. That they completely failed to get over the line during that period in the game is a failure of the attack, absolutely. But there are other failures too, not least psychological, leadership, individual and collective responsibility on the pitch. Ultimately, Wales lost to Australia, as did England, but there is a big difference between the manner and circumstances of that defeat, and Gatland's coaching- though not absolved completey- is certainly less at fault for the loss than Lancaster's preparation of his players against the same opposition.

Was it worth it when they came so close to topping a group (with all that comes with it) that going into it you could argue they were being touted to finish third? To you, no. That's fine. You're being absolute about the bottom line, results game business of rugby, which is easy to do when your own nation is holding a trophy.

I'm trying to suggest to you that Gatland has done with a Welsh team that, although talented, is at a serious systemic disadvantage compared to a lot of countries in world rugby, and in a more immediate sense, hasn't had the kind of talent come through that appeared twelve years ago, and then again roughly six years ago, to reinvigorate the team. I'm trying to show you how even his failures have been marginal, and have to take into consideration the expectations and limitations of the side he manages. I'm also then trying to explain how- with the Lions- he has been successful, bottom line successful, winning a trophy! He's been relatively consistent in that, and whilst he and his sides have had up and downs, he hasn't done too badly. Eddie Jones and Schmidt have certainly stumbled in their coaching careers, and because Jones hasn't had that yet with England, people are expecting what has been a successful twelve months or so to continue. That's fine, but proof is surely better than potential, and Gatland has the best proof available to the Lions at present.

Could Gatland lose touch, his methodology become obsolete? Yes, of course. Could he get in drastically wrong in NZ and see his chances of the All Blacks job disappear into thin air? Yes. Has he started to swtich his attention away from Wales after 10 years in what has been a fairly difficult job, rife with in fighting and frustration, a mix of successes and near missess? Yes, this is undoubtedly true, and perhaps it's harsh to blame him, even though there may be a post-Ferguson effect with Wales once he leaves if the WRU is complacent in his successor.

But he's definitely a big game coach, and has- within the bounds of likelihood and possibility- repeatedly done well with a Welsh team that is certainly not so talented that they should be expecting to win the 6Ns more frequently, or progress further in RWCs, than they have. It's fair enough to hold your hands up and say "fine, Wales looked shot against South Africa having thrown so much into two big group games, and didn't have the physical strength nor stamina to hold on". That South Africa team then went on to lose to NZ by two points. But the Welsh team was vastly better in the Autumn of 2015 than it was in the Spring. That was even more obvious in 2011, where most people thought Gatland was on his way out (Shaun Edwards was!), only for it to be the second coming with Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau et al. down in NZ.

Gatland tried consistency with Wales. He tried it in the early years, but realised he didn't have the personnel, realised the mindset of even old pro's like Martyn Williams and Ryan Jones lacked something when it came to the SANZAR teams, which is what he repeatedly focused on, getting a win against those teams during the Autumn, making a statement. The stand off against NZ felt seminal in that it was so atypically Welsh, and we loved the team and Gatland for it, for making us believe. But it didn't last, partly because we couldn't beat them, and Wales couldn't maintain their standards in the Six Nations, Summer Tours, and Autumn Internationals. I think he almost embraced a culture so used to boom and bust, and used it to his advantage: he had money in the bank with the Welsh support. Love it or hate it, bemoan it as bad coaching, but the Welsh team has improved dramatically from the Six Nations before a RWC to the RWC itself, and I don't feel like that is coincidental.

He's not perfect, every Welsh fan would love to have beaten the SANZAR countries more frequently, and would have loved us to get further in the 2015 WC, as it did feel like a ''last chance" for this generation (most people see a wilderness coming for Welsh rugby), but you don't just denigrate Gatland's whole history as Wales coach because he could have won more. I'm not a staunch fan, and have many criticisms, or preferences, for the way Wales- and how the Lions will- play, but guess what? We don't know better than Gatland, beshocked.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:18 pm

miaow wrote:Most people see a wilderness coming for Welsh rugby

Do they? That's the first I've heard of it.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 24458
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 42
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by PhilBB Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:20 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:Most people see a wilderness coming for Welsh rugby

Do they? That's the first I've heard of it.

There'll be an Oasis if the WRU get rid of Gatland and co.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5559
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So again miaow a terrible coach if he isn't preparing his teams sufficiently. Sacrificing which is giving up the win before the game even starts sounds like deliberately losing to me. In reality he does neither.

I know you and I (well, you...) have had issue with the English language before. I have therefore taken the liberty of referring to the dictionary definition of "sacrifice", where- as you will hopefully see- it does not suggest said meaning is that of "giving up a win before the game even starts".

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy:

If there was any ambiguity over my usage of the word sacrifice, it's better to check before assuming your interpretation to be correct. I quickly corrected you that you had misunderstood what I meant by sacrifice; to continue to infer something different is the behaviour of a wind up merchant.

To conclude: the something more important in the definition is the World Cup. The thing being given up is total dedication to winning the Six Nations, particularly against a team who will be in your World Cup group, and when doing so hinders your chances in said World Cup because you reveal too much of your intended tactics. If you deem that terrible coaching, and insufficient preparation of a team, please, join beshocked in the armchair-coached, fantasy Rugby world that exists in his head.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by SecretFly Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:Most people see a wilderness coming for Welsh rugby

Do they? That's the first I've heard of it.

There'll be an Oasis if the WRU get rid of Gatland and co.

Still more purges needed?

Just how many individuals have to fall on their sword before Welsh rugby is back alive and kicking? It seems, according to some, there is always one more sticky-clingy guy that needs to be unglued from Welsh rugby before the true renaissance can kick in. Always another guy.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:36 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:Most people see a wilderness coming for Welsh rugby

Do they? That's the first I've heard of it.

Some people. Take the hostility shown to Howley, and then remove the filter that is there because he's only a temporary Head Coach, and what do you have? A return to the provincial, political infighting and underachieving Welsh national team that seemed to be a perennial fixture not so long ago. This isn't the thread for it, but I do think Welsh rugby as we know it is under threat.

PhilBB wrote:There'll be an Oasis if the WRU get rid of Gatland and co.

Who's co. though? And what happens if Dai Young doesn't want the Wales job!? Less land of milk and honey, more cast out of Eden.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:40 pm

You've just posted a definition saying it's giving up.something valued ie a win vs England though.

It would take some sort of genius to realise Lancaster and England would alter their game so much and suffer an injury to their best midfielder leading to the stodge we had that game.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:47 pm

There is a difference between not focusing/caring about victory above all else, and deliberately trying to lose a game.

There is a difference in value between beating England in the Six Nations, and beating them in the World Cup.

There is a difference between witholding your own intended tactics for the game of more value, and 'predicting' the other team's future tactics.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sacrifice

Why are you unable to accept what I said? Do you have trust issues?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by LordDowlais Wed 18 Jan 2017, 4:55 pm

There is an awful lot of bitterness aimed towards the Lions, Warren Gatland and Welsh players on this thread. chin

LordDowlais

Posts : 14892
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:06 pm

I get that now it was a misunderstanding really in what you meant by Gatland willingly giving up a game against England in an attempt to winning the 6Ns to try and win the WC. Ie not sacrificing the game but holding back. Totally disagree as Gatland is a much better coach than to not prepare his teams sufficiently to win even if you don't agree with his tactics.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by SecretFly Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:There is an awful lot of bitterness aimed towards the Lions, Warren Gatland and Welsh players on this thread. chin

???

FFS, people need to lighten up on here.

...Somebody is taking this all a little too seriously, and to heart, might I add. Very Happy

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by George Carlin Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:34 pm

Jesus, these threads are depressing.

My dad is bigger than all of your dads.
George Carlin
George Carlin
Admin
Admin

Posts : 15036
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by George Carlin Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:43 pm

beshocked wrote:
Griff wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Not directed at any individuals in particular but it's absolutely crystal clear that a number of people here are commenting on players they have never seen play in a full game more than 4 times. I understand that's the nature of this because you can only watch so much rugby (and I watch far too much) but it really makes me hope to hell that the Lions selectors are more comprehensive in their approach.

It must be incredibly galling for players to be subject to the whims of coaches and selectors if it is clear that they also come tottering under the weight of their own individual agendas and see only what they wish to.


I find this is directly related to nationality though.  For all of those pushing the case for Russell, for example, it tends to be those same people playing down the merits of players like Farrell.  And vice versa for those pushing Farrell over Russell, etc.  So it probably comes down to who you watch more!  Familiarity with their skill set and memories of the good things they've done.  

Russell has his merits. I watched Glasgow vs Racing Metro - Russell deserved to be MOTM. He's an exciting player but it's not enough.

It's funny because I don't see the Lions 10 shirt as Russell vs Farrell.

I see it as Sexton vs Ford.
I think that one either drinks the Ford Kool-Aid or one doesn't Beshocked.

I personally don't see it.

Two of the very few positions in the backline that I think must be nailed on are 12 Henshaw and 13 Joseph and I would not lose either of those two in order to accommodate Farrell at 12 in the same way that he plays for England. Fekitoa would run through him all day. I would never, ever play specialists out of position and both Ford and Farrell play at 10 for their club.

It's between Farrell and Sexton for me. The jury is still out on Biggar, in my view. He's either brilliant or completely invisible.
George Carlin
George Carlin
Admin
Admin

Posts : 15036
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Guest Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get that now it was a misunderstanding really in what you meant by Gatland-

No no, I'll stop you there.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:02 pm

You meant sacrificing a better chance to win the game (in Gatland opinion) rather than willingly sacrificing the game itself. He wouldn't willingly lose a game for the hope of a better showing in the future.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23477
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about - Page 6 Empty Re: Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 21 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 21  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum