Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

BOD after putting Gats in Hospital! It's official. Gats was in Ireland to promote the Lions tour but it turned sour when the two men met unexpectedly at the same event.

15. Stuart Hogg

Sgt_Pooly wrote:15. Stuart Hogg

By a very large margin

You guys might want to consider Ben Te'o, could also be a saving in accomodation costs, as he could stay at his Mums house.

Hogg and Jonny Gray must be front runners for their positions at the moment

Yep, I'd like to think so, tigertattie.

Did anyone play themselves out of contention? I missed parts of the game, but Best didn't seem to have a great game with the darts from what I saw? Only one game though I suppose.

Griff wrote:Yep, I'd like to think so, tigertattie.

Did anyone play themselves out of contention? I missed parts of the game, but Best didn't seem to have a great game with the darts from what I saw? Only one game though I suppose.

Connor Murray did not do much to enhance his position in the Lions.

Griff wrote:Yep, I'd like to think so, tigertattie.

Did anyone play themselves out of contention? I missed parts of the game, but Best didn't seem to have a great game with the darts from what I saw? Only one game though I suppose.

Not been great for a while. Didn't realise but Ireland had the worst lineout in the last six nations. Worse than italys

nathan wrote:

Griff wrote:Yep, I'd like to think so, tigertattie.

Did anyone play themselves out of contention? I missed parts of the game, but Best didn't seem to have a great game with the darts from what I saw? Only one game though I suppose.

Not been great for a while. Didn't realise but Ireland had the worst lineout in the last six nations. Worse than italys

Wasn't Best being touted as potential lions captain though quite recently?

Hartley was pulled off after 55 mins. He's not even the best English hooker yet people touted him as the lions no 2

Also ford was anonymous, and with Farrell and sexton already on the plane, I wouldn't be disappointed if someone else was the third 10 as he's pretty ordinary to me

True Raven wrote:Hartley was pulled off after 55 mins.  He's not even the best English hooker yet people touted him as the lions no 2

He is often subbed around that time. It is not uncommon for other hookers to be subbed then either

A lot of people going overboard after just one game.

Hartley has just returned from a ban and is often subbed around the hour mark as are the majority of front rows, Dan Cole is the only one who occasionally plays the full 80.

Ford wasn't great but the team was lacking it's usual physicality because of injuries, Haskell will be starting next week I imagine enabling Itoje back at 5 which will be a big help at the breakdown. Itoje is a fantastic player but doesn't quite have it for the back row, much like Lawes years ago.

Hogg and Gray(J) look nailed on. Maybe Furlong could be a bolter but no one else from Ireland look up to it. Greg Laidlaw made his case as did Maitland and Elliot Daly looks to be a clever pick,

I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Based on what I saw,

Scotland: Hogg and J Gray are inked in. Laidlaw, Richie Gray, Hamish Watson, Dunbar and Huw Jones moved themselves up the pecking order.

Ireland - Furlong looks like a tight head for the next couple of tours at least. Best did himself no favours with some erratic throwing.

England: Well, we know Itoje won't be at 6 for the Lions. Moving up the pecking order are Billy Vunipola and Chris Robshaw (well, we sure as hell missed them). Haskell's cameo off the bench was impressive. Actually thought Marler did pretty well - scrummed against Godzilla for the first 50 and still had the energy and speed to make a couple of good cover tackles in open field.
Youngs and Ford probably slipped a bit.

I dont think this England performance did anything for anyone's Lions case, perhaps Itoje at lock and Farrell but the rest were indifferent. Hartley is certainly no lions skipper but Best was equally poor.

Agreed, it was a very subdued performance from England. The only players to have any real positive impact on the game were the 3 subs....Haskell, George and Te'o.

Best has poor darts which has been mentioned a number of times on this thread. He only backed this theory up yesterday.

I thought Furlong and Henshaw for Ireland enhanced their reputation yesterday with Hogg and Laidlaw impressing for Scotland.

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Agree with the posts above - all good fun, but the rest of the tournament is still to come, followed by the European games where a lot of 6N players will be involved.

This is just the start and any team can have a poor game. What I do think is maybe more likely now is that some Scottish players will be given due consideration rather than just lip service.

Laidlaw would make a good captain for the midweek side

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Where's the harm in people saying who improved their chances for the tour and who didn't. It's a discussion forum ffs

Because you called Ford ordinary after probably watching him for the first time.

True Raven wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Where's the harm in people saying who improved their chances for the tour and who didn't.  It's a discussion forum ffs

I called ford ordinary on this thread long before the six nations started.  

Farrell at 12 hides fords weaknesses in my opinion and I think Farrell is a superior player to him.

And in answer to Griffs post about who took their chances and who didn't I mentioned ford

dummy_half wrote:Based on what I saw,

Scotland: Hogg and J Gray are inked in. Laidlaw, Richie Gray, Hamish Watson, Dunbar and Huw Jones moved themselves up the pecking order.

Ireland - Furlong looks like a tight head for the next couple of tours at least. Best did himself no favours with some erratic throwing.

England: Well, we know Itoje won't be at 6 for the Lions. Moving up the pecking order are Billy Vunipola and Chris Robshaw (well, we sure as hell missed them). Haskell's cameo off the bench was impressive. Actually thought Marler did pretty well - scrummed against Godzilla for the first 50 and still had the energy and speed to make a couple of good cover tackles in open field.
Youngs and Ford probably slipped a bit.

Hogg and J Gray were already inked in for the squad. It is far too early to say they are inked in for the starting team. That applies especially to Gray. Of England's two best locks one was playing (unsuccessfully) out of position at blindside and one was injured. AWJ has not even played yet.

I am not sure Billy V moved up the pecking order as I suspect he was at the top of it already. Marler did okay as you say but we missed Mako's carrying ability.

True Raven wrote:

True Raven wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Where's the harm in people saying who improved their chances for the tour and who didn't.  It's a discussion forum ffs

I called ford ordinary on this thread long before the six nations started.  

Farrell at 12 hides fords weaknesses in my opinion and I think Farrell is a superior player to him.

And in answer to Griffs post about who took their chances and who didn't I mentioned ford

Ford is excellent in a team with front foot ball and with a none who gives good service. Neither applied yesterday. In a match like yesterday's Farrell is far superior.

I have long thought Dan Robson was England's best scrum half and deserves a chance. Youngs showed all his old weaknesses yesterday and has been poor all season.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

The Lions debate is a living debate and as such will be commented on after every game, personally I see nothing wrong with that. Undoubtedly after the Wales match, further comments and conclusions will be drawn about possible Lions starters.

Hogg again proved that he is the best 15 in the NH, his attacking and defensive qualities put him in front, that may change after today with 1/2p. In fairness though, I feel that Liam Williams is in much better form at 15 than 1/2p and would have been in direct competition with Hogg.

Exiledinborders wrote:

True Raven wrote:

True Raven wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Where's the harm in people saying who improved their chances for the tour and who didn't.  It's a discussion forum ffs

I called ford ordinary on this thread long before the six nations started.  

Farrell at 12 hides fords weaknesses in my opinion and I think Farrell is a superior player to him.

And in answer to Griffs post about who took their chances and who didn't I mentioned ford

Ford is excellent in a team with front foot ball and with a none who gives good service. Neither applied yesterday. In a match like yesterday's Farrell is far superior.

I have long thought Dan Robson was England's best scrum half and deserves a chance. Youngs showed all his old weaknesses yesterday and has been poor all season.

Except during the AI's when he was one of our best players.... His form is always somewhat confusing

I do think Hogg is pressing his case about as well as he can. There's still 4 more six nations rounds, training sessions and warm ups to go though

lostinwales wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

True Raven wrote:

True Raven wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I suggest a pause for thought. Not every decision has to be based on today's play.

Oh now why do you think that will matter one jot on here?

Things like facts are just an inconvenience to most.

Where's the harm in people saying who improved their chances for the tour and who didn't.  It's a discussion forum ffs

I called ford ordinary on this thread long before the six nations started.  

Farrell at 12 hides fords weaknesses in my opinion and I think Farrell is a superior player to him.

And in answer to Griffs post about who took their chances and who didn't I mentioned ford

Ford is excellent in a team with front foot ball and with a none who gives good service. Neither applied yesterday. In a match like yesterday's Farrell is far superior.

I have long thought Dan Robson was England's best scrum half and deserves a chance. Youngs showed all his old weaknesses yesterday and has been poor all season.

Except during the AI's when he was one of our best players.... His form is always somewhat confusing

There is no confusion with Dan Robsons form - he has consistently been the best SH all season. He needs to be given a chance - hopefully against Italy.

Just imagine that Scottish backline with a competitive pack

'Shudders'

Early days but I can see Marler playing himself into contention, I'd feel far more comfortable with him playing than Mako who would be a penalty machine against the All Blacks.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Early days but I can see Marler playing himself into contention, I'd feel far more comfortable with him playing than Mako who would be a penalty machine against the All Blacks.

Not so sure. They often scrum to get the ball back into play rather than sit with the ball at the base waiting for penalties.

Furlong & McGrath would be in prime position at the minute I'd imagine. The scrum is certainly an area we can attack with the AB's being pretty average in that department.

Scottrf wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Early days but I can see Marler playing himself into contention, I'd feel far more comfortable with him playing than Mako who would be a penalty machine against the All Blacks.

Not so sure. They often scrum to get the ball back into play rather than sit with the ball at the base waiting for penalties.

Even so I have absolutely no faith in Mako's scrummaging, the Irish pair should be starting and I'd much rather have the solidity of Marler coming on in a tight game.

Still baffled by the Hogg/Russell hyperbole but I'll try be objective as I know it's not a popular view on here!

Hogg - pretty good game, can't remember him making an error. Hit the line pretty well and his second try was very nice in particular.

Russell - has got a really nice pass and was impressed with his tenacity in defence. Overall thought he was pretty average as he put his team in trouble a few times by shipping on crappy ball. I still have the same reservations about him and his ability to manage a game. He's a good runner and good passer, but neither of those things mean he is doing them at the right time. Contrast to Duncan Weir who came on for a short time and immediately pinned Ireland right back. Given how much Scotland were struggling for territory and possession I felt that Russell should have done much more of this.

Overall, I've nothing against either player but I do wish people would stop getting their match analysis from the scoresheet. Hogg was pretty good, but actually in a game Scotland hardly had any ball he didn't actually have that many chances to shine, yet people are nailing on a lions 15 jersey after just 80 mins! It's easy to look and think 2 tries, he must have been great, but anyone runs the first in. Compared to Sean Maitland (who I thought was the best back on the field - saved 2/3 tries and was everywhere in defence and support) he's probably affected the scoreboard less. Maitland is forgotten about because you can't record or celebrate what he did as easily as tries.

*please note, I am not saying Weir is a better player than Russell. And I'm certainly not, dear god, advocating Duncan Weir for the lions.

Hogg did not surprise me at all, we all know he is world class with the ball in hand and he is like greased lightening. It's his decisions in defence that let him down, although that is always not noticed because of what he brings to the table in attack.

Leigh Halfpenny stopped that player Sergio Parisse gave the inside pass to dead when he was bearing down on our line, and he got a shiner under the eye for it, it's times like that when you see the values of an excelent full back.

Exiledinborders wrote:
Ford is excellent in a team with front foot ball and with a none who gives good service. Neither applied yesterday. In a match like yesterday's Farrell is far superior.

I have long thought Dan Robson was England's best scrum half and deserves a chance. Youngs showed all his old weaknesses yesterday and has been poor all season.

This is what I've said countless times regarding English players. It comes across as chippy and anti-English to those who want to believe the Eddie Jones hype, and think there's longevity to it, but dear me, sometimes it's useful to get an outside perspective.

1. The Lions will not have forward dominance in NZ. At best, parity at certain set pieces. At the breakdown, the likelihood is for periodic panic stations, particularly when the game opens up. Don't be fooled by fairweather players: they can be a luxury in such situations

2. A lot of English players' form- Ben Youngs as a prime example- was in part because of the team system and success of their pack, rather than that player suddenly becoming demonstrably better. Youngs was apparently in the form of his life last year, yet that's easy to have when your pack goes back to basics and dominates first and foremost at the 8 man game like they have the ability to. It's not a slight on Youngs, or England, as it's brought them success. But for the Lions- a very specific Lions opponent, too- you can't just rely on that alone.

3. I intended to go into the England game with an eye on Jonathan Joseph's defence. As I got caught up in what was a fairly gruelling match, I didn't pay close notice, however I also didn't see him be the 'best defensive 13' as he was called prior to the weekend. Indeed, a lot of breaks in the wide channels from France from Spedding and the wingers running loose ball back doesn't bode well for the Lions, as that's where NZ are most dangerous.

4. England are still favourites to win the 6Ns. No doubt. However, that is very different to what we're discussing here: who are the best players, and the best team, to counter NZ? It's a shame that this thread has become "my country's player is better than yours", and that's in part I think because it's an impossible job: no-one actually thinks we stand a cat's chance of beating the ABs. It's just bragging rights at this stage: "yeah, we lost, but at least our boys were the best losers, yours didnt even get picked!"

5. Players who can adapt, and play well on the back foot, will be highly valued. As will versatility. As will, it goes without saying, those rare players who can go toe to toe or better at getting front foot ball with the ABs. That's why Billy Vunipola is so important, a unique asset. Mako? I'm not sure if he's good enough in the scrum, but he could be too. Elliot Daly meets the versatile criteria. As a good, long range kicker- which will emphatically be the difference between winning and losing down in NZ, make no mistake- and real pace, outside Farrell, I think he's the most likely back to tour from the English team.

Anyway, good, interesting opening round of Rugby. Not everything rests on the weekend just gone, but this tournament as a whole will go a long way to determining the squad and team. England- for so long the front runners- have absolutely shot themselves in the foot this weekend, with few individuals showing they can flourish under pressure. Haskell and George probably trump those starting in their positions on their bench performances alone.

Scotland have done themselves no harm at all: periodic intensity, followed by a rock solid defence, great goal-kicking, and just gritting in there with the skin of their teeth. That's the Warrenball we'll see in NZ. Yes, it'll be a bit more structured, but they'll have licence to play out of necessity, before bringing the tempo back down. Other than the two wonderboys, I thought Maitland and Dunbar were excellent (I predicted Huw Jones would be something of a flop this 6Ns, and don't think he's in your best three centres, though I didn't think he'd be so poor straight away). I wrote a Lions hot/cold piece just after the AIs and put Laidlaw in as a third choice 9, midweek captain, and reliable short range goalkicker, without really believing it possible. I'm now not so sure. Webb and Murray are on the plane. But that 3rd place is up for grabs.

And with no bitterness to the Irish, I don't see how Devin Toner is in the same league as AWJ.

I'd be interested for you to point out his mistakes in tackling and positioning.

"I haven't watched him but don't think his defence is good."
"It is."
"OK I'll watch at the 6 Nations."
*England play France*
"Didn't get to watch his defence vs France but his defence seemed bad."

I think miaow has been on the catnip again.

LordDowlais wrote:Hogg did not surprise me at all, we all know he is world class with the ball in hand and he is like greased lightening. It's his decisions in defence that let him down, although that is always not noticed because of what he brings to the table in attack.

Leigh Halfpenny stopped that player Sergio Parisse gave the inside pass to dead when he was bearing down on our line, and he got a shiner under the eye for it, it's times like that when you see the values of an excelent full back.

Not sure I saw many errors from him in the Irish game

And there is a very big difference in tackling a No 8 running straight at you, than a flying wing one on one.

Not a slight on Halfpenny, as he always has been a very good defensive full back - brave and tough to beat

But I still don't get the negativity to Hogg

But then again, a lot of the comments are on the Hogg of the version of him 2 years ago

I am happy he is in my team and he is only 24 - YEAH

I must admit, I've seen little to suggest that Hogg is this supposed weakness in defence that gets constantly spouted on here. He's clearly the best FB in the NH by a distance an would grace every other Int side. Halfpenny is solid but offers very little in attack, it's not really a comparison currently.

miaow wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:
Ford is excellent in a team with front foot ball and with a none who gives good service. Neither applied yesterday. In a match like yesterday's Farrell is far superior.

I have long thought Dan Robson was England's best scrum half and deserves a chance. Youngs showed all his old weaknesses yesterday and has been poor all season.

This is what I've said countless times regarding English players. It comes across as chippy and anti-English to those who want to believe the Eddie Jones hype, and think there's longevity to it, but dear me, sometimes it's useful to get an outside perspective.

1. The Lions will not have forward dominance in NZ. At best, parity at certain set pieces. At the breakdown, the likelihood is for periodic panic stations, particularly when the game opens up. Don't be fooled by fairweather players: they can be a luxury in such situations

Why not? I think The Lions if they are any good will have forward dominance. the Ireland pack dominated NZ in both tests in Nov.

cascough wrote:Still baffled by the Hogg/Russell hyperbole but I'll try be objective as I know it's not a popular view on here!

Hogg - pretty good game, can't remember him making an error. Hit the line pretty well and his second try was very nice in particular.

Russell - has got a really nice pass and was impressed with his tenacity in defence. Overall thought he was pretty average as he put his team in trouble a few times by shipping on crappy ball. I still have the same reservations about him and his ability to manage a game. He's a good runner and good passer, but neither of those things mean he is doing them at the right time. Contrast to Duncan Weir who came on for a short time and immediately pinned Ireland right back. Given how much Scotland were struggling for territory and possession I felt that Russell should have done much more of this.

Overall, I've nothing against either player but I do wish people would stop getting their match analysis from the scoresheet. Hogg was pretty good, but actually in a game Scotland hardly had any ball he didn't actually have that many chances to shine, yet people are nailing on a lions 15 jersey after just 80 mins! It's easy to look and think 2 tries, he must have been great, but anyone runs the first in. Compared to Sean Maitland (who I thought was the best back on the field - saved 2/3 tries and was everywhere in defence and support) he's probably affected the scoreboard less. Maitland is forgotten about because you can't record or celebrate what he did as easily as tries.

*please note, I am not saying Weir is a better player than Russell. And I'm certainly not, dear god, advocating Duncan Weir for the lions.

If you are baffled by the hyperbole of Hogg, then there really is no chance - the best attacking fullback probably in the world at this time (and for the last 12 months. )

Defensive errors of old not really happening now (As you even comment).

You also say Scotland hardly got any ball - yet still manages to get 2 tries, tearing holes in the defence when he does - just look at how teams back away from him - they know he is dangerous - it sets defences and creates space for others too. He is currently in a rich vein of form

I would take every single pundit who now has him favourite for the 15 (Although not nailed on) as a fair indication - usually there is some debate


I would agree on Russell, and I think most Scots have been quite clear, they think he is pushing for a chance to tour (just to tour), but has weaknesses that he needs to show he can address during the 6 nations.

I do not think anyone has said he is nailed on for even touring yet -

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I've seen little to suggest that Hogg is this supposed weakness in defence that gets constantly spouted on here. He's clearly the best FB in the NH by a distance an would grace every other Int side. Halfpenny is solid but offers very little in attack, it's not really a comparison currently.

Hogg is way ahead of everyone else at this stage.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I've seen little to suggest that Hogg is this supposed weakness in defence that gets constantly spouted on here. He's clearly the best FB in the NH by a distance an would grace every other Int side. Halfpenny is solid but offers very little in attack, it's not really a comparison currently.

Hogg is way ahead of everyone else at this stage.

And he can play 10

(only joking - he really can't)

Scottrf wrote:"I don't think he's particularly suited defensively to the system the Lions will use in NZ, "
"HE'S THE BEST DEFENSIVE 13 IN EUROPE! ENGLAND WON THE GRAND SLAM, DON'T YOU KNOW!?"
"OK I'll keep a close eye on his defence during the 6 Nations. Perhaps he's better than I thought"
"AHA! YOU'VE ADMITTED TO BEING OPEN TO CHANGING YOUR MIND! THAT MEANS YOU'VE NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY!"
*England play France*
"Didn't specifically watch his defence as it was an engrossing game, that said England's defence in the wide channels was pretty poor at times."
"JOSEPH FOR THE LIONS!"

Fixed it for you

Chin up boys. Everything I've predicted about Eddie Jones being a Jose Mourinho flash-in-the-pan coach is going to come true. Might not happen this year, but the signs aren't promising...

Fair play that was a good retort.

14 game flash in the pan so far...

Riskysports wrote:I am happy he is in my team and he is only 24 - YEAH

Yes, and he will more than likely surpass all his competitors by the time the kid is 28. He has a very exciting future ahead of him.