6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yep, when France through Betsen deliberately targeted Wilkinson all game in 02, leading to France winning a game most thought they'd be thrashed in, that was clearly the tactic of a "loser"

Are you saying that he intentionally tried to injure Wilkinson?

Nope, but rattle him, definitely, which is what Glasgow tried to do to Murray. There's no evidence whatsoever anywhere that they intentionally tried to injure him. I just hope this bleating about a perfectly legitimate and legal tactic to target a key opposition player to disrupt the opposition's gameplan doesn't influence the ref too much, resulting in a spate of penalties for supposedly "late" tackles or some other imagined offence.

Illegal scrummaging or the breakdown interpretation are usually the topics when a side tries to influence the referee before a game, and the pre-match hype usually bears some fruit.

It matters not a jot whether Murray was 'targeted' or not in the past, however the picture of Strauss tackling his standing leg will be registered in the memory banks of officials just as much as supporters and as such might influence some outcomes. Referees will inevitably be looking more closely now at Murray being 'potentially' targeted so 50/50 calls are more likely to be penalised in his favour. Smart.

If Strauss hadn't given Murray the fuel, he couldn't have lit the fire so when the opposition hand you a gift like that it would be impolite not to accept it.

I think the general consensus is that what Glasgow did was within the laws - putting aside the debate on whether they should be or not - so what would the ref actually penalise him for?

Late hit maybe depending on his timing, but if the same incidents happen then by the letter of the law they shouldn't be penalised?

Sin é wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yep, when France through Betsen deliberately targeted Wilkinson all game in 02, leading to France winning a game most thought they'd be thrashed in, that was clearly the tactic of a "loser"

Are you saying that he intentionally tried to injure Wilkinson?

Nope, but rattle him, definitely, which is what Glasgow tried to do to Murray. There's no evidence whatsoever anywhere that they intentionally tried to injure him. I just hope this bleating about a perfectly legitimate and legal tactic to target a key opposition player to disrupt the opposition's gameplan doesn't influence the ref too much, resulting in a spate of penalties for supposedly "late" tackles or some other imagined offence.

Illegal scrummaging or the breakdown interpretation are usually the topics when a side tries to influence the referee before a game, and the pre-match hype usually bears some fruit.

It matters not a jot whether Murray was 'targeted' or not in the past, however the picture of Strauss tackling his standing leg will be registered in the memory banks of officials just as much as supporters and as such might influence some outcomes. Referees will inevitably be looking more closely now at Murray being 'potentially' targeted so 50/50 calls are more likely to be penalised in his favour. Smart.

If Strauss hadn't given Murray the fuel, he couldn't have lit the fire so when the opposition hand you a gift like that it would be impolite not to accept it.

I think the general consensus is that what Glasgow did was within the laws - putting aside the debate on whether they should be or not - so what would the ref actually penalise him for?

Late hit maybe depending on his timing, but if the same incidents happen then by the letter of the law they shouldn't be penalised?

I think there is a law about dangerous tackling. It maybe within the law, but it is regarded as dangerous and should be outlawed.

And god help who ever tackles him and he gets injured from it!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You can tackle a player in the act of kicking, surely? Otherwise a player could dummy-kick all the way to the try line and you wouldn't be able to touch him.

Sin é wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You can tackle a player in the act of kicking, surely? Otherwise a player could dummy-kick all the way to the try line and you wouldn't be able to touch him.

I think box kicking is different to kicking on the hoof, particularly when player is stationery and from behind him.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:We will have POM on the bench when you tire

POM is injured - though Conan or SOB are not bad options!

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:We will have POM on the bench when you tire

POM is injured - though Conan or SOB are not bad options!

Thanks for that.

Was he not in the original 40 man squad ???? (I was away when announced)
If he was Joe neglected to mention him in those not being available.

Anyway as said plenty of quality backrowers to call on

Munster captain O'Mahony has been ruled out with a hamstring injury and will have a scan to find out the extent of the injury.

"He will have a scan tonight as he is feeling a bit of tightness," Easterby explained.

"He's not overly concerned by it. In saying that, that tightness may turn into a slight strain or a tear. Once we get the results of the scan, we will certainly have a plan in place for him to return."

EWT Spoons wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You can tackle a player in the act of kicking, surely? Otherwise a player could dummy-kick all the way to the try line and you wouldn't be able to touch him.

I think box kicking is different to kicking on the hoof, particularly when player is stationery and from behind him.

Sorry I'm confused by this, who was behind Murray that tackled him, or is this just hypothetical?

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Shoulder on the hip.

Next please.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Shoulder on the hip.

Next please.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think the general consensus is that what Glasgow did was within the laws - putting aside the debate on whether they should be or not - so what would the ref actually penalise him for?

Late hit maybe depending on his timing, but if the same incidents happen then by the letter of the law they shouldn't be penalised?

Sin é wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You can tackle a player in the act of kicking, surely? Otherwise a player could dummy-kick all the way to the try line and you wouldn't be able to touch him.

I think box kicking is different to kicking on the hoof, particularly when player is stationery and from behind him.

Sorry I'm confused by this, who was behind Murray that tackled him, or is this just hypothetical?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:We will have POM on the bench when you tire

POM is injured - though Conan or SOB are not bad options!

Thanks for that.

Was he not in the original 40 man squad ???? (I was away when announced)
If he was Joe neglected to mention him in those not being available.

Anyway as said plenty of quality backrowers to call on

RDW_Scotland wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:My guess is we are going to put out a big back row. Ryan Wilson, Struass and CDP. Hamish Watson on the bench for when Ireland tire.

I'd put a lot of money on Barclay starting, and TBH I want him to start.

The Great Aukster wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think the general consensus is that what Glasgow did was within the laws - putting aside the debate on whether they should be or not - so what would the ref actually penalise him for?

Late hit maybe depending on his timing, but if the same incidents happen then by the letter of the law they shouldn't be penalised?

The referee adjudicated that Glasgow were within the Laws and there was no citing, yet there has been ongoing debate as to whether Murray was 'targeted' with 'cynical and dangerous' treatment. While that remains a live topic, then it has the potential to influence Officials. Referees may now consider the topic worthy of their attention which they wouldn't have done had it not gained a certain profile.

The "same incidents" can't happen again because the circumstances surrounding them have changed - not only different weather conditions, outcomes, players involved, etc. but also the post match reactions to the game. Precedent is only a factor in judgement not a universal diktat. The officials cannot shut themselves away in a jury room between games to avoid being prejudiced by media debate. It has already been seen following the controversial 'high tackle' guidelines being implemented in the Scarlets/Ulster game, that there was an immediate reaction and refinement of interpretation the following day.

So if there is a borderline late hit on Murray that could be judged either way - the outcome is arguably going to be more harshly judged that it was three weeks ago. Small margins.

We’ve played with each other for a few years now and I think we’re used to playing with each other now – we have built up relationships

George Carlin wrote:
Correct Aukster but the converse is also true.

The Glasgow forwards wanted to get inside Murray's head and have him looking over his shoulder.

Nobody can now deny that they've succeeded. I personally think it was a mistake for Murray to have come out to the press with this - he's shown that he can be got at. The All Blacks will have noticed that too, incidentally. I also don't understand the comments here that Glasgow were somehow playing outside the law for the whole match in the way that they targeted Murray but that they magically got away with it somehow.

Neither the referee, linesmen nor citing officers penalised, sanctioned or otherwise investigated any of the tackles on Murray. So they were all legally done. Simple.

Let's move on to the game, which should be a cracker. If Scotland can get any front foot ball, we're going to see Ireland's defence tested because that Scottish backline can score tries and for once (apart from our front row, which is a calamity) we have good players in form and with a plan that they are used to.

I think that Ireland will keep it tight and bore their way to a win by 2 scores.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I have three single tickets for sale for Saturday if anyone is interested. Face value at £66 each.

If you're interested, I can meet you at MF.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
Correct Aukster but the converse is also true.

The Glasgow forwards wanted to get inside Murray's head and have him looking over his shoulder.

Nobody can now deny that they've succeeded. I personally think it was a mistake for Murray to have come out to the press with this - he's shown that he can be got at. The All Blacks will have noticed that too, incidentally. I also don't understand the comments here that Glasgow were somehow playing outside the law for the whole match in the way that they targeted Murray but that they magically got away with it somehow.

Neither the referee, linesmen nor citing officers penalised, sanctioned or otherwise investigated any of the tackles on Murray. So they were all legally done. Simple.

Let's move on to the game, which should be a cracker. If Scotland can get any front foot ball, we're going to see Ireland's defence tested because that Scottish backline can score tries and for once (apart from our front row, which is a calamity) we have good players in form and with a plan that they are used to.

I think that Ireland will keep it tight and bore their way to a win by 2 scores.

I think Scotland fans a clutching at straws a little bit here. All teams look to put pressure on Murray, it is nothing new.

However, to do that you really are going to have to win the forward battle first particularly at the breakdown so that you can get past the Ireland backrows. Otherwise I cant see how Scotland will get to him.

Not that many teams have had much success against Ireland in this area except Argentina in the world cup. This is probably the best Ireland pack of all time that Scotland will be facing which isnt quite the same as playing against the Munster pack which only contributes 2 players.

The AB's really looked to target the breakdown in their second test against Ireland, they were extra physical and did improve in this area in the second test but still lost the breakdown battle.

As an Ireland fan I'm not worried at all about Murray being rattled.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
As an Ireland fan I'm not worried at all about Murray being rattled.

highland_scot wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I have three single tickets for sale for Saturday if anyone is interested. Face value at £66 each.

If you're interested, I can meet you at MF.

You've got mail...

IanBru wrote:Hardie and Du Preez released back to Edinburgh for Friday's match, so I'm expecting
6. Harley, 7. Wilson, 8. Strauss, 20. Watson

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Barclay on bench???

Brown starting then.

George Carlin wrote:
Fair enough Guns, but I have been watching rugby for 30 years and I have never heard a player speak to the press about how he was worried he would be hurt in a tackle.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. I have.

You are absolutely right that Ireland has real quality at the breakdown. I would go with 6. Stander 7. Vd Flier and 8. Heaslip. Nice balance to that.

Pete330v2 wrote:Thornley's Ireland selection for Saturday, he's rarely wrong.

Ireland possible v Scotland

R Kearney; K Earls, G Ringrose, R Henshaw, S Zebo; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best (capt), T Furlong; D Ryan, DToner; CJ Stander, S O’Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: N Scannell, C Healy, J Ryan, I Henderson, J van der Flier, K Marmion, I Keatley, T Bowe.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Thornley's Ireland selection for Saturday, he's rarely wrong.

Ireland possible v Scotland

R Kearney; K Earls, G Ringrose, R Henshaw, S Zebo; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best (capt), T Furlong; D Ryan, DToner; CJ Stander, S O’Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: N Scannell, C Healy, J Ryan, I Henderson, J van der Flier, K Marmion, I Keatley, T Bowe.

Trimble injury must be worse than I thought.

Bowe is a hell of a punt given his form